Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on July 25, 2011, 05:31:PM
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The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistant with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...
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The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistent with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...
Surely with that logic it would place the time of death at some point before 7:37am. ???
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
You really need to educate your self. Please read my response to you on the 'banner' thread. Rope is nearly at the end of its coil here.
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I remember reading " when the police entered the kitchen the second time they found that the female dead body and gun had gone walkabout" whereupon the police did a panic and blocked the door to the stairs and waited for back-up. Is this correct?
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
I don't think we can use the word "proven". Proven is a very strong word. He was found guilty by a 10 to 2 jury. Just as unless there is absolute proof that he is innocent, if he was found not guilty by an appeal court he would not be proven innocent.
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The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistant with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...
Mike, what times of death were given for the other dead people?
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
PB - Once again, how does your statement above, repeated in various forms in your posts, advance the debate here in any way? Are you trying to test the patience of the moderators so that in the end they ban you? You certainly give that impression in your posts and I do not understand what you would gain out of that. Why not accept the invitation which has been extended to you and join in the debate in a constructive way? You can express your views forcefully and point out weaknesses you see in the arguments of others. However your current posts just seem to waste the time of forum members with endless repetition of your view of Bamber and attempts to wind up other forum members.
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
PB - Once again, how does your statement above, repeated in various forms in your posts, advance the debate here in any way? Are you trying to test the patience of the moderators so that in the end they ban you? You certainly give that impression in your posts and I do not understand what you would gain out of that. Why not accept the invitation which has been extended to you and join in the debate in a constructive way? You can express your views forcefully and point out weaknesses you see in the arguments of others. However your current posts just seem to waste the time of forum members with endless repetition of your view of Bamber and attempts to wind up other forum members.
I know it's Mike's forum but calling something official when it is certainly not is very misleading and I refuted it. What is wrong with that.
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The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistant with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...
Mike, what times of death were given for the other dead people?
Grahame
The normal practice would have been for a Home Office pathologist to visit the scene as soon as possible and certainly before the bodies were removed to the mortuary. A pathologist would have taken details of body temperature and noted other features which would have enabled to give an approximate time of death in each case. For some reason that procedure was not followed here, and a police surgeon (i.e. an ordinary GP on the list approved for police work) was brought in simply to certify the fact of death. The time he recorded in each case was the time he certified the fact that the person was dead rather than the time he believed the person had died. By the time the pathologist carried out the post mortem examinations it was too late for any realistic assessment of the time of death to be made.
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
PB - Once again, how does your statement above, repeated in various forms in your posts, advance the debate here in any way? Are you trying to test the patience of the moderators so that in the end they ban you? You certainly give that impression in your posts and I do not understand what you would gain out of that. Why not accept the invitation which has been extended to you and join in the debate in a constructive way? You can express your views forcefully and point out weaknesses you see in the arguments of others. However your current posts just seem to waste the time of forum members with endless repetition of your view of Bamber and attempts to wind up other forum members.
I know it's Mike's forum but calling something official when it is certainly not is very misleading and I refuted it. What is wrong with that.
So are you saying Sheila was found at 7.37am? because that places her found upon entry... in the kitchen. We are still waiting for you to debate an attachment?
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
PB - Once again, how does your statement above, repeated in various forms in your posts, advance the debate here in any way? Are you trying to test the patience of the moderators so that in the end they ban you? You certainly give that impression in your posts and I do not understand what you would gain out of that. Why not accept the invitation which has been extended to you and join in the debate in a constructive way? You can express your views forcefully and point out weaknesses you see in the arguments of others. However your current posts just seem to waste the time of forum members with endless repetition of your view of Bamber and attempts to wind up other forum members.
I know it's Mike's forum but calling something official when it is certainly not is very misleading and I refuted it. What is wrong with that.
PB - nothing is wrong with that and I accept that it is legitimate debate. However the part I was drawing attention to was the comment I highlighted in blue in my post above. What does that add to the debate?
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pb whatever evidence that JB was guilty, there was plenty of evidence to the contrary!
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The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistant with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...
Mike, what times of death were given for the other dead people?
Grahame
The normal practice would have been for a Home Office pathologist to visit the scene as soon as possible and certainly before the bodies were removed to the mortuary. A pathologist would have taken details of body temperature and noted other features which would have enabled to give an approximate time of death in each case. For some reason that procedure was not followed here, and a police surgeon (i.e. an ordinary GP on the list approved for police work) was brought in simply to certify the fact of death. The time he recorded in each case was the time he certified the fact that the person was dead rather than the time he believed the person had died. By the time the pathologist carried out the post mortem examinations it was too late for any realistic assessment of the time of death to be made.
So this is another thing which could have cleared Jeremy if done properly. But because things were not carried out by the book this evidence was not much use to the defence or the prosecution in court? So one thing after another was not done correctly?
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The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistant with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...
Mike, what times of death were given for the other dead people?
Grahame
The normal practice would have been for a Home Office pathologist to visit the scene as soon as possible and certainly before the bodies were removed to the mortuary. A pathologist would have taken details of body temperature and noted other features which would have enabled to give an approximate time of death in each case. For some reason that procedure was not followed here, and a police surgeon (i.e. an ordinary GP on the list approved for police work) was brought in simply to certify the fact of death. The time he recorded in each case was the time he certified the fact that the person was dead rather than the time he believed the person had died. By the time the pathologist carried out the post mortem examinations it was too late for any realistic assessment of the time of death to be made.
So this is another thing which could have cleared Jeremy if done properly. But because things were not carried out by the book this evidence was not much use to the defence or the prosecution in court? So one thing after another was not done correctly?
Grahame - you are quite right. It is another example of the way the police made a completely botched job of the case right from the outset. This particular error of judgement meant that there is no definitive evidence of the time of death (there is the evidence of the Italian Professors in relation to Sheila but they were working solely from photographs so were severely hampered in the assessment they could make) and this is evidence which could have been very helpful to the defence.
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
PB - Once again, how does your statement above, repeated in various forms in your posts, advance the debate here in any way? Are you trying to test the patience of the moderators so that in the end they ban you? You certainly give that impression in your posts and I do not understand what you would gain out of that. Why not accept the invitation which has been extended to you and join in the debate in a constructive way? You can express your views forcefully and point out weaknesses you see in the arguments of others. However your current posts just seem to waste the time of forum members with endless repetition of your view of Bamber and attempts to wind up other forum members.
I know it's Mike's forum but calling something official when it is certainly not is very misleading and I refuted it. What is wrong with that.
PB - nothing is wrong with that and I accept that it is legitimate debate. However the part I was drawing attention to was the comment I highlighted in blue in my post above. What does that add to the debate?
Fair enough ... please ignore fog and leave it as just misleading.
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The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistent with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...
Surely with that logic it would place the time of death at some point before 7:37am. ???
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The only official lawful time of death in Sheila's case was given by Dr Craig at the scene, timed at 8:44am, in the bedroom at whf...
The reference to the finding of "two dead bodies" upon entry to the kitchen, one dead male, one dead female, at 7:37am, does not constitute an official time of death in accordance with the law, because nobody has put their name or identity to those comments...
Obviously...
If two dead bodies were found in the kitchen upon entry, timed at 7:37am and later, then if this be the case, then Sheila or June would have had to be dead in the kitchen, before 8:44am...
As far as I know, only a doctor can give a time of death, unless other evidence exists to show that a particular person died at a particular point in time, for example, by eye witness account etc...
One has to wonder if the "officers report" which refers to the shooting incident in the kitchen, has got anything at all to do with the timing of the alleged females death in the kitchen, timed at 7:37am? Until the contents of that report are disclosed, there is no evidence to prove that there was a dead female in the kitchen, since she was obviously not dead, and still very much alive, so much so, that she managed to get upstairs into the bedroom after 8:10am, and thereafter she died as a result of being shot fatally under the chin...
According to DR Craig, he verified that Sheila Caffell was dead in the bedroom at precisely 8:44am, by reference to a solitary shot in the throat - he did not see nor report a second wound to the neck, and therefore could not have taken such a second wound into account when officially pronouncing her as being dead - what they implies is that if Sheila did have a second wound on her neck at the time Dr Craig confirmed Sheila as being dead, he was not saying that she died from this second wound because he makes no reference at all to it, and consequently, Sheila could not have been the Dead female found in the kitchen, but she could still have been the female being referred to?
As I say...
The only way Sheila could have been confirmed to be dead in the kitchen, at 7:37am and 7:38am, onwards, was if there was an "eye witness account" to Sheila shooting herself dead in the kitchen, to which the "officers report" which has not been disclosed could obviously relate...
The reason it has not been disclosed, is because the police wrongly assumed that Sheila had taken her own life in the kitchen as the armed officers commenced their approach to enter the farmhouse, and because she did not actually die there in the kitchen, the officers report and its contents have been suppressed because its contents are not factual, and what is more, the contents prove that Jeremy Bamber did not shoot and kill Sheila in the bedroom by use of the silencer and gun, and he did not stage manage Sheila's body there to make it look like o appear as though she had killed the others and then taken her own life...
In my view...
An application to the high court could be made for the disclosure of the said officers report to be disclosed, because its contents would tend to prove beyond question that Jeremy Bamber could not / did not kill Sheila in the bedroom, and he could not have used the silencer on the gun to shoot and kill her there, and it would expose all this nonsense about the blood in the silencer proving that Jeremy took the silencer off the gun after he killed Sheila in the bedroom, and he took it and hid it in the gun cupboard downstairs before stage managing her body to make it look like she took her own life...
Obtaining a copy of that officers report, will serve to prove once and for all that Jeremy Bamber is innocent, if I am wrong, its production might help to prove that he did it - so, why are the contents being withheld?
Bring it on...
Lets get to the truth...
The only official time of death was the one given by the police surgeon, Dr Craig, at the scene, timed at 8:44am - and the police and the prosecution have failed to prove that she was dead any sooner than that time, and therefore, Jeremy Bambers conviction for her death is invalidated, since Jeremy was in th company of police officers at the scene from 3:52am, and therefore, he could not be responsible for killing her......
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Yes, anyway, we know two bodies were not found in the kitchen, it was Nevills body mistaken as a female, as is documented in the firearms units statement.
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
I don't think we can use the word "proven". Proven is a very strong word. He was found guilty by a 10 to 2 jury. Just as unless there is absolute proof that he is innocent, if he was found not guilty by an appeal court he would not be proven innocent.
I totally agree, Grahame. Well said +1
'Guilty' and 'proven' in my book only happen following a fair trial. Jeremy Bamber has never had a fair trial or a fair Appeal. That's a basic human right and Jeremy cannot be denied it forever, as much as some people with vested interests would love to deny this to him and to keep him in prison.
Get used to it all of you who want Jeremy to rot in prison, it's not going to happen. Jeremy Bamber will have a fair hearing at Appeal and you are just going to have to live with that.
Justice will be done!
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The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistent with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...
Surely with that logic it would place the time of death at some point before 7:37am. ???
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The only official lawful time of death in Sheila's case was given by Dr Craig at the scene, timed at 8:44am, in the bedroom at whf...
The reference to the finding of "two dead bodies" upon entry to the kitchen, one dead male, one dead female, at 7:37am, does not constitute an official time of death in accordance with the law, because nobody has put their name or identity to those comments...
Obviously...
If two dead bodies were found in the kitchen upon entry, timed at 7:37am and later, then if this be the case, then Sheila or June would have had to be dead in the kitchen, before 8:44am...
As far as I know, only a doctor can give a time of death, unless other evidence exists to show that a particular person died at a particular point in time, for example, by eye witness account etc...
One has to wonder if the "officers report" which refers to the shooting incident in the kitchen, has got anything at all to do with the timing of the alleged females death in the kitchen, timed at 7:37am? Until the contents of that report are disclosed, there is no evidence to prove that there was a dead female in the kitchen, since she was obviously not dead, and still very much alive, so much so, that she managed to get upstairs into the bedroom after 8:10am, and thereafter she died as a result of being shot fatally under the chin...
According to DR Craig, he verified that Sheila Caffell was dead in the bedroom at precisely 8:44am, by reference to a solitary shot in the throat - he did not see nor report a second wound to the neck, and therefore could not have taken such a second wound into account when officially pronouncing her as being dead - what they implies is that if Sheila did have a second wound on her neck at the time Dr Craig confirmed Sheila as being dead, he was not saying that she died from this second wound because he makes no reference at all to it, and consequently, Sheila could not have been the Dead female found in the kitchen, but she could still have been the female being referred to?
As I say...
The only way Sheila could have been confirmed to be dead in the kitchen, at 7:37am and 7:38am, onwards, was if there was an "eye witness account" to Sheila shooting herself dead in the kitchen, to which the "officers report" which has not been disclosed could obviously relate...
The reason it has not been disclosed, is because the police wrongly assumed that Sheila had taken her own life in the kitchen as the armed officers commenced their approach to enter the farmhouse, and because she did not actually die there in the kitchen, the officers report and its contents have been suppressed because its contents are not factual, and what is more, the contents prove that Jeremy Bamber did not shoot and kill Sheila in the bedroom by use of the silencer and gun, and he did not stage manage Sheila's body there to make it look like o appear as though she had killed the others and then taken her own life...
In my view...
An application to the high court could be made for the disclosure of the said officers report to be disclosed, because its contents would tend to prove beyond question that Jeremy Bamber could not / did not kill Sheila in the bedroom, and he could not have used the silencer on the gun to shoot and kill her there, and it would expose all this nonsense about the blood in the silencer proving that Jeremy took the silencer off the gun after he killed Sheila in the bedroom, and he took it and hid it in the gun cupboard downstairs before stage managing her body to make it look like she took her own life...
Obtaining a copy of that officers report, will serve to prove once and for all that Jeremy Bamber is innocent, if I am wrong, its production might help to prove that he did it - so, why are the contents being withheld?
Bring it on...
Lets get to the truth...
The only official time of death was the one given by the police surgeon, Dr Craig, at the scene, timed at 8:44am - and the police and the prosecution have failed to prove that she was dead any sooner than that time, and therefore, Jeremy Bambers conviction for her death is invalidated, since Jeremy was in th company of police officers at the scene from 3:52am, and therefore, he could not be responsible for killing her......
Well said, Mike. +1 Yes, let's get to the truth, bring it on! And let's get justice for Jeremy - a fair hearing at long last - after 25 years of fighting for justice.
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
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8:44am, is the official lawful time of death recorded in connection with Sheila Caffells death, no other time of death was / is established...
If you or anybody else knows of a different time of death, please be so kind as to let me know because i will then look into the matter as thoroughly as I can and report back...
Being sarcastic does you no favors...
Female body found at and from 7:37am, which was reported as being dead, was obviously not dead, and after 8:10am, that female managed to get upstairs into the bedroom where her life was brought to a conclusion by way of a solitary shot under the chin, that Jeremy Bamber, nor any would be as yet unidentified hit man could have been responsible for inflicting...
As I understand it, a doctor can pronounce the time of death, and based on eye witness evidence, where the taking of ones own life is witnessed by another, details of such observations may be taken into account to pinpoint as accurately as possible, the time when the deceased took their own life - in this respect, the contents of the officers report relating to the shooting incident downstairs, which has so far not been disclosed, could be evidence to confirm that Sheila was found downstiars upon entry to the kitchen by the police, who mistakenly presumed she had taken her own life as a result of the shot to the side of the neck...
I do not know which comics you have been reading, but there is no absolute evidence that Jeremy Bamber killed anyone...
The only official time of death in Sheila's case, is/was 8:44am, so get your facts right...
The pathologist did not give a precise time of death in Sheila's case (again get your facts right) he conducted the autopsy on the body of Ralph Bamber first commencing at 3pm, and by the time he got around to performing the autopsy on Sheila, he said that death in her case was consistent with her having died several hours beforehand - now it should be clear to all concerned that if the pathologist commenced the autopsy on the body of Sheila at around 4 - 4.30pm, on 7th August 1985, that any reference to her death having occurred several hours beforehand, would not take the timing of her death much sooner if at all, to before the time given by the police surgeon, Dr Craig, who pronounced her death at 8:44am...
About nine hours had elapsed since the time (8:44am) when DR Craig pronounced Sheila as being dead at the scene, and the time when the pathologist conducted the autopsy on the body of Sheila Caffell, and his reference to her death having occurred several hours beforehand, is consistent with Sheila having died in the bedroom, around the time that Dr Craig pronounced her as being dead by way of, or as a result of one solitary wound under the chin...
Get the facts right...
Jeremy could not have killed Sheila in the bedroom and be responsible for all the other nonsense at around 8:44am? (9 hours)
If Sheila had died at 7:44am, it would have been 10 hours prior to the time the pathologist conducted the autopsy on Sheila, and pronouncing that she had died several hours beforehand?
6:44am - 11 hours)
5:44am - 12 hours/ half a day
4:44am - 13 hours
3:44am - 14 hours
Look at these statistics, do you honestly expect me or anybody else to believe that the pathologists conclusions, that Sheila had died several hours before the time he carried out the autopsy upon her corpse, could be a reference to her having died any sooner than 8:44am in that bedroom at whf?
How long is one hour?
How long is a couple of hours>
How long is a few hours?
How long are several hours?
How long is half a day?
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
PB - Once again, how does your statement above, repeated in various forms in your posts, advance the debate here in any way? Are you trying to test the patience of the moderators so that in the end they ban you? You certainly give that impression in your posts and I do not understand what you would gain out of that. Why not accept the invitation which has been extended to you and join in the debate in a constructive way? You can express your views forcefully and point out weaknesses you see in the arguments of others. However your current posts just seem to waste the time of forum members with endless repetition of your view of Bamber and attempts to wind up other forum members.
Good points, ngb, +1 I totally agree with you. PB has nothing to gain from personal attacks and everything to gain from joining in constructive and respectful debate with us.
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The only official time of death in the case of Sheila Caffell was/is 8.44am - this is/was consistant with her body being the female found in the kitchen at/from 7.37am, and there only being three further bodies upstairs, by 8.10am...
Mike, what times of death were given for the other dead people?
Grahame
The normal practice would have been for a Home Office pathologist to visit the scene as soon as possible and certainly before the bodies were removed to the mortuary. A pathologist would have taken details of body temperature and noted other features which would have enabled to give an approximate time of death in each case. For some reason that procedure was not followed here, and a police surgeon (i.e. an ordinary GP on the list approved for police work) was brought in simply to certify the fact of death. The time he recorded in each case was the time he certified the fact that the person was dead rather than the time he believed the person had died. By the time the pathologist carried out the post mortem examinations it was too late for any realistic assessment of the time of death to be made.
Another excellent post ngb.
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pb whatever evidence that JB was guilty, there was plenty of evidence to the contrary!
Exactly, Haughton +1
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Yes, anyway, we know two bodies were not found in the kitchen, it was Nevills body mistaken as a female, as is documented in the firearms units statement.
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No, you are wrong, there were two bodies found downstairs in the kitchen when the police first entered - as evidenced and cross referenced by the contents of the police logs which only report the finding of three further bodies upstairs by 8:10am...
It is this part of the conspiracy where the police made a pigs ear of it, by failing to alter the references to the number of bodies that would have been found upstairs, if there had been some sort of a mix up downstiars involving only one body...
The police put together a cover story to try and account for Sheila's body not originally being found downstairs, but overlooked the importance of establishing that there should have been four bodies found upstairs, instead of only three...
Furthermore...
If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that internal kitchen door, nobody would have been able to see his body there because of the acuteness of the angle to mistakenly identify it as a dead female, I know this to be true because I have been to the window and looked through and the angle is too acute...
To settle this matter once and for all...
Go to WHF, position one of the wooden chairs behind the door in question and sit someone in it. The go out side and take a photograph to prove what can be seen?
Whilst your at it, get somebody to stand outside the kitchen window, whilst somebody who is sat in that chair behind the door takes a photograph showing the angle and view, looking back in the direction of the said kitchen window...
Do it, and prove to me that you are right and I am wrong...
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
You really need to educate your self. Please read my response to you on the 'banner' thread. Rope is nearly at the end of its coil here.
What a wonderful desciption, Rocky: Rope is nearly at the end of its coil here. I like that and I second it. +1
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Yes, anyway, we know two bodies were not found in the kitchen, it was Nevills body mistaken as a female, as is documented in the firearms units statement.
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No, you are wrong, there were two bodies found downstairs in the kitchen when the police first entered - as evidenced and cross referenced by the contents of the police logs which only report the finding of three further bodies upstairs by 8:10am...
It is this part of the conspiracy where the police made a pigs ear of it, by failing to alter the references to the number of bodies that would have been found upstairs, if there had been some sort of a mix up downstiars involving only one body...
The police put together a cover story to try and account for Sheila's body not originally being found downstairs, but overlooked the importance of establishing that there were four bodies found upstiars, instead of only three...
Furhjermore...
If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that intrenal kitrchen door, nobody would have been able to see his body there because of the acuteness of the angle to mistakenly identify it as a dead female, I know this to be true because I have been to the window and looked through and the angle is too acute...
To settle this matter once and for all...
Go to WHF, position one of the wooden chairs behind the door in question and sit someone in it. The go out side and take a photograph to prove what can be seen?
Whilst your at it, get somebody to stand outside the kitchen window, whilst somebody who is sat in that chair behind the door takes a photograph showing the angle and view, looking back in the direction of the said kitchen window...
Do it, and prove to me that you are right and I am wrong...
Good post, Mike. Can't +1 you again yet, so will have to owe you one.
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Yes, anyway, we know two bodies were not found in the kitchen, it was Nevills body mistaken as a female, as is documented in the firearms units statement.
------------------
No, you are wrong, there were two bodies found downstairs in the kitchen when the police first entered - as evidenced and cross referenced by the contents of the police logs which only report the finding of three further bodies upstairs by 8:10am...
It is this part of the conspiracy where the police made a pigs ear of it, by failing to alter the references to the number of bodies that would have been found upstairs, if there had been some sort of a mix up downstiars involving only one body...
The police put together a cover story to try and account for Sheila's body not originally being found downstairs, but overlooked the importance of establishing that there should have been four bodies found upstairs, instead of only three...
Furthermore...
If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that internal kitchen door, nobody would have been able to see his body there because of the acuteness of the angle to mistakenly identify it as a dead female, I know this to be true because I have been to the window and looked through and the angle is too acute...
To settle this matter once and for all...
Go to WHF, position one of the wooden chairs behind the door in question and sit someone in it. The go out side and take a photograph to prove what can be seen?
Whilst your at it, get somebody to stand outside the kitchen window, whilst somebody who is sat in that chair behind the door takes a photograph showing the angle and view, looking back in the direction of the said kitchen window...
Do it, and prove to me that you are right and I am wrong...
I think you are wrong, doesn't matter how many times you or I repeat ourselves, in order your theory to be correct, not only do we have to discount the various police officers statements, but we also have place Nevill right in the corner, despite the fact he was found in front of the aga. We can go further amd say if Shiela was in the kitchen, then we are missing a bullet case, so you need to introduce another weapon, an air rifle this time, but theres no record of any of Shielas blood and the blood stain patterns do not match her walking through a house full of police officers unseen.
It is much more likely that on their open mic radio sysyem, Collins called one dead female seen through the window, then upon entry they find Ralph and call in one dead male, they then go upstairs and find four bodies, they call in five bodies in total, the information room mistakenly think that two bodies have already been found, wrongly note that a further three bodies are found upstairs instead of four.
I put it to you that my interpretation is a hundred times more plausable than yours.
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Yes, anyway, we know two bodies were not found in the kitchen, it was Nevills body mistaken as a female, as is documented in the firearms units statement.
------------------
No, you are wrong, there were two bodies found downstairs in the kitchen when the police first entered - as evidenced and cross referenced by the contents of the police logs which only report the finding of three further bodies upstairs by 8:10am...
It is this part of the conspiracy where the police made a pigs ear of it, by failing to alter the references to the number of bodies that would have been found upstairs, if there had been some sort of a mix up downstiars involving only one body...
The police put together a cover story to try and account for Sheila's body not originally being found downstairs, but overlooked the importance of establishing that there should have been four bodies found upstairs, instead of only three...
Furthermore...
If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that internal kitchen door, nobody would have been able to see his body there because of the acuteness of the angle to mistakenly identify it as a dead female, I know this to be true because I have been to the window and looked through and the angle is too acute...
To settle this matter once and for all...
Go to WHF, position one of the wooden chairs behind the door in question and sit someone in it. The go out side and take a photograph to prove what can be seen?
Whilst your at it, get somebody to stand outside the kitchen window, whilst somebody who is sat in that chair behind the door takes a photograph showing the angle and view, looking back in the direction of the said kitchen window...
Do it, and prove to me that you are right and I am wrong...
I think you are wrong, doesn't matter how many times you or I repeat ourselves, in order your theory to be correct, not only do we have to discount the various police officers statements, but we also have place Nevill right in the corner, despite the fact he was found in front of the aga. We can go further amd say if Shiela was in the kitchen, then we are missing a bullet case, so you need to introduce another weapon, an air rifle this time, but theres no record of any of Shielas blood and the blood stain patterns do not match her walking through a house full of police officers unseen.
It is much more likely that on their open mic radio sysyem, Collins called one dead female seen through the window, then upon entry they find Ralph and call in one dead male, they then go upstairs and find four bodies, they call in five bodies in total, the information room mistakenly think that two bodies have already been found, wrongly note that a further three bodies are found upstairs instead of four.
I put it to you that my interpretation is a hundred times more plausable than yours.
Would you be able to take the photo's he ask's ?
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Yes, anyway, we know two bodies were not found in the kitchen, it was Nevills body mistaken as a female, as is documented in the firearms units statement.
------------------
No, you are wrong, there were two bodies found downstairs in the kitchen when the police first entered - as evidenced and cross referenced by the contents of the police logs which only report the finding of three further bodies upstairs by 8:10am...
It is this part of the conspiracy where the police made a pigs ear of it, by failing to alter the references to the number of bodies that would have been found upstairs, if there had been some sort of a mix up downstiars involving only one body...
The police put together a cover story to try and account for Sheila's body not originally being found downstairs, but overlooked the importance of establishing that there should have been four bodies found upstairs, instead of only three...
Furthermore...
If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that internal kitchen door, nobody would have been able to see his body there because of the acuteness of the angle to mistakenly identify it as a dead female, I know this to be true because I have been to the window and looked through and the angle is too acute...
To settle this matter once and for all...
Go to WHF, position one of the wooden chairs behind the door in question and sit someone in it. The go out side and take a photograph to prove what can be seen?
Whilst your at it, get somebody to stand outside the kitchen window, whilst somebody who is sat in that chair behind the door takes a photograph showing the angle and view, looking back in the direction of the said kitchen window...
Do it, and prove to me that you are right and I am wrong...
I think you are wrong, doesn't matter how many times you or I repeat ourselves, in order your theory to be correct, not only do we have to discount the various police officers statements, but we also have place Nevill right in the corner, despite the fact he was found in front of the aga. We can go further amd say if Shiela was in the kitchen, then we are missing a bullet case, so you need to introduce another weapon, an air rifle this time, but theres no record of any of Shielas blood and the blood stain patterns do not match her walking through a house full of police officers unseen.
It is much more likely that on their open mic radio sysyem, Collins called one dead female seen through the window, then upon entry they find Ralph and call in one dead male, they then go upstairs and find four bodies, they call in five bodies in total, the information room mistakenly think that two bodies have already been found, wrongly note that a further three bodies are found upstairs instead of four.
I put it to you that my interpretation is a hundred times more plausable than yours.
I don't think so Hartley I think we've read police documents saying that on entry they found one dead female and one dead male?
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No I will not be posting photos at the present time.
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No I will not be posting photos at the present time.
?
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would anne and peter allow you to take photos hartley ? if they knew it was the forum especially?
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Yes, anyway, we know two bodies were not found in the kitchen, it was Nevills body mistaken as a female, as is documented in the firearms units statement.
------------------
No, you are wrong, there were two bodies found downstairs in the kitchen when the police first entered - as evidenced and cross referenced by the contents of the police logs which only report the finding of three further bodies upstairs by 8:10am...
It is this part of the conspiracy where the police made a pigs ear of it, by failing to alter the references to the number of bodies that would have been found upstairs, if there had been some sort of a mix up downstiars involving only one body...
The police put together a cover story to try and account for Sheila's body not originally being found downstairs, but overlooked the importance of establishing that there should have been four bodies found upstairs, instead of only three...
Furthermore...
If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that internal kitchen door, nobody would have been able to see his body there because of the acuteness of the angle to mistakenly identify it as a dead female, I know this to be true because I have been to the window and looked through and the angle is too acute...
To settle this matter once and for all...
Go to WHF, position one of the wooden chairs behind the door in question and sit someone in it. The go out side and take a photograph to prove what can be seen?
Whilst your at it, get somebody to stand outside the kitchen window, whilst somebody who is sat in that chair behind the door takes a photograph showing the angle and view, looking back in the direction of the said kitchen window...
Do it, and prove to me that you are right and I am wrong...
I think you are wrong, doesn't matter how many times you or I repeat ourselves, in order your theory to be correct, not only do we have to discount the various police officers statements, but we also have place Nevill right in the corner, despite the fact he was found in front of the aga. We can go further amd say if Shiela was in the kitchen, then we are missing a bullet case, so you need to introduce another weapon, an air rifle this time, but theres no record of any of Shielas blood and the blood stain patterns do not match her walking through a house full of police officers unseen.
It is much more likely that on their open mic radio sysyem, Collins called one dead female seen through the window, then upon entry they find Ralph and call in one dead male, they then go upstairs and find four bodies, they call in five bodies in total, the information room mistakenly think that two bodies have already been found, wrongly note that a further three bodies are found upstairs instead of four.
I put it to you that my interpretation is a hundred times more plausable than yours.
I don't think so Hartley I think we've read police documents saying that on entry they found one dead female and one dead male?
I think you need to look at that closer Grahame.
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Yes, anyway, we know two bodies were not found in the kitchen, it was Nevills body mistaken as a female, as is documented in the firearms units statement.
------------------
No, you are wrong, there were two bodies found downstairs in the kitchen when the police first entered - as evidenced and cross referenced by the contents of the police logs which only report the finding of three further bodies upstairs by 8:10am...
It is this part of the conspiracy where the police made a pigs ear of it, by failing to alter the references to the number of bodies that would have been found upstairs, if there had been some sort of a mix up downstiars involving only one body...
The police put together a cover story to try and account for Sheila's body not originally being found downstairs, but overlooked the importance of establishing that there should have been four bodies found upstairs, instead of only three...
Furthermore...
If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that internal kitchen door, nobody would have been able to see his body there because of the acuteness of the angle to mistakenly identify it as a dead female, I know this to be true because I have been to the window and looked through and the angle is too acute...
To settle this matter once and for all...
Go to WHF, position one of the wooden chairs behind the door in question and sit someone in it. The go out side and take a photograph to prove what can be seen?
Whilst your at it, get somebody to stand outside the kitchen window, whilst somebody who is sat in that chair behind the door takes a photograph showing the angle and view, looking back in the direction of the said kitchen window...
Do it, and prove to me that you are right and I am wrong...
I think you are wrong, doesn't matter how many times you or I repeat ourselves, in order your theory to be correct, not only do we have to discount the various police officers statements, but we also have place Nevill right in the corner, despite the fact he was found in front of the aga. We can go further amd say if Shiela was in the kitchen, then we are missing a bullet case, so you need to introduce another weapon, an air rifle this time, but theres no record of any of Shielas blood and the blood stain patterns do not match her walking through a house full of police officers unseen.
It is much more likely that on their open mic radio sysyem, Collins called one dead female seen through the window, then upon entry they find Ralph and call in one dead male, they then go upstairs and find four bodies, they call in five bodies in total, the information room mistakenly think that two bodies have already been found, wrongly note that a further three bodies are found upstairs instead of four.
I put it to you that my interpretation is a hundred times more plausable than yours.
I don't think so Hartley I think we've read police documents saying that on entry they found one dead female and one dead male?
I think you need to look at that closer Grahame.
I thought that is what the firearms team said and it was written down. Could anyone turn up that document? I'm sure that's what I read?
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No I will not be posting photos at the present time.
Am i correct in thinking you once said ' you can see all of the door from the window ' when MT said 'you could not ' and now you are saying ' you can see half of the door ' or am i mistaken ?
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No I will not be posting photos at the present time.
Am i correct in thinking you once said ' you can see all of the door from the window ' when MT said 'you could not ' and now you are saying ' you can see half of the door ' or am i mistaken ?
No you can see between a third and a half of the door, it leaves a very small corner, not enough space in my opinion for a six foot four man and a chair, but in any event that is not where he was found.
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Nowhere in those logs does it state the female as being the initial body. It states male first. Female second. The period in question is almost 40 minutes from the commencement of the raid to the farmhouse being declared secure. Nobody during that period, nor after it, corrected the error in the logs recorded. The logs in question don't come to light until Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for 18 years. And it takes a court case to bring to light these logs.
Now are we to believe that these logs, invisible for 18 years, were guarded to the extent that those in possession were prepared to go to court to prevent disclosure, solely because Collins made a mistake?
Jeremy Bamber cannot be allowed to 'get off' due to a mistake made by Collins? Isn't that a bit far fetched?
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No I will not be posting photos at the present time.
Am i correct in thinking you once said ' you can see all of the door from the window ' when MT said 'you could not ' and now you are saying ' you can see half of the door ' or am i mistaken ?
No you can see between a third and a half of the door, it leaves a very small corner, not enough space in my opinion for a six foot four man and a chair, but in any event that is not where he was found.
Did you once think you could see it all though ? How do you know where body was found ?
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according to police photos he was found on an upturned chair infront of the aga to one side.
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No I will not be posting photos at the present time.
Am i correct in thinking you once said ' you can see all of the door from the window ' when MT said 'you could not ' and now you are saying ' you can see half of the door ' or am i mistaken ?
No you can see between a third and a half of the door, it leaves a very small corner, not enough space in my opinion for a six foot four man and a chair, but in any event that is not where he was found.
Did you once think you could see it all though ? How do you know where body was found ?
I may have thought that at one time, not sure.
We know where he was found from the police officers who entered the house, in lieu of anything stronger why would we decide he was found elsewhere?
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So what time did the doc. gain access to WHF ? i assume he wouldn't of gone in with the firearms team . he would of had to wait for the "all clear"?... bound to be an hour or so... so the earliest he would of been able to confirm Sheila's death would of been the moment after he'd checked vital signs were missing and no possible chance of resuscitation,or about 8:45 ish. I see it a bit like the JFK assassination. you see his head blown apart by the bullet(s),you know he is a lost cause but they take him to hospital and attempt to resuscitate a lost cause. when they give up, time of death is then called. there's no mystery in sheila's time of death just a spin on the method of reporting FACT. Unless the doc heard her last breath you can't possibly say she didn't die till then.If he did hear her last breath then they would of attempted resuscitation. now don't get me wrong,I am on the side of "2 bodies in kitchen" but this time of death is a non starter and not the first time its been brought up
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Nowhere in those logs does it state the female as being the initial body. It states male first. Female second. The period in question is almost 40 minutes from the commencement of the raid to the farmhouse being declared secure. Nobody during that period, nor after it, corrected the error in the logs recorded. The logs in question don't come to light until Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for 18 years. And it takes a court case to bring to light these logs.
Now are we to believe that these logs, invisible for 18 years, were guarded to the extent that those in possession were prepared to go to court to prevent disclosure, solely because Collins made a mistake?
Jeremy Bamber cannot be allowed to 'get off' due to a mistake made by Collins? Isn't that a bit far fetched?
Rochy I explained my take on that before, and whilst you didn't agree you said at the time you saw my point.
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someone must have thought she hadnt been dead long, the marks on her neck look like finger prints as id someone as felt for a pulse, why would they check for a pulse ? they must have known/suspected she was recently dead ( as in minutes) or they wouldnt bother feeling for a pulse.
did that make sense? :-[
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Nowhere in those logs does it state the female as being the initial body. It states male first. Female second. The period in question is almost 40 minutes from the commencement of the raid to the farmhouse being declared secure. Nobody during that period, nor after it, corrected the error in the logs recorded. The logs in question don't come to light until Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for 18 years. And it takes a court case to bring to light these logs.
Now are we to believe that these logs, invisible for 18 years, were guarded to the extent that those in possession were prepared to go to court to prevent disclosure, solely because Collins made a mistake?
Jeremy Bamber cannot be allowed to 'get off' due to a mistake made by Collins? Isn't that a bit far fetched?
Rochy I explained my take on that before, and whilst you didn't agree you said at the time you saw my point.
Yes i know your stance. I know you don't feel comfortable with the idea that Sheila somehow travelled downstairs to upstairs. I agree the blood pattern evidence is 'interesting' ;) We could do with some more experts from different fields on here. I remember discussing that with Joolz not too long ago.
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someone must have thought she hadnt been dead long, the marks on her neck look like finger prints as id someone as felt for a pulse, why would they check for a pulse ? they must have known/suspected she was recently dead ( as in minutes) or they wouldnt bother feeling for a pulse.
did that make sense? :-[
It makes a great deal of sense to me Andrea. I'm with you on this one.
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No I will not be posting photos at the present time.
Am i correct in thinking you once said ' you can see all of the door from the window ' when MT said 'you could not ' and now you are saying ' you can see half of the door ' or am i mistaken ?
No you can see between a third and a half of the door, it leaves a very small corner, not enough space in my opinion for a six foot four man and a chair, but in any event that is not where he was found.
Did you once think you could see it all though ? How do you know where body was found ?
I may have thought that at one time, not sure.
We know where he was found from the police officers who entered the house, in lieu of anything stronger why would we decide he was found elsewhere?
What made you change your mind from all to half the door ?
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Yes, anyway, we know two bodies were not found in the kitchen, it was Nevills body mistaken as a female, as is documented in the firearms units statement.
------------------
No, you are wrong, there were two bodies found downstairs in the kitchen when the police first entered - as evidenced and cross referenced by the contents of the police logs which only report the finding of three further bodies upstairs by 8:10am...
It is this part of the conspiracy where the police made a pigs ear of it, by failing to alter the references to the number of bodies that would have been found upstairs, if there had been some sort of a mix up downstiars involving only one body...
The police put together a cover story to try and account for Sheila's body not originally being found downstairs, but overlooked the importance of establishing that there should have been four bodies found upstairs, instead of only three...
Furthermore...
If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that internal kitchen door, nobody would have been able to see his body there because of the acuteness of the angle to mistakenly identify it as a dead female, I know this to be true because I have been to the window and looked through and the angle is too acute...
To settle this matter once and for all...
Go to WHF, position one of the wooden chairs behind the door in question and sit someone in it. The go out side and take a photograph to prove what can be seen?
Whilst your at it, get somebody to stand outside the kitchen window, whilst somebody who is sat in that chair behind the door takes a photograph showing the angle and view, looking back in the direction of the said kitchen window...
Do it, and prove to me that you are right and I am wrong...
I think you are wrong, doesn't matter how many times you or I repeat ourselves, in order your theory to be correct, not only do we have to discount the various police officers statements, but we also have place Nevill right in the corner, despite the fact he was found in front of the aga. We can go further amd say if Shiela was in the kitchen, then we are missing a bullet case, so you need to introduce another weapon, an air rifle this time, but there's no record of any of Shielas blood and the blood stain patterns do not match her walking through a house full of police officers unseen.
It is much more likely that on their open mic radio sysyem, Collins called one dead female seen through the window, then upon entry they find Ralph and call in one dead male, they then go upstairs and find four bodies, they call in five bodies in total, the information room mistakenly think that two bodies have already been found, wrongly note that a further three bodies are found upstairs instead of four.
I put it to you that my interpretation is a hundred times more plausable than yours.
--------------------
Police radio logs are evidence, and their contents are a true account that was recorded contemporaneously at the material time, police statements which were made weeks later, were not even made by some of the police officers whose names appear at the top of them, somebody at the CPS edited them, and then they got the police to sign them - I choose to believe and rely on the contemporaneously recorded details of the police logs, rather than the doctored witness statements which were made for the police officers, by CPS officials who were not at the scene...
If you want to believe that nonsense then that is up to you...
The door we are talking about is in the corner of the kitchen, and as was seen during the TV documentary (Killing Mum and dad) when the cameraman walked through that door into the kitchen, you could only just see a very small sliver of the kitchen window, insufficient enough to be able to see or identify anyone sat on a chair in that location from the vantage point of outside the kitchen window. Look at the shape of Ralph Bambers body, and the position of the overturned wooden chair that his frozen crumpled body lies atop, and the direction which his body is pointing, and then consider the way the door we are talking about opens into the kitchen? Anyone who wants to know the truth can plainly see that Ralph was sat on a chair behind that door and that someone behind that door on the other side, pushed and nudged the door open and that as they did so, they sent Ralph's body tumbling over in the direction it ended up in, falling as it were at the same angle the door pushed him over in?
Missing a bullet case?
One of the firearms officers made a witness statement that when he got into the kitchen, that the kitchen table was overturned etc...
OVERTURNED no less, yet two bullet cases were supposedly photographed and found atop that uprighted kitchen table by the time SOC started to take pictures at around 10am - now, who do you think up righted the kitchen table in the interim period, and who placed all the utensils and other bits and bats, including the two bullet cases on top of that up righted kitchen table?
Does not the fact that the OVERTURNED kitchen table as at the point of entry into the kitchen by the firearms team, which ended upright by the time PC Bird started to take his crime scene pictures, indicate in the strongest possible terms that police stage managed the scene in the kitchen before PC Bird started to take his pictures, and you mention that there is a missing bullet case? Well, if the police did stage manage the kitchen, which they most certainly did, they must have had a good reason for doing so, and if that reason was to cover up for the fact that they had originally found Sheila's body in the kitchen which they wrongly presumed to be dead, then obviously they are going to have to tamper with the evidence by redistributing bullet cases to try and make them fit the falsified scenario that they are trying to portray...
How do you and your supporters explain how the kitchen table could have been OVERTURNED at the time armed police entered the kitchen, and yet it be upright with things upon it, including two bullet cases by the time SOC photograph it at about 10am?
Another thing...
If no-one moved or touched anything until after PC Bird finished taking all his pictures in the kitchen, how did the armed police manage to get into the kitchen in the first place through the very same door behind which Ralph was sat on that chair, without toppling him over, if that other wooden chair was still in position as shown in PC Birds photograph? You and you supporters need to think up a good explanation to account for these very serious anomalies...
As for it being me, that needs to introduce the possible use of another weapon in the kitchen, look again at the fact that it was the police who substituted one of the two bullets that the pathologist removed from Sheila's neck during autopsy which he performed on 7th August 1985, when it (PV/20) was described as a fragmented bullet, but by the time it arrived at the lab' on 20th September 1985 to be examined by the ballistics expert, it had become transformed into a WHOLE bullet, which he was able to match and link to the rifle photographed on top of Sheila's body in the bedroom after 10 O'clock that morning?
This same rifle was at one point (before the firearms team actually entered the farmhouse) spotted to be leaning up against the bedroom window by WPC Julia Jeapes, and subsequently photographed at the bedroom window by PC Bird, from the vantage point of the middle landing of the main stairs - you and your supporters need to think up how, if there was only one weapon found in the main bedroom, how it got from the bedroom window at about 7:15am, onto Sheila's body by 10 AM, and back against the bedroom window at some point afterwards?
If Ralph's body was found in front of the aga, as you suggest, it could not very well have been described by PC Collins as being a female body behind the door, now could it?
None of the blood found in the kitchen was analyzed, so how can you say that none of Sheila's blood was found in the kitchen? You only have to look at the bloodied fingermarks on the edge of the kitchen worktop and ask yourself why did the police not find evidence to confirm who made those bloodied marks there, to realize that these could have been made by Sheila - if they were, how does this equate with the other suggestion that Sheila's hands were blood and injury free?
Then you suggest that it would not have been possible for Sheila to have walked around in the kitchen with all that blood on the floor, but over 30 police officers did just that, and there was no bloodied footprints or boot marks to indicate that so many of them and walked back and forth through the kitchen without leaving any trace that they had done so?
Your theory about the distribution of the bodies downstiars and upstairs, does not take into account, the contents of the officers report about the shooting incident in the kitchen? Where does that fit into your theory?
If you and me, went to court to argue the available evidence, I fancy my chances more than yours, lets put it that way, because fact is police stage managed the scene in the kitchen where the body of Sheila was originally found, as confirmed by the contents of the police logs - let us also not forget, that the cover story about PC Collins making a fundamental mistake in identifying Ralph's body for a dead female which was not rectified until he got into the kitchen, does not take into account that by 7:45am, police were not only talking about two bodies found in the kitchen upon entry, but one was a dead male, and the other was a dead female, and that one was a murder and the other a suicide?
Now is it your case, that Ralph was murdered, and he committed suicide?
I am puzzled how the police could even contemplate that Ralph had committed suicide in the kitchen, if there was no other weapon found there?
You and your supporters need to come up with some sort of an explanation for this, oh and so do the police?
Good luck...
Be aware that as a lie is introduced, it creates more and more problems...
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
I don't think we can use the word "proven". Proven is a very strong word. He was found guilty by a 10 to 2 jury. Just as unless there is absolute proof that he is innocent, if he was found not guilty by an appeal court he would not be proven innocent.
I totally agree, Grahame. Well said +1
'Guilty' and 'proven' in my book only happen following a fair trial. Jeremy Bamber has never had a fair trial or a fair Appeal. That's a basic human right and Jeremy cannot be denied it forever, as much as some people with vested interests would love to deny this to him and to keep him in prison.
Get used to it all of you who want Jeremy to rot in prison, it's not going to happen. Jeremy Bamber will have a fair hearing at Appeal and you are just going to have to live with that.
Justice will be done!
I bet you anything you like that Bamber's fail the final appeal decision in September. Happy Meal .... tenner .... what ever you like!
Get used to it all of you who want Jeremy freed, it's not going to happen. You should br used to it by now; he will never overturn a whole life tarriff.
Justice has been done
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
I don't think we can use the word "proven". Proven is a very strong word. He was found guilty by a 10 to 2 jury. Just as unless there is absolute proof that he is innocent, if he was found not guilty by an appeal court he would not be proven innocent.
I totally agree, Grahame. Well said +1
'Guilty' and 'proven' in my book only happen following a fair trial. Jeremy Bamber has never had a fair trial or a fair Appeal. That's a basic human right and Jeremy cannot be denied it forever, as much as some people with vested interests would love to deny this to him and to keep him in prison.
Get used to it all of you who want Jeremy to rot in prison, it's not going to happen. Jeremy Bamber will have a fair hearing at Appeal and you are just going to have to live with that.
Justice will be done!
I bet you anything you like that Bamber's fail the final appeal decision in September. Happy Meal .... tenner .... what ever you like!
Get used to it all of you who want Jeremy freed, it's not going to happen. You should br used to it by now; he will never overturn a whole life tarriff.
Justice has been done
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If Application fails, there will be a new application, with different arguments, and so on, and so forth, until case eventually does get referred back to court of appeal...
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you will bet a happy meal or a tenner?
WOW very generous you tight git ;)
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Time of Death
Please follow link:-
(1) http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf
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No I will not be posting photos at the present time.
Am i correct in thinking you once said ' you can see all of the door from the window ' when MT said 'you could not ' and now you are saying ' you can see half of the door ' or am i mistaken ?
No you can see between a third and a half of the door, it leaves a very small corner, not enough space in my opinion for a six foot four man and a chair, but in any event that is not where he was found.
Did you once think you could see it all though ? How do you know where body was found ?
I may have thought that at one time, not sure.
We know where he was found from the police officers who entered the house, in lieu of anything stronger why would we decide he was found elsewhere?
What made you change your mind from all to half the door ?
I took a look.
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Yes, anyway, we know two bodies were not found in the kitchen, it was Nevills body mistaken as a female, as is documented in the firearms units statement.
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No, you are wrong, there were two bodies found downstairs in the kitchen when the police first entered - as evidenced and cross referenced by the contents of the police logs which only report the finding of three further bodies upstairs by 8:10am...
It is this part of the conspiracy where the police made a pigs ear of it, by failing to alter the references to the number of bodies that would have been found upstairs, if there had been some sort of a mix up downstiars involving only one body...
The police put together a cover story to try and account for Sheila's body not originally being found downstairs, but overlooked the importance of establishing that there should have been four bodies found upstairs, instead of only three...
Furthermore...
If Ralph was sat on that chair behind that internal kitchen door, nobody would have been able to see his body there because of the acuteness of the angle to mistakenly identify it as a dead female, I know this to be true because I have been to the window and looked through and the angle is too acute...
To settle this matter once and for all...
Go to WHF, position one of the wooden chairs behind the door in question and sit someone in it. The go out side and take a photograph to prove what can be seen?
Whilst your at it, get somebody to stand outside the kitchen window, whilst somebody who is sat in that chair behind the door takes a photograph showing the angle and view, looking back in the direction of the said kitchen window...
Do it, and prove to me that you are right and I am wrong...
I think you are wrong, doesn't matter how many times you or I repeat ourselves, in order your theory to be correct, not only do we have to discount the various police officers statements, but we also have place Nevill right in the corner, despite the fact he was found in front of the aga. We can go further amd say if Shiela was in the kitchen, then we are missing a bullet case, so you need to introduce another weapon, an air rifle this time, but there's no record of any of Shielas blood and the blood stain patterns do not match her walking through a house full of police officers unseen.
It is much more likely that on their open mic radio sysyem, Collins called one dead female seen through the window, then upon entry they find Ralph and call in one dead male, they then go upstairs and find four bodies, they call in five bodies in total, the information room mistakenly think that two bodies have already been found, wrongly note that a further three bodies are found upstairs instead of four.
I put it to you that my interpretation is a hundred times more plausable than yours.
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Police radio logs are evidence, and their contents are a true account that was recorded contemporaneously at the material time, police statements which were made weeks later, were not even made by some of the police officers whose names appear at the top of them, somebody at the CPS edited them, and then they got the police to sign them - I choose to believe and rely on the contemporaneously recorded details of the police logs, rather than the doctored witness statements which were made for the police officers, by CPS officials who were not at the scene...
If you want to believe that nonsense then that is up to you...
The door we are talking about is in the corner of the kitchen, and as was seen during the TV documentary (Killing Mum and dad) when the cameraman walked through that door into the kitchen, you could only just see a very small sliver of the kitchen window, insufficient enough to be able to see or identify anyone sat on a chair in that location from the vantage point of outside the kitchen window. Look at the shape of Ralph Bambers body, and the position of the overturned wooden chair that his frozen crumpled body lies atop, and the direction which his body is pointing, and then consider the way the door we are talking about opens into the kitchen? Anyone who wants to know the truth can plainly see that Ralph was sat on a chair behind that door and that someone behind that door on the other side, pushed and nudged the door open and that as they did so, they sent Ralph's body tumbling over in the direction it ended up in, falling as it were at the same angle the door pushed him over in?
Missing a bullet case?
One of the firearms officers made a witness statement that when he got into the kitchen, that the kitchen table was overturned etc...
OVERTURNED no less, yet two bullet cases were supposedly photographed and found atop that uprighted kitchen table by the time SOC started to take pictures at around 10am - now, who do you think up righted the kitchen table in the interim period, and who placed all the utensils and other bits and bats, including the two bullet cases on top of that up righted kitchen table?
Does not the fact that the OVERTURNED kitchen table as at the point of entry into the kitchen by the firearms team, which ended upright by the time PC Bird started to take his crime scene pictures, indicate in the strongest possible terms that police stage managed the scene in the kitchen before PC Bird started to take his pictures, and you mention that there is a missing bullet case? Well, if the police did stage manage the kitchen, which they most certainly did, they must have had a good reason for doing so, and if that reason was to cover up for the fact that they had originally found Sheila's body in the kitchen which they wrongly presumed to be dead, then obviously they are going to have to tamper with the evidence by redistributing bullet cases to try and make them fit the falsified scenario that they are trying to portray...
How do you and your supporters explain how the kitchen table could have been OVERTURNED at the time armed police entered the kitchen, and yet it be upright with things upon it, including two bullet cases by the time SOC photograph it at about 10am?
Another thing...
If no-one moved or touched anything until after PC Bird finished taking all his pictures in the kitchen, how did the armed police manage to get into the kitchen in the first place through the very same door behind which Ralph was sat on that chair, without toppling him over, if that other wooden chair was still in position as shown in PC Birds photograph? You and you supporters need to think up a good explanation to account for these very serious anomalies...
As for it being me, that needs to introduce the possible use of another weapon in the kitchen, look again at the fact that it was the police who substituted one of the two bullets that the pathologist removed from Sheila's neck during autopsy which he performed on 7th August 1985, when it (PV/20) was described as a fragmented bullet, but by the time it arrived at the lab' on 20th September 1985 to be examined by the ballistics expert, it had become transformed into a WHOLE bullet, which he was able to match and link to the rifle photographed on top of Sheila's body in the bedroom after 10 O'clock that morning?
This same rifle was at one point (before the firearms team actually entered the farmhouse) spotted to be leaning up against the bedroom window by WPC Julia Jeapes, and subsequently photographed at the bedroom window by PC Bird, from the vantage point of the middle landing of the main stairs - you and your supporters need to think up how, if there was only one weapon found in the main bedroom, how it got from the bedroom window at about 7:15am, onto Sheila's body by 10 AM, and back against the bedroom window at some point afterwards?
If Ralph's body was found in front of the aga, as you suggest, it could not very well have been described by PC Collins as being a female body behind the door, now could it?
None of the blood found in the kitchen was analyzed, so how can you say that none of Sheila's blood was found in the kitchen? You only have to look at the bloodied fingermarks on the edge of the kitchen worktop and ask yourself why did the police not find evidence to confirm who made those bloodied marks there, to realize that these could have been made by Sheila - if they were, how does this equate with the other suggestion that Sheila's hands were blood and injury free?
Then you suggest that it would not have been possible for Sheila to have walked around in the kitchen with all that blood on the floor, but over 30 police officers did just that, and there was no bloodied footprints or boot marks to indicate that so many of them and walked back and forth through the kitchen without leaving any trace that they had done so?
Your theory about the distribution of the bodies downstiars and upstairs, does not take into account, the contents of the officers report about the shooting incident in the kitchen? Where does that fit into your theory?
If you and me, went to court to argue the available evidence, I fancy my chances more than yours, lets put it that way, because fact is police stage managed the scene in the kitchen where the body of Sheila was originally found, as confirmed by the contents of the police logs - let us also not forget, that the cover story about PC Collins making a fundamental mistake in identifying Ralph's body for a dead female which was not rectified until he got into the kitchen, does not take into account that by 7:45am, police were not only talking about two bodies found in the kitchen upon entry, but one was a dead male, and the other was a dead female, and that one was a murder and the other a suicide?
Now is it your case, that Ralph was murdered, and he committed suicide?
I am puzzled how the police could even contemplate that Ralph had committed suicide in the kitchen, if there was no other weapon found there?
You and your supporters need to come up with some sort of an explanation for this, oh and so do the police?
Good luck...
Be aware that as a lie is introduced, it creates more and more problems...
Well that's gone and set things up nicely ::)
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No I disagree Mike, your theory is multi faceted, in order for it to work you have to take a leap of faith initially, then another and another. So many in fact that it can't possibly be true.
Two bullet case on the table? Nope, sorry but unless you can provide evidence of this then I can't even start to take it seriously.
Let's now look at this overturned table business, I know the statement where this comes from, and I'm sure you will agree it's an isolated instance, i.e it is not mentioned anywhere else. I can't explain the reference, however there are three possibilities her, firstly it could be as you suggest, secondly it could be a mistake (you agree that the police make mistakes do you not), or thirdly the word overturned may not mean that the table was knocked over, simply that it was put out of place and items knocked over. I find it extremely hard to believe that it was knocked over and the put upright again by the police and then the table reset with place mats etc in such a way, it's unlikely in the extreme as it serves no purpose to have done so whatsoever.
The logs are a record of the confusing and constant radio chatter, and I've akready explained a likely alternative.
With regards to good luck and going to court, it's a bit of a ridiculous comment, I'm not sure why I would ever be going to court and didn't realise I had or needed any supporters, so I'm slightly confused. In any event as you have no evidence of your theory and the fact that JB and his team have been unsuccessful at pulling the wool over the courts eyes on several occasions, you will have to forgive if I'm not as confident of his success as you appear to be.
Let's also not forget that just a few days ago you were suggesting that June was resposible for the murders. ::)
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In images of the kitchen, the table is set for breakfast and the boys' books are on there, too. Would the police have been so meticulous to re-stage that?
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The Official time of death according to whom? Thankfully not acording to the law ... a pathologist is required to give such an 'official' declaration. Therefore it is certainly not the 'official' time of death.
And it appears you have given a time of death as 8.44am for a body found at 7.37am; call me picky but isn't that impossible? Or perhaps the body found at 7.37am wasn't desceased but then died at 8.44am ..... she didn't by any chance manage to whisper 'Jeremy did it' did she?
One thing that is official is that Bamber is a proven multiple murderer. This is just misleading fog.
I don't think we can use the word "proven". Proven is a very strong word. He was found guilty by a 10 to 2 jury. Just as unless there is absolute proof that he is innocent, if he was found not guilty by an appeal court he would not be proven innocent.
I totally agree, Grahame. Well said +1
'Guilty' and 'proven' in my book only happen following a fair trial. Jeremy Bamber has never had a fair trial or a fair Appeal. That's a basic human right and Jeremy cannot be denied it forever, as much as some people with vested interests would love to deny this to him and to keep him in prison.
Get used to it all of you who want Jeremy to rot in prison, it's not going to happen. Jeremy Bamber will have a fair hearing at Appeal and you are just going to have to live with that.
Justice will be done!
I bet you anything you like that Bamber's fail the final appeal decision in September. Happy Meal .... tenner .... what ever you like!
Get used to it all of you who want Jeremy freed, it's not going to happen. You should br used to it by now; he will never overturn a whole life tarriff.
Justice has been done
-----------------------
If Application fails, there will be a new application, with different arguments, and so on, and so forth, until case eventually does get referred back to court of appeal...
Until all the old fart judges have died out and we get those who really believe in justice.
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Is that what you're waiting for, Grahame, little baby judges to be weaned? I hope JB's got a pension plan.
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Is that what you're waiting for, Grahame, little baby judges to be weaned? I hope JB's got a pension plan.
Funny thing is Bamber would most likely have inherited it all by now; he could have sold the lot and bought himself a nice pad back in St. Tropez or got a really big stash over in Amsterdam.
I think Bamber has a Government pension plan sorted. They provide bed and board and he sews mailbags for 30p a week.
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Is that what you're waiting for, Grahame, little baby judges to be weaned? I hope JB's got a pension plan.
Yes they're all waiting in the wings in their prams ready to jump into the judges seat. For out of the mouth of babes. ;)
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You see! Even I can talk and talk and say nothing at all. Just like some on this forum. ;)
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someone must have thought she hadnt been dead long, the marks on her neck look like finger prints as id someone as felt for a pulse, why would they check for a pulse ? they must have known/suspected she was recently dead ( as in minutes) or they wouldnt bother feeling for a pulse.
did that make sense? :-[
That's a very good point, Andrea +1
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Nowhere in those logs does it state the female as being the initial body. It states male first. Female second. The period in question is almost 40 minutes from the commencement of the raid to the farmhouse being declared secure. Nobody during that period, nor after it, corrected the error in the logs recorded. The logs in question don't come to light until Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for 18 years. And it takes a court case to bring to light these logs.
Now are we to believe that these logs, invisible for 18 years, were guarded to the extent that those in possession were prepared to go to court to prevent disclosure, solely because Collins made a mistake?
Jeremy Bamber cannot be allowed to 'get off' due to a mistake made by Collins? Isn't that a bit far fetched?
Excellent points, Rocky, well said! +1
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someone must have thought she hadnt been dead long, the marks on her neck look like finger prints as id someone as felt for a pulse, why would they check for a pulse ? they must have known/suspected she was recently dead ( as in minutes) or they wouldnt bother feeling for a pulse.
did that make sense? :-[
That's a very good point, Andrea +1
Not necessarily, it's not the conclusion that Macdonell comes to.
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hartley, this is ot, but do you remember when someposted a link that shows what other members on the forum are doing at any given time, might have been bob, could you find it and put it with your statement thread, plz, thanks :)
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hartley, this is ot, but do you remember when someposted a link that shows what other members on the forum are doing at any given time, might have been bob, could you find it and put it with your statement thread, plz, thanks :)
It was me. It's near the bottom of the screen on the left...
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=who
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Is that what you're waiting for, Grahame, little baby judges to be weaned? I hope JB's got a pension plan.
Yes they're all waiting in the wings in their prams ready to jump into the judges seat. For out of the mouth of babes. ;)
Grahame, you've had babes and sucklings. What usually comes out of their mouths?
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Beat me to it, but I would have been wrong, I thought Andrea meant the stats page.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=stats
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hartley, this is ot, but do you remember when someposted a link that shows what other members on the forum are doing at any given time, might have been bob, could you find it and put it with your statement thread, plz, thanks :)
It was me. It's near the bottom of the screen on the left...
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=who
thanks roch :)
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Yeah harterz, i'm addicted to using that page now. Think i might have caught bob smiting me on it the other night. |It's quite funny watching what people are doing. You can't see the link for it on the jb case discussion page. you need to be on the home or jb forum page.
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Yeah harterz, i'm addicted to using that page now. Think i might have caught bob smiting me on it the other night. |It's quite funny watching what people are doing. You can't see the link for it on the jb case discussion page. you need to be on the home or jb forum page.
Yes it does show the smiters up, it's also handy to see if someone's about to post in a thread you've been involved, or whether it's time to call it a night.
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i cant find where it is, i looked on the home page but wwhich bit do i click?
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Yeah harterz, i'm addicted to using that page now. Think i might have caught bob smiting me on it the other night. |It's quite funny watching what people are doing. You can't see the link for it on the jb case discussion page. you need to be on the home or jb forum page.
Yes it does show the smiters up, it's also handy to see if someone's about to post in a thread you've been involved, or whether it's time to call it a night.
Totally agree. Couldn't have put it better. But it's a bit like watching the kettle boil.
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Haha yes, a bit like that. :D
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i cant find where it is, i looked on the home page but wwhich bit do i click?
Look for where it says 'users on line' ... then click on the figures associated with that.
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found it, thanks roch :)
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Check me out, smite finger all pink and unused. Check smiffy out, smite finger like a bit of burnt gristle.
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i cant see whos smiting me, just aswell i suppose
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I'd still like to know how it is that I'll log off at say 1am, then have quick look when I get up at about 7am and find I've earned anything upto about 15 smites during those few hours, it certainly takes all sorts. I earned a smite for posting the statements thread, I've managed to piss someone off that's for sure. ;D
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ive had smites when i havent even been on the forum at all , but hey ho.
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I'd still like to know how it is that I'll log off at say 1am, then have quick look when I get up at about 7am and find I've earned anything upto about 15 smites during those few hours, it certainly takes all sorts. I earned a smite for posting the statements thread, I've managed to piss someone off that's for sure. ;D
Snot me. I just forget the smite thing is there.
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I'd still like to know how it is that I'll log off at say 1am, then have quick look when I get up at about 7am and find I've earned anything upto about 15 smites during those few hours, it certainly takes all sorts. I earned a smite for posting the statements thread, I've managed to piss someone off that's for sure. ;D
Snot me. I just forget the smite thing is there.
Well it be turned off, but we've been thete already.
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I'd still like to know how it is that I'll log off at say 1am, then have quick look when I get up at about 7am and find I've earned anything upto about 15 smites during those few hours, it certainly takes all sorts. I earned a smite for posting the statements thread, I've managed to piss someone off that's for sure. ;D
Snot me. I just forget the smite thing is there.
Not guilty either. I don't smite anyone these days. I've been targeted though, I think by 'the johns'.
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I'd still like to know how it is that I'll log off at say 1am, then have quick look when I get up at about 7am and find I've earned anything upto about 15 smites during those few hours, it certainly takes all sorts. I earned a smite for posting the statements thread, I've managed to piss someone off that's for sure. ;D
Snot me. I just forget the smite thing is there.
Well it be turned off, but we've been thete already.
I can't turn it off. Only admin can do that.
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Talk to admin, Grahame. Take him a big beetroot.
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Talk to admin, Grahame. Take him a big beetroot.
He won't answer me. He's left you crazy lot for me to sort out. ::)
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Woooh!! We're all so mental!! With an average age of 74.
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Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...
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Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...
Where did you get your degree in pathology?
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Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...
Was this pointed out by the pathologist?
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Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...
Where did you get your degree in pathology?
Hartley
It's just elementary stuff. There is the presence of something which shouldn't be there-fresh blood and the absence of things which should not be there-rigor mortis and lividity. The two professors have the qualifications you require. Its opposing their opinion which is amateurish. Incidently, the CCRC did not give any scientific reason for rejecting that photographic evidence but only fell back on a technicality. I suppose you could say "Well alright the conviction may be wrong from a scientific point of view, but that's entirely irrelevant."
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Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...
Where did you get your degree in pathology?
Hartley
It's just elementary stuff. There is the presence of something which shouldn't be there-fresh blood and the absence of things which should not be there-rigor mortis and lividity. The two professors have the qualifications you require. Its opposing their opinion which is amateurish. Incidently, the CCRC did not give any scientific reason for rejecting that photographic evidence but only fell back on a technicality. I suppose you could say "Well alright the conviction may be wrong from a scientific point of view, but that's entirely irrelevant."
No not true at all, there have been a great number of different professionals and experts who have offered their opinion, from pathologists, surgeons, world renowned blood experts employed by JB's defence team, ballistics experts and many many others. Not a single one has come to the same conclusion that Mike has suggested.
So with all due respect, I, like the courts would take this host of professional expert opinions over that of one of JB's supporters who is relying solely on a photograph of a photograph to make his point.
In addition to which, the reliance on the images which show Sheila's arm in different positions, does not indicate the lack of rigor mortis in her body, when rigor mortis sets in, a human body will not freeze and turn to stone instantly, it will become stiff over time, starting with the face muscles and then spreading to other joints, in fact the maximum stiffness is reached at 12-24 hours post mortem. So the fact that Sheila's arm could be moved a mere 8 or 9 hours after her death is not in any way unusual.
On another note, you may perhaps suggest that liver mortis does not appear present in the photograph of a photograph, but again that is not true. Two characteristics of liver mortis is that the upper surfaces of the body become lighter (as the photograph and witness statements indicate), and the lower surfaces become discoloured as gravity takes effect on the bodily fluids. The photograph of a photograph does not show this discolouration, but it does not show any part of Sheila's body which would be affected, so it is certainly not evidence of the lack of liver mortis, in fact the paleness signs are present and correct.
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Gibbons statement clearly had Neville sitting in his chair in the kitchen when he was present...which was after the raid team had entered the house...but before the photographs.
So from that EVIDENCE the only explanation is that the police arranged Neville's body as per the photographs. It could well be that his body was moved in order for it to be viewable from the window to make claims of it being mis-identified as a female to be made. If left in its original position behind the door and out of sight then it cannot be used to counter the claims of a female body being seen through the window.
Harters....you changed from full door to a specific "half the door" to a new claim of being between half and a third of the door....
between half and third is MOST DEFINITELY less than half a door....this makes your ealier claims to be wrong and misleading and so your credibility is now reduced.
Have you really looked through that window? have you really took any photographs through that window?...in light of your changing claims on the matter then it does raise questions that you should address if you wish to be taken seriously.
Maybe you think I am being harsh about these changes in your claims....BUT put yourself in the position of being accused of something! Your changing claims could be inferred as being lies that are concealing guilt....what would a court think about your changing claims?
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Gibbons statement clearly had Neville sitting in his chair in the kitchen when he was present...which was after the raid team had entered the house...but before the photographs.
So from that EVIDENCE the only explanation is that the police arranged Neville's body as per the photographs. It could well be that his body was moved in order for it to be viewable from the window to make claims of it being mis-identified as a female to be made. If left in its original position behind the door and out of sight then it cannot be used to counter the claims of a female body being seen through the window.
Erm, if he was behind the door, the police wouldn't have been able to get in. ???
Harters....you changed from full door to a specific "half the door" to a new claim of being between half and a third of the door....
between half and third is MOST DEFINITELY less than half a door....this makes your ealier claims to be wrong and misleading and so your credibility is now reduced.
No it doesn't.
Have you really looked through that window? have you really took any photographs through that window?...in light of your changing claims on the matter then it does raise questions that you should address if you wish to be taken seriously.
Maybe you think I am being harsh about these changes in your claims....BUT put yourself in the position of being accused of something! Your changing claims could be inferred as being lies that are concealing guilt....what would a court think about your changing claims?
Yes I have, but no I have not taken a photograph. You may infer what you choose.
I'm not entirely convinced I ever said you could see the entire door but after looking for myself you can indeed see about half the door, maybe just less than half, maybe a little more if you press your eye ball against the window. So I don't consider myself to have changed my view/claim.
I'm not really sure what a court has to do with anything. :-\
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And as it happens, it would appear that Mike has claimed he already has photographs and angles, perhaps you should ask him to post them?
He clearly is unable to, otherwise he wouldn't repeatedly ask that of myself.
I have got the pictures, and I have got the angle taken by a camera man, of the angle visible from entering the kitchen via the internal door behind which the body of Ralph Bamber was sat, and the kitchen window - I am confident that the risk I took, of being prosecuted, was worth it, because it exposes the lies told by police officers about allegedly misidentifying the body of Ralph Bamber , as that of a dead female...
The angle is too acute, you could not make the mistake which the police in this case alleged...
In my opinion...
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Gibbons statement clearly had Neville sitting in his chair in the kitchen when he was present...which was after the raid team had entered the house...but before the photographs.
So from that EVIDENCE the only explanation is that the police arranged Neville's body as per the photographs. It could well be that his body was moved in order for it to be viewable from the window to make claims of it being mis-identified as a female to be made. If left in its original position behind the door and out of sight then it cannot be used to counter the claims of a female body being seen through the window.
Erm, if he was behind the door, the police wouldn't have been able to get in. ???
Harters....you changed from full door to a specific "half the door" to a new claim of being between half and a third of the door....
between half and third is MOST DEFINITELY less than half a door....this makes your ealier claims to be wrong and misleading and so your credibility is now reduced.
No it doesn't.
Have you really looked through that window? have you really took any photographs through that window?...in light of your changing claims on the matter then it does raise questions that you should address if you wish to be taken seriously.
Maybe you think I am being harsh about these changes in your claims....BUT put yourself in the position of being accused of something! Your changing claims could be inferred as being lies that are concealing guilt....what would a court think about your changing claims?
Yes I have, but no I have not taken a photograph. You may infer what you choose.
I'm not entirely convinced I ever said you could see the entire door but after looking for myself you can indeed see about half the door, maybe just less than half, maybe a little more if you press your eye ball against the window. So I don't consider myself to have changed my view/claim.
I'm not really sure what a court has to do with anything. :-\
so this kitchen door...
how wide is the kitchen door....for if your talking of seeing about a half or a third then you need to know how wide the door is in the first place to estimate from.
if you cannot see the whole width then any estimate is going to be very much based on guesswork unless you already have details on the correct width from another source.
on making this claim...is that the upper part of the door..or does it include the whole height of the door..
or is it really about half to between nearly a third of the width of only the upper part of the door?
a sitting Nevill would be screened from viewing from the kitchen window by the cupboard/unit that is next to the sink unit....
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No Smiffy, the panelling on the door makes it very easy to estimate where the half way point is.
But in any event the door is 838mm in width.
With regards to how close to the ground you can see would depend on the height of the person looking through the window, but myself being over six foot can see from about a foot and a half from the ground.
This photograph may help visualise things?
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you will bet a happy meal or a tenner?
WOW very generous you tight git ;)
For you hun it would be the tenner.
A moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips!
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Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...
Where did you get your degree in pathology?
Hartley
It's just elementary stuff. There is the presence of something which shouldn't be there-fresh blood and the absence of things which should not be there-rigor mortis and lividity. The two professors have the qualifications you require. Its opposing their opinion which is amateurish. Incidently, the CCRC did not give any scientific reason for rejecting that photographic evidence but only fell back on a technicality. I suppose you could say "Well alright the conviction may be wrong from a scientific point of view, but that's entirely irrelevant."
Brushing over the technicality a little there! What was the reason they dismissed the photo 'evidence'?
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you will bet a happy meal or a tenner?
WOW very generous you tight git ;)
For you hun it would be the tenner.
A moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips!
good job im lucky, and can eat what i like without worrying about my weight 8)
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Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...
Where did you get your degree in pathology?
Hartley
It's just elementary stuff. There is the presence of something which shouldn't be there-fresh blood and the absence of things which should not be there-rigor mortis and lividity. The two professors have the qualifications you require. Its opposing their opinion which is amateurish. Incidently, the CCRC did not give any scientific reason for rejecting that photographic evidence but only fell back on a technicality. I suppose you could say "Well alright the conviction may be wrong from a scientific point of view, but that's entirely irrelevant."
Brushing over the technicality a little there! What was the reason they dismissed the photo 'evidence'?
On a glib technicality I believe. They weren't very specific, only to say they didn't agree with the findings of the expert who studied the photos. On the word of another expert, supposedly?
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Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...
Where did you get your degree in pathology?
Hartley
It's just elementary stuff. There is the presence of something which shouldn't be there-fresh blood and the absence of things which should not be there-rigor mortis and lividity. The two professors have the qualifications you require. Its opposing their opinion which is amateurish. Incidently, the CCRC did not give any scientific reason for rejecting that photographic evidence but only fell back on a technicality. I suppose you could say "Well alright the conviction may be wrong from a scientific point of view, but that's entirely irrelevant."
Brushing over the technicality a little there! What was the reason they dismissed the photo 'evidence'?
On a glib technicality I believe. They weren't very specific, only to say they didn't agree with the findings of the expert who studied the photos. On the word of another expert, supposedly?
Not having seen the 89 page dossier explaining the reasons for this, we are all in the dark on this one, so I don't see how it can be factored in to an argument for or against. IMO
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Sheila's skin had not discoloured sufficiently enough, at the time PC Bird photographed her body, for her to have already been dead for seven hours? The discoloration of her skin, by 10 am suggests in the clearest possible terms, that her death occurred only some two hours prior to the occasion when PC Bird took the crucial picture, which is consistent with Sheila still being very much alive inside whf, until after 8.10am...
Where did you get your degree in pathology?
Hartley
It's just elementary stuff. There is the presence of something which shouldn't be there-fresh blood and the absence of things which should not be there-rigor mortis and lividity. The two professors have the qualifications you require. Its opposing their opinion which is amateurish. Incidently, the CCRC did not give any scientific reason for rejecting that photographic evidence but only fell back on a technicality. I suppose you could say "Well alright the conviction may be wrong from a scientific point of view, but that's entirely irrelevant."
Brushing over the technicality a little there! What was the reason they dismissed the photo 'evidence'?
On a glib technicality I believe. They weren't very specific, only to say they didn't agree with the findings of the expert who studied the photos. On the word of another expert, supposedly?
In essence, yes. However the matter is being directly addressed by Jeremy Bamber's team and additional scientific analysis is being undertaken. It is far too early to write off the evidence of Peter Sutherst - his findings are likely to remain a key part of Jeremy Bamber's case.
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NGB: when are we going to hear of the ccrc final decision, september was it?
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Gibbons statement clearly had Neville sitting in his chair in the kitchen when he was present...which was after the raid team had entered the house...but before the photographs.
And no actually, re-reading Gibbons statement dated 23/09/85, you're lying your backside off.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,184.msg485.html#msg485
This is what he actually says:
Together with Chief Superintendent Harris, who had also attended the scene, and Force Support Unit officers, I entered the house. There I saw the body of an elderly male with his trousers partly down seated with his head slumped forward.
Which pretty much describes this photograph does it not?
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NGB: when are we going to hear of the ccrc final decision, september was it?
No Andrea, that's the deadline for JB to submit his evidence, the CCRC will then take a length of time to examine the submission prior to releasing their recommendation. It could be just a few weeks later, but could be a few months.
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oh thanks.
just looked at my bank account on line, and was shocked to find a balance of 3.77 million in it, then i woke up ;)
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NGB: when are we going to hear of the ccrc final decision, september was it?
Andrea - Jeremy's team have been given until 9th September to make their final submissions. I suspect the CCRC will then take several weeks to consider the submissions and make their final decision. It is possible there could be further delays if the CCRC decide to obtain further documents as a result of the defence submissions.
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NGB: when are we going to hear of the ccrc final decision, september was it?
Andrea - Jeremy's team have been given until 9th September to make their final submissions. I suspect the CCRC will then take several weeks to consider the submissions and make their final decision. It is possible there could be further delays if the CCRC decide to obtain further documents as a result of the defence submissions.
I've got a couple of snails down the garden who could do the job quicker than theCCRC.
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Gibbons statement clearly had Neville sitting in his chair in the kitchen when he was present...which was after the raid team had entered the house...but before the photographs.
And no actually, re-reading Gibbons statement dated 23/09/85, you're lying your backside off.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,184.msg485.html#msg485
This is what he actually says:
Together with Chief Superintendent Harris, who had also attended the scene, and Force Support Unit officers, I entered the house. There I saw the body of an elderly male with his trousers partly down seated with his head slumped forward.
Which pretty much describes this photograph does it not?
NO
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Gibbons statement clearly had Neville sitting in his chair in the kitchen when he was present...which was after the raid team had entered the house...but before the photographs.
And no actually, re-reading Gibbons statement dated 23/09/85, you're lying your backside off.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,184.msg485.html#msg485
This is what he actually says:
Together with Chief Superintendent Harris, who had also attended the scene, and Force Support Unit officers, I entered the house. There I saw the body of an elderly male with his trousers partly down seated with his head slumped forward.
Which pretty much describes this photograph does it not?
NO
Errr yes okay then. ::)
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sitting/seated======quite clear what that means and Nevill cannot be described in that way from viewing the picture.
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sitting/seated======quite clear what that means and Nevill cannot be described in that way from viewing the picture.
Well I disagree completely, he is very much seated, even Mike describes it as being in a sitting position on his note on the photograph. But as you please, you're entitled to your opinion.
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sitting/seated======quite clear what that means and Nevill cannot be described in that way from viewing the picture.
Well I disagree completely, he is very much seated, even Mike describes it as being in a sitting position on his note on the photograph. But as you please, you're entitled to your opinion.