Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on July 26, 2011, 03:32:PM
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Prof' H. l. McDonnel was a leading bloodstain expert, who came to certain conclusions once he examined crime scene pictures taken of Sheila Caffell. (1) The fingers of Sheila's right hand were pressed against the non fatal neck wound soon after she was initially shot, (2) whoever killed her, shot her for a second time under the chin, (3) the person responsible for killing her, then placed the rifle on her body, and placed her hand on the gun - lets get some facts right before we go any further, (a) PC Bird did not take any pictures of Sheila, until after 10am, (b)when PS Adams viewed Sheila's body in the bedroom at about 9am, there was no gun on the body, (c) the gun that was eventually photographed on the body after 10am, had been spotted leaning against the bedroom window, by WPC Julia Jeapes (7.15am), so based upon the conclusions. Aforementioned, the only people who could have killed Sheila, if she did not take her own life, were the police - so, contrary to what Hartley has said on a different thread about there being no expert evidence to support anything I say, think again, because according to Prof' McDonnell's findings, the police are responsible for her death...
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Absolute crap.
Let people read the report and decide for themselves.
Here's a link to the thread containing the initial report:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,264.0.html
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Absolute crap.
Let people read the report and decide for themselves.
Here's a link to the thread containing the initial report:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,264.0.html
... The only one talking absolute crap is you - that report was made on the understanding that police found Sheila's body like that, he did not know police had stage managed it, beforehand (fact)...
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Erm yes okay Mike. So let me get this straight, you've tried to use the report to implicate the police, then when I point out that it says no such thing, you try to suggest the report is inaccurate?
As you please.
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Wow, isn't it absolutely astonishing what Prof. Herbert Leon McDonnel can conclude from viewing photos.
In fact it's almost unbelievable.
In fact it just absolutely frigging ridiculous.
If Prof. Herbert concluded all that from photos then his a right herbert!
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Hmmmm, you're not helping PB >:( ;)
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Not trying to help Harts .... just commenting on what Mike said Prof. Herb had concluded!
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Hmmmm, you're not helping PB >:( ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D You'd better remind him he's on your side Hartley.
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Both Jeremy Bamber and Essex Police are masters at the game of double bluff.
The former invites a blood pattern expert to look at photographs of his murder vicitm, on the off-chance that the expert might call it wrong and declare the victim a suicide.
The latter attempts to bury police logs forever (managing to reach a very respectable 18 years in the process) simply to hide a mistake that was by made due to an officer looking through a window...
It's hard to decide who is the best at this game. Jeremy bamber or Essex Police?
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One word: obtuse. ::)
You seem to have stopped looking at the evidence and started dribbling Rochy, I don't care if you have a different view, that's fine. But when you start posting things in support of JB (or against) which amount to nothing but commentry, I don't really know how to respond to it, or whether I even should. :-\
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Erm yes okay Mike. So let me get this straight, you've tried to use the report to implicate the police, then when I point out that it says no such thing, you try to suggest the report is inaccurate?
As you please.
... Police stage managed Sheila's body in the bedroom, PC Bird then took pictures, Prof' McDonnell then examined pictures and arrived at certain conclusions, based upon those pictures showing the position of Sheila's body undisturbed - which has serious implications on any findings. McDonnell concludes that whoever moved Sheila's hand from her neck to the gun killed her - work it out for yourself, who do you think moved her hand? Who do you think moved the gun from the window at 7.15am, onto the body? Why would PS Adams say he had no recollection of a gun being on Sheila's body, if there was a gun on the body at that time? Read McDonnells report and his findings, bearing in mind that he was deceived into believing those pictures represented how Sheila's body was found when the police first got into the farmhouse, not that the pictures only represented how Sheila's body ended up by 10 am, after police stage managed her body - the jury were also victims of the same deception, and as such, the convictions are unsafe and should be quashed...
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According to the book 'Blood Relations', page 314, Prof MacDonell wrote 'There is no question as to the manner of death of Sheila Caffell. She did not commit suicide but, like the other four victims, was shot dead by someone else.'
As I understand it the defence continue to claim that it was Sheila who commited the murders and then suicide. These claims would be consistent with the alleged telephone call from Nevill to Jeremy for which Jeremy advised the police 'Father phoned (Age 62) "Please come over your sister has gone crazy + has the gun" Phone went dead'
It should be noted, according to the book, the report from Prof MacDonell was paid for by the publishers of the book at Jeremy's request for being involved with the preparation of the book.
(It should be noted the book has transpired to be very accurate in terms of Jeremy's witness and suspect statements which have recently been made available on the forum)
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I thought the photographer in a statement which is available on the forum, confirms he moved Sheila's arm / hand in order to take a picture of the blood stain on her nightdress. The blood stain (some smudged finger marks) where being obscured by Sheila's arm for the purpose of the scene of crime photographs.
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One word: obtuse. ::)
You seem to have stopped looking at the evidence and started dribbling Rochy, I don't care if you have a different view, that's fine. But when you start posting things in support of JB (or against) which amount to nothing but commentry, I don't really know how to respond to it, or whether I even should. :-\
One problem with your arguments Hartley.....I have to keep consulting a dictionary when I read your posts. ???
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Sorry :-[
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Erm yes okay Mike. So let me get this straight, you've tried to use the report to implicate the police, then when I point out that it says no such thing, you try to suggest the report is inaccurate?
As you please.
... Police stage managed Sheila's body in the bedroom, PC Bird then took pictures, Prof' McDonnell then examined pictures and arrived at certain conclusions, based upon those pictures showing the position of Sheila's body undisturbed - which has serious implications on any findings. McDonnell concludes that whoever moved Sheila's hand from her neck to the gun killed her - work it out for yourself, who do you think moved her hand? Who do you think moved the gun from the window at 7.15am, onto the body? Why would PS Adams say he had no recollection of a gun being on Sheila's body, if there was a gun on the body at that time? Read McDonnells report and his findings, bearing in mind that he was deceived into believing those pictures represented how Sheila's body was found when the police first got into the farmhoure, not that the pictures only represented how Sheila's body ended up by 10 am, after police stage managed her body - the jury were also victims of the same deception, and as such, the convictions are unsafe and should be quashed...
No Mike, he doesn't, but I'm bored of repeating myself, I posted a link to his report above, people can make their own minds up. Also yet again though, you are using an unsubstantiated theory to prove an unsubstantiated theory, but it doesn't matter. Carry on.
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Sorry :-[
;D
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One word: obtuse. ::)
You seem to have stopped looking at the evidence and started dribbling Rochy, I don't care if you have a different view, that's fine. But when you start posting things in support of JB (or against) which amount to nothing but commentry, I don't really know how to respond to it, or whether I even should. :-\
I'll rephrase it for you.
The following are facts:
Jeremy Bamber is legally guilty of five murders.
Many believe he is genuinely cupable for the murders and/or actually committed them himself.
The prosecutions case is that he stage managed his sister's body to make it look like suicide.
He invited a blood pattern expert to examine crime scene photographs of this said sister, even though he killed her.
Essex Police / DPP concealed true extent of communications logs for 18 years. Or at least, they were aware of the content of such logs but continued to act as if the content of the logs was not important to the case nor needed to be seen by anyone else.
They have somehow managed to escape any further examination of this issue in a court, by relating the content of the logs to an error, caused by an officer mistaking the sex of a body when looking through a window.
I'm just pointing out that it's almost amusing that while Bamber asks a blood pattern expert to examine photographs of one of his victims, the police use a sledge hammer to crack a nut with regards to concealing a mistake. I wasn't trying to score points off you. I'm just asking the questions.. What should we believe is credible in this case? Where should we be reading inbetween the lines?
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Not trying to help Harts .... just commenting on what Mike said Prof. Herb had concluded!
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You are an idiot...
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Erm yes okay Mike. So let me get this straight, you've tried to use the report to implicate the police, then when I point out that it says no such thing, you try to suggest the report is inaccurate?
As you please.
... Police stage managed Sheila's body in the bedroom, PC Bird then took pictures, Prof' McDonnell then examined pictures and arrived at certain conclusions, based upon those pictures showing the position of Sheila's body undisturbed - which has serious implications on any findings. McDonnell concludes that whoever moved Sheila's hand from her neck to the gun killed her - work it out for yourself, who do you think moved her hand? Who do you think moved the gun from the window at 7.15am, onto the body? Why would PS Adams say he had no recollection of a gun being on Sheila's body, if there was a gun on the body at that time? Read McDonnells report and his findings, bearing in mind that he was deceived into believing those pictures represented how Sheila's body was found when the police first got into the farmhoure, not that the pictures only represented how Sheila's body ended up by 10 am, after police stage managed her body - the jury were also victims of the same deception, and as such, the convictions are unsafe and should be quashed...
No Mike, he doesn't, but I'm bored of repeating myself, I posted a link to his report above, people can make their own minds up. Also yet again though, you are using an unsubstantiated theory to prove an unsubstantiated theory, but it doesn't matter. Carry on.
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How did Shela's hand get from the side of her neck, onto the gun, in between shots, and back onto the gun in time for PC Bird to photograph it there? The triangular bloodstain on the upper right side of her nightdress got there as described by McDonnell...
Work it out for yourself...
Police did stage manage her body on the bedroom floor with the use of the riffle, and they put her hand upon the gun, and adjusted it at some point.
How many weapons were found in the main bedroom?
Shouldn't there have been two if Jeremy killed Sheila and stage managed her body to make it look like a suicide?
How come there is only reference to there being one gun in the bedroom>?
What happened to the rifle at the bedroom window that was seen there by WPC Jeapes at about 7:15am? Who moved it, surely not Jeremy, if so you need to explain how he got into the farmhouse after 7:15am, and moved the gun from the bedroom window? The only persons who could have moved it, were Sheila, or the police?
Or the police have lied about how many guns were found in the main bedroom?
If they have lied about that, why?
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The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.
If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.
This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.
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The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.
If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.
This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.
I concur..... I have definately read a statement made by the photograph confirming he moved Sheila's arm / hand etc.
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The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.
If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.
This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.
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Stop talking nonsense, the stage managing took place before SOCO were even allowed in the house,get your facts right, SOC were not allowed to take control of the scene until 10am, even though the police surgeon, DR Craig, certified death in Sheila's case at precisely 8:44am - so what were SOC doing in the interim period?
Oh, and yes, PC Bird did photograph the rifle at the bedroom window after it had been photographed on Sheila's body at a time before PS Woodcock said he moved it off the body - so, yes, after SOC took control of the scene, PC Bird did witness the movement of the gun from the body before PS Woodcock said he moved the gun from the body...
Whilst on the subject of PC Bird, he produced a false photographic record claiming that there were only 223 pictures taken in connection with this case, when all along there had been 358?
So, he lied, just like the rest of them, and he lied because he was part of the cover up, albeit only doing what he was told to do by senior officers who supervised and controlled the cover up...
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The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.
If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.
This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.
I concur..... I have definately read a statement made by the photograph confirming he moved Sheila's arm / hand etc.
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The main stage managing of Sheila's body took place before SOC took control of the scene at 10am, so any additional movement of the victims hand after they took control is/was irrelevant, since the damage had already been done long before SOC got into the house...
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The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.
If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.
This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.
I concur..... I have definately read a statement made by the photograph confirming he moved Sheila's arm / hand etc.
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The main stage managing of Sheila's body took place before SOC took control of the scene at 10am, so any additional movement of the victims hand after they took control is/was irrelevant, since the damage had already been done long before SOC got into the house...
Are you saying the photographs of Sheila's body are of no evidential value?
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I'm done Mike on this topic, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, then my previous comments convey my opinion very clearly.
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The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.
If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.
This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.
I concur..... I have definately read a statement made by the photograph confirming he moved Sheila's arm / hand etc.
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The main stage managing of Sheila's body took place before SOC took control of the scene at 10am, so any additional movement of the victims hand after they took control is/was irrelevant, since the damage had already been done long before SOC got into the house...
Are you saying the photographs of Sheila's body are of no evidential value?
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Trick question?
I am saying that the jury were led to believe that the pictures depicted how the bodies, including Sheila's, were found by the police who entered the farmhouse in the first instance at just after 7:30am, but none of the firearms team were called to court to testify that the position of the bodies was as they found them, when they first got into the house. The court was deceived, because all those pictures did, is confirm the position of the bodies as they were at just after 10am, that morning, and therefore, the court has been deceived by PC Birds falsified photographic album records, which claimed only 223 pictures had been taken in connection with the case, when all along 358 had been taken...
Several of the firearms officers told COLP during their 1991 interviews that they thought the bodies had been moved by reference to some of the crime scene pictures they were shown at a debriefing held at Witham police station on the evening of 7th August 1985...
Prof' McDonnell was also fooled by this feature of the case, and so have many many others...
The jury did not get to hear anything at all about this important evidence...
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I'm done Mike on this topic, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, then my previous comments convey my opinion very clearly.
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Your done because there is no picture which shows Ralph seated on one of the wooden chairs, although you claim there is such a photogragh...
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The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.
If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.
This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.
I concur..... I have definately read a statement made by the photograph confirming he moved Sheila's arm / hand etc.
If the police never stage manged SC body , why did not one of them say ' this body as been staged managed to look like suicide ' , they were experienced officer's , a gun does not come to lay in that position after a suicide , they never mentioned it because they stage managed the scene !!
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I'm done Mike on this topic, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, then my previous comments convey my opinion very clearly.
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Your done because there is no picture which shows Ralph seated on one of the wooden chairs, although you claim there is such a photogragh...
Yes that must be it. ::) Perhaps the photo which you yourself added a mote to describing Ralph as being in a sitting position is fabricated. ::)
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I'm done Mike on this topic, unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, then my previous comments convey my opinion very clearly.
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Your done because there is no picture which shows Ralph seated on one of the wooden chairs, although you claim there is such a photogragh...
Yes that must be it. ::) Perhaps the photo which you yourself added a mote to describing Ralph as being in a sitting position is fabricated. ::)
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You are a complete idiot...
I said that his body was frozen in a sitting position by rigor mortis...
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Just out of interest, why do you start with the name calling when your weird off the wall theories are questioned? Very strange, but if the cap fits. ::)
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Just out of interest, why do you start with the name calling when your weird off the wall theories are questioned? Very strange, but if the cap fits. ::)
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You are the weirdo...
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Just out of interest, why do you start with the name calling when your weird off the wall theories are questioned? Very strange, but if the cap fits. ::)
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You are the weirdo...
I thought this was a civilised forum with no name calling. ::)
As we say here: this is Mike´s forum - he even pays for it himself and never asks for donations as far as I know. He can do and say what he wants. If you don´t like it, no one is forcing you to stay. ;)
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Just out of interest, why do you start with the name calling when your weird off the wall theories are questioned? Very strange, but if the cap fits. ::)
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You are the weirdo...
I thought this was a civilised forum with no name calling. ::)
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Just out of interest, why do you start with the name calling when your weird off the wall theories are questioned? Very strange, but if the cap fits. ::)
The theories are not weird or off the wall. Why does everything have to occur in a linear, simple, straightforward manner, in which there are no such things as bungled raids or police corruption?
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Well done Mike you just passed the 5000 post mark. Jeremy must be very proud of the dedication you show on his behalf.
How many posts do you think you will get to before he is freed?
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Well done Mike you just passed the 5000 post mark. Jeremy must be very proud of the dedication you show on his behalf.
How many posts do you think you will get to before he is freed?
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DS Jones was / is a crook, he falsified the contents of the above pocketbook to incorporate the evidence of the silencer, and the roles played by the relatives and Mugford - he recorded all the lies in his forged pocketbook - where are the original notes that were substituted?
Senior police officers allowed Jones to falsify this pocketbook, and to write up in it all the false evidence about the finding of the silencer by the relatives, and Mugfords contribution...
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Well done Mike you just passed the 5000 post mark. Jeremy must be very proud of the dedication you show on his behalf.
How many posts do you think you will get to before he is freed?
This is just unnecessary, you are mainly here to provoke, aren't you. Thumbs down.
Congrats, Mike!
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Well done Mike you just passed the 5000 post mark. Jeremy must be very proud of the dedication you show on his behalf.
How many posts do you think you will get to before he is freed?
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DS Jones was / is a crook, he falsified the contents of the above pocketbook to incorporate the evidence of the silencer, and the roles played by the relatives and Mugford - he recorded all the lies in his forged pocketbook - where are the original notes that were substituted?
Senior police officers allowed Jones to falsify this pocketbook, and to write up in it all the false evidence about the finding of the silencer by the relatives, and Mugfords contribution...
Absolute tosh, he did no such thing.
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He falsified his pocketbook entries relating to the silencer, relatives and Mugford, and senior officers knew he had re-written his notes in a pocketbook (49) which had been issued to him, five months previously, which even contained the official Essex police stamp, dated, 5th November 1984 - senior officers are responsible for checking pocketbooks of lower ranked police officers such as DS Jones, so how did he get away with it?
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Well done Mike you just passed the 5000 post mark. Jeremy must be very proud of the dedication you show on his behalf.
How many posts do you think you will get to before he is freed?
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DS Jones was / is a crook, he falsified the contents of the above pocketbook to incorporate the evidence of the silencer, and the roles played by the relatives and Mugford - he recorded all the lies in his forged pocketbook - where are the original notes that were substituted?
Senior police officers allowed Jones to falsify this pocketbook, and to write up in it all the false evidence about the finding of the silencer by the relatives, and Mugfords contribution...
Absolute tosh, he did no such thing.
.......
He falsified his pocketbook entries relating to the silencer, relatives and Mugford, and senior officers knew he had re-written his notes in a pocketbook (49) which had been issued to him, five months previously, which even contained the official Essex police stamp, dated, 5th November 1984 - senior officers are responsible for checking pocketbooks of lower ranked police officers such as DS Jones, so how did he get away with it?
Pure fantasy me Lord!
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The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.
If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.
This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.
So do we have two photographs with sheila's arm in these different positions? Also why would they want to photograph the blood staining. I thought all police photos were of the crime scene as it is?
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The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.
If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.
This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.
So do we have two photographs with sheila's arm in these different positions? Also why would they want to photograph the blood staining. I thought all police photos were of the crime scene as it is?
Yes, the ones which were superimposed and submitted to the ccrc, but the witness statements explaining the movement were not advertised on this forum. That is why we had the comment from the ccrc that the photographs were not as strong as the witness statements.
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The police did not stage manage anything, they moved the rifle to photograph blood staining, that is why there are photographs of each. You work it out. Our friendly photographer turns up, snap, snap, snap, can you move that please, thanks snap. As per the witness statements.
If they stage managed, Bird must have been in on it right? Due to the different positions photographed right? No, if they stage managed it they would have done so prior to the photographs being taken, not decide to do so half way through.
This is weak, very,very weak. Good luck with that.
So do we have two photographs with sheila's arm in these different positions? Also why would they want to photograph the blood staining. I thought all police photos were of the crime scene as it is?
Yes, the ones which were superimposed and submitted to the ccrc, but the witness statements explaining the movement were not advertised on this forum. That is why we had the comment from the ccrc that the photographs were not as strong as the witness statements.
Wasn't that because all the police officers swore on oath that they didn't move the body?
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No, their witness statements clearly explained why, it's Mike playing games, at the time I hadn't seen the statements which describe the movement.
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No, their witness statements clearly explained why, it's Mike playing games, at the time I hadn't seen the statements which describe the movement.
Oh I see. No I haven't either. Do you have them Hartley?
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No, their witness statements clearly explained why, it's Mike playing games, at the time I hadn't seen the statements which describe the movement.
Oh I see. No I haven't either. Do you have them Hartley?
Yes they are in my library thread.