Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: chochokeira on July 24, 2011, 12:06:AM
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The chances of Taff Jones meeting his Maker by falling off a ladder were so tiny because so few deaths happen that way. See the following statistics from a Daily Mirror article:
300,000,000/1 SHARK ATTACK (c 40 deaths per year)
300,000,000/1 FAIRGROUND ACCIDENT
250,000,000/1 FALLING COCONUT (c 150 deaths per year)
11,000,000/1 PLANE CRASH (c 1,300 deaths per year)
10,000,000/1 KILLED BY LIGHTNING (c 5 deaths per year)
10,000,000/1 KILLED BY THE ESCAPE OF RADIATION
9,300,000/1 DYING IN TERRORIST ATTACK
5,000,000/1 SCALDED BY HOT TAP WATER. (c 126 deaths per year)
4,400,000/1 LEFT-HANDED PEOPLE USING A RIGHT-HANDED PRODUCT
3,500,000/1 SNAKE BITES (c 25,000 deaths per year)
3,000,000/1 FOOD POISONING (c 200 deaths per year)
2,300,000/1 DYING FROM FALLING OFF A LADDER (c 15 deaths per year)
1,200 suffer serious injuries. A quarter of all falls happen off ladders.
2,000,000/1 DYING AFTER FALLING OUT OF BED (c 20 deaths)
685,000/1 DROWNING IN THE BATH (25 deaths per year)
500,000/1 BEING KILLED IN A TRAIN CRASH (c 13 deths per year)
43,500/1 BEING KILLED IN AN ACCIDENT AT WORK (c 300 deaths)
8,000/1 KILLED IN A ROAD ACCIDENT (c 1,500 per year)
5/1 DYING FROM CANCER ( c 130,000 deaths per year)
2.5/1 DYING FROM HEART ATTACK OR STROKE (c200,000 deaths per year)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-world/2008/05/30/scientists-calculate-odd-ways-to-die-115875-17495916/
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The majority of those who fall off of ladders survive to tell the tale
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Choch!! Welcome to my world!! How convenient was that ladder incident?
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Choch!! Welcome to my world!! How convenient was that ladder incident?
It's the timing that makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck, Shona. Most odd.
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I'm sorry to be blunt, Choch, but the whole thing is a crock of shit. It's a bloody mess.
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I hate heights and also ladders. I remember working in Braintree once 25 feet up signwriting a factory building and this wasp decided to investigate me. What do I do? Pot of paint in one hand and brush in the other. I took a swipe at the wasp, knocked my glasses off which smashed as the hit the ground and I nearly fell of the ladder as well.
I knew a farmer a few years back. I used to do all his sign work. He was working in a barn on a ladder. He must have fallen straight back and was killed instantly. Poor chap. I felt sorry for his wife. He was so young as well. Had a farm over Tolleshunt D'Arcy somewhere. In fact just a couple of miles away from White House Farm by coincidence.
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Nil !!
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I hate heights and also ladders. I remember working in Braintree once 25 feet up signwriting a factory building and this wasp decided to investigate me. What do I do? Pot of paint in one hand and brush in the other. I took a swipe at the wasp, knocked my glasses off which smashed as the hit the ground and I nearly fell of the ladder as well.
I knew a farmer a few years back. I used to do all his sign work. He was working in a barn on a ladder. He must have fallen straight back and was killed instantly. Poor chap. I felt sorry for his wife. He was so young as well. Had a farm over Tolleshunt D'Arcy somewhere. In fact just a couple of miles away from White House Farm by coincidence.
Thanks for this, Grahame. Do you know the height he fell from, why he died? Was it the height, what he landed on, how he landed - head first? - or some other factor?
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Thousands of people fall from ladders every year. Although around 1,200 of them are seriously injured as a result, only c 15 people tend to die from such falls each year. Are there any details of why Taff Jones died as result of his fall?
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I hate heights and also ladders. I remember working in Braintree once 25 feet up signwriting a factory building and this wasp decided to investigate me. What do I do? Pot of paint in one hand and brush in the other. I took a swipe at the wasp, knocked my glasses off which smashed as the hit the ground and I nearly fell of the ladder as well.
I knew a farmer a few years back. I used to do all his sign work. He was working in a barn on a ladder. He must have fallen straight back and was killed instantly. Poor chap. I felt sorry for his wife. He was so young as well. Had a farm over Tolleshunt D'Arcy somewhere. In fact just a couple of miles away from White House Farm by coincidence.
Thanks for this, Grahame. Do you know the height he fell from, why he died? Was it the height, what he landed on, how he landed - head first? - or some other factor?
Hi Keira. I think it was around 20 feet and he fell backwards onto concrete and hit his head. I can't be entirely sure unless I contact his widow, but I don't feel it would be right to do that?
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It has always sounded very fishy to me, to say the least >:( :(
Me too and I don't think it was properly investigated either. But I could be wrong?
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"Jones died before the case came to court after falling from a ladder in his home." Wikipedia
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"Jones went home and was up a ladder doing house repairs when he fell and
suffered injuries that eventually led to his death, on May 11, 1986. It’s more than a little coincidental that the only officer who always believed Bamber’s account of events should have died in a freak accident, but there is nothing obviously untoward in the incident, which I investigated thoroughly. It was without doubt a genuine accident, as the inquest into Jones’s death confirmed."
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:Tl_ccG59sGwJ:davidjamessmith.net/pdf_articles/DJS_bamber.pdf+Jeremy+Bamber+Jones+died+fall+ladder+broke&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESitCv820yTkN5ndupo7isLx6DNL8kKY9OcKGg64_kxHmnduZG8DTQ5j1m7ZCPZJzDjN3UgVNDpL5u4rWKD-lKM-B82szrdJwTg-5J2MVmafRay-EE_D75grzPic3EkLMF9Rl66v&sig=AHIEtbTbgkHSeEpGlrEFXUBICs5OTHzWtQ
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it is possible to die from falling off a ladder unlikely but it is possible
people die from falling out of bed very rare but it does happen.
it would depend weather he had any health problems that would have been aggravated by a fall.
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I hate heights and also ladders. I remember working in Braintree once 25 feet up signwriting a factory building and this wasp decided to investigate me. What do I do? Pot of paint in one hand and brush in the other. I took a swipe at the wasp, knocked my glasses off which smashed as the hit the ground and I nearly fell of the ladder as well.
I knew a farmer a few years back. I used to do all his sign work. He was working in a barn on a ladder. He must have fallen straight back and was killed instantly. Poor chap. I felt sorry for his wife. He was so young as well. Had a farm over Tolleshunt D'Arcy somewhere. In fact just a couple of miles away from White House Farm by coincidence.
I disliked climbing ladders too, until a few years ago when, along with some others, I abseiled from a c 120' high tower. The descent was brilliant, Grahame, I loved it, the only part I dreaded was climbing up to the top of the tower. The stairs stopped half way up, so we had to climb a perpendicular ladder up the wall of the tower. In the event, I surprised myself by enjoying the climb too - though I was wearing a safety harness attached to a hoist which would have held me if I'd fallen and the hoist would have pulled me up if my nerve had failed.
Once I got to the top I had to stand with my back to the outer wall of the tower and climb over the wall backwards, dropping my feet down on to a c 2-3' square concrete platform. Due to the curvature of the tower, I was then standing proud of the tower, with nothing around me to hold onto but fresh air until I leaned forward and grabbed the top of the tower wall to the right of me, before swinging my legs over and dropping down so that I was dangling from the tower by my harness before abseiling my way down.
Ladders don't scare me any longer.
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I hate heights and also ladders. I remember working in Braintree once 25 feet up signwriting a factory building and this wasp decided to investigate me. What do I do? Pot of paint in one hand and brush in the other. I took a swipe at the wasp, knocked my glasses off which smashed as the hit the ground and I nearly fell of the ladder as well.
I knew a farmer a few years back. I used to do all his sign work. He was working in a barn on a ladder. He must have fallen straight back and was killed instantly. Poor chap. I felt sorry for his wife. He was so young as well. Had a farm over Tolleshunt D'Arcy somewhere. In fact just a couple of miles away from White House Farm by coincidence.
Thanks for this, Grahame. Do you know the height he fell from, why he died? Was it the height, what he landed on, how he landed - head first? - or some other factor?
Hi Keira. I think it was around 20 feet and he fell backwards onto concrete and hit his head. I can't be entirely sure unless I contact his widow, but I don't feel it would be right to do that?
Thanks for this info, Grahame
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It has always sounded very fishy to me, to say the least >:( :(
To me too, Elizabeth
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At the time the press said the ladder broke, but that might have been the result of rumour or gossip.
There's mention of the incident here:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmhansrd/vo050209/halltext/50209h05.htm
Thanks, sarann
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Interesting that the outcome of the Inquest into Taff Jones' death was never made pubic. I believe it's the "norm" that Inquest outcomes are a matter of public record? I've heard that this is held under PII too.
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it is possible to die from falling off a ladder unlikely but it is possible
people die from falling out of bed very rare but it does happen.
it would depend weather he had any health problems that would have been aggravated by a fall.
I've briefly looked into this now and it appears that most deaths which occur as a result of falls from ladders are industrial injuries, often occurring on construction sites and usually involving falls from c 10' to 20' or so, with the victim falling head first onto concrete. There was one industrial death where the worker fell 6' onto a platform from a bridge.
Of course, thousands of people do survive such falls - though usually sustaining severe injuries.
The few deaths that occur at home due to falls from ladders are often real freak accidents, often involving men around retirement age doing DIY outdoors. One 88 year old man fell from his ladder, head first into a water butt, got wedged there and drowned.
So Taff Jones' death fall was one of just c 15 or so such fatal accidents which occur each year. Factors making it even more unlikely, Jones' fall was one of the very few fatal falls which occur at home, he was not a pensioner and he appears to have been working indoors.
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Chocho, did the author see the inquest report?
I wish I knew too, sarann.
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Interesting that the outcome of the Inquest into Taff Jones' death was never made pubic. I believe it's the "norm" that Inquest outcomes are a matter of public record? I've heard that this is held under PII too.
That's very interesting, Lorna. Is there any way of determining whether the findings of the Inquest are held under PII, do you think?
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The following graph shows UK with just 5 annual deaths as a result of falls from ladders:
Mortality Statistics Fall on and from ladder (most recent) by country
VIEW DATA: Totals Per capita
Definition Source Printable version
Bar Graph Pie Chart Map
Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount
# 1 United States: 355 deaths
# 2 Japan: 164 deaths
# 3 Germany: 138 deaths
# 4 Czech Republic: 66 deaths
# 5 Poland: 45 deaths
# 6 Canada: 39 deaths
# 7 Hungary: 35 deaths
= 8 Romania: 22 deaths
= 8 Austria: 22 deaths
= 10 Australia: 20 deaths
= 10 Spain: 20 deaths
# 12 Korea, South: 15 deaths
= 13 Colombia: 12 deaths
= 13 Slovakia: 12 deaths
= 13 Moldova: 12 deaths
= 16 Netherlands: 11 deaths
= 16 Finland: 11 deaths
= 16 Brazil: 11 deaths
# 19 Egypt: 9 deaths
= 20 Argentina: 6 deaths
= 20 Mexico: 6 deaths
= 20 Sweden: 6 deaths
# 23 United Kingdom: 5 deaths
= 24 Denmark: 4 deaths
= 24 Croatia: 4 deaths
= 24 New Zealand: 4 deaths
= 27 Cuba: 3 deaths
= 27 Slovenia: 3 deaths
= 27 Norway: 3 deaths
= 27 Latvia: 3 deaths
= 31 Ecuador: 2 deaths
= 31 Lithuania: 2 deaths
= 31 Venezuela: 2 deaths
= 31 Panama: 2 deaths
= 35 Paraguay: 1 deaths
= 35 Costa Rica: 1 deaths
= 35 Luxembourg: 1 deaths
= 35 Estonia: 1 deaths
= 35 Belize: 1 deaths
= 35 Georgia: 1 deaths
= 35 Malta: 1 deaths
= 35 Kuwait: 1 deaths
= 35 Puerto Rico: 1 deaths
Total: 1,083 deaths
Weighted average: 25.2 deaths
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:e3AM53LkrbMJ:www.nationmaster.com/graph/mor_fal_on_and_fro_lad-mortality-fall-ladder+ladder+fall+die+suspicious&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk
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Chochokeira - I'll have a look to see what I can find.
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Chochokeira - I'll have a look to see what I can find.
Thanks, Lorna
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I should have added that I think the papers said he was painting the gable end, ie outside - if that was reported accurately of course. Depends where the press got their info from. Re the figures above, I suppose we should take into account the popularity of DIY in different countries and general house maintenance trends in those countries; how many of those people were professionals or DIYers
Very true sarann. We don't know how fit he was or what his general health was either. Though we know he was a golfer, do golfer's tend to be fitter than average? Of course, Taff could have been stressed by having been moved off of the Bamber case. Was he on garden leave?
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My brother broke both his feet when he fell off a ladder. My grandmother died by falling out of bed. At those odds I think I'd better make sure my life insurance is up to date. ???
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i know the police do some terrible things but bumping off the boss no even i dont think they would do that.
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My brother broke both his feet when he fell off a ladder. My grandmother died by falling out of bed. At those odds I think I'd better make sure my life insurance is up to date. ???
And move to a bungalow in East Anglia!
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Is anyone actually suggesting foul play here. There's a few who seem to be skirting around making an accussation?
My theory is Emu did it. After he bumped off Rod Hull for continually sticking his arm up his arse, he was hired by Essex Police to get Taff Evans, lest he expose the massive conspiracy to frame poor innocent Jeremy. Emu is a known expert in making falls look like very unlucky accidents!
Can you prove my theory wrong?
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I have had at least two close calls from that list. I got struck by a lightning when I was thirteen, walking over a school-yard with an umbrella in a thunderstorm (stupid girl!) And I was almost hit in the head by a falling coconut at a beach restaurant in Brazil. It brushed my hair on the right side - REALLY close!
Sorry to go a bit off topic, but freak accidents do happen. The timing of Taff Jones´ death raises some suspicion though.
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Who is Taff Evans? ???
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I should have added that I think the papers said he was painting the gable end, ie outside - if that was reported accurately of course. Depends where the press got their info from. Re the figures above, I suppose we should take into account the popularity of DIY in different countries and general house maintenance trends in those countries; how many of those people were professionals or DIYers
Very true sarann. We don't know how fit he was or what his general health was either. Though we know he was a golfer, do golfer's tend to be fitter than average? Of course, Taff could have been stressed by having been moved off of the Bamber case. Was he on garden leave?
BT's a golfer. Does that give you a bit of a clue?!
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I should have added that I think the papers said he was painting the gable end, ie outside - if that was reported accurately of course. Depends where the press got their info from. Re the figures above, I suppose we should take into account the popularity of DIY in different countries and general house maintenance trends in those countries; how many of those people were professionals or DIYers
Very true sarann. We don't know how fit he was or what his general health was either. Though we know he was a golfer, do golfer's tend to be fitter than average? Of course, Taff could have been stressed by having been moved off of the Bamber case. Was he on garden leave?
BT's a golfer. Does that give you a bit of a clue?!
Hehehehehe ;D
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I should have added that I think the papers said he was painting the gable end, ie outside - if that was reported accurately of course. Depends where the press got their info from. Re the figures above, I suppose we should take into account the popularity of DIY in different countries and general house maintenance trends in those countries; how many of those people were professionals or DIYers
Very true sarann. We don't know how fit he was or what his general health was either. Though we know he was a golfer, do golfer's tend to be fitter than average? Of course, Taff could have been stressed by having been moved off of the Bamber case. Was he on garden leave?
BT's a golfer. Does that give you a bit of a clue?!
Who's BT Shona The Brave?
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Sarann
With comments like that you need to come to the wide awake club :D :D :D
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Shona
BT is going to be famous soon when we publish your blog ;D
Does he ever walk about naked 8)
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Is anyone actually suggesting foul play here.
I have often wondered why the accident as so close to the trial. It's almost as if the starts in their courses set themselves against Jeremy Bamber?
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The chances of Taff Jones meeting his Maker by falling off a ladder were so tiny because so few deaths happen that way. See the following statistics from a Daily Mirror article:
300,000,000/1 SHARK ATTACK (c 40 deaths per year)
300,000,000/1 FAIRGROUND ACCIDENT
250,000,000/1 FALLING COCONUT (c 150 deaths per year)
11,000,000/1 PLANE CRASH (c 1,300 deaths per year)
10,000,000/1 KILLED BY LIGHTNING (c 5 deaths per year)
10,000,000/1 KILLED BY THE ESCAPE OF RADIATION
9,300,000/1 DYING IN TERRORIST ATTACK
5,000,000/1 SCALDED BY HOT TAP WATER. (c 126 deaths per year)
4,400,000/1 LEFT-HANDED PEOPLE USING A RIGHT-HANDED PRODUCT
3,500,000/1 SNAKE BITES (c 25,000 deaths per year)
3,000,000/1 FOOD POISONING (c 200 deaths per year)
2,300,000/1 DYING FROM FALLING OFF A LADDER (c 15 deaths per year)
1,200 suffer serious injuries. A quarter of all falls happen off ladders.
2,000,000/1 DYING AFTER FALLING OUT OF BED (c 20 deaths)
685,000/1 DROWNING IN THE BATH (25 deaths per year)
500,000/1 BEING KILLED IN A TRAIN CRASH (c 13 deths per year)
43,500/1 BEING KILLED IN AN ACCIDENT AT WORK (c 300 deaths)
8,000/1 KILLED IN A ROAD ACCIDENT (c 1,500 per year)
5/1 DYING FROM CANCER ( c 130,000 deaths per year)
2.5/1 DYING FROM HEART ATTACK OR STROKE (c200,000 deaths per year)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-world/2008/05/30/scientists-calculate-odd-ways-to-die-115875-17495916/
You need to be very careful when trying to use statistics like this - they simply don't apply as quoted here.
The reality is that the chance of Taff Jones falling from a ladder and killing himself are much much higher than quoted here.
The reason is that these stats are the chances of any member of the UK population dying from a ladder fall in their lifetime. Now consider the following:
i) the vast majority of UK citizens never climb a ladder, and of those that do, only a fraction would ever climb to a height that would present a genuine risk of death.
ii) of those that do, a large fraction are "professionals" who know how to climb ladders as part of their job, and even though they do it more often, they are far less likely to fall.
Taff Jones was (i) a ladder climber who felt comfortable climbing to a death-risking height, and (ii) an amateur - he was therefore in a much higher risk group than the majority of the British population.
Ergo, his odds of dying from a ladder fall were nowhere near as unlikely as has been quoted above.
(it's like quoting the chances of any UK citizen dying of testicular cancer, and then applying that to a woman - it's meaningless unless you include more specific information on the risk group the person comes from)
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well itd be some woman if she died of bollock cancer.
evening bob :D
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Brilliant, Andy!!
And hallo again, Bob. It's been a while.
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The chances of Taff Jones meeting his Maker by falling off a ladder were so tiny because so few deaths happen that way. See the following statistics from a Daily Mirror article:
300,000,000/1 SHARK ATTACK (c 40 deaths per year)
300,000,000/1 FAIRGROUND ACCIDENT
250,000,000/1 FALLING COCONUT (c 150 deaths per year)
11,000,000/1 PLANE CRASH (c 1,300 deaths per year)
10,000,000/1 KILLED BY LIGHTNING (c 5 deaths per year)
10,000,000/1 KILLED BY THE ESCAPE OF RADIATION
9,300,000/1 DYING IN TERRORIST ATTACK
5,000,000/1 SCALDED BY HOT TAP WATER. (c 126 deaths per year)
4,400,000/1 LEFT-HANDED PEOPLE USING A RIGHT-HANDED PRODUCT
3,500,000/1 SNAKE BITES (c 25,000 deaths per year)
3,000,000/1 FOOD POISONING (c 200 deaths per year)
2,300,000/1 DYING FROM FALLING OFF A LADDER (c 15 deaths per year)
1,200 suffer serious injuries. A quarter of all falls happen off ladders.
2,000,000/1 DYING AFTER FALLING OUT OF BED (c 20 deaths)
685,000/1 DROWNING IN THE BATH (25 deaths per year)
500,000/1 BEING KILLED IN A TRAIN CRASH (c 13 deaths per year)
43,500/1 BEING KILLED IN AN ACCIDENT AT WORK (c 300 deaths)
8,000/1 KILLED IN A ROAD ACCIDENT (c 1,500 per year)
5/1 DYING FROM CANCER ( c 130,000 deaths per year)
2.5/1 DYING FROM HEART ATTACK OR STROKE (c200,000 deaths per year)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-world/2008/05/30/scientists-calculate-odd-ways-to-die-115875-17495916/
You need to be very careful when trying to use statistics like this - they simply don't apply as quoted here.
The reality is that the chance of Taff Jones falling from a ladder and killing himself are much much higher than quoted here.
The reason is that these stats are the chances of any member of the UK population dying from a ladder fall in their lifetime. Now consider the following:
i) the vast majority of UK citizens never climb a ladder, and of those that do, only a fraction would ever climb to a height that would present a genuine risk of death.ii)
of those that do, a large fraction are "professionals" who know how to climb ladders as part of their job, and even though they do it more often, they are far less likely to fall.
Taff Jones was (i) a ladder climber who felt comfortable climbing to a death-risking height, and (ii) an amateur - he was therefore in a much higher risk group than the majority of the British population.
Ergo, his odds of dying from a ladder fall were nowhere near as unlikely as has been quoted above.
(it's like quoting the chances of any UK citizen dying of testicular cancer, and then applying that to a woman - it's meaningless unless you include more specific information on the risk group the person comes from)
Thank you for your response regarding this, Bob, but what you'd stated in not actually correct.
1. Employees have died falling 6' from ladders
2. In 2009/2010, falls from ladders at work "resulted in 16 deaths"
I'm in my office at present, so don't have time to search for the figure for total (industrial and domestic) deaths resulting from falls from ladders for that year, however, a quick look at a number of years suggests that total deaths tend to be less than 20 per in any one year - which suggests that the overwhelming majority of deaths are industrial, not domestic.
Those 16 industrial deaths in 2009-10 would have been the overwhelming majority of deaths for that year.
3. Taff Jones' death was therefore one of a very small number of deaths resulting from falls from ladders, the number is even smaller when the tiny percentage of domestic deaths involving ladders are taken into account.
You are right to point out that there are complex issues involved, however, key issues appear to be whether the ladders were properly maintained, whether the person who falls hits their head, how hard and fast they fall and what they land on or in rather than expertise with ladders, odd as it may seem. Thousands of people survive falls from ladders every year.
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I forgot to include the following link, Bob:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com:80/search?q=cache:eAsg2nEOWCkJ:www.aimclaims.co.uk/ladder-accidents/+UK+deaths+falls+from+ladders+2010&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk
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The chances of Taff Jones meeting his Maker by falling off a ladder were so tiny because so few deaths happen that way. See the following statistics from a Daily Mirror article:
300,000,000/1 SHARK ATTACK (c 40 deaths per year)
300,000,000/1 FAIRGROUND ACCIDENT
250,000,000/1 FALLING COCONUT (c 150 deaths per year)
11,000,000/1 PLANE CRASH (c 1,300 deaths per year)
10,000,000/1 KILLED BY LIGHTNING (c 5 deaths per year)
10,000,000/1 KILLED BY THE ESCAPE OF RADIATION
9,300,000/1 DYING IN TERRORIST ATTACK
5,000,000/1 SCALDED BY HOT TAP WATER. (c 126 deaths per year)
4,400,000/1 LEFT-HANDED PEOPLE USING A RIGHT-HANDED PRODUCT
3,500,000/1 SNAKE BITES (c 25,000 deaths per year)
3,000,000/1 FOOD POISONING (c 200 deaths per year)
2,300,000/1 DYING FROM FALLING OFF A LADDER (c 15 deaths per year)
1,200 suffer serious injuries. A quarter of all falls happen off ladders.
2,000,000/1 DYING AFTER FALLING OUT OF BED (c 20 deaths)
685,000/1 DROWNING IN THE BATH (25 deaths per year)
500,000/1 BEING KILLED IN A TRAIN CRASH (c 13 deaths per year)
43,500/1 BEING KILLED IN AN ACCIDENT AT WORK (c 300 deaths)
8,000/1 KILLED IN A ROAD ACCIDENT (c 1,500 per year)
5/1 DYING FROM CANCER ( c 130,000 deaths per year)
2.5/1 DYING FROM HEART ATTACK OR STROKE (c200,000 deaths per year)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-world/2008/05/30/scientists-calculate-odd-ways-to-die-115875-17495916/
You need to be very careful when trying to use statistics like this - they simply don't apply as quoted here.
The reality is that the chance of Taff Jones falling from a ladder and killing himself are much much higher than quoted here.
The reason is that these stats are the chances of any member of the UK population dying from a ladder fall in their lifetime. Now consider the following:
i) the vast majority of UK citizens never climb a ladder, and of those that do, only a fraction would ever climb to a height that would present a genuine risk of death.ii)
of those that do, a large fraction are "professionals" who know how to climb ladders as part of their job, and even though they do it more often, they are far less likely to fall.
Taff Jones was (i) a ladder climber who felt comfortable climbing to a death-risking height, and (ii) an amateur - he was therefore in a much higher risk group than the majority of the British population.
Ergo, his odds of dying from a ladder fall were nowhere near as unlikely as has been quoted above.
(it's like quoting the chances of any UK citizen dying of testicular cancer, and then applying that to a woman - it's meaningless unless you include more specific information on the risk group the person comes from)
Thank you for your response regarding this, Bob, but what you'd stated in not actually correct.
1. Employees have died falling 6' from ladders
2. In 2009/2010, falls from ladders at work "resulted in 16 deaths"
I'm in my office at present, so don't have time to search for the figure for total (industrial and domestic) deaths resulting from falls from ladders for that year, however, a quick look at a number of years suggests that total deaths tend to be less than 20 per in any one year - which suggests that the overwhelming majority of deaths are industrial, not domestic.
Those 16 industrial deaths in 2009-10 would have been the overwhelming majority of deaths for that year.
3. Taff Jones' death was therefore one of a very small number of deaths resulting from falls from ladders, the number is even smaller when the tiny percentage of domestic deaths involving ladders are taken into account.
You are right to point out that there are complex issues involved, however, key issues appear to be whether the ladders were properly maintained, whether the person who falls hits their head, how hard and fast they fall and what they land on or in rather than expertise with ladders, odd as it may seem. Thousands of people survive falls from ladders every year.
Keira - I am not convinced you are correct in saying I am incorrect.
Your link to the ambulance-chasers' website appears to relate only to deaths in the workplace.
I am finding it difficult to get UK-based information regarding deaths from non-workplace-related ladder falls (i.e. DIYers etc) - if you have any I would be interested to see them.
I did find this detailed study from Australia though. I doubt our pattern of ladder use exactly matches theirs but it can't be a million miles away (in fact there will be proportionally a lot more multi-story properties in the UK than Australia so our stats could well be worse than theirs).
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/186_01_010107/mit10419_fm.html
The relevant part for this discussion is:
Activity at time of injury Presentations Major Trauma
Working for income 851 (18.7%) 33 (20.6%)
Unpaid work 657 (14.4%) 77 (48.1%)
Other 3045 (66.9%) 50 (31.3%)
IMHO - this strongly suggests that non-professional use of ladders is by far the most significant contributor of ladder accidents.
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Can anyone put a picture up of the gable end he fell from ?
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The chances of Taff Jones meeting his Maker by falling off a ladder were so tiny because so few deaths happen that way. See the following statistics from a Daily Mirror article:
300,000,000/1 SHARK ATTACK (c 40 deaths per year)
300,000,000/1 FAIRGROUND ACCIDENT
250,000,000/1 FALLING COCONUT (c 150 deaths per year)
11,000,000/1 PLANE CRASH (c 1,300 deaths per year)
10,000,000/1 KILLED BY LIGHTNING (c 5 deaths per year)
10,000,000/1 KILLED BY THE ESCAPE OF RADIATION
9,300,000/1 DYING IN TERRORIST ATTACK
5,000,000/1 SCALDED BY HOT TAP WATER. (c 126 deaths per year)
4,400,000/1 LEFT-HANDED PEOPLE USING A RIGHT-HANDED PRODUCT
3,500,000/1 SNAKE BITES (c 25,000 deaths per year)
3,000,000/1 FOOD POISONING (c 200 deaths per year)
2,300,000/1 DYING FROM FALLING OFF A LADDER (c 15 deaths per year)
1,200 suffer serious injuries. A quarter of all falls happen off ladders.
2,000,000/1 DYING AFTER FALLING OUT OF BED (c 20 deaths)
685,000/1 DROWNING IN THE BATH (25 deaths per year)
500,000/1 BEING KILLED IN A TRAIN CRASH (c 13 deaths per year)
43,500/1 BEING KILLED IN AN ACCIDENT AT WORK (c 300 deaths)
8,000/1 KILLED IN A ROAD ACCIDENT (c 1,500 per year)
5/1 DYING FROM CANCER ( c 130,000 deaths per year)
2.5/1 DYING FROM HEART ATTACK OR STROKE (c200,000 deaths per year)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-world/2008/05/30/scientists-calculate-odd-ways-to-die-115875-17495916/
You need to be very careful when trying to use statistics like this - they simply don't apply as quoted here.
The reality is that the chance of Taff Jones falling from a ladder and killing himself are much much higher than quoted here.
The reason is that these stats are the chances of any member of the UK population dying from a ladder fall in their lifetime. Now consider the following:
i) the vast majority of UK citizens never climb a ladder, and of those that do, only a fraction would ever climb to a height that would present a genuine risk of death.ii)
of those that do, a large fraction are "professionals" who know how to climb ladders as part of their job, and even though they do it more often, they are far less likely to fall.
Taff Jones was (i) a ladder climber who felt comfortable climbing to a death-risking height, and (ii) an amateur - he was therefore in a much higher risk group than the majority of the British population.
Ergo, his odds of dying from a ladder fall were nowhere near as unlikely as has been quoted above.
(it's like quoting the chances of any UK citizen dying of testicular cancer, and then applying that to a woman - it's meaningless unless you include more specific information on the risk group the person comes from)
Thank you for your response regarding this, Bob, but what you'd stated in not actually correct.
1. Employees have died falling 6' from ladders
2. In 2009/2010, falls from ladders at work "resulted in 16 deaths"
I'm in my office at present, so don't have time to search for the figure for total (industrial and domestic) deaths resulting from falls from ladders for that year, however, a quick look at a number of years suggests that total deaths tend to be less than 20 per in any one year - which suggests that the overwhelming majority of deaths are industrial, not domestic.
Those 16 industrial deaths in 2009-10 would have been the overwhelming majority of deaths for that year.
3. Taff Jones' death was therefore one of a very small number of deaths resulting from falls from ladders, the number is even smaller when the tiny percentage of domestic deaths involving ladders are taken into account.
You are right to point out that there are complex issues involved, however, key issues appear to be whether the ladders were properly maintained, whether the person who falls hits their head, how hard and fast they fall and what they land on or in rather than expertise with ladders, odd as it may seem. Thousands of people survive falls from ladders every year.
Keira - I am not convinced you are correct in saying I am incorrect.
Your link to the ambulance-chasers' website appears to relate only to deaths in the workplace.
I am finding it difficult to get UK-based information regarding deaths from non-workplace-related ladder falls (i.e. DIYers etc) - if you have any I would be interested to see them.
I did find this detailed study from Australia though. I doubt our pattern of ladder use exactly matches theirs but it can't be a million miles away (in fact there will be proportionally a lot more multi-story properties in the UK than Australia so our stats could well be worse than theirs).
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/186_01_010107/mit10419_fm.html
The relevant part for this discussion is:
Activity at time of injury Presentations Major Trauma
Working for income 851 (18.7%) 33 (20.6%)
Unpaid work 657 (14.4%) 77 (48.1%)
Other 3045 (66.9%) 50 (31.3%)
IMHO - this strongly suggests that non-professional use of ladders is by far the most significant contributor of ladder accidents.
Hi Bob,
Thanks for finding this. You're right, it's very hard to find stats relating to this. The only general stats I've found are the mirror ones above.
I have to go to a protest meeting this evening and may not be back until late, but I shall get back to you on this once I've had a chance to look at the attachment.
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Can anyone put a picture up of the gable end he fell from ?
I'm afraid not. This is the only known picture of the 'tragic accident', and unfortunately his gable end isn't in shot.
(http://files.tony2nice.com/wp-content/uploads/249222040-19131457.jpg)
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Can anyone put a picture up of the gable end he fell from ?
I'm afraid not. This is the only known picture of the 'tragic accident', and unfortunately his gable end isn't in shot.
(http://files.tony2nice.com/wp-content/uploads/249222040-19131457.jpg)
Haha Brilliant Bob !!
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hi bob :) youre my new forum boyfriend ;)
just thought i should let you know :o
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hi bob :) youre my new forum boyfriend ;)
just thought i should let you know :o
Hey, YOU´re quick, huh! :o
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he he, well paulg bleeding left me again!! so i had to grab bob reet quick before he sods off aswell ;)
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he he, well paulg bleeding left me again!! so i had to grab bob reet quick before he sods off aswell ;)
Yeah, I managed to chase off my board sweetheart yesterday in a heartbeat, really. I know how THAT feels! :'(
It´ll probably be a couple of years till wichfinder will be back here. I really blew that one big time! :'( :'( :'(
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I wonder how many witches he finds though - he can´t spell it right. That worries me.... ???
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Mmmmm "The Daily Mirror" that fountain of statistical immutable knowledge. That bedrock of indisputable fact.
The apex of journalistic nirvana and the envy of Fleet Street
It must be strange that a man falls off a ladder and in doing so dies. As tragic as that is, it is hardly stuff of Lee Harvey Oswald-type conspiracy is it?
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Mmmmm "The Daily Mirror" that fountain of statistical immutable knowledge. That bedrock of indisputable fact.
The apex of journalistic nirvana and the envy of Fleet Street
It must be strange that a man falls off a ladder and in doing so dies. As tragic as that is, it is hardly stuff of Lee Harvey Oswald-type conspiracy is it?
Maybe you need to read up on the power behind funny handshakes? ;)
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Mmmmm "The Daily Mirror" that fountain of statistical immutable knowledge. That bedrock of indisputable fact.
The apex of journalistic nirvana and the envy of Fleet Street
It must be strange that a man falls off a ladder and in doing so dies. As tragic as that is, it is hardly stuff of Lee Harvey Oswald-type conspiracy is it?
"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.
The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous.
Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U97lbv0_A2I
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The Scott Lomax book, which I've just begun reading, states that Taff Jones' death was particularly puzzling because Taff fell just a short distance from a step ladder while painting his house.
A step ladder...
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The Scott Lomax book, which I've just begun reading, states that Taff Jones' death was particularly puzzling because Taff fell just a short distance from a step ladder while painting his house.
A step ladder...
Taff was just 35 when he died, according to Lomax.
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The Scott Lomax book, which I've just begun reading, states that Taff Jones' death was particularly puzzling because Taff fell just a short distance from a step ladder while painting his house.
A step ladder...
Taff was just 35 when he died, according to Lomax.
I have a Chinese friend who laughed at young people in England falling over. She said, "Why young people in this country fall over? In China only old people fall over". I told her that it is because most Chinese people are closer to the ground than English people. ;)
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The Scott Lomax book, which I've just begun reading, states that Taff Jones' death was particularly puzzling because Taff fell just a short distance from a step ladder while painting his house.
A step ladder...
Didn´t know that it was a step ladder! Are there any statistics of how many people have died falling off a step ladder?!
Makes it even more bizarre - and I always pictured him as an old man. 35, falling off a step ladder! Are there any reports of his injuries?
That would be interesting to read!!
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Mmmmm "The Daily Mirror" that fountain of statistical immutable knowledge. That bedrock of indisputable fact.
The apex of journalistic nirvana and the envy of Fleet Street
It must be strange that a man falls off a ladder and in doing so dies. As tragic as that is, it is hardly stuff of Lee Harvey Oswald-type conspiracy is it?
"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.
The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous.
Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U97lbv0_A2I
what did all that mean :-\
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Mmmmm "The Daily Mirror" that fountain of statistical immutable knowledge. That bedrock of indisputable fact.
The apex of journalistic nirvana and the envy of Fleet Street
It must be strange that a man falls off a ladder and in doing so dies. As tragic as that is, it is hardly stuff of Lee Harvey Oswald-type conspiracy is it?
"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.
The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous.
Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U97lbv0_A2I
what did all that mean :-\
It's from 'V for Vendetta' - a top film IMHO (and presumably in Keira's!)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/
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never heard of it bob ;)
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never heard of it bob ;)
You should get it out on DVD - it's a brilliant "lone man fights for freedom in a corrupt society" movie - fitting in many respects for the pro-Bambers :D
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nah i would only get bored ;)
ever seen dead mans shoes? cracking film.
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Mmmmm "The Daily Mirror" that fountain of statistical immutable knowledge. That bedrock of indisputable fact.
The apex of journalistic nirvana and the envy of Fleet Street
It must be strange that a man falls off a ladder and in doing so dies. As tragic as that is, it is hardly stuff of Lee Harvey Oswald-type conspiracy is it?
"Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.
The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous.
Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U97lbv0_A2I
what did all that mean :-\
It's from 'V for Vendetta' - a top film IMHO (and presumably in Keira's!)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/
Oh, yes! I love V for Vendetta, it's a brilliant film!
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Regarding ladder statistics i know this topic is a little old, but someone has posts an infographic on ladder statistics its in conjunction with Rospa, and has some good data on ladder injurys it might help someone
ladder (http://www.ladders-direct.com/blog/infographic-ladder-injury-statistics/)injury Infographic
Source
http://www.ladders-direct.com/blog/infographic-ladder-injury-statistics/ (http://www.ladders-direct.com/blog/infographic-ladder-injury-statistics/)
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"Jones went home and was up a ladder doing house repairs when he fell and
suffered injuries that eventually led to his death, on May 11, 1986. It’s more than a little coincidental that the only officer who always believed Bamber’s account of events should have died in a freak accident, but there is nothing obviously untoward in the incident, which I investigated thoroughly. It was without doubt a genuine accident, as the inquest into Jones’s death confirmed."
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:Tl_ccG59sGwJ:davidjamessmith.net/pdf_articles/DJS_bamber.pdf+Jeremy+Bamber+Jones+died+fall+ladder+broke&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESitCv820yTkN5ndupo7isLx6DNL8kKY9OcKGg64_kxHmnduZG8DTQ5j1m7ZCPZJzDjN3UgVNDpL5u4rWKD-lKM-B82szrdJwTg-5J2MVmafRay-EE_D75grzPic3EkLMF9Rl66v&sig=AHIEtbTbgkHSeEpGlrEFXUBICs5OTHzWtQ
I'm sorry that Taff Jones died but I'm wondering what difference it would have made to the trial had he testified. The Defence's strategy was not to put the Police in a bad light as this would only cast doubt on the "four murders and a suicide" theory which they had originally expounded. The dossier of evidence against Sheila had been stolen from a Policeman's attic I believe so it would only have been Taff Jones relating his original theories in the first few weeks of the case from memory,after which he was removed from the case and superseded by Asst CC Peter Simpson.
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I'm sorry that Taff Jones died but I'm wondering what difference it would have made to the trial had he testified. The Defence's strategy was not to put the Police in a bad light as this would only cast doubt on the "four murders and a suicide" theory which they had originally expounded. The dossier of evidence against Sheila had been stolen from a Policeman's attic I believe so it would only have been Taff Jones relating his original theories in the first few weeks of the case from memory,after which he was removed from the case and superseded by Asst CC Peter Simpson.
Hello lovely Steve.
The deceased officer had notched up over 30 years of service to the force,in which he'd worked himself up to the status in his profession. What I'd have called," one of the old school ". These officers were far more intelligent to my mind as there was no technology when they began their careers,so therefore they all used what they were born with,,,their brains.
The whole trial would have been conducted with more expertise than it was,and Jeremy wouldn't have been convicted,simple as that.
" Taff " Jones had" seen it all" before during his service,and therefore was able to work out pretty well straight away what had occurred at WHF. I'm sure if he'd have thought that Jeremy had had any dealings with the case,then Jones would have said.
Why do you think that the relatives were unhappy about that decision.? Because being as they weren't regular visitors to WHF,they knew sweet f.a. about the family,or its situation with Sheila.
All they had to offer was a trumped-up version of Jeremys' " greed " and the fact that they'd heard all sorts of tales from various sources.
I'd like to see the lot of them sit a polygraph test.
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Hello lovely Steve.
The deceased officer had notched up over 30 years of service to the force,in which he'd worked himself up to the status in his profession. What I'd have called," one of the old school ". These officers were far more intelligent to my mind as there was no technology when they began their careers,so therefore they all used what they were born with,,,their brains.
The whole trial would have been conducted with more expertise than it was,and Jeremy wouldn't have been convicted,simple as that.
" Taff " Jones had" seen it all" before during his service,and therefore was able to work out pretty well straight away what had occurred at WHF. I'm sure if he'd have thought that Jeremy had had any dealings with the case,then Jones would have said.
Why do you think that the relatives were unhappy about that decision.? Because being as they weren't regular visitors to WHF,they knew sweet f.a. about the family,or its situation with Sheila.
All they had to offer was a trumped-up version of Jeremys' " greed " and the fact that they'd heard all sorts of tales from various sources.
I'd like to see the lot of them sit a polygraph test.
Taff Jones made a mess:he made up his mind it was "four murders and a suicide" on the plum tones of an Essex public schoolboy,destroyed vital blood spatter evidence by burning carpets and bedding and boxed himself into a corner when the relatives started to question his decision. He let Jeremy Bamber off the hook in his first questioning,giving Jeremy false hope that the Police had nothing on him,and by the time Taff's superiors had cottoned on to his incompetence the die was cast,Taff was removed with the corresponding loss of face this entailed,from which I doubt he ever recovered.
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Taff Jones made a mess:he made up his mind it was "four murders and a suicide" on the plum tones of an Essex public schoolboy,destroyed vital blood spatter evidence by burning carpets and bedding and boxed himself into a corner when the relatives started to question his decision. He let Jeremy Bamber off the hook in his first questioning,giving Jeremy false hope that the Police had nothing on him,and by the time Taff's superiors had cottoned on to his incompetence the die was cast,Taff was removed with the corresponding loss of face this entailed,from which I doubt he ever recovered.
Steve,he didn't make any more a mess than the next lot who took over. I think everyone will agree that it was more than a botched investigation,and I believe that Jeremy should have had a re-trial,given that the original one was so unfair as well as being unsafe in many ways.
Steve,I know many people who have " plum tones " but they're by no means murderers/esses. It doesn't mean a thing.
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Taff Jones made a mess:he made up his mind it was "four murders and a suicide" on the plum tones of an Essex public schoolboy,destroyed vital blood spatter evidence by burning carpets and bedding and boxed himself into a corner when the relatives started to question his decision. He let Jeremy Bamber off the hook in his first questioning,giving Jeremy false hope that the Police had nothing on him,and by the time Taff's superiors had cottoned on to his incompetence the die was cast,Taff was removed with the corresponding loss of face this entailed,from which I doubt he ever recovered.
Presumably then, Kenneally must have also made up his mind on the plum tones of a public schoolboy?
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Taff suffered Multiple injuries including a Fractured Skull....
Who was with him when this happened and who decided his death was accident?
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Although they may be rare - they obviously so happen. End of.
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Taff suffered Multiple injuries including a Fractured Skull....
Who was with him when this happened and who decided his death was accident?
The coroner,I suppose.
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Taff suffered Multiple injuries including a Fractured Skull....
Who was with him when this happened and who decided his death was accident?
Hi Bambergate :) You have mail :) :) :) :)
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Taff suffered Multiple injuries including a Fractured Skull....
Who was with him when this happened and who decided his death was accident?
Would EP have investigated the accident / death as per their normal procedures for anybody who would die an accidental death within their force area?
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How strange that his diary/notebook was stolen too,,,,and from the loft.? What was it doing up there.?
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did taff jones have any relatives.
and if so what do they say about the verdict.
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did taff jones have any relatives.
and if so what do they say about the verdict.
Taff Jones was married. His wife was out when the accident occured. I believe she has not said anything about it.
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Would EP have investigated the accident / death as per their normal procedures for anybody who would die an accidental death within their force area?
Hi Roch...I did a bit of research on here and noted that Keira had posted and said she had thoroughly looked into Taff's death and she believed that it was an accident and there was nothing suspicious about it....It just happened at the wrong time...... :) :) :)
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Taff Jones was married. His wife was out when the accident occured. I believe she has not said anything about it.
well i guess she must accept the verdict then.
and if she excepts then i think it must be the correct verdict.
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Hi Roch...I did a bit of research on here and noted that Keira had posted and said she had thoroughly looked into Taff's death and she believed that it was an accident and there was nothing suspicious about it....It just happened at the wrong time...... :) :) :)
Hey,Patti,,so long as it wasn't the same coroner that Ian Thomlinson had.
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Hey,Patti,,so long as it wasn't the same coroner that Ian Thomlinson had.
Hi Lookout, Taff had 3 grown up children and a wife...I feel sure they would have pursed it if there had been any suspicion of foul play...I Know someone who is pursuing this and approached me for help.....You know what I am like and as soon as this friend has finished this line of investigation it will be up to them to publish their findings....You know that it is impossible for me to do this....lololol trust me! :) :) :)
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yes i agrea i cant belive the family wouldent kick up a fuss if the death was suspicious.
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Hi Lookout, Taff had 3 grown up children and a wife...I feel sure they would have pursed it if there had been any suspicion of foul play...I Know someone who is pursuing this and approached me for help.....You know what I am like and as soon as this friend has finished this line of investigation it will be up to them to publish their findings....You know that it is impossible for me to do this....lololol trust me! :) :) :)
The thing is Patti,that years ago they'd have been more likely to have got away with dodgy evidence,as it was unheard of compared to today where people are more aware of corruption,especially where the police are concerned. In Ian Thomlinsons' case,there'd been corruption in the officer that said " he only pushed the man ".The coroner had said natural causes,because the man suffered medical problems anyway,so how easy was that.? But the family weren't happy with the outcome and sought for the truth.
To cut a long story short,Ian had suffered a ruptured liver because he'd been bashed,not just pushed,so as a consequence,the coroner was dismissed from his job.
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Hi Roch...I did a bit of research on here and noted that Keira had posted and said she had thoroughly looked into Taff's death and she believed that it was an accident and there was nothing suspicious about it....It just happened at the wrong time...... :) :) :)
Well, accidents do happen Patti.
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The thing is Patti,that years ago they'd have been more likely to have got away with dodgy evidence,as it was unheard of compared to today where people are more aware of corruption,especially where the police are concerned. In Ian Thomlinsons' case,there'd been corruption in the officer that said " he only pushed the man ".The coroner had said natural causes,because the man suffered medical problems anyway,so how easy was that.? But the family weren't happy with the outcome and sought for the truth.
To cut a long story short,Ian had suffered a ruptured liver because he'd been bashed,not just pushed,so as a consequence,the coroner was dismissed from his job.
I see where you are coming from. Sometimes we look into things too deep, I think...It is sad that Taff died at such a crucial time. We don't know if he was alone or with the family when the accident happened......There should be local newspaper reports held in the main library either on film or fiche....giving more details of the accident....I doubt if a coroners reports exists, for they get destroyed after 10 years....If there was an inquest it would have been in the local newspaper.....So when are we going to Essex to have a look...lol :) :) :) :) :)
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I see where you are coming from. Sometimes we look into things too deep, I think...It is sad that Taff died at such a crucial time. We don't know if he was alone or with the family when the accident happened......There should be local newspaper reports held in the main library either on film or fiche....giving more details of the accident....I doubt if a coroners reports exists, for they get destroyed after 10 years....If there was an inquest it would have been in the local newspaper.....So when are we going to Essex to have a look...lol :) :) :) :) :)
It was in the newspaper Patti,I remember seeing it along with a pic of himself,and a few words about his work over the years.
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It was in the newspaper Patti,I remember seeing it along with a pic of himself,and a few words about his work over the years.
It's on the last fell of ladder thread.
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It was in the newspaper Patti,I remember seeing it along with a pic of himself,and a few words about his work over the years.
Hi Lookout, do you mean this? ;) http://www.essex.police.uk/museum/thelaw/n_8605lw.pdf
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The thing is Patti,that years ago they'd have been more likely to have got away with dodgy evidence,as it was unheard of compared to today where people are more aware of corruption,especially where the police are concerned. In Ian Thomlinsons' case,there'd been corruption in the officer that said " he only pushed the man ".The coroner had said natural causes,because the man suffered medical problems anyway,so how easy was that.? But the family weren't happy with the outcome and sought for the truth.
To cut a long story short,Ian had suffered a ruptured liver because he'd been bashed,not just pushed,so as a consequence,the coroner was dismissed from his job.
Wasn't it the pathologist who got struck off? I don't recall seeing anything about the coroner being dismissed, he just reaches a verdict based on the evidence available to him.
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Hi Lookout, do you mean this? ;) http://www.essex.police.uk/museum/thelaw/n_8605lw.pdf
Yes,Patti,that's it. I remember the bit about him being commended 10 times. Not bad for someone who allegedly got the 4 murders and a suicide wrong.
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Wasn't it the pathologist who got struck off? I don't recall seeing anything about the coroner being dismissed, he just reaches a verdict based on the evidence available to him.
The thing is Patti,that years ago they'd have been more likely to have got away with dodgy evidence,as it was unheard of compared to today where people are more aware of corruption,especially where the police are concerned. In Ian Thomlinsons' case,there'd been corruption in the officer that said " he only pushed the man ".The coroner had said natural causes,because the man suffered medical problems anyway,so how easy was that.? But the family weren't happy with the outcome and sought for the truth.
To cut a long story short,Ian had suffered a ruptured liver because he'd been bashed,not just pushed,so as a consequence,the coroner was dismissed from his job.
The Ian Tomlinson story does give quite an interesting insight into the machinations of police corruption , or how police cock up , depending on your viewpoint . ( cock up or conspiracy ?)
The pathologist used by the police for the post mortem , Freddy Patel , was basically a pathologist who appears to be used when the police "know what verdict they want" . In the case of a civilian dying after contact with a police officer I think the police would "want" a natural causes verdict . Patel duly gave a verdict of death by natural causes , a verdict later disputed by two further pathologists .
At the inquest into Tomlinson's death a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing by a police officer . This is what makes Simon Harwood's acquittal all the more surprising .
A Medical Practitioner's Tribunal found 68 failings in Patel's work on the Tomlinson case and he was found to "dishonest" and "liable to bring his profession into disrepute" .
In Simon Harwood's trial for manslaughter a number of fellow officers evidence against Harwood testifying to his thuggery was not allowed to be heard . This decision was made in chambers, for reasons that don't really stand up to scrutiny, by justice Fulford . The cause of death was also somehow portrayed as being unclear in the manslaughter trial , this despite the previous inquest verdict .I believe that the judge created this confusion again with decisions made in chambers that again are not seen as reasonable by many .
Some would believe that using a "dishonest" pathologist, which then creates a conflict of opinions with subsequent post mortem verdicts by more reputable pathologists was a genuine and honest but misguided decision by the police . Those of a more cynical disposition would believe it to be a deliberate attempt to "mucky the waters" should any challenge be made . Getting the fix in early .
This sort of thing happens far too often IMO to believe the cock up theory .
The trial judge appears to have been "generous" to the defence in relation to ruling evidence inadmissible .The fact that Patel had been suspended twice previously for "mistakes" in other post mortem examinations is one gem as ruled by the judge . The judge seems to have bent over backwards in order to be able to portray Patel as somehow credible in the manslaughter trial .
Again depending on your viewpoint , this is either the judge making a honest and fair decision on evidence admissibility or an establishment stooge doing his masters bidding and making sure that the "correct" verdict is returned .
Sorry for being long winded but lookout raised an interesting point and I believe the corruption goes much deeper .
In the Ian Tomlinson case it takes a generous view to believe that no corruption happened . All implicitly understood of course .
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Which post? Mine is still there.
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Which post? Mine is still there.
I think Bambergate wants it kept on topic but I meant the leggings post on here. I meant to keep it up and delete the others elsewhere.
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Ah ok.
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Leggings? Did I miss something or am I still asleep.
Interesting post Gringo - I haven't looked at the Ian Tomlinson case in any depth, other than to be generally p*ssed off at Harwood getting away with it.
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Leggings? Did I miss something or am I still asleep.
Interesting post Gringo - I haven't looked at the Ian Tomlinson case in any depth, other than to be generally p*ssed off at Harwood getting away with it.
Is that the man that was clouted by the copper, and who died later?
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Is that the man that was clouted by the copper, and who died later?
I hope so, or I really am still asleep...
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Is that the man that was clouted by the copper, and who died later?
Leggings? Did I miss something or am I still asleep.
Interesting post Gringo - I haven't looked at the Ian Tomlinson case in any depth, other than to be generally p*ssed off at Harwood getting away with it.
Yes it is Andrea and a interesting read if you follow the twists and turns . If you do look further Bridget you will only get pissed off more .
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Yes it is Andrea and a interesting read if you follow the twists and turns . If you do look further Bridget you will only get pissed off more .
I'm sure - can you recommend a particular site for reading or do I have to trawl Google for it?
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I'm sure - can you recommend a particular site for reading or do I have to trawl Google for it?
The Guardian is probably the most informative source but there are many others . Happy ? reading
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The Guardian is probably the most informative source but there are many others . Happy ? reading
Thanks. It'll be your fault if I wind up grumpy...
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Thanks. It'll be your fault if I wind up grumpy...
Sorry in advance then .
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Hi Bridget Patti told me you are always grumpy :)
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Hi Bridget Patti told me you are always grumpy :)
No it's Patti that's always grumpy, she just disguises it well with these:
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :P :P :P :P :P :P :-* :-* :-* :-*
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No it's Patti that's always grumpy, she just disguises it well with these:
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :P :P :P :P :P :P :-* :-* :-* :-*
Not true... >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( Stop picking on me! :-\ :-\ :P :o ;)