Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on August 29, 2022, 03:35:PM
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Scenario very short.
No times mentioned. Such as when Sheila got up & when Nevill started engaging downstairs.
No build up to Nevill calling Bamber.
No explanation of why Nevill let Sheila load rifle.
If Sheila loaded rifle when Nevill was not in kitchen, does not say why Sheila did not open fire downstairs/Nevill did not reclaim while fully fit.
No explanation of why Nevill did not put rifle away when arriving downstairs.
No explanation of what woke Nevill.
Relying on Nevill not waking June for assistance.
Relying on June not waking simultaneously with Nevill.
Relying on June or the twins not waking while Sheila gets so bad Nevill decides to call Bamber's AM.
No explanation of why Nevill let Sheila go upstairs with a loaded rifle.
No benefit of Nevill phoning Bamber's AM.
No explanation on why Nevill did not call the police instead of Bamber.
No explanation of how many times Nevill phoned Bamber's AM.
Relying on Bamber picking up the phone instantly. If David believes Nevill would give up phoning quickly.
Relying on Nevill spending several minutes repeatedly ringing Bamber's AM. If David believes Bamber would not wake/ignore.
No explanation of what Sheila was doing while Nevill was phoning Bamber's AM.
No explanation of why Nevill would not instantly reclaim his rifle while fully fit.
No explanation of why Nevill allowed Sheila to load rifle.
No evidence on Sheila.
Nevill bare footed although he got out of bed to go downstairs.
Sheila bare footed although got out of bed to go downstairs.
Relying on Sheila firing rifle at June at the same time Bamber picks up phone.
Relying on Nevill hearing upstairs shots from quiet/silent rifle.
'Sheila pivots'. Not compatible with her being docile & uncordinated due to Haloperiodal.
Relying on twins not waking.
Does not say when twins were shot.
Relying on June 'going after Sheila'.
Relying on June 'collapsing with shock'.
Relying on Nevill allowing Sheila to point rifle inches from his face. And not reclaim rifle.
Relying on Nevill not able to calm Sheila down.
Relying on Nevill hearing upstairs shots, then not being prepared for Sheila.
Relying on Nevill hearing upstairs shots. Then instantly retreating.
No description of kitchen fight.
Does not say how Sheila lifted Nevill onto coal scuttle.
Relying on Bamber, June & Nevill not putting rifle away.
No explanation on Sheila's re loads & when she killed herself.
No explanation on what Sheila did after killing 4 people.
Relying on the relatives knowing -
Sheila's arm lenght.
Rifle lenght.
Rifle/silencer lenght.
About back spatter.
Who received contact shots.
Location of contact shots.
All other evidence.
There was not a silencer next to Sheila.
Where to get Sheila's blood.
Crime scene photos of aga.
There was no blood in rifle barrel.
Silencers in WHF were not checked.
How to put Sheila's blood into silencer.
Relatives knowing how to put diluted period blood into silencer.
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https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10102.msg468775.html#msg468775
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"The Gish Gallop is the fallacious debate tactic of drowning your opponent in a flood of individually-weak arguments in order to prevent rebuttal of the whole argument collection without great effort. The Gish Gallop is a belt-fed version of the on the spot fallacy, as it's unreasonable for anyone to have a well-composed answer immediately available to every argument present in the Gallop. The Gish Gallop is named after creationist Duane Gish, who often abused it.
Gish Gallops are almost always performed with numerous other logical fallacies baked in. The myriad of component arguments constituting the Gallop may typically intersperse a few perfectly uncontroversial claims — the basic validity of which are intended to lend undue credence to the Gallop at large — with a devious hodgepodge of half-truths, outright lies, red herrings and straw men — which, if not rebutted as the fallacies they are, pile up into egregious problems for the refuter."
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop)
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That's a starting point of 52 flaws in David's sheila scenario. I'll add to it later.
Believe it or not, this was his fifth attempt. He previously said Nevill rang Bamber's AM after Sheila started shooting the twins!
A lot of amending & extra detail needed when David1819 submits his sixth scenario.
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At least Rob, ILB & Snow66! went into some detail in their scenarios.
However this creates problems as it means they start inventing things & relying on them happening to match the crime scene evidence. Rob invented 47 things when there should be none!
Look forward to the updates.
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It will be a start if David clarifies how long he believes Nevill called Bamber's AM for.
ILB says around 20 seconds. Rob intially said 11 minutes but could not say what Sheila was doing during this time. So rounded it down - to 30 seconds!
Either way David is either relying on Bamber picking up straight away. Or Nevill spending several minutes repeatedly phoning. Tough choice.
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There are no flaws in my Sheila scenario. Adams list of half truths, loaded questions and bullshit has been summarily dismissed!
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There are no flaws in my Sheila scenario. Adams list of half truths, loaded questions and bullshit has been summarily dismissed!
Scenario very short.
No times mentioned. Such as when Sheila got up & when Nevill started engaging downstairs.
No build up to Nevill calling Bamber.
No explanation of why Nevill let Sheila load rifle.
If Sheila loaded rifle when Nevill was not in kitchen, does not say why Sheila did not open fire downstairs/Nevill did not reclaim while fully fit.
No explanation of why Nevill did not put rifle away when arriving downstairs.
No explanation of what woke Nevill.
Relying on Nevill not waking June for assistance.
Relying on June not waking simultaneously with Nevill.
Relying on June or the twins not waking while Sheila gets so bad Nevill decides to call Bamber's AM
No explanation of why Nevill let Sheila go upstairs with a loaded rifle.
No benefit of Nevill phoning Bamber's AM.
No explanation on why Nevill did not call the police instead of Bamber.
No explanation of how many times Nevill phoned Bamber's AM.
Relying on Bamber picking up the phone instantly. If David believes Nevill would give up phoning quickly.
Relying on Nevill spending several minutes repeatedly ringing Bamber's AM. If David believes Bamber would not wake/ignore.
No explanation of what Sheila was doing while Nevill was phoning Bamber's AM.
No explanation of why Nevill would not instantly reclaim his rifle while fully fit.
No explanation of why Nevill allowed Sheila to load rifle.
No evidence on Sheila.
Nevill bare footed although he got out of bed to go downstairs.
Sheila bare footed although got out of bed to go downstairs.
Relying on Sheila firing rifle at June at the same time Bamber picks up phone.
Relying on Nevill hearing upstairs shots from quiet/silent rifle.
'Sheila pivots'. Not compatible with her being docile & uncordinated due to Haloperiodal.
Relying on twins not waking.
Does not say when twins were shot.
Relying on June 'going after Sheila'.
Relying on June 'collapsing with shock'.
Relying on Nevill allowing Sheila to point rifle inches from his face. And not reclaim rifle.
Relying on Nevill not able to calm Sheila down.
Relying on Nevill hearing upstairs shots, then not being prepared for Sheila.
Relying on Nevill hearing upstairs shots. Then instantly retreating.
No description of kitchen fight.
Does not say how Sheila lifted Nevill onto coal scuttle.
Relying on Bamber, June & Nevill not putting rifle away.
No explanation on Sheila's re loads & when she killed herself.
No explanation on what Sheila did after killing 4 people.
Relying on the relatives knowing -
Sheila's arm lenght.
Rifle lenght.
Rifle/silencer lenght.
About back spatter.
Who received contact shots.
Location of contact shots.
All other evidence.
There was not a silencer next to Sheila.
Where to get Sheila's blood.
Crime scene photos of aga.
There was no blood in rifle barrel.
Silencers in WHF were not checked.
How to put Sheila's blood into silencer.
Relatives knowing how to put diluted period blood into silencer
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What this means is that Adam’s suddenly realised how stupid he’s made himself look after 9 years of trolling this forum by admitting that until 2 days ago he didn’t even know where White House Farm was!
He’s now trying to bury that thread amongst spurious new threads in his normal style to hopefully ensure it’s not seen by too many people and he can pretend it never happened!
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What this means is that Adam’s suddenly realised how stupid he’s made himself look after 9 years of trolling this forum by admitting that until 2 days ago he didn’t even know where White House Farm was!
He’s now trying to bury that thread amongst spurious new threads in his normal style to hopefully ensure it’s not seen by too many people and he can pretend it never happened!
I have never hidden from anything you thick shit.
Unlike you who is too much of a coward to create a Sheila scenario.
And yes I hadn't looked at google until recently. And neither had anyone else as far as I know.
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I have never hidden from anything you thick shit.
Unlike you who is too much of a coward to create a Sheila scenario.
And yes I hadn't looked at google until recently. And neither had anyone else as far as I know.
Well I had Adam but only to check which way WHF faced, (the reflection in the window).
I was not looking at cycle routes as the cycle was never used that night.
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Well I had Adam but only to check which way WHF faced, (the reflection in the window).
I was not looking at cycle routes as the cycle was never used that night.
Well the successful prosecution case was that he cycled.
Probably something to do with Julie's WS & the stealing of June's bike.
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Well the successful prosecution case was that he cycled.
Probably something to do with Julie's WS & the stealing of June's bike.
They were told it was Sheila's blood and Sheila's blood alone in the silencer that is what decided the case.
21 minutes after this being clarified they convicted.
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They were told it was Sheila's blood and Sheila's blood alone in the silencer that is what decided the case.
21 minutes after this being clarified they convicted.
If it wasn't Sheila's blood whose was it? On the assumption it was Sheila's blood what viable options for a source exist other than 'drawback' as the jury was told at trial?
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It doesn't have to involve anyone else other than herself though,does it ? Drawback or not.
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It doesn't have to involve anyone else other than herself though,does it ? Drawback or not.
The prosecution case against Bamber involves a blood flake found within the silencer which the lab claimed matched 5 of Sheila's blood groups. The expert testimony asserted the flake found its way inside the silencer as a result of drawback. If you believe this is wrong whose blood do you believe was in the silencer and how did it get there?
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The prosecution case against Bamber involves a blood flake found within the silencer which the lab claimed matched 5 of Sheila's blood groups. The expert testimony asserted the flake found its way inside the silencer as a result of drawback. If you believe this is wrong whose blood do you believe was in the silencer and how did it get there?
Malcolm Fletcher got this theory from a textbook or academic paper. He carried out no experiments to replicate the process / substantiate the claim. The question you're asking is possibly facetious, as you are patently aware that deliberate contamination is a very strong contender.
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Malcolm Fletcher got this theory from a textbook or academic paper. He carried out no experiments to replicate the process / substantiate the claim. The question you're asking is possibly facetious, as you are patently aware that deliberate contamination is a very strong contender.
She is indeed.
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Malcolm Fletcher got this theory from a textbook or academic paper. He carried out no experiments to replicate the process / substantiate the claim. The question you're asking is possibly facetious, as you are patently aware that deliberate contamination is a very strong contender.
So what are you proposing if you do not believe the prosecution case?
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She is indeed.
How does retrieving old posts from non-entities on an obscure internet forum dent the prosecution case in this regard?
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Hopefully David1819 provides a new scenario today. It should be quick to do as it follows the evidence.
His fifth/final scenario was barely long enough to be worthy of the name & had dozens of flaws.
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Hopefully David1819 provides a new scenario today. It should be quick to do as it follows the evidence.
His fifth/final scenario was barely long enough to be worthy of the name & had dozens of flaws.
My scenario will not change. It matches the evidence to the best of my knowledge. Your perceived "flaws" have all been summarily dismissed.
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My scenario will not change. It matches the evidence to the best of my knowledge. Your perceived "flaws" have all been summarily dismissed.
David you are just showing you are a guilter again. After your secret stance change was outed & your two reasons for this change dismissed.
Now you are sticking to an appalling and tiny Sheila scenario created 2 years ago.
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If it wasn't Sheila's blood whose was it? On the assumption it was Sheila's blood what viable options for a source exist other than 'drawback' as the jury was told at trial?
If I knew that the blood was 100% certain it was Sheila's blood and no one else's I would have to switch to guilty, but that's not the case. All we can say is that the blood matched 8% of the population, including some of the relatives blood groups.
Sorry I do not accept the silencer evidence at all, there were two silencers for a start. SJ thought so much of it that he just chucked the silencer in the boot. DB's witness statement where he first says he saw the blood etc. while at WHF then latter in another he says he saw the blood etc. over AE's house is just unacceptable.
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If I knew that the blood was 100% certain it was Sheila's blood and no one else's I would have to switch to guilty, but that's not the case. All we can say is that the blood matched 8% of the population, including some of the relatives blood groups.
Sorry I do not accept the silencer evidence at all, there were two silencers for a start. SJ thought so much of it that he just chucked the silencer in the boot. DB's witness statement where he first says he saw the blood etc. while at WHF then latter in another he says he saw the blood etc. over AE's house is just unacceptable.
So what? It's the lab results that matter.
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If I knew that the blood was 100% certain it was Sheila's blood and no one else's I would have to switch to guilty, but that's not the case. All we can say is that the blood matched 8% of the population, including some of the relatives blood groups.
Sorry I do not accept the silencer evidence at all, there were two silencers for a start. SJ thought so much of it that he just chucked the silencer in the boot. DB's witness statement where he first says he saw the blood etc. while at WHF then latter in another he says he saw the blood etc. over AE's house is just unacceptable.
Why?
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Why?
Why Adam? how can someone forget where they first saw the blood in/on the silencer.
Then no one seems to remember who called the police?
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Why Adam? how can someone forget where they first saw the blood in/on the silencer.
Then no one seems to remember who called the police?
Well someone did.
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Well someone did.
Yes I know that someone did Adam, my point is how can the person who actually did call the police not remember. They have found a momentous piece of evidence! it's not like asking who picked up the Sunday paper.
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Why Adam? how can someone forget where they first saw the blood in/on the silencer.
Then no one seems to remember who called the police?
It was AE.
September statement.
"We discussed the implication of how this silencer could be in the gun cupboard with blood and paint on it. Obviously if it was being alleged that somebody had had a brainstorm and shot dead four people they would surely not have stopped to remove the silencer, put it back in the gun cupboard, go back upstairs and shoot herself dead. Contact was made with the police about the discovery of the blood and paint stained silencer."
Examination at trial.
ARLIDGE: As a result of that being found, were police contacted?
ANN EATON: Yes, Witham Police
ARLIDGE: Do you know the date on which that took place?
ANN EATON: Saturday night.
ARLIDGE: That very evening?
ANN EATON: Yes.
MR. Justice Drake: (To the witness): Q: Who actually contacted them?
ANN EATON: It was probably me, but I cannot remember, but Witham Police were contacted.
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If I knew that the blood was 100% certain it was Sheila's blood and no one else's I would have to switch to guilty, but that's not the case. All we can say is that the blood matched 8% of the population, including some of the relatives blood groups.
Sorry I do not accept the silencer evidence at all, there were two silencers for a start. SJ thought so much of it that he just chucked the silencer in the boot. DB's witness statement where he first says he saw the blood etc. while at WHF then latter in another he says he saw the blood etc. over AE's house is just unacceptable.
Even DNA evidence isn't 100%.
The expert said the blood groups within the flake matched 8% of the white British population so you're a few billion out. It stands to reason surely that statistically one or more of the relatives will share the same blood groups? Trials are concerned with propositions that are capable of convincing jurors not fanciful notions. If you were a member of the jury at Bamber's trial which do you think would sound most compelling:
- Sheila's blood entering the silencer from the 'drawback' phenomenon
- RWB dobbing his blood in to contaminate silencer
- AE wringing out Sheila's menstrual stained knickers left to soak in a bucket of water and using to contaminate silencer
Rivlin went for the mixed blood theory ie the flake representing a mix of Nevill and June's blood.
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It was AE.
September statement.
"We discussed the implication of how this silencer could be in the gun cupboard with blood and paint on it. Obviously if it was being alleged that somebody had had a brainstorm and shot dead four people they would surely not have stopped to remove the silencer, put it back in the gun cupboard, go back upstairs and shoot herself dead. Contact was made with the police about the discovery of the blood and paint stained silencer."
Examination at trial.
ARLIDGE: As a result of that being found, were police contacted?
ANN EATON: Yes, Witham Police
ARLIDGE: Do you know the date on which that took place?
ANN EATON: Saturday night.
ARLIDGE: That very evening?
ANN EATON: Yes.
MR. Justice Drake: (To the witness): Q: Who actually contacted them?
ANN EATON: It was probably me, but I cannot remember, but Witham Police were contacted.
This is nothing to do with remembering where a relative first saw blood on the silencer.
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This is nothing to do with remembering where a relative first saw blood on the silencer.
I never said it was.
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I never said it was.
Your reply was to Rob's -
'Why Adam? how can someone forget where they first saw the blood in/on the silencer.
Then no one seems to remember who called the police?'
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I have never hidden from anything you thick shit.
Unlike you who is too much of a coward to create a Sheila scenario.
And yes I hadn't looked at google until recently. And neither had anyone else as far as I know.
Adam will fall out of favour with myself if he continues in this vein.
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Adam will fall out of favour with myself if he continues in this vein.
Now I won't get any sleep tonight.
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Regarding Kestrel19, he is stone walling the issue of creating a Sheila scenario.
His forum intro is very vague.
His only posts I can recall are to do with the bike ride Bamber took. Making snide comments whenever I investigate or make a route suggestion. Although I don't need to as Wilkinson has several routes. Apparently Kestrel19 lives in the area but has never submitted one piece of useful information.
He then accused me of creating this thread to 'bury' another thread on which I had used my iniative & located WHF on Google!
I can only conclude he is a guilter & agrees with my Bamber scenario.
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Now I won't get any sleep tonight.
No, and if you continue to gratuitously insult members you won't have a bed on this forum either.
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No, and if you continue to gratuitously insult members you won't have a bed on this forum either.
Are you a moderator?
And Kestrel19 called me a 'prat' after I made an error on which side of the road 9, Head Street is.
Prior to accusing me of trying to 'bury' a thread. While simultaneously stone walling the Sheila scenario issue.
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Even DNA evidence isn't 100%.
The expert said the blood groups within the flake matched 8% of the white British population so you're a few billion out. It stands to reason surely that statistically one or more of the relatives will share the same blood groups? Trials are concerned with propositions that are capable of convincing jurors not fanciful notions. If you were a member of the jury at Bamber's trial which do you think would sound most compelling:
- Sheila's blood entering the silencer from the 'drawback' phenomenon
- RWB dobbing his blood in to contaminate silencer
- AE wringing out Sheila's menstrual stained knickers left to soak in a bucket of water and using to contaminate silencer
Rivlin went for the mixed blood theory ie the flake representing a mix of Nevill and June's blood.
Not sure where the few billion comes from? I just said that around 8% of the population also has the same blood group as Sheila's? Of course DNA evidence should not be relied upon in it's totality, I just said if I knew for sure etc.
The jury were obviously not sure as they asked for clarification on the blood / silencer issue and were told a porkie by the judge if I remember correctly? 21 minutes after being told a porkie they convicted.
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Not sure where the few billion comes from? I just said that around 8% of the population also has the same blood group as Sheila's? Of course DNA evidence should not be relied upon in it's totality, I just said if I knew for sure etc.
The jury were obviously not sure as they asked for clarification on the blood / silencer issue and were told a porkie by the judge if I remember correctly? 21 minutes after being told a porkie they convicted.
How do you believe the relatives found out DB & Sheila had the same blood group. In such a short time period?
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Are you a moderator?
And Kestrel19 called me a 'prat' after I made an error on which side of the road 9, Head Street is.
Prior to accusing me of trying to 'bury' a thread. While simultaneously stone walling the Sheila scenario issue.
Whether I am a Moderator or not is quite irrelevant. Any post which is deemed inappropriate by a member should be reported via the link on the post itself. I am not a Moderator, but I am able to and do report offensive posts, which include ad hominem attacks.
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How do you believe the relatives found out DB & Sheila had the same blood group. In such a short time period?
Question open to forum.
David says the relatives put diluted period blood into the silencer. Although has never said how this could be done.
Lookout says Sheila took the silencer off before shooting herself & her blood fell in. Although Sheila only bled after her first shot.
The most popular view & what Bamber advocates is the relatives fabricated the silencer. So the question of how the relatives found out so quickly that DB's blood group matched Sheila's needs to be answered.
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Question open to forum.
David says the relatives put diluted period blood into the silencer. Although has never said how this could be done.
Lookout says Sheila took the silencer off before shooting herself & her blood fell in. Although Sheila only bled after her first shot.
The most popular view & what Bamber advocates is the relatives fabricated the silencer. So the question of how the relatives found out so quickly that DB's blood group matched Sheila's needs to be answered.
Yes these are all valid points Adam.
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How do you believe the relatives found out DB & Sheila had the same blood group. In such a short time period?
Wouldn't the victims blood type be tested at autopsy Adam?
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Wouldn't the victims blood type be tested at autopsy Adam?
You tell me. And tell me how that benefits the relatives.
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You tell me. And tell me how that benefits the relatives.
Well,their blood types would be needed to see just who's blood was found in each location.This could be tested in a lab from a sample at the morgue or the pathologist could simply request the victims medical records to see if their blood groups were already recorded.
Either way,I would imagine their blood type would be needed ASAP for the investigation.Then I would imagine the information would be freely available to all investigating officers.
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Well,their blood types would be needed to see just who's blood was found in each location.This could be tested in a lab from a sample at the morgue or the pathologist could simply request the victims medical records to see if their blood groups were already recorded.
Either way,I would imagine their blood type would be needed ASAP for the investigation.Then I would imagine the information would be freely available to all investigating officers.
That has always been referred to by person - June's blood found in the bedroom.
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Well,their blood types would be needed to see just who's blood was found in each location.This could be tested in a lab from a sample at the morgue or the pathologist could simply request the victims medical records to see if their blood groups were already recorded.
Either way,I would imagine their blood type would be needed ASAP for the investigation.Then I would imagine the information would be freely available to all investigating officers.
Why would they all need to know each person's blood type?
How would that benefit the relatives?
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Why would they all need to know each person's blood type?
How would that benefit the relatives?
I just mean the victims blood types would have been known within a few days of the shooting Adam,and it would have been quite easy for any police officer to get this info.
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I just mean the victims blood types would have been known within a few days of the shooting Adam,and it would have been quite easy for any police officer to get this info.
How would that benefit the relatives?
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Well,their blood types would be needed to see just who's blood was found in each location.This could be tested in a lab from a sample at the morgue or the pathologist could simply request the victims medical records to see if their blood groups were already recorded.
Either way,I would imagine their blood type would be needed ASAP for the investigation.Then I would imagine the information would be freely available to all investigating officers.
So having ascertained the blood groups of all the victims, and made such available to all investigating officers, how would said officers go about extracting blood samples from relatives who, A) weren't present, and B) weren't suspects? It might make more sense to have taken samples from all police personnel present at the scene. I feel certain that, as Sheila's blood group was so common, at least one of them would have fallen into that group. If nothing else, it may have prevented fingers being pointed at RWB!!!
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How would that benefit the relatives?
Do I have to spell it out Adam?
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Do I have to spell it out Adam?
Please do.
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Of course the relatives would also need to know their own blood groups. It is likely they didn't.
They would have to arrange immediate blood testing. After finding out how to do this.
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So having ascertained the blood groups of all the victims, and made such available to all investigating officers, how would said officers go about extracting blood samples from relatives who, A) weren't present, and B) weren't suspects? It might make more sense to have taken samples from all police personnel present at the scene. I feel certain that, as Sheila's blood group was so common, at least one of them would have fallen into that group. If nothing else, it may have prevented fingers being pointed at RWB!!!
Hiya Jane,maybe I am not making myself clear,I was hinting that it may have been the relatives extracting info from the police regarding blood types.
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Of course the relatives would also need to know their own blood groups. It is likely they didn't.
They would have to arrange immediate blood testing. After finding out how to do this.
Very true Adam.Although it depends when the silencer was apparently found and handed in,Mike thinks well through September.
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Hiya Jane,maybe I am not making myself clear,I was hinting that it may have been the relatives extracting info from the police regarding blood types.
Surely that would have to mean that they all knew their own blood types, OR had to go to extraordinary lengths to get tested. Might not the police have wondered why they were being asked for such information?
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Surely that would have to mean that they all knew their own blood types, OR had to go to extraordinary lengths to get tested. Might not the police have wondered why they were being asked for such information?
You would think so.
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Surely that would have to mean that they all knew their own blood types, OR had to go to extraordinary lengths to get tested. Might not the police have wondered why they were being asked for such information?
Yes Adam just pointed out the need to find out their own blood types.As far as the police are concerned,after it was a murder investigation the relatives were allies .
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Yes Adam just pointed out the need to find out their own blood types.As far as the police are concerned,after it was a murder investigation the relatives were allies .
Do you believe the relatives asked several police officers what blood type Sheila was. Until they got an answer.
Then asked the police to test their blood types.
Prior to handing in the silencer.
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Do you believe the relatives asked several police officers what blood type Sheila was. Until they got an answer.
Then asked the police to test their blood types.
Prior to handing in the silencer.
I dont necessarily believe anything Adam,I am just pointing out the possibility of a bit of corruption once it was a murder inquiry and the relatives were pushing for a Bamber conviction too.
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I dont necessarily believe anything Adam,I am just pointing out the possibility of a bit of corruption once it was a murder inquiry and the relatives were pushing for a Bamber conviction too.
Well there needs to be something credible. It has been 36 years.
The relatives asking police officers what blood type Sheila was, then asking the police to test their blood, is not credible.
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Yes Adam just pointed out the need to find out their own blood types.As far as the police are concerned,after it was a murder investigation the relatives were allies .
Still, given that only two of the victims were related by blood, I find it odd that they'd want to know the blood groups of those unrelated.
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Still, given that only two of the victims were related by blood, I find it odd that they'd want to know the blood groups of those unrelated.
Well,I suppose only June was a relation to the relatives through blood.But you have to remember that there are only four or five different blood groups,so it wouldn't be that hard to find a match for Sheila.It wasn't like DNA testing,mores the pity.
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This is nothing to do with remembering where a relative first saw blood on the silencer.
Have you not read DB's statements Adam?
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It was AE.
September statement.
"We discussed the implication of how this silencer could be in the gun cupboard with blood and paint on it. Obviously if it was being alleged that somebody had had a brainstorm and shot dead four people they would surely not have stopped to remove the silencer, put it back in the gun cupboard, go back upstairs and shoot herself dead. Contact was made with the police about the discovery of the blood and paint stained silencer."
Examination at trial.
ARLIDGE: As a result of that being found, were police contacted?
ANN EATON: Yes, Witham Police
ARLIDGE: Do you know the date on which that took place?
ANN EATON: Saturday night.
ARLIDGE: That very evening?
ANN EATON: Yes.
MR. Justice Drake: (To the witness): Q: Who actually contacted them?
ANN EATON: It was probably me, but I cannot remember, but Witham Police were contacted.
Thanks Dave though I have read this before maybe it's me but I find it strange she is not sure:
"It was probably me, but I cannot remember"
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How do you believe the relatives found out DB & Sheila had the same blood group. In such a short time period?
Rob is online now. He can now answer.
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Rob is online now. He can now answer.
Five people were shot Adam several very close or contact shots, as long as it was human blood that would probably be good enough to get the police to suspect JB, but either someone got lucky and the groups matched Sheila's, or worse and Sheila's blood was planted in the silencer.
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Five people were shot Adam several very close or contact shots, as long as it was human blood that would probably be good enough to get the police to suspect JB, but either someone got lucky and the groups matched Sheila's, or worse and Sheila's blood was planted in the silencer.
How could the relatives plant Sheila's blood into the silencer?
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How could the police plant Sheila's blood into the silencer?
I never said it was the police did I?
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Five people were shot Adam several very close or contact shots, as long as it was human blood that would probably be good enough to get the police to suspect JB, but either someone got lucky and the groups matched Sheila's, or worse and Sheila's blood was planted in the silencer.
Why would the police suspect Bamber if other peoples blood was in the silencer?
Sheila had to take it off before shooting herself.
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I never said it was the police did I?
Sorry I meant the relatives.
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Why would the police suspect Bamber if other peoples blood was in the silencer?
Sheila had to take it off before shooting herself.
Five victims with different blood groups plus possibility of mixtures, any human blood would probably been good enough to turn the tide against JB.
Because the silencer was in the cupboard and not beside Sheila.
If the silencer had been left beside Sheila we would not be here now.
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How could the relatives plant Sheila's blood into the silencer?
Question amended for Rob.
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Well,I suppose only June was a relation to the relatives through blood.But you have to remember that there are only four or five different blood groups,so it wouldn't be that hard to find a match for Sheila.It wasn't like DNA testing,mores the pity.
What about Ann? She was a mix of June, through Pam, her mother, June's sister, and RWB. As was her brother, David. As you have pointed out, Sheila's was a common blood group so it was hardly a great surprise to find someone, not biologically linked, with the same blood type.
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Five victims with different blood groups plus possibility of mixtures, any human blood would probably been good enough to turn the tide against JB.
Because the silencer was in the cupboard and not beside Sheila.
If the silencer had been left beside Sheila we would not be here now.
Why would the relatives put human blood into the silencer, if they knew Sheila wouldn't bother putting the silencer away
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What about Ann? She was a mix of June, through Pam, her mother, June's sister, and RWB. As was her brother, David. As you have pointed out, Sheila's was a common blood group so it was hardly a great surprise to find someone, not biologically linked, with the same blood type.
It wasn't so common Jane: RWB and Sheila Caffell shared a blood group common to only 8% of the population. The question is whether the relatives knew her blood group, possibly from her recent stay at St. Andrew's, Northampton, from some other source or would even risk contaminating a silencer at all. https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/blood-2002-appeal
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Why would the relatives put human blood into the silencer, if they knew Sheila wouldn't bother putting the silencer away
I would word it another way a killer definitely would not put the silencer in the cupboard with blood, paint and hair on it.
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I would word it another way a killer definitely would not put the silencer in the cupboard with blood, paint and hair on it.
Why would the relatives put human blood into the silencer, if they did not believe Bamber or Sheila would put it away?
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Why would the relatives put human blood into the silencer, if they did not believe Bamber or Sheila would put it away?
Well it worked at the end of the day, but only because the jury were misdirected by the judge.
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Why would the relatives put human blood into the silencer, if they did not believe Bamber or Sheila would put it away?
I suppose Robert Boutflour might have left it there for his children to find. The relatives weren't being taken seriously at all at that stage. I do have to say that even if the silencer was contaminated by the relatives it does not necessarily mean Jeremy Bamber is innocent.
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What about Ann? She was a mix of June, through Pam, her mother, June's sister, and RWB. As was her brother, David. As you have pointed out, Sheila's was a common blood group so it was hardly a great surprise to find someone, not biologically linked, with the same blood type.
You mentioned two of the victims being related by blood Jane,isn't it only June?Anyway,there appears to be eight blood types,three quite rare though.Which was Sheila?
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You mentioned two of the victims being related by blood Jane,isn't it only June?Anyway,there appears to be eight blood types,three quite rare though.Which was Sheila?
Sheila Caffell's enzyme blood grouping was A, PGM 1 +, EAP BA, AK1, HP2-1: an identical match to Robert Boutflour, Jeremy's uncle though marriage to his mother's sister, Pamela Speakman.
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Well it worked at the end of the day, but only because the jury were misdirected by the judge.
So no reason why the relatives would.
Agree Sheila would not put the silencer away. Bamber would for reasons already said.
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It wasn't so common Jane: RWB and Sheila Caffell shared a blood group common to only 8% of the population. The question is whether the relatives knew her blood group, possibly from her recent stay at St. Andrew's, Northampton, from some other source or would even risk contaminating a silencer at all. https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/blood-2002-appeal
Could you please outline exactly how you believe it possible for outsiders -they weren't even close relatives- to have obtained blood details of a patient, and indeed, perhaps you could explain why, given that Sheila had been hospitalized several months prior to the massacre, they'd have wanted them.
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You mentioned two of the victims being related by blood Jane,isn't it only June?Anyway,there appears to be eight blood types,three quite rare though.Which was Sheila?
Mea culpa, Snow! Three were biologically related, although unrelated to the only one -June- who was biologically related to the family.
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Could you please outline exactly how you believe it possible for outsiders -they weren't even close relatives- to have obtained blood details of a patient, and indeed, perhaps you could explain why, given that Sheila had been hospitalized several months prior to the massacre, they'd have wanted them.
Well it was Sheila who chose to write to Ann from hospital remember. I'm not saying I believe the story of the fabricated silencer evidence, just that without it it would have been difficult for Robert Boutflour to have had the ear of ACC Simpson, which changed entirely the nature of the investigation.
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Well it was Sheila who chose to write to Ann from hospital remember. I'm not saying I believe the story of the fabricated silencer evidence, just that without it it would have been difficult for Robert Boutflour to have had the ear of ACC Simpson, which changed entirely the nature of the investigation.
But that letter was written around five months prior to the massacre, wasn't it, Steve. Unless the relatives had some sort of dark, satanic premonition of what was to come, I don't see how that letter could have served any purpose. I think the wrong tree may be being barked up!!
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So no reason why the relatives would.
Agree Sheila would not put the silencer away. Bamber would for reasons already said.
Nope JB definitely would not put the silencer away in the condition it was found, he would not have allowed anyone access to the house if he had loose ends like this to be tided up.
It's also laughable to believe five police officers missed it as well.
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Sheila Caffell's enzyme blood grouping was A, PGM 1 +, EAP BA, AK1, HP2-1: an identical match to Robert Boutflour, Jeremy's uncle though marriage to his mother's sister, Pamela Speakman.
Thanks Steve,so was it A negative or A positive?
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But that letter was written around five months prior to the massacre, wasn't it, Steve. Unless the relatives had some sort of dark, satanic premonition of what was to come, I don't see how that letter could have served any purpose. I think the wrong tree may be being barked up!!
It's possible that blood groupings were mentioned when Sheila charred for Ann, or just woman to woman talk about hospital stays whilst pregnant. Sheila did visit Oak Farm with Daniel and Nicholas. She asked Ann on that occasion to take a photograph of her to show to Christine. I don't say Ann knew definitively and I don't believe it myself, though the Bamberettes will claim anything which suits their case, as the guilters know from old.
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Thanks Steve,so was it A negative or A positive?
I don't know offhand; I would have to flick through the Wilkes' book. It's one of those curious facts about the Bamber case that Sheila and RWB shared the same blood group.
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I don't know offhand; I would have to flick through the Wilkes' book. It's one of those curious facts about the Bamber case that Sheila and RWB shared the same blood group.
Mysterious to say the least. Neither twin had the same group as their mother, which I thought strange as a child or children of the same parents has the same blood grouping of one of the parents.
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It's possible that blood groupings were mentioned when Sheila charred for Ann, or just woman to woman talk about hospital stays whilst pregnant. Sheila did visit Oak Farm with Daniel and Nicholas. She asked Ann on that occasion to take a photograph of her to show to Christine. I don't say Ann knew definitively and I don't believe it myself, though the Bamberettes will claim anything which suits their case, as the guilters know from old.
I guess it comes down to any and all things being possibilities. Probabilities come in much fewer numbers. In this particular case, I believe the chance of a probability is remote enough to be impossible.
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Not sure where the few billion comes from? I just said that around 8% of the population also has the same blood group as Sheila's? Of course DNA evidence should not be relied upon in it's totality, I just said if I knew for sure etc.
The jury were obviously not sure as they asked for clarification on the blood / silencer issue and were told a porkie by the judge if I remember correctly? 21 minutes after being told a porkie they convicted.
I quoted the expert who referred to "About 8% of unrelated white British people would be expected to have this combination of groups". You have quoted 8% of the population. Which means you are a few billion out in that all the Africans, Asians, Chinese etc in the world would not be expected to share the combination of blood groups.
In what way do you believe the judge told porkies?
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Well,their blood types would be needed to see just who's blood was found in each location.This could be tested in a lab from a sample at the morgue or the pathologist could simply request the victims medical records to see if their blood groups were already recorded.
Either way,I would imagine their blood type would be needed ASAP for the investigation.Then I would imagine the information would be freely available to all investigating officers.
Blood samples were taken from victims at pm and handed to the police who in turn forwarded to the lab.
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Wouldn't the victims blood type be tested at autopsy Adam?
I don't believe its standard procedure and certainly was not performed in this case.
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Very true Adam.Although it depends when the silencer was apparently found and handed in,Mike thinks well through September.
Mike has lots of thoughts, as we all do, but doesn't mean to say they're rooted in fact!
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Well,I suppose only June was a relation to the relatives through blood.But you have to remember that there are only four or five different blood groups,so it wouldn't be that hard to find a match for Sheila.It wasn't like DNA testing,mores the pity.
There are many enzymes and proteins identifiable within blood serology. In this case the following were used:
PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme)
EAP = Erthrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)
AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)
HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)
The expert for the defence confirmed about 8% of unrelated white British people would be expected to share the enzymes and proteins above along with the ABO grouping system (antigens).
Realistically who in the world has any knowledge of their enzyme and protein groups within their blood serology?
The fact a relative (via adoption/unrelated biology) shared the groups is to be expected based on the statistics. Based on the statistics a regular member here would be expected to share the groups. But none of this explains how the lab claims to have found a blood flake within the silencer which matched Sheila's groups if not through the 'drawback' phenomenon?
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Five people were shot Adam several very close or contact shots, as long as it was human blood that would probably be good enough to get the police to suspect JB, but either someone got lucky and the groups matched Sheila's, or worse and Sheila's blood was planted in the silencer.
Or the case is as the proseuction claim and the blood flake ended up in the silencer as a result of the 'drawback' phenomenon.
The blood wasn't just identified as human in origin but matched 5 of Sheila's groupings.
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Five victims with different blood groups plus possibility of mixtures, any human blood would probably been good enough to turn the tide against JB.
Because the silencer was in the cupboard and not beside Sheila.
If the silencer had been left beside Sheila we would not be here now.
The mixed blood theory was Rivlin's idea as his client's back was up against the wall. In reality neither June or Nevill sustained injuries whereby their blood would enter the silencer let alone as far down as it was found. The blood groupings matched Sheila's alone.
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It wasn't so common Jane: RWB and Sheila Caffell shared a blood group common to only 8% of the population. The question is whether the relatives knew her blood group, possibly from her recent stay at St. Andrew's, Northampton, from some other source or would even risk contaminating a silencer at all. https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/blood-2002-appeal
8% of the unrelated white British population not 8% of the population.
How/why would the relatives know Sheila's blood groups by way of enzymes and proteins? I can accept they might know her blood group by way of A,B,O as this is something many of us have knowledge of and can share with others but who in the world knows their enzyme and protein groups:
PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme)
EAP = Erthrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)
AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)
HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)
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Sheila Caffell's enzyme blood grouping was A, PGM 1 +, EAP BA, AK1, HP2-1: an identical match to Robert Boutflour, Jeremy's uncle though marriage to his mother's sister, Pamela Speakman.
What do you find remarkable about this fact given the expert evidence ie about 8% of the unrelated white British population sharing the groups'?
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Well it was Sheila who chose to write to Ann from hospital remember. I'm not saying I believe the story of the fabricated silencer evidence, just that without it it would have been difficult for Robert Boutflour to have had the ear of ACC Simpson, which changed entirely the nature of the investigation.
How does any of this relate to the lab identifying a blood flake within the silencer which matched Sheila's blood groupings as detailed below?
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Thanks Steve,so was it A negative or A positive?
?
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It's possible that blood groupings were mentioned when Sheila charred for Ann, or just woman to woman talk about hospital stays whilst pregnant. Sheila did visit Oak Farm with Daniel and Nicholas. She asked Ann on that occasion to take a photograph of her to show to Christine. I don't say Ann knew definitively and I don't believe it myself, though the Bamberettes will claim anything which suits their case, as the guilters know from old.
Why would Sheila have any understanding or knowledge of her enzyme and protein groups as a result of her pregnancy? And even if she did who exactly would be able to recall and relay such information?
PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (enzyme)
EAP = Erthrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)
AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)
HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)
Does anyone here know their groups?
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Mysterious to say the least. Neither twin had the same group as their mother, which I thought strange as a child or children of the same parents has the same blood grouping of one of the parents.
Have you not answered your own query?
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Why would Sheila have any understanding or knowledge of her enzyme and protein groups as a result of her pregnancy? And even if she did who exactly would be able to recall and relay such information?
PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (enzyme)
EAP = Erthrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)
AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)
HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)
Does anyone here know their groups?
Actually I should have said Sheila's actual groups within the above are as follows:
ABO - A
PGM - PGM1+
EAP - EAP BA
AK - AK1
HP - HP2-1
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Yes,I did not realise there were specific proteins and enzymes for each person Cutie.I thought it was as simple as having the same general blood group ie.O,A,B,or whatever.I will have to read more about the blood evidence from both sides.I dont know enough to comment at the moment.
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Yes,I did not realise there were specific proteins and enzymes for each person Cutie.I thought it was as simple as having the same general blood group ie.O,A,B,or whatever.I will have to read more about the blood evidence from both sides.I dont know enough to comment at the moment.
I would recommend reading Dr Lincoln's letters/reports for the defence, John Hayward's (biologist at FSS) notes and trial testimony all of which can be found in the libarary here I think. If not I have copies. Other useful sources of info are the report compiled by the FSS for the defence at the 1989 appeal and the CoA doc points 14 and 15.
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I would recommend reading Dr Lincoln's letters/reports for the defence, John Hayward's (biologist at FSS) notes and trial testimony all of which can be found in the libarary here I think. If not I have copies. Other useful sources of info are the report compiled by the FSS for the defence at the 1989 appeal and the CoA doc points 14 and 15.
Thanks Cutie,will check it all out.
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Thanks Cutie,will check it all out.
The blood evidence is arguably the most compelling against Bamber. Supporters try to brush it off with 2 or more silencers involved (NGB has said several were examined so no idea how this supports Bamber's case), RWB dobbing his blood in and AE wringing out Sheila's soaking in a bucket menstrual stained knickers into the silencer. All of these theories are utterly abusurd and have no basis to them whatsoever.
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The blood evidence is arguably the most compelling against Bamber. Supporters try to brush it off with 2 or more silencers involved (NGB has said several were examined so no idea how this supports Bamber's case), RWB dobbing his blood in and AE wringing out Sheila's soaking in a bucket menstrual stained knickers into the silencer. All of these theories are utterly abusurd and have no basis to them whatsoever.
Well,if only the silencer had been found on the day and kept the same exhibit number throughout,then it would have stood up to scrutiny better.There's nothing straight forward in this case Cutie,is there?
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How does any of this relate to the lab identifying a blood flake within the silencer which matched Sheila's blood groupings as detailed below?
We are discussing theoretically whether it was possible the relatives discovered Sheila's blood type.
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Why would Sheila have any understanding or knowledge of her enzyme and protein groups as a result of her pregnancy? And even if she did who exactly would be able to recall and relay such information?
PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (enzyme)
EAP = Erthrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)
AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)
HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)
Does anyone here know their groups?
Why would anyone need to know the actual grouping names?
All you need to know is which group you are such as A+, A- etc.
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Well,if only the silencer had been found on the day and kept the same exhibit number throughout,then it would have stood up to scrutiny better.There's nothing straight forward in this case Cutie,is there?
And the scratches and the hacksaw blade Snow.
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The blood evidence is arguably the most compelling against Bamber. Supporters try to brush it off with 2 or more silencers involved (NGB has said several were examined so no idea how this supports Bamber's case), RWB dobbing his blood in and AE wringing out Sheila's soaking in a bucket menstrual stained knickers into the silencer. All of these theories are utterly abusurd and have no basis to them whatsoever.
Why is the blood evidence compelling Cc? I have posted a extract of one of my old posts:
Extract of David Boutflour’s statement 12.9.85
“Also in the box was a sound moderator for a .22 rifle. I picked up the sound moderator and saw what I believe to be blood on it. Also there was red paint or something similar on it as well. There was one quite deep scratch which was bright and appeared to be new. I took these items together with the other firearms to my sister’s home.
I latter informed the Police of the finding of the telescopic sight and the sound moderator.”
Court Testimony
MR. RIVLIN: When you took the box which contained the silencer out of the gun cupboard, whichever that box may have been, is it right you actually looked at the silencer then and there? A. I looked at the silencer then and there, but did not come to any conclusion until a latter date, because I looked at the silencer at a latter date at my sister’s home.
Q. Where did you look at it when you were in White House Farm? In which room where you when you looked at it? A. I looked at it in the confines of the office in the den.
Q. Is this right: Did you see anything of significance at the time in the den on the silencer? A. I cannot remember whether I noticed the fact it had the red paint on it and the undermentioned spot of blood at the time of inspecting it in the office, or on further investigation at my sister’s house. The notability of the damage to the silencer, i.e. the protective coating to the silencer.
Q. So you have no memory of noticing anything significant on the silencer at White House Farm? A. I have the memory of noticing the damage to the silencer, but not the spot of blood.
Q. Not blood and not red paint? A. I cannot recollect so far back now, sorry.
Then Latter:
Q. You rang to tell them about the silencer? A. I did not ring them somebody did.
Nothing compelling as far as I can see?
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And the scratches and the hacksaw blade Snow.
Exactly Rob,how can you have faith in evidence found days or maybe weeks after the crime scene was vacated by the police.Its hardly normal procedure by any means.
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Well,if only the silencer had been found on the day and kept the same exhibit number throughout,then it would have stood up to scrutiny better.There's nothing straight forward in this case Cutie,is there?
But many important exhibits at criminal trials are not found on the day. Sometimes they are found days, weeks, months and even years later. There's a simple and straightforward explanation for the changing of the exhibit id; an exhibit I might add that has stood up to scrutiny hence Bamber is still behind bars.
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We are discussing theoretically whether it was possible the relatives discovered Sheila's blood type.
Under what circumstances would they and if they possessed such knowledge how would they then set about contaminating the silencer?
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Why would anyone need to know the actual grouping names?
All you need to know is which group you are such as A+, A- etc.
The flake found within the silencer matched 4 of Sheila's blood groups which wasn't just limited to the ABO grouping system. It was as follows:
A, EAP BA, AK1, HP2-1
A = ABO grouping system
EAP BA = Erthrocyte Acid Phosphatase
AK = Adenylate Kinase
HP = Haptoglobin
Maybe you now appreciate how compelling the blood evidence is against Bamber?
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Why is the blood evidence compelling Cc? I have posted a extract of one of my old posts:
Extract of David Boutflour’s statement 12.9.85
“Also in the box was a sound moderator for a .22 rifle. I picked up the sound moderator and saw what I believe to be blood on it. Also there was red paint or something similar on it as well. There was one quite deep scratch which was bright and appeared to be new. I took these items together with the other firearms to my sister’s home.
I latter informed the Police of the finding of the telescopic sight and the sound moderator.”
Court Testimony
MR. RIVLIN: When you took the box which contained the silencer out of the gun cupboard, whichever that box may have been, is it right you actually looked at the silencer then and there? A. I looked at the silencer then and there, but did not come to any conclusion until a latter date, because I looked at the silencer at a latter date at my sister’s home.
Q. Where did you look at it when you were in White House Farm? In which room where you when you looked at it? A. I looked at it in the confines of the office in the den.
Q. Is this right: Did you see anything of significance at the time in the den on the silencer? A. I cannot remember whether I noticed the fact it had the red paint on it and the undermentioned spot of blood at the time of inspecting it in the office, or on further investigation at my sister’s house. The notability of the damage to the silencer, i.e. the protective coating to the silencer.
Q. So you have no memory of noticing anything significant on the silencer at White House Farm? A. I have the memory of noticing the damage to the silencer, but not the spot of blood.
Q. Not blood and not red paint? A. I cannot recollect so far back now, sorry.
Then Latter:
Q. You rang to tell them about the silencer? A. I did not ring them somebody did.
Nothing compelling as far as I can see?
What has any of the above got to do with the fact that a flake of blood was found within the silencer matching 4 of Sheila's blood groups which was capable of distingusing her blood groups from that of the other victims?
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Exactly Rob,how can you have faith in evidence found days or maybe weeks after the crime scene was vacated by the police.Its hardly normal procedure by any means.
It was pored over at trial and heard by judge and jury.
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A dried flake of blood wouldn't have given a true reading as the fact that it had dried had been open to all kinds of contaminants in the air. How long had that flake been there ?
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What has any of the above got to do with the fact that a flake of blood was found within the silencer matching 4 of Sheila's blood groups which was capable of distingusing her blood groups from that of the other victims?
I believe Rob is saying in his WS, DB says he contacted SJ regarding the silencer.
Over a year later during his court testimony DB is saying 'somebody' did.
To Rob that points to Bamber's innocence.
It was probably AE, as she was in contact with Stan Jones.
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Exactly Rob,how can you have faith in evidence found days or maybe weeks after the crime scene was vacated by the police.Its hardly normal procedure by any means.
It's not just how they were found Snow it's all the WS's as well, DB contradicts himself for example.
If I had found the silencer with blood, paint and hair on it, I would have carefully wrapped it up not tried to unscrew it! and took it that very minute straight to the police.
I would not need to be ringing around for advice of what to do!
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I believe Rob is saying in his WS, DB says he contacted SJ regarding the silencer.
Over a year later during his court testimony DB is saying 'somebody' did.
To Rob that points to Bamber's innocence.
It was probably AE, as she was in contact with Stan Jones.
Thanks Adam yes DB contradicts himself plus lots of other issues.
This does not prove innocence, but it greatly undermines the blood evidence.
There were two silencers I think this can almost be proved? differing measurements quoted to 0.1 of a mm cannot be claimed as mistakes.
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Thanks Adam yes DB contradicts himself plus lots of other issues.
This does not prove innocence, but it greatly undermines the blood evidence.
There were two silencers I think this can almost be proved? differing measurements quoted to 0.1 of a mm cannot be claimed as mistakes.
I disagree but appreciate you believe there was an industrial frame.
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Thanks Adam yes DB contradicts himself plus lots of other issues.
This does not prove innocence, but it greatly undermines the blood evidence.
There were two silencers I think this can almost be proved? differing measurements quoted to 0.1 of a mm cannot be claimed as mistakes.
How were 2 silencers used to frame Bamber?
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It's not just how they were found Snow it's all the WS's as well, DB contradicts himself for example.
If I had found the silencer with blood, paint and hair on it, I would have carefully wrapped it up not tried to unscrew it! and took it that very minute straight to the police.
I would not need to be ringing around for advice of what to do!
What you believe you would/wouldn't have done 37 years later is neither here or there.
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Me & Rob agree Sheila would not return the silencer to the gun cupboard.
Rob believes Bamber would be 'home free' if he left the silencer next to Sheila. Although it would then be a crime scene exhibit & the blood inside tested.
We both agree if the relatives believed neither Sheila or Bamber would have put the silencer away, the relatives would not attempt a frame of one piece of evidence.
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It's not just how they were found Snow it's all the WS's as well, DB contradicts himself for example.
If I had found the silencer with blood, paint and hair on it, I would have carefully wrapped it up not tried to unscrew it! and took it that very minute straight to the police.
I would not need to be ringing around for advice of what to do!
To me,it would have proved their eagerness at nailing JB and I'd have smelled a rat.
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A dried flake of blood wouldn't have given a true reading as the fact that it had dried had been open to all kinds of contaminants in the air. How long had that flake been there ?
According to an expert in blood serology the blood needs to have dried to enable forensic collection of the sample and analysis. And the groupings are all within the timescales before they degrade. The lab opened up the silencer on 12th Sept and identified the flake.
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I believe Rob is saying in his WS, DB says he contacted SJ regarding the silencer.
Over a year later during his court testimony DB is saying 'somebody' did.
To Rob that points to Bamber's innocence.
It was probably AE, as she was in contact with Stan Jones.
Ok, thanks for the translation but no idea how this undermines the blood evidence and/or supports Bamber.
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It's not just how they were found Snow it's all the WS's as well, DB contradicts himself for example.
If I had found the silencer with blood, paint and hair on it, I would have carefully wrapped it up not tried to unscrew it! and took it that very minute straight to the police.
I would not need to be ringing around for advice of what to do!
Where's the evidence anyone, other than the lab, unscrewed the silencer?
As I said upthread judge and jury heard all about the finding of the silencer and chain of custody thereafter.
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Thanks Adam yes DB contradicts himself plus lots of other issues.
This does not prove innocence, but it greatly undermines the blood evidence.
There were two silencers I think this can almost be proved? differing measurements quoted to 0.1 of a mm cannot be claimed as mistakes.
Bamber also contradicts himself a lot. Eg whether he called the police or Julie first and this was shortly after the murders so what point are you endeavouring to make re DB?
How does anything you've asserted greatly undermine the blood evidence? If it did Bamber wouldn't still be behind bars.
How does your claim of 2 silencers undermine the one presented at trial along with the highly incriminating blood evidence? NGB has already stated several silencers were examined.
Where are you getting 0.1mm from?
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Ok, thanks for the translation but no idea how this undermines the blood evidence and/or supports Bamber.
Me either. But good that Rob & Mike think outside the box.
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Ok, thanks for the translation but no idea how this undermines the blood evidence and/or supports Bamber.
What do you think of Rob's theory that Bamber would be 'home free' if he had left the silencer next to Sheila?
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Where's the evidence anyone, other than the lab, unscrewed the silencer?
As I said upthread judge and jury heard all about the finding of the silencer and chain of custody thereafter.
A week before Bamber’s trial started, the head of biology at Huntingdon Science Laboratories wrote a letter to Essex Police, seen by the Guardian, saying that the results of the blood tests would show that the blood “could have come from either Sheila Caffell or Robert Boutflour”.
After the jury were sent to reach a verdict, they returned and asked for clarification regarding the silencer. The judge told them it contained only the blood of Sheila Caffell. Seventeen minutes later, they returned and convicted Bamber by a 10 to two majority.
If the blood tested was a mixture of different peoples then the blood being either Sheila's or RB's is not certain?
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A week before Bamber’s trial started, the head of biology at Huntingdon Science Laboratories wrote a letter to Essex Police, seen by the Guardian, saying that the results of the blood tests would show that the blood “could have come from either Sheila Caffell or Robert Boutflour”.
After the jury were sent to reach a verdict, they returned and asked for clarification regarding the silencer. The judge told them it contained only the blood of Sheila Caffell. Seventeen minutes later, they returned and convicted Bamber by a 10 to two majority.
If the blood tested was a mixture of different peoples then the blood being either Sheila's or RB's is not certain?
Why would the head of biology say that? RB was not a victim or the accused.
The police would not have asked for information regarding RB.
Bamber only started focusing on the silencer & the relatives in the 90's.
Is that article from Eric Allison?
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It is very sick accusing the relatives of fabricating the silencer. Espescially as it was impossible to do.
But there will always be a handful.
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What do you think of Rob's theory that Bamber would be 'home free' if he had left the silencer next to Sheila?
I struggle to follow Rob's train of thought in most regards and certainly with regard to the blood/silencer.
No idea how Bamber would be 'home free' had he left the silencer next to Sheila? The tiny amount of blood on the outside and just inside the bore (visible from outside) was confirmed as blood and human in origin but too small for further analysis so no one can say for certain whether the individual blood stains originated from Sheila or Nevill (during the beating) or a combi of both. The paint would still support the scratches etc. When opened up Bamber would be where he is now.
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I struggle to follow Rob's train of thought in most regards and certainly with regard to the blood/silencer.
No idea how Bamber would be 'home free' had he left the silencer next to Sheila? The tiny amount of blood on the outside and just inside the bore (visible from outside) was confirmed as blood and human in origin but too small for further analysis so no one can say for certain whether the individual blood stains originated from Sheila or Nevill (during the beating) or a combi of both. The paint would still support the scratches etc. When opened up Bamber would be where he is now.
Me & Rob agree that Sheila would have left the silencer next to her.
If the relatives agreed with Rob that Bamber would have left the silencer next to Sheila, we both agree they would not have attempted the fabrication.
So either the relatives agree with me & disagree with Rob. Or Bamber put the silencer away.
The supporting evidence against Bamber suggests Bamber put the silencer away.
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A week before Bamber’s trial started, the head of biology at Huntingdon Science Laboratories wrote a letter to Essex Police, seen by the Guardian, saying that the results of the blood tests would show that the blood “could have come from either Sheila Caffell or Robert Boutflour”.
After the jury were sent to reach a verdict, they returned and asked for clarification regarding the silencer. The judge told them it contained only the blood of Sheila Caffell. Seventeen minutes later, they returned and convicted Bamber by a 10 to two majority.
If the blood tested was a mixture of different peoples then the blood being either Sheila's or RB's is not certain?
I have already pointed out that the expert for the defence pre-trial stated that about 8% of unrelated white British people would be expected to share Sheila's blood groupings which match the flake. I have never seen any evidence for the relatives submitting their blood for analysis other than a claim in Wilkes' book so no idea if there's any truth in it. I would be surprised if a biologist would describe the above using the words you've quoted since the blood in theory could have come from about 8% of unrelated white British people and isn't statistically individualising unlike blood analysis using DNA. There may well be others who handled the silencer who also shared those blood groups eg those in the manufacturing process, retailers, Jean Boutell who might have come into contact with it in her capacity of housekeeper so why would a scientist single out RWB? Realistically how would anyone's blood enter the silencer if not from 'drawback'?
Are you able to upload a copy of the letter?
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I have already pointed out that the expert for the defence pre-trial stated that about 8% of unrelated white British people would be expected to share Sheila's blood groupings which match the flake. I have never seen any evidence for the relatives submitting their blood for analysis other than a claim in Wilkes' book so no idea if there's any truth in it. I would be surprised if a biologist would describe the above using the words you've quoted since the blood in theory could have come from about 8% of unrelated white British people and isn't statistically individualising unlike blood analysis using DNA. There may well be others who handled the silencer who also shared those blood groups eg those in the manufacturing process, retailers, Jean Boutell who might have come into contact with it in her capacity of housekeeper so why would a scientist single out RWB? Realistically how would anyone's blood enter the silencer if not from 'drawback'?
Are you able to upload a copy of the letter?
The point is the jury were told it was Sheila's blood when they asked for clarification, 8% of the population had Sheila's blood group and the sample of blood tested could have been a mixture of blood from several people, which would render the result almost meaningless.
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The point is the jury were told it was Sheila's blood when they asked for clarification, 8% of the population had Sheila's blood group and the sample of blood tested could have been a mixture of blood from several people, which would render the result almost meaningless.
8% of the population were not on trial. And neither were the relatives.
The jury were told it matched Sheila's blood group. With a remote possibility of it being a mixture of June"s & Nevill's.
The judge is not obliged to say the blood group matches 8% of the population.
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The point is the jury were told it was Sheila's blood when they asked for clarification, 8% of the population had Sheila's blood group and the sample of blood tested could have been a mixture of blood from several people, which would render the result almost meaningless.
Courts are concerned with plausibility not fanciful notions. The court heard the defence arguments about the blood flake representing an "intimate" mix of June and Nevill's blood but rejected this on the basis that Sheila's as a stand alone from 'drawback' was more compelling. How would anyone elses blood realistically enter inside the silencer? If you're able to respond please by very specific.
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Courts are concerned with plausibility not fanciful notions. The court heard the defence arguments about the blood flake representing an "intimate" mix of June and Nevill's blood but rejected this on the basis that Sheila's as a stand alone from 'drawback' was more compelling. How would anyone elses blood realistically enter inside the silencer? If you're able to respond please by very specific.
This is all argued in Wilkes book Cutie,and Adam knows this.The Judge took liberties detailing the blood evidence to the jury.A mixture of the other victims blood is well within the realms of possibility.
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8% of the population were not on trial. And neither were the relatives.
The jury were told it matched Sheila's blood group. With a remote possibility of it being a mixture of June"s & Nevill's.
The judge is not obliged to say the blood group matches 8% of the population.
Or that it matches DB's.
The jury knew the relatives found the silencer. So had plenty of time to think up crazy theories.
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This is all argued in Wilkes book Cutie,and Adam knows this.The Judge took liberties detailing the blood evidence to the jury.A mixture of the other victims blood is well within the realms of possibility.
More importantly it was all argued at court long before Wilkes' book. In what way did the judge take liberties detailing the blood evidence to the jury? The "intimate" mix theory was put before the court but rejected.
Bamber's 1989 appeal was based on the judge's summing up and got nowhere.
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More importantly it was all argued at court long before Wilkes' book. In what way did the judge take liberties detailing the blood evidence to the jury? The "intimate" mix theory was put before the court but rejected.
Bamber's 1989 appeal was based on the judge's summing up and got nowhere.
Will give you a reply shortly Cutie.
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More importantly it was all argued at court long before Wilkes' book. In what way did the judge take liberties detailing the blood evidence to the jury? The "intimate" mix theory was put before the court but rejected.
Bamber's 1989 appeal was based on the judge's summing up and got nowhere.
He misinterpreted John Hayward's remarks on being able to assess the blood on appearance alone.
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He misinterpreted John Hayward's remarks on being able to assess the blood on appearance alone.
Thank you Steve,that is part of it.
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Courts are concerned with plausibility not fanciful notions. The court heard the defence arguments about the blood flake representing an "intimate" mix of June and Nevill's blood but rejected this on the basis that Sheila's as a stand alone from 'drawback' was more compelling. How would anyone elses blood realistically enter inside the silencer? If you're able to respond please by very specific.
Well if Sheila's blood got into the silencer from one or both neck shots due to back spatter then how can you say the shoot to June (the one between the ..) the head shots to the twins and Nevil not result in a mixture of blood getting into the silencer?
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Well if Sheila's blood got into the silencer from one or both neck shots due to back spatter then how can you say the shoot to June (the one between the ..) the head shots to the twins and Nevil not result in a mixture of blood getting into the silencer?
One could say that none of Nevill or June's wounds were contact shots. It's possible that Daniel's heart stopped after the first bullet, meaning there would be no drawback from the four shots in close proximity to the skull. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4405.0.html
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From Wilkes book--;In fact both John Hayward and the Judge admitted that the blood could have been a mixture of Nevill and June Bambers blood,but that this was a remote possibility,' They claim that only DNA testing could prove the point beyond any doubt,I n the absence of DNA testing,they declared in a report compiled for the Home Office in 1990, 'it would be impossible to differentiate between one person's blood and another,--
Also the blood should have been tested in solution to be sure it was from only one person,Hayward later admitted that he did not think this had been done,and that it was not routine procedure,
Later,Hayward also did tests to see if the silencer heated up after being firsd numerous times to dry out blood inside it.The silencer did not heat up and the blood remained liquid,so could easily mix with further blood entering into it.
And isn't it strange that Bamber has always pushed to have exhibits re-examined if he is guilty? Why try to DNA test the silencer in 2002 if he knew it was Sheilas blood inside it? He would have done everything he could to prevent the test surely,else it would have ended his charade.
Indeed it was the police who illegally destroyed evidence which could have helped clear things up.And didn;t the testing of the silencer find an unknown males DNA?
No,I dont think its just quite as cut and dried as Cutie and Adam believe.
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One could say that none of Nevill or June's wounds were contact shots. It's possible that Daniel's heart stopped after the first bullet, meaning there would be no drawback from the four shots in close proximity to the skull. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4405.0.html
The shots don't have to be contact shots Steve unless I am mistaken, but with the .22 rifle used they would need to be fairly close?
The other thing with head shots is that the person my be clinically dead but the heart can continue to beat for a while.
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From Wilkes book--;In fact both John Hayward and the Judge admitted that the blood could have been a mixture of Nevill and June Bambers blood,but that this was a remote possibility,' They claim that only DNA testing could prove the point beyond any doubt,I n the absence of DNA testing,they declared in a report compiled for the Home Office in 1990, 'it would be impossible to differentiate between one person's blood and another,--
Also the blood should have been tested in solution to be sure it was from only one person,Hayward later admitted that he did not think this had been done,and that it was not routine procedure,
Later,Hayward also did tests to see if the silencer heated up after being firsd numerous times to dry out blood inside it.The silencer did not heat up and the blood remained liquid,so could easily mix with further blood entering into it.
And isn't it strange that Bamber has always pushed to have exhibits re-examined if he is guilty? Why try to DNA test the silencer in 2002 if he knew it was Sheilas blood inside it? He would have done everything he could to prevent the test surely,else it would have ended his charade.
Indeed it was the police who illegally destroyed evidence which could have helped clear things up.And didn;t the testing of the silencer find an unknown males DNA?
No,I dont think its just quite as cut and dried as Cutie and Adam believe.
Yes I believe so Snow and although samples from Sheila and June were not available by comparing DNA from their mothers the blood was 3500 times more likely to be from June, so it's looks doubtful Sheila's blood was even in the silencer at all.
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Yes I believe so Snow and although samples from Sheila and June were not available by comparing DNA from their mothers the blood was 3500 times more likely to be from June, so it's looks doubtful Sheila's blood was even in the silencer at all.
Thanks Rob,I did not know that.Very interesting.
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Yes I believe so Snow and although samples from Sheila and June were not available by comparing DNA from their mothers the blood was 3500 times more likely to be from June, so it's looks doubtful Sheila's blood was even in the silencer at all.
Sheila couldn't be excluded. https://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/5462312.north-essex-new-dna-result-on-gun-silencer/
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Sheila couldn't be excluded. https://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/5462312.north-essex-new-dna-result-on-gun-silencer/
No Steve,but it kind of turns things around to Bambers favour dosen;t it?
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No,I dont think its just quite as cut and dried as Cutie and Adam believe.
Since CC believes the silencer was a fabrication. Maybe she can explain her own theory on how that happened?
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Yes I believe so Snow and although samples from Sheila and June were not available by comparing DNA from their mothers the blood was 3500 times more likely to be from June, so it's looks doubtful Sheila's blood was even in the silencer at all.
June's DNA likely got in the silencer through unintentional contamination.
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Well if Sheila's blood got into the silencer from one or both neck shots due to back spatter then how can you say the shoot to June (the one between the ..) the head shots to the twins and Nevil not result in a mixture of blood getting into the silencer?
I agree the silencer was used. But why didn't Sheila just leave it beside her?
Sheila's shots are most likely to cause back spatter - contact shots in an area of high blood flow.
Doubtful June, Nevill, Daniel or Nicholas received contact shots. Only June received a shot in a similar location to Sheila.
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The shots don't have to be contact shots Steve unless I am mistaken, but with the .22 rifle used they would need to be fairly close?
The other thing with head shots is that the person my be clinically dead but the heart can continue to beat for a while.
Disagree with that. It was a low powered rifle which Nevill would have instantly taken off Daniel, Nicholas or Sheila.
It would have to be contact shots in an area of high blood flow.
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Yes I believe so Snow and although samples from Sheila and June were not available by comparing DNA from their mothers the blood was 3500 times more likely to be from June, so it's looks doubtful Sheila's blood was even in the silencer at all.
Wow that turns things 360 degrees.
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The shots don't have to be contact shots Steve unless I am mistaken, but with the .22 rifle used they would need to be fairly close?
The other thing with head shots is that the person my be clinically dead but the heart can continue to beat for a while.
455.
Mr Hayward said that the conclusions of Dr Vanezis, the pathologist, and Mr Fletcher, the firearms expert, supported his view that the blood was from Sheila Caffell alone.
Because their findings suggested that only Sheila Caffell had been shot with the gun in contact with her skin or from "very close range".
He would have been very surprised to find blood within the moderator from a person who had not been shot with the end of the moderator in contact with that person or at least very close to it.
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As said Sheila was also shot in an area of high blood flow.
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63.
Of the seven injuries suffered by June Bamber, five were shots from the gun held at least one foot away from the body.
The bullet wound between the eyes was fired from less than one foot away, and could have been with the gun in contact with the skin, although he viewed that as unlikely.
Mr Fletcher was unable to estimate the range of the shot which had caused the injury to the right side of Mrs Bamber's chest.
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So unlikely June received any contact shots. Certainly not in an area of high blood flow.
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65.
As regards the twins, four of the five injuries suffered by Daniel were caused when the gun was held within one foot of his head, the fifth was from over two feet away.
The three wounds to Nicholas were contact or close proximity shots.
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So possible contact shots into Nicholas. But not in an area of high blood flow.
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64.
In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin.
The remaining injuries to the arm were caused when the gun was at least two feet from the body.
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So no contact shots into Nevill.
The skull & torso shots were not in areas of high blood flow.
The two jaw shots were when Nevill was in bed and starting to react to June's 5 shots. Bamber would not manage to get contact shots.
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62.
Mr Fletcher also gave evidence of the range at which the shots had been fired.
The lower (and not immediately fatal) of the injuries suffered by Sheila Caffell was caused when the muzzle of the gun was within three inches of the throat.
The upper injury was a contact shot.
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In conclusion on the 25 shots -:
It was impossible to produce back spatter from the rifle from 20 of the shots. Due to distance.
The 3 contact/close proximity shots into Nicholas are ruled out. Due to the skull being an area of low blood flow.
Only Sheila received a contact shot in an area of high blood flow.
There is also a possibility the shot into Sheila from 'within 3 inches' away caused back spatter. As the shot was in an area of high blood flow
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Bamber committed the massacre with silencer attached. It was a silent massacre attempt.
Shooting Sheila last.
He went downstairs with rifle/silencer to return silencer to gun cupboard prior to burning Nevill's back.
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Well if Sheila's blood got into the silencer from one or both neck shots due to back spatter then how can you say the shoot to June (the one between the ..) the head shots to the twins and Nevil not result in a mixture of blood getting into the silencer?
The following shows the victims' blood groupings along with that of the flake. The best the defence could argue is that the flake represented a mixture of June and Nevill's blood groups which then matches Sheila's blood groups and the flake. But as Adam has pointed out this argument does not really get off the ground since they didn't sustain wounds which would result in 'drawback' or the blood entering the silencer in any other way. The twins can be ruled out since the flake did not include their HP group.
ABO PGM EAP AK HP
Nevill Bamber O PGM1+ EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
June Bamber A PGM1+ EAP BA AK2-1 Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell O PGM2+1+ EAP B AK1 Hp2
Nicholas Caffell O PGM2+1+ EAP B AK1 Hp2
Sheila Caffell A PGM1+ EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
Blood Flake A EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
ABO = Blood Group System (Antigens)
PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme)
EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)
AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)
HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)
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Yes I believe so Snow and although samples from Sheila and June were not available by comparing DNA from their mothers the blood was 3500 times more likely to be from June, so it's looks doubtful Sheila's blood was even in the silencer at all.
The CoA and experts for boths sides pretty much agreed the LCN DNA results were meaningless since LCN DNA is unable to identify the biological source and works off samples as small as a millionth the size of a grain of salt. As DNA testing wasn't in use at the time the Bamber exhibits were examined no precautions were taken to prevent contamination eg jurors handled blood stained items such as June's nightdress alongside the silencer.
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From Wilkes book--;In fact both John Hayward and the Judge admitted that the blood could have been a mixture of Nevill and June Bambers blood,but that this was a remote possibility,' They claim that only DNA testing could prove the point beyond any doubt,I n the absence of DNA testing,they declared in a report compiled for the Home Office in 1990, 'it would be impossible to differentiate between one person's blood and another,--
Also the blood should have been tested in solution to be sure it was from only one person,Hayward later admitted that he did not think this had been done,and that it was not routine procedure,
Later,Hayward also did tests to see if the silencer heated up after being firsd numerous times to dry out blood inside it.The silencer did not heat up and the blood remained liquid,so could easily mix with further blood entering into it.
And isn't it strange that Bamber has always pushed to have exhibits re-examined if he is guilty? Why try to DNA test the silencer in 2002 if he knew it was Sheilas blood inside it? He would have done everything he could to prevent the test surely,else it would have ended his charade.
Indeed it was the police who illegally destroyed evidence which could have helped clear things up.And didn;t the testing of the silencer find an unknown males DNA?
No,I dont think its just quite as cut and dried as Cutie and Adam believe.
I haven't seen any forensic reports on this test? The silencer and rifle were not destroyed and afaik are still available.
The LCN DNA testing of the silencer did produce a result for an unidentified male but this is hardly suprising given the way LCN DNA works (see post above) and the fact procedures were not in place to protect against contamination at the time since it was before DNA testing was used. Even if procedures were in place to protect against contamination once it entered custody you would need to eliminate all those who ever handled the materials in the manufacturing of the silencer, wholesalers, retailers and anyone else who came into near contact with it.
I think its the likes of yourself snowie and Rob who have not done your homework properly and fail to understand how compelling the blood evidence is against Bamber. Perhaps when you do you will covert to guiltism :P
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Since CC believes the silencer was a fabrication. Maybe she can explain her own theory on how that happened?
Since you are convinced AE wrung out Sheila's soaking in a bucket menstrual stained knickers to contaminate the silencer why would you care what I think whether I believe it was a fabrication or not? One has to come to the inevitable in the end!
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He misinterpreted John Hayward's remarks on being able to assess the blood on appearance alone.
Yes but realistically the defence argument about the mixed blood (Nevill and June) didn't really hold water since none of their injuries supported a mechanism whereby blood would enter the silencer. The prosecution argument about Sheila and drawback was far more compelling hence the jury's verdict.
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I have confirmed the blood inside the silencer could only be Sheila's.
Twenty of the 25 shots were too far away for back spatter.
The contact/close proximity shots to Nicholas were in an area of low blood flow.
Sheila received a contact and a 'within 3 inches' shot. In an area of high blood flow.
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The following shows the victims' blood groupings along with that of the flake. The best the defence could argue is that the flake represented a mixture of June and Nevill's blood groups which then matches Sheila's blood groups and the flake. But as Adam has pointed out this argument does not really get off the ground since they didn't sustain wounds which would result in 'drawback' or the blood entering the silencer in any other way. The twins can be ruled out since the flake did not include their HP group.
ABO PGM EAP AK HP
Nevill Bamber O PGM1+ EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
June Bamber A PGM1+ EAP BA AK2-1 Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell O PGM2+1+ EAP B AK1 Hp2
Nicholas Caffell O PGM2+1+ EAP B AK1 Hp2
Sheila Caffell A PGM1+ EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
Blood Flake A EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
ABO = Blood Group System (Antigens)
PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme)
EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)
AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)
HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)
By any chance, have you also got PB and DB's groupings to hand?
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By any chance, have you also got PB and DB's groupings to hand?
No. I have never seen any firm evidence their blood was analysed in this way other than a claim in Wilkes' book. Even if it did match the flake how would their blood enter the silencer?
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Both supporters & guilters agree a guilty Bamber would result in Sheila's blood being in the silencer.
Due to the shot distances & locations of the other 23 shots.
Tests on the silencer confirmed it was Sheila's blood. I believe with 13 out of 17 markings matching Sheila's.
DB putting his blood into the silencer is a non starter.
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.readytogo.net/smb/threads/jeremy-bamber-white-house-farm-innocent-or-evil-scumbag.1500884/page-35&ved=2ahUKEwiR9_Wapvj5AhUSilwKHYkvBg8QFnoECDQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw175LZpYMYVhDcGWE8XD0ls
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=77.msg526#msg526
Here is some information on the markers. It is 17 out of 20.
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17 out of 20 marks matching Sheila, rules out DB.
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No. I have never seen any firm evidence their blood was analysed in this way other than a claim in Wilkes' book. Even if it did match the flake how would their blood enter the silencer?
Well given that no scientific evidence was presented to show how Sheila's blood got in to the same exhibit, I'm not sure that's the right question.
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I suspect David came up with the crazy diluted period blood theory as he knew 17 out of 20 markers rules out DB.
David's theory was dismissed years ago. So another explanation is needed into how Sheila's blood got into the silencer.
Maybe it was back spatter from a contact & 'within 3 inches' shot into an area of high blood flow.
Just a thought.
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I haven't seen any forensic reports on this test? The silencer and rifle were not destroyed and afaik are still available.
The LCN DNA testing of the silencer did produce a result for an unidentified male but this is hardly suprising given the way LCN DNA works (see post above) and the fact procedures were not in place to protect against contamination at the time since it was before DNA testing was used. Even if procedures were in place to protect against contamination once it entered custody you would need to eliminate all those who ever handled the materials in the manufacturing of the silencer, wholesalers, retailers and anyone else who came into near contact with it.
I think its the likes of yourself snowie and Rob who have not done your homework properly and fail to understand how compelling the blood evidence is against Bamber. Perhaps when you do you will covert to guiltism :P
Will do my homework Miss Cutsie and see if I have an epiphany. ;)
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.readytogo.net/smb/threads/jeremy-bamber-white-house-farm-innocent-or-evil-scumbag.1500884/page-35&ved=2ahUKEwiR9_Wapvj5AhUSilwKHYkvBg8QFnoECDQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw175LZpYMYVhDcGWE8XD0ls
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=77.msg526#msg526
Here is some information on the markers. It is 17 out of 20.
Thanks Adam I won't be joining the red forum.
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The following shows the victims' blood groupings along with that of the flake. The best the defence could argue is that the flake represented a mixture of June and Nevill's blood groups which then matches Sheila's blood groups and the flake. But as Adam has pointed out this argument does not really get off the ground since they didn't sustain wounds which would result in 'drawback' or the blood entering the silencer in any other way. The twins can be ruled out since the flake did not include their HP group.
ABO PGM EAP AK HP
Nevill Bamber O PGM1+ EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
June Bamber A PGM1+ EAP BA AK2-1 Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell O PGM2+1+ EAP B AK1 Hp2
Nicholas Caffell O PGM2+1+ EAP B AK1 Hp2
Sheila Caffell A PGM1+ EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
Blood Flake A EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
ABO = Blood Group System (Antigens)
PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme)
EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)
AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)
HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)
Thanks Cc for your detailed reply, do you have any idea why the PGM grouping was missing from the flake? I have come up against a wall looking into this?
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Supporters need to find a way Sheila's blood got into the silencer.
Via DB has been dismissed due to the 17 out of 20 markers.
Good luck.
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Supporters need to find a way Sheila's blood got into the silencer.
Via DB has been dismissed due to the 17 out of 20 markers.
Good luck.
Can you explain these markers? the DNA was 3500 times more likely to be Junes, although Sheila's DNA being present could not be ruled out. You seem to be claiming it as fact it was Sheila's?
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Can you explain these markers? the DNA was 3500 times more likely to be Junes, although Sheila's DNA being present could not be ruled out. You seem to be claiming it as fact it was Sheila's?
I am not a scientist.
You need to find a way Sheila's blood got into the silencer. Not via diluted period blood or DB.
Guilters say because Bamber shot her twice in an area of high blood flow. One a contact shot. The other a shot 'within 3 inches' away.
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I am not a scientist.
You need to find a way Sheila's blood got into the silencer. Not via diluted period blood or DB.
Guilters say because Bamber shot her twice in an area of high blood flow. One a contact shot. The other a shot 'within 3 inches' away.
My posts earlier today show only Sheila's blood would be in the silencer. Due to -
Distance of other shots.
Locations of other shots.
Both.
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Can you explain these markers? the DNA was 3500 times more likely to be Junes, although Sheila's DNA being present could not be ruled out. You seem to be claiming it as fact it was Sheila's?
Rob if you read #496 it explains in more detail: http://www.homepage-link.to/JUSTICE/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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Rob if you read #496 it explains in more detail: http://www.homepage-link.to/JUSTICE/judgements/Bamber/index.html
Thank you. Had not seen that.
Could the remaining 3 supporters - Rob, Snow66! & ILB be changing stance today?
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Rob if you read #496 it explains in more detail: http://www.homepage-link.to/JUSTICE/judgements/Bamber/index.html
Thanks Steve so what Adam is claiming is untrue all we can really say is Sheila's DNA could not be ruled out, but much more likely to be Junes.
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Since you are convinced AE wrung out Sheila's soaking in a bucket menstrual stained knickers to contaminate the silencer why would you care what I think whether I believe it was a fabrication or not? One has to come to the inevitable in the end!
What is your theory on how it was fabricated?
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No. I have never seen any firm evidence their blood was analysed in this way other than a claim in Wilkes' book.
Yes, you have. I posted it on the IA forum back in December 2017 and you commented on it. Thus you have seen it.
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Thank you. Had not seen that.
Could the remaining 3 supporters - Rob, Snow66! & ILB be changing stance today?
Not yet Adam I am afraid, can you explain why SJ said the blood on the silencer looked recent?
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Thanks Steve so what Adam is claiming is untrue all we can really say is Sheila's DNA could not be ruled out, but much more likely to be Junes.
17 out of 20. Seems pretty convinving.
One thing is for sure, DB didn't put his blood in there. That's always been a sick theory.
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496:
In the interpretation of the results, Dr Clayton called on behalf of the appellant and Miss Groombridge, called on behalf of the prosecution disagreed to a limited extent.
Both agreed that Sheila Caffell could have contributed to this mixture of DNA but Miss Groombridge was prepared to go further and say that the findings provided support for the proposition that she had contributed to the mixture. She was, however, unable to determine the level of support provided.
In her evidence to the court she explained her reasoning. Seventeen of the twenty bands attributable to Sheila Caffell had been detected in DNA from the internal swabbings.
Random chance would have suggested thirteen common bands would be found and hence since there was significantly more than thirteen, it provided some support for the DNA of Sheila Caffell being in the moderator.
However, Miss Groombridge was unable to perform any sort of statistical evaluation of the likelihood of this happening and hence unable to assess the strength of the support.
Dr Clayton, whilst acknowledging the respect that he had for Miss Groombridge's views and whilst recognising the possible validity of the point that she made, felt that it was unsafe to draw any such conclusion.
Whilst we recognise that there may very well be merit in Miss Groombridge's evidence in this regard, we doubt very much whether a jury would have been prepared to place any significant reliance upon it so that it might have altered any view which they otherwise would have reached.
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Sheila was the only person who -
Received a contact shot in an area of high blood flow.
Received a shot 'within 3 inches' in an area of high blood flow.
Whose blood was 100% in the silencer. Together with the aga scratches.
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Not sure what else can be supplied.
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Sheila's blood being in the silencer matches the crime scene evidence.
Going by shot distances & shot locations of each of the 5 people.
Not sure what else can be supplied.
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17 out of 20. Seems pretty convinving.
One thing is for sure, DB didn't put his blood in there. That's always been a sick theory.
Not when you would expect 13 just by chance, please post honestly Adam.
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Sheila's blood being in the silencer matches the crime scene evidence.
Going by shot distances & shot locations of each of the 5 people.
Not sure what else can be supplied.
Well the jury were far from certain, it's only when they were told a porky by the judge it then took them 20mins or so to convict.
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17 out of 20. Seems pretty convinving.
One thing is for sure, DB didn't put his blood in there. That's always been a sick theory.
I have not seen anyone claim DB did?
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Whose blood was 100% in the silencer. Together with the aga scratches.
You have no evidence to show the blood was in the silencer and the aga scratches existed prior to the relatives having access to the scene.
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Sheila's blood being in the silencer matches the crime scene evidence.
No, it does not.
"34. The evidence of Dr Fowler is set out in a more substantial report. That report has been peer?reviewed by Dr Dragovich, who is Chief Medical Examiner in Oakland County, Michigan and Dr Marcella Fierro, who is the retired Chief Medical Examiner to the Commonwealth of Virginia. Both have qualifications as forensic pathologists. In his careful report, Dr Fowler makes clear that he has reviewed the evidence, which was available in relation to the wounds. He concluded that the abrasions found were consistent with those of a rifle without a silencer, that there were no distinctive marks on the body which showed that a silencer had been attached, and the residue was consistent with contact wounds. "
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You have no evidence to show the blood was in the silencer and the aga scratches existed prior to the relatives having access to the scene.
No evidence?
Errr the relatives handed in a silencer with blood & paint on.
When tested it was the aga paint.
When tested it was 100% Sheila's blood.
Errr Sheila was the only person receiving a contact shot in an area of high blood flow.
Errr Bamber was convicted & has failed to get this overturned.
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David can kick & scream as much as he wants. Posting his own sources in red or black to try to enhance them.
But the crime scene bullet locations & shot firing distances confirm only Sheila's blood will be in the silencer.
Oh & the evidence is it is Sheila's blood in the silencer - 17 out of 20 markers.
Oh & the aga paint is in the silencer.
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The sick theories regarding diluted period blood and DB must stop.
Supporters are still entitled to say 'Yes it is Sheila's blood. Yes Sheila couldn't shoot herself with the silencer attached. But that doesn't make Bamber guilty'.
Good luck with that.
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No evidence?
Errr the relatives handed in a silencer with blood & paint on.
When tested it was the aga paint.
When tested it was 100% Sheila's blood.
Errr Sheila was the only person receiving a contact shot in an area of high blood flow.
Errr Bamber was convicted & has failed to get this overturned.
So, no evidence to show the blood was in the silencer and the aga scratches existed prior to the relatives having access to the scene.
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I have not seen anyone claim DB did?
Supporters are always claiming DB put his own blood in the silencer.
This sick theory is now null & void. Pleased you agree.
How do you believe Sheila's blood got into the silencer if not by a contact & 'within 3 inches' shot in an area of high blood flow?
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David can kick & scream as much as he wants. Posting his own sources in red or black to try to enhance them.
But the crime scene bullet locations & shot firing distances confirm only Sheila's blood will be in the silencer.
Oh & the evidence is it is Sheila's blood in the silencer - 17 out of 20 markers.
Oh & the aga paint is in the silencer.
I am not disputing that its Sheila's blood in the silencer. The ballistic evidence on Sheila's chin simply shows her blood did not get in the silencer from taking her own life. Instead it was put their via deliberate contamination at a later date.
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I am not disputing that its Sheila's blood in the silencer. The ballistic evidence on Sheila's chin simply shows her blood did not get in the silencer from taking her own life. Instead it was put their via deliberate contamination at a later date.
It is good that you agree it is Sheila's blood. Hopefully there will be no more sick insinuations about DB.
You obviously agree Sheila's blood would enter the silencer from contact/within 3 inch shots in an area of high blood flow.
However you do not believe this happened. So need to give a credible alternative way how Sheila's blood got into the silencer. And please do say diluted period blood. That is sick.
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Supporters are always claiming DB put his own blood in the silencer.
This sick theory is now null & void. Pleased you agree.
How do you believe Sheila's blood got into the silencer if not by a contact & 'within 3 inches' shot in an area of high blood flow?
We don't know for certain if it was Sheila's blood, all we can say is it was either the same blood group as Sheila or a mixture.
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We don't know for certain if it was Sheila's blood, all we can say is it was either the same blood group as Sheila or a mixture.
Yes you do. But do not want to accept it.
Sheila was the only victim who received a contact & close range shot in an area of high blood flow.
Of course the human blood in the silencer was her back spatter blood.
No more sick insinuations about DB please.
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I am not disputing that its Sheila's blood in the silencer. The ballistic evidence on Sheila's chin simply shows her blood did not get in the silencer from taking her own life. Instead it was put their via deliberate contamination at a later date.
That's a huge leap to make.
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Yes you do. But do not want to accept it.
Sheila was the only victim who received a contact & close range shot in an area of high blood flow.
Of course the human blood in the silencer was her back spatter blood.
No more sick insinuations about DB please.
I have never claimed he put blood into the silencer, I don't believe a killer would put the silencer in the cupboard complete with hair, blood and paint on it. If that is a sick insinuation then sorry.
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I have never claimed he put blood into the silencer, I don't believe a killer would put the silencer in the cupboard complete with hair, blood and paint on it. If that is a sick insinuation then sorry.
He didn't see the paint, blood & hair. It's called a criminal making a mistake.
Besides which he put the silencer away from the crime scene. The police didn't check it.
His next mistake - going on his first holiday.
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He didn't see the paint, blood & hair. It's called a criminal making a mistake.
Besides which he put the silencer away from the crime scene. The police didn't check it.
His next mistake - going on his first holiday.
They did five officers checked the cupboard.
Anyway I have a question for you why is it that Nevil does not bleed and Sheila does? She would have fallen back in seconds, and I don't consider the neck / throat anywhere near as likely to produce back spatter as a head shot would?
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Both supporters & guilters agree it was a mistake Bamber going on his first holiday so soon after the massacre.
He was dead chuffed after meeting Basil Cock straight after the massacre. Guess he wanted to celebrate.
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Why did he break into White House Farm on 16th September? Don't the Bamberettes find this a trifle suspicious?
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They did five officers checked the cupboard.
Anyway I have a question for you why is it that Nevil does not bleed and Sheila does? She would have fallen back in seconds, and I don't consider the neck / throat anywhere near as likely to produce back spatter as a head shot would?
Just doing an inventory.
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They did five officers checked the cupboard.
Anyway I have a question for you why is it that Nevil does not bleed and Sheila does? She would have fallen back in seconds, and I don't consider the neck / throat anywhere near as likely to produce back spatter as a head shot would?
Nevill did bleed. In the kitchen.
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They did five officers checked the cupboard.
Anyway I have a question for you why is it that Nevil does not bleed and Sheila does? She would have fallen back in seconds, and I don't consider the neck / throat anywhere near as likely to produce back spatter as a head shot would?
You are in the minority there. David agrees Sheila was shot in an area of high blood flow.
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You are in the minority there. David agrees Sheila was shot in an area of high blood flow.
That's all JB had to do, leave the silencer in a area where Sheila's blood would get on it. Months and months of planning and he puts it in the cupboard, then goes on holiday for it to be discovered.
Sounds plausible ;)
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A silencer was found under the parents bed originally----so who put it in the cupboard ?
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That's all JB had to do, leave the silencer in a area where Sheila's blood would get on it. Months and months of planning and he puts it in the cupboard, then goes on holiday for it to be discovered.
Sounds plausible ;)
Where could he leave the silencer where Sheila's blood would get deep inside the baffles?
Doubtful Bamber was aware of back spatter or that he even knew beforehand the rifle with silencer was too long for Sheila.
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That's all JB had to do, leave the silencer in a area where Sheila's blood would get on it. Months and months of planning and he puts it in the cupboard, then goes on holiday for it to be discovered.
Sounds plausible ;)
Both guilters & supporters agree he went on holiday soon after the massacre.
Believing the police had finished at WHF & the relatives had accepted his version.
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That's all JB had to do, leave the silencer in a area where Sheila's blood would get on it. Months and months of planning and he puts it in the cupboard, then goes on holiday for it to be discovered.
Sounds plausible ;)
Putting something back in it's usual place.
What is the world coming to?
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A silencer was found under the parents bed originally----so who put it in the cupboard ?
;D
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Where could he leave the silencer where Sheila's blood would get deep inside the baffles?
Doubtful Bamber was aware of back spatter or that he even knew beforehand the rifle with silencer was too long for Sheila.
No knowledge of back spatter required, does back spatter explain where the blood was actually found within the silencer I don't think so? perhaps you can help me?
As for leaving the silencer where it can become covered with Sheila's blood, if he cannot find a suitable spot he just takes the silencer with him he and chucks it in the sea he does not put it in the cupboard!
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No knowledge of back spatter required, does back spatter explain where the blood was actually found within the silencer I don't think so? perhaps you can help me?
As for leaving the silencer where it can become covered with Sheila's blood, if he cannot find a suitable spot he just takes the silencer with him he and chucks it in the sea he does not put it in the cupboard!
What you think 37 years later he should have done is neither here or there.
He did what he did. Lots of reasons why.
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No knowledge of back spatter required, does back spatter explain where the blood was actually found within the silencer I don't think so? perhaps you can help me?
As for leaving the silencer where it can become covered with Sheila's blood, if he cannot find a suitable spot he just takes the silencer with him he and chucks it in the sea he does not put it in the cupboard!
Yes.
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Anyway the forensic evidence is it was Sheila's blood in the silencer. With 17 out of 20 markers. Even David agrees.
The crime scene evidence shows why Sheila's blood would be in the silencer.
Supporters need to find a credible alternative explanation to Bamber shooting Sheila & creating the back spatter.
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Yes.
Explain then? show me a cross section through the silencer showing where the blood was found and how back spatter explains this. Don'd forget a spray travels in straight lines.
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Explain then? show me a cross section through the silencer showing where the blood was found and how back spatter explains this. Don'd forget a spray travels in straight lines.
No. You know full well Sheila's blood inside the silencer was a result of back spatter.
Unless you can think of an alternative explanation.
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No. You know full well Sheila's blood inside the silencer was a result of back spatter.
Unless you can think of an alternative explanation.
You can't well no surprise, I must admit it's a bit tricky explaining how back spatter causes blood to get into two silencers at the same time, a flake in one and a pool in the other.
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You can't well no surprise, I must admit it's a bit tricky explaining how back spatter causes blood to get into two silencers at the same time, a flake in one and a pool in the other.
What are you talking about.
You know full well that the rifle had one silencer attached when Bamber crept upstairs.
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What are you talking about.
You know full well that the rifle had one silencer attached when Bamber crept upstairs.
You know full well that Bamber wasn't even in the house that night.
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You know full well that Bamber wasn't even in the house that night.
How long do you believe Nevill spent calling Bamber's AM?
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It is very sick accusing the relatives of fabricating the silencer. Espescially as it was impossible to do.
But there will always be a handful.
Its impossible to unscrew a silencer, put blood inside it and scrape it against a shelf?
The strange world of Adam
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What is your theory on how it was fabricated?
What plausible explanation(s) exist if not as the prosecution claim?
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Yes, you have. I posted it on the IA forum back in December 2017 and you commented on it. Thus you have seen it.
Well that's nearly 5 years ago and it obviously didn't leave much of an impression if I can't recall it. Please repost it.
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Its impossible to unscrew a silencer, put blood inside it and scrape it against a shelf?
The strange world of Adam
Virtually nothing is impossible but you're being somewhat facetious when you say "put blood inside it" when you know full well the blood needs to match Sheila's groups and those doing the contaminating would need access to not only an awful lot of technical data but the blood too!
Supporters need to come up with something plausible. Ideas such as the relatives putting their own blood in or AE wringing out Sheila's menstrual stained knickers left soaking in a bucket do not even get off the starting blocks.
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You can't well no surprise, I must admit it's a bit tricky explaining how back spatter causes blood to get into two silencers at the same time, a flake in one and a pool in the other.
?
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How long do you believe Nevill spent calling Bamber's AM?
It seems that David is refusing to answer. I did ask last week as well.
A pity as both Rob & ILB have answered.
ILB saying Bamber would wake, realise the phone was ringing, decide to answer & get downstairs within 2 attempts/20 seconds.
Rob intially said 11 minutes but is now saying 30 seconds after being unable to say what Sheila would be doing for 11 minutes.
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We don't know for certain if it was Sheila's blood, all we can say is it was either the same blood group as Sheila or a mixture.
From who? June and Nevill didn't sustain close contact shots.
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Scenario very short.
No times mentioned. Such as when Sheila got up & when Nevill started engaging downstairs.
No build up to Nevill calling Bamber.
No explanation of why Nevill let Sheila load rifle.
If Sheila loaded rifle when Nevill was not in kitchen, does not say why Sheila did not open fire downstairs/Nevill did not reclaim while fully fit.
No explanation of why Nevill did not put rifle away when arriving downstairs.
No explanation of what woke Nevill.
Relying on Nevill not waking June for assistance.
Relying on June not waking simultaneously with Nevill.
Relying on June or the twins not waking while Sheila gets so bad Nevill decides to call Bamber's AM.
No explanation of why Nevill let Sheila go upstairs with a loaded rifle.
No benefit of Nevill phoning Bamber's AM.
No explanation on why Nevill did not call the police instead of Bamber.
No explanation of how many times Nevill phoned Bamber's AM.
Relying on Bamber picking up the phone instantly. If David believes Nevill would give up phoning quickly.
Relying on Nevill spending several minutes repeatedly ringing Bamber's AM. If David believes Bamber would not wake/ignore.
No explanation of what Sheila was doing while Nevill was phoning Bamber's AM.
No explanation of why Nevill would not instantly reclaim his rifle while fully fit.
No explanation of why Nevill allowed Sheila to load rifle.
No evidence on Sheila.
Nevill bare footed although he got out of bed to go downstairs.
Sheila bare footed although got out of bed to go downstairs.
Relying on Sheila firing rifle at June at the same time Bamber picks up phone.
Relying on Nevill hearing upstairs shots from quiet/silent rifle.
'Sheila pivots'. Not compatible with her being docile & uncordinated due to Haloperiodal.
Relying on twins not waking.
Does not say when twins were shot.
Relying on June 'going after Sheila'.
Relying on June 'collapsing with shock'.
Relying on Nevill allowing Sheila to point rifle inches from his face. And not reclaim rifle.
Relying on Nevill not able to calm Sheila down.
Relying on Nevill hearing upstairs shots, then not being prepared for Sheila.
Relying on Nevill hearing upstairs shots. Then instantly retreating.
No description of kitchen fight.
Does not say how Sheila lifted Nevill onto coal scuttle.
Relying on Bamber, June & Nevill not putting rifle away.
No explanation on Sheila's re loads & when she killed herself.
No explanation on what Sheila did after killing 4 people.
Relying on the relatives knowing -
Sheila's arm lenght.
Rifle lenght.
Rifle/silencer lenght.
About back spatter.
Who received contact shots.
Location of contact shots.
All other evidence.
There was not a silencer next to Sheila.
Where to get Sheila's blood.
Crime scene photos of aga.
There was no blood in rifle barrel.
Silencers in WHF were not checked.
How to put Sheila's blood into silencer.
Relatives knowing how to put diluted period blood into silencer.
David is also refusing to address any of the flaws in his fifth Sheila scenario attempt.
He also said last week he is not going to submit another scenario.
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There is no question David is a guilter -
He was a hardcore guilter.
He attempted a secret stance change.
The secret stance change was so he could goad 2 other posters who had been open about becoming guilters. As well as get a letter from Bamber to feel important. Due to his secret forensic evidence breakthrough hoax.
He eventually gave 2 reasons for his stance change. Which somehow negates 200 reasons. Both these reasons have been dismissed.
He cannot create a Sheila scenario.
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Virtually nothing is impossible but you're being somewhat facetious when you say "put blood inside it" when you know full well the blood needs to match Sheila's groups and those doing the contaminating would need access to not only an awful lot of technical data but the blood too!
Supporters need to come up with something plausible. Ideas such as the relatives putting their own blood in or AE wringing out Sheila's menstrual stained knickers left soaking in a bucket do not even get off the starting blocks.
The blood needs to be Sheila's. Due to 17 out of 20 markers.
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Well that's nearly 5 years ago and it obviously didn't leave much of an impression if I can't recall it.
Or, you were obviously not in a sound state of mind when I did post it. (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/emojipedia/132/face-with-uneven-eyes-and-wavy-mouth_1f974.png)
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Its impossible to unscrew a silencer, put blood inside it and scrape it against a shelf?
The strange world of Adam
Where would they get Sheila's blood from?
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Or, you were obviously not in a sound state of mind when I did post it. (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/emojipedia/132/face-with-uneven-eyes-and-wavy-mouth_1f974.png)
You are in no postion to talk about the states of minds of others when you dream up absurd theories about AE wringing out Sheila's menstrual stained knickers, found soaking in a bucket, into the silencer (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/emojipedia/132/face-with-uneven-eyes-and-wavy-mouth_1f974.png)
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The blood needs to be Sheila's. Due to 17 out of 20 markers.
17 out of 20 is inconclusive do you know why they did not test more markers?
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17 out of 20 is inconclusive do you know why they did not test more markers?
Inconclusive? What do you want, blood?!
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Everyone has to accept it is Sheila's blood in the silencer. Even David does.
Supporters just need to find a credible way it was so convincingly fabricated.
Don't forget you can bring the police into this fabrication. They must have fabricated all the other evidence so why not the silencer?
The relatives had no access to Sheila's blood.
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As with all the other evidence, guilters are fully covered with the silencer.
There was a kitchen fight & Sheila recieved a contact & 'within 3 inches' shot in an area of high blood flow. No one else did.
The onus is on supporters to create a credible fabrication.
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Inconclusive? What do you want, blood?!
It not me it's just fact, 17 out of 20 markers matching is inconclusive, they could have tested more?
I know you are desperate for evidence so blame the scientists not me!
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Everyone has to accept it is Sheila's blood in the silencer. Even David does.
Supporters just need to find a credible way it was so convincingly fabricated.
Don't forget you can bring the police into this fabrication. They must have fabricated all the other evidence so why not the silencer?
The relatives had no access to Sheila's blood.
Sorry the DNA evidence does not support this as you very well know.
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It not me it's just fact, 17 out of 20 markers matching is inconclusive, they could have tested more?
I know you are desperate for evidence so blame the scientists not me!
Seventeen of the twenty bands attributable to Sheila Caffell had been detected in DNA from the internal swabbings.
Random chance would have suggested thirteen common
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Sorry the DNA evidence does not support this as you very well know.
Seventeen of the twenty bands attributable to Sheila Caffell had been detected in DNA from the internal swabbings.
Random chance would have suggested thirteen common
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The blood needs to be Sheila's. Due to 17 out of 20 markers.
No. The experts and CoA concluded the 17/20 did not stand up and that Sheila's DNA may have been in the silencer but it was not possible to conclude either way (points 496 and 497 CoA 2002).
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The most compelling blood evidence relates to the 1986 trial with Sheila's blood groups matching that of the flake.
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Sorry the DNA evidence does not support this as you very well know.
You agreed it was sick to suggest DB put his blood inside the silencer. After somehow finding out they were in the same apparant 8% blood group.
Not sure what your position is.
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Thanks Cc for your detailed reply, do you have any idea why the PGM grouping was missing from the flake? I have come up against a wall looking into this?
The 2002 CoA doc point 453 states:
"He had done a PGM grouping test but it gave negative results".
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You agreed it was sick to suggest DB put his blood inside the silencer. After somehow finding out they were in the same apparant 8% blood group.
Not sure what your position is.
I don't like talking about the relatives by name if I can help it Adam, but assuming blood was planted in the silencer I don't think it was DB.
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I don't like talking about the relatives by name if I can help it Adam, but assuming blood was planted in the silencer I don't think it was DB.
Please supply your fabrication scenario.
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Please supply your fabrication scenario.
I don't believe a killer would put the silencer back in the cupboard complete with hair, paint and blood on it. When all he had to do was place it beside Sheila such that her blood would run over it, or just simply take it with him and chuck it in the sea.
There is no need to go into details, the silencer is easily unscrewed etc.
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Virtually nothing is impossible but you're being somewhat facetious when you say "put blood inside it" when you know full well the blood needs to match Sheila's groups and those doing the contaminating would need access to not only an awful lot of technical data but the blood too!
Supporters need to come up with something plausible. Ideas such as the relatives putting their own blood in or AE wringing out Sheila's menstrual stained knickers left soaking in a bucket do not even get off the starting blocks.
Or the police giving them the blood Cutie.Quite possible,quite plausable.Then everyone's happy.Well,except for JB that is!
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I don't believe a killer would put the silencer back in the cupboard complete with hair, paint and blood on it. When all he had to do was place it beside Sheila such that her blood would run over it, or just simply take it with him and chuck it in the sea.
There is no need to go into details, the silencer is easily unscrewed etc.
I rather think the CCRC and CoA will need to go into details about how the blood/silencer was fabricated
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I don't believe a killer would put the silencer back in the cupboard complete with hair, paint and blood on it. When all he had to do was place it beside Sheila such that her blood would run over it, or just simply take it with him and chuck it in the sea.
There is no need to go into details, the silencer is easily unscrewed etc.
Well the evidence is he did.
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I don't believe a killer would put the silencer back in the cupboard complete with hair, paint and blood on it. When all he had to do was place it beside Sheila such that her blood would run over it, or just simply take it with him and chuck it in the sea.
There is no need to go into details, the silencer is easily unscrewed etc.
How would he manage that?
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I don't believe a killer would put the silencer back in the cupboard complete with hair, paint and blood on it. When all he had to do was place it beside Sheila such that her blood would run over it, or just simply take it with him and chuck it in the sea.
There is no need to go into details, the silencer is easily unscrewed etc.
There is if you believe one piece of evidence was fabricated.
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I don't believe a killer would put the silencer back in the cupboard complete with hair, paint and blood on it. When all he had to do was place it beside Sheila such that her blood would run over it, or just simply take it with him and chuck it in the sea.
There is no need to go into details, the silencer is easily unscrewed etc.
Please provide your fabrication scenario.
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Or the police giving them the blood Cutie.Quite possible,quite plausable.Then everyone's happy.Well,except for JB that is!
The police giving who the blood? Relatives?
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I rather think the CCRC and CoA will need to go into details about how the blood/silencer was fabricated
Yes I hope they would, it should be easy to prove if the blood was in the silencer due to back spatter or some other means. Depending on what records are available of where the blood was actually found in the silencer.
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How would he manage that?
Well if he can't find a suitable spot he chucks it in the sea while cycling back to his cottage.
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Well if he can't find a suitable spot he chucks it in the sea while cycling back to his cottage.
I agree he would not be able to.
Well the evidence is he put the silencer in it's usual place. Away from the crime scene.
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Please provide your fabrication scenario.
I need to know exactly where in the silencer the blood was found, I think we will find back spatter does not explain the distribution of blood in the silencer?
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I agree he would not be able to.
Well the evidence is he put the silencer in it's usual place. Away from the crime scene.
If guilty I bet JB at trial was scratching his head thinking how did that dam silencer get out of the sea and back into the cupboard! ;)
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You are in no postion to talk about the states of minds of others when you dream up absurd theories about AE wringing out Sheila's menstrual stained knickers, found soaking in a bucket, into the silencer (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/emojipedia/132/face-with-uneven-eyes-and-wavy-mouth_1f974.png)
Absurd theories? like June walking around with two bullets in her brains? (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/emojipedia/132/face-with-uneven-eyes-and-wavy-mouth_1f974.png)
PS: Please share your theory on how it was fabricated. You admitted last January you are the person below.
(https://i.ibb.co/D4wMJRf/HGslr.jpg)
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Absurd theories? like June walking around with two bullets in her brains? (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/emojipedia/132/face-with-uneven-eyes-and-wavy-mouth_1f974.png)
PS: Please share your theory on how it was fabricated. You admitted last January you are the person below.
(https://i.ibb.co/D4wMJRf/HGslr.jpg)
The difference between you and I is that I'm happy for others to show me the errors in my thinking and I will ditch. I put forward the theory about June in a few posts over a few weeks and quickly abandoned. You have been banging on about the menstrual stained knickers for years and even when faced with the scientific evidence to the contrary you refuse to give it up because you have no other viable explanation for the blood evidence if not as the prosecution claim. (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/emojipedia/132/face-with-uneven-eyes-and-wavy-mouth_1f974.png)
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Yes I hope they would, it should be easy to prove if the blood was in the silencer due to back spatter or some other means. Depending on what records are available of where the blood was actually found in the silencer.
In another case (where a silencer actually was used) They found skin tissue with powder residue on it inside the silencer. Another thing that is absent in this case.
(https://i.ibb.co/n6gW019/sil555.png)
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In another case (where a silencer actually was used) They found skin tissue with powder residue on it inside the silencer. Another thing that is absent in this case.
(https://i.ibb.co/n6gW019/sil555.png)
That's all fine and dandy but you're yet to produce a viable theory as to how the blood/silencer was fabricated, if that's what you still believe?
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I need to know exactly where in the silencer the blood was found, I think we will find back spatter does not explain the distribution of blood in the silencer?
Even if the distribution doesn't correspond with how you think it should it still doesn't explain how a blood flake matching Sheila's groupings found its way inside the silencer.
You and David1819 need to get your skates on and come up with a "slam dunk".
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Here are documents showing the police obtained blood samples from the extended family and the subsequent results.
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Hopefully Cambridge is sober this time and will remember. 👍
Hardly surprising it wasn't memorable. It doesn't tell anyone anthing!
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Hardly surprising it wasn't memorable. It doesn't tell anyone anthing!
Oh I've just seen you have to scroll down some way on the second page. I doubt I saw this first time around. Anyway as far as I can see it is still unremarkable?
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In another case (where a silencer actually was used) They found skin tissue with powder residue on it inside the silencer. Another thing that is absent in this case.
(https://i.ibb.co/n6gW019/sil555.png)
Thanks David very interesting.
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Oh I've just seen you have to scroll down some way on the second page. I doubt I saw this first time around. Anyway as far as I can see it is still unremarkable?
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If guilty I bet JB at trial was scratching his head thinking how did that dam silencer get out of the sea and back into the cupboard! ;)
He would be if he threw it there.
As said he may have cycled back along Malden Road. Which was nowhere near the sea.
Please give your silencer fabrication theory.
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Rob's approach 37 years later on the silencer is 'I would/wouldn't have done what Bamber did. Therefore he must be innocent'.
Obviously the investigators just follow the evidence.
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In another case (where a silencer actually was used) They found skin tissue with powder residue on it inside the silencer. Another thing that is absent in this case.
(https://i.ibb.co/n6gW019/sil555.png)
What case?
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The police giving who the blood? Relatives?
Well,it may be as simple as this Cutes.Once the cops decided that JB was going down,they decided they would beef up the evidence against him.They had nothing at all linking him to the crime scene,so they went over the general scenario of what happened and some bright spark came up with the silencer plan.
They had Sheilas blood,they had the silencer and they had witnesses more than willing to say they found it in a rather obscure place that the police had simply overlooked.Someone also remembered that some sort of struggle took place in the kitchen and the scratch marks idea sprang to mind.Perfect,that would nail Bamber good and proper.
It didn't directly place Bamber at the scene,but it proved someone put the silencer back after Sheila was dead,so,same thing.If Sheila wasn't the killer JB was.
So,for all we know ,the police may have simply given the relatives a script,the silencer may never have been in their possetion at all.It would certainly explain all the different statements of who was present when it was found and the different descriptions,ie the blob of jam,the hair,paint,no paint.Who phoned the cops,who handed it in etc,etc.
Then when Julie came forward,prompted by her friends,for whatever reason,this was perfect for the police.They told Julie that they had proof of JBs guilt,so she was more than happy to help them by doing her duty to help convict an evil monster,especially after certain guarentees to herself and Susan.
We know a different cop was appointed to carry out the JB murder investigation,but why?Everyone had been interviwed for the murder suicide,all the evidence had been gathered,yet all that was shelved.Was it because Ainsley was willing to bend the rules,and also obtain new witness statements painting a very black picture against Bamber.
So what we have actually ended up with really,is similar to starting watching a film half way through and trying to work out what happened at the beginning.Until the original investigation file is disclosed to shed some further light,there will forever be doubt of Jeremy Bambers guilt.
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Well,it may be as simple as this Cutes.Once the cops decided that JB was going down,they decided they would beef up the evidence against him.They had nothing at all linking him to the crime scene,so they went over the general scenario of what happened and some bright spark came up with the silencer plan.
They had Sheilas blood,they had the silencer and they had witnesses more than willing to say they found it in a rather obscure place that the police had simply overlooked.Someone also remembered that some sort of struggle took place in the kitchen and the scratch marks idea sprang to mind.Perfect,that would nail Bamber good and proper.
It didn't directly place Bamber at the scene,but it proved someone put the silencer back after Sheila was dead,so,same thing.If Sheila wasn't the killer JB was.
So,for all we know ,the police may have simply given the relatives a script,the silencer may never have been in their possetion at all.It would certainly explain all the different statements of who was present when it was found and the different descriptions,ie the blob of jam,the hair,paint,no paint.Who phoned the cops,who handed it in etc,etc.
Then when Julie came forward,prompted by her friends,for whatever reason,this was perfect for the police.They told Julie that they had proof of JBs guilt,so she was more than happy to help them by doing her duty to help convict an evil monster,especially after certain guarentees to herself and Susan.
We know a different cop was appointed to carry out the JB murder investigation,but why?Everyone had been interviwed for the murder suicide,all the evidence had been gathered,yet all that was shelved.Was it because Ainsley was willing to bend the rules,and also obtain new witness statements painting a very black picture against Bamber.
So what we have actually ended up with really,is similar to starting watching a film half way through and trying to work out what happened at the beginning.Until the original investigation file is disclosed to shed some further light,there will forever be doubt of Jeremy Bambers guilt.
So it is Sheila's blood in the silencer. That's you, Lookout & David in agreement.
Wouldn't it be easier for the police to just say they did another search of WHF & found it?
Relying on the relatives finding it is very optimistic.
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Both guilters & supporters agree it is Sheila's blood in the silencer.
Rob is still refusing to accept it. Although does not believe it is DB's & has no silencer fabrication scenario.
Guilters have a watertight explanation - Bamber shot Sheila.
Supporters have failed to provide a credible scenario.
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If supporters do ever come up with a credible scenario of how Sheila's blood got into the silencer, it will still not negate the guilters explanation.
The guilters/prosecution explanation is watertight. It is also backed up with all the other evidence against Bamber.
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Well,it may be as simple as this Cutes.Once the cops decided that JB was going down,they decided they would beef up the evidence against him.They had nothing at all linking him to the crime scene,so they went over the general scenario of what happened and some bright spark came up with the silencer plan.
They had Sheilas blood,they had the silencer and they had witnesses more than willing to say they found it in a rather obscure place that the police had simply overlooked.Someone also remembered that some sort of struggle took place in the kitchen and the scratch marks idea sprang to mind.Perfect,that would nail Bamber good and proper.
It didn't directly place Bamber at the scene,but it proved someone put the silencer back after Sheila was dead,so,same thing.If Sheila wasn't the killer JB was.
So,for all we know ,the police may have simply given the relatives a script,the silencer may never have been in their possetion at all.It would certainly explain all the different statements of who was present when it was found and the different descriptions,ie the blob of jam,the hair,paint,no paint.Who phoned the cops,who handed it in etc,etc.
Then when Julie came forward,prompted by her friends,for whatever reason,this was perfect for the police.They told Julie that they had proof of JBs guilt,so she was more than happy to help them by doing her duty to help convict an evil monster,especially after certain guarentees to herself and Susan.
We know a different cop was appointed to carry out the JB murder investigation,but why?Everyone had been interviwed for the murder suicide,all the evidence had been gathered,yet all that was shelved.Was it because Ainsley was willing to bend the rules,and also obtain new witness statements painting a very black picture against Bamber.
So what we have actually ended up with really,is similar to starting watching a film half way through and trying to work out what happened at the beginning.Until the original investigation file is disclosed to shed some further light,there will forever be doubt of Jeremy Bambers guilt.
This is crazy, and never happened.
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So it is Sheila's blood in the silencer. That's you, Lookout & David in agreement.
Wouldn't it be easier for the police to just say they did another search of WHF & found it?
Relying on the relatives finding it is very optimistic.
No,that would not work Adam,the police had vacated the scene and no silencer had been documented as an exhibit.No way could they say they searched again after Bamber was a suspect and found it.But they could just about get away with saying the relatives came across it in an out of the way nook.And that is why they had to say it was found and removed on 10 Aug,BEFORE JB had entered the farm house.
Because realistically after JB had been in the house the police or relatives could not know if he had looked in the gun cupboard or not.That is why the silencer had to be documented as found and removed before JB had returned to the house after the murders.
If you think about it,it all makes perfect sense.And remember,after the funerals,JBs teachers,every police officer and his wife and of course all the relatives were 100 percent sure of Bambers guilt.Rightly or WRONGLY, 100 percent sure.
So ask yourself a question in all honesty.Do you really believe if everyone were 100 percent sure of Bambers guilt,that the cops would have any,ANY problem stitching up someone who they were sure was a dangerous twisted homicidal nutter.
Do you? DO YOU REALLY!! Time to waken up.
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No,that would not work Adam,the police had vacated the scene and no silencer had been documented as an exhibit.No way could they say they searched again after Bamber was a suspect and found it.But they could just about get away with saying the relatives came across it in an out of the way nook.And that is why they had to say it was found and removed on 10 Aug,BEFORE JB had entered the farm house.
Because realistically after JB had been in the house the police or relatives could not know if he had looked in the gun cupboard or not.That is why the silencer had to be documented as found and removed before JB had returned to the house after the murders.
If you think about it,it all makes perfect sense.And remember,after the funerals,JBs teachers,every police officer and his wife and of course all the relatives were 100 percent sure of Bambers guilt.Rightly or WRONGLY, 100 percent sure.
So ask yourself a question in all honesty.Do you really believe if everyone were 100 percent sure of Bambers guilt,that the cops would have any,ANY problem stitching up someone who they were sure was a dangerous twisted homicidal nutter.
Do you? DO YOU REALLY!! Time to waken up.
I thought an inventory of the gun cupboard was done.
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No,that would not work Adam,the police had vacated the scene and no silencer had been documented as an exhibit.No way could they say they searched again after Bamber was a suspect and found it.But they could just about get away with saying the relatives came across it in an out of the way nook.And that is why they had to say it was found and removed on 10 Aug,BEFORE JB had entered the farm house.
Because realistically after JB had been in the house the police or relatives could not know if he had looked in the gun cupboard or not.That is why the silencer had to be documented as found and removed before JB had returned to the house after the murders.
If you think about it,it all makes perfect sense.And remember,after the funerals,JBs teachers,every police officer and his wife and of course all the relatives were 100 percent sure of Bambers guilt.Rightly or WRONGLY, 100 percent sure.
So ask yourself a question in all honesty.Do you really believe if everyone were 100 percent sure of Bambers guilt,that the cops would have any,ANY problem stitching up someone who they were sure was a dangerous twisted homicidal nutter.
Do you? DO YOU REALLY!! Time to waken up.
Why not? Once the evidence Sheila did not commit the massacre emerged they could do further searches.
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This is crazy, and never happened.
Crazy,but possible Dave!
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No,that would not work Adam,the police had vacated the scene and no silencer had been documented as an exhibit.No way could they say they searched again after Bamber was a suspect and found it.But they could just about get away with saying the relatives came across it in an out of the way nook.And that is why they had to say it was found and removed on 10 Aug,BEFORE JB had entered the farm house.
Because realistically after JB had been in the house the police or relatives could not know if he had looked in the gun cupboard or not.That is why the silencer had to be documented as found and removed before JB had returned to the house after the murders.
If you think about it,it all makes perfect sense.And remember,after the funerals,JBs teachers,every police officer and his wife and of course all the relatives were 100 percent sure of Bambers guilt.Rightly or WRONGLY, 100 percent sure.
So ask yourself a question in all honesty.Do you really believe if everyone were 100 percent sure of Bambers guilt,that the cops would have any,ANY problem stitching up someone who they were sure was a dangerous twisted homicidal nutter.
Do you? DO YOU REALLY!! Time to waken up.
Very optimistic relying on the relatives finding it.
No guarantee they would even do a search. SJ gave AE the keys to do a tidy up as Bamber was on holiday.
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No,that would not work Adam,the police had vacated the scene and no silencer had been documented as an exhibit.No way could they say they searched again after Bamber was a suspect and found it.But they could just about get away with saying the relatives came across it in an out of the way nook.And that is why they had to say it was found and removed on 10 Aug,BEFORE JB had entered the farm house.
Because realistically after JB had been in the house the police or relatives could not know if he had looked in the gun cupboard or not.That is why the silencer had to be documented as found and removed before JB had returned to the house after the murders.
If you think about it,it all makes perfect sense.And remember,after the funerals,JBs teachers,every police officer and his wife and of course all the relatives were 100 percent sure of Bambers guilt.Rightly or WRONGLY, 100 percent sure.
So ask yourself a question in all honesty.Do you really believe if everyone were 100 percent sure of Bambers guilt,that the cops would have any,ANY problem stitching up someone who they were sure was a dangerous twisted homicidal nutter.
Do you? DO YOU REALLY!! Time to waken up.
Do you believe all the other forensic evidence against Bamber is fabricated by the police?
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Very optimistic relying on the relatives finding it.
No guarantee they would even do a search. SJ gave AE the keys to do a tidy up as Bamber was on holiday.
You are not listening again Adam,I pointed out that all they had to do was agree to write a statement to that effect!
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Snow66! is relying on multiple invented things happening again. As in her Sheila scenario.
Bamber shooting Sheila is still the only watertight scenario. It also happened.
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I thought an inventory of the gun cupboard was done.
Yes,it probably was Adam,that is what makes it improbable the silencer was ever near it.Now you are getting it.
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This is crazy, and never happened.
Snow66! does post a lot of crazy theories.
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You are not listening again Adam,I pointed out that all they had to do was agree to write a statement to that effect!
You mean the police told the relatives to search the gun cupboard. Then lie in their WS's & say they were just asked to do a tidy up?
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Why not? Once the evidence Sheila did not commit the massacre emerged they could do further searches.
But Bamber had been in the house by that time Adam,think it through.
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But Bamber had been in the house by that time Adam,think it through.
So what? Bamber was not aware of back spatter or the aga scratches. So the silencer would still be there.
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Do you believe all the other forensic evidence against Bamber is fabricated by the police?
I am simply pointing out what is possible Adam,can you say that isn't what happened?
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Crazy,but possible Dave!
Crazy and unsubstantiated theories are not going to help Jeremys.
The relatives (or a relative) acted alone in contaminating the silencer.
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I am simply pointing out what is possible Adam,can you say that isn't what happened?
You are inventing multiple things & relying on them happening.
What is your view of Sheila's blood entering the silencer from Bamber shooting her?
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Do you believe all the other forensic evidence against Bamber is fabricated by the police?
"All the other forensic evidence against Bamber" is bullshit made up by yourself on an internet forum 30 years later.
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"All the other forensic evidence against Bamber" is bullshit made up by yourself on an internet forum 30 years later.
Sorry David, everyone will go by the COA rather than your secret 2016 'forensic evidence breakthrough' hoax.
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Do you believe all the other forensic evidence against Bamber is fabricated by the police?
What other forensic evidence? take the dodgy silencer away there is none.
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Appreciate supporters are in their comfort zone, focusing on one piece of evidence.
However there are at least 200 pieces. As stated by Killingeve & my thread.
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Appreciate supporters are in their comfort zone, focusing on one piece of evidence.
However there are at least 200 pieces. As stated by Killingeve & my thread.
Your 200 pieces of bullshit is not evidence.
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What other forensic evidence? take the dodgy silencer away there is none.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11331.msg524151.html#msg524151
Do you & David have problems remembering things. Or is it a mental block?
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https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11067.msg513953.html#msg513953
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You mean the police told the relatives to search the gun cupboard. Then lie in their WS's & say they were just asked to do a tidy up?
Work it out Adam,the cops AND the relatives wanted Bamber sent down.All that needed to happen was the silencer rigged and the relatives told what to say,quite simple.NO actual search neccessary.
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Appreciate supporters are in their comfort zone, focusing on one piece of evidence.
However there are at least 200 pieces. As stated by Killingeve & my thread.
I think it's you focusing on one piece of evidence because it's the only evidence you have, and worse it was not found despite five police officers searching the cupboard it was found in.
If this was depicted in a James Bond film or any film apart from a Benny Hill show the audience would walk out laughing!
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https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11067.msg513953.html#msg513953
Well done Adam down from 200 to 76 pieces of BS, see if we can get it down to 1 the dodgy silencer.
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Crazy and unsubstantiated theories are not going to help Jeremys.
The relatives (or a relative) acted alone in contaminating the silencer.
I am just pointing out a theory that is within the realms of possibility Dave.
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Well done Adam down from 200 to 76 pieces of BS, see if we can get it down to 1 the dodgy silencer.
The 76 is just the COA evidence.
Please see previous link.
Keep up.
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I am just pointing out a theory that is within the realms of possibility Dave.
It is an impossible theory.
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It is an impossible theory.
How so?
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The 76 is just the COA evidence.
Please see previous link.
Keep up.
Perhaps you should include the judge telling the jury it was Sheila's blood in the silencer? Does that mean we are back to 201 pieces of BS?
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It is an impossible theory.
I would have thought a senior officer taking home and destroying case documents was impossible, but just standard procedure in this case.
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Progress has been made with the silencer -
Everyone agrees it's Sheila's blood. Rob's view has been dismissed as he has not provided a silencer scenario.
Everyone agrees the guilter explanation is watertight - Bamber shot Sheila.
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There just needs to be a credible alternative scenario how Sheila's blood got into the silencer. Lookout's & Davids were dismissed years ago. Snow66!'s is just as bad.
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Progress has been made with the silencer -
Everyone agrees it's Sheila's blood. Rob's view has been dismissed as he has not provided a silencer scenario.
Everyone agrees the guilter explanation is watertight - Bamber shot Sheila.
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There just needs to be a credible alternative scenario how Sheila's blood got into the silencer. Lookout's & Davids were dismissed years ago. Snow66!'s is just as bad.
A scenario is not needed as David has shown that back spatter does not explain the flake of blood in the silencer.
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Goodnight my friends.
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A scenario is not needed as David has shown that back spatter does not explain the flake of blood in the silencer.
You have refused to agree the blood is Sheila's. Although agree with the watertight guilters explanation - Bamber shot Sheila.
You have also said it is not DB's blood.
You just need to give a scenario how blood matching 17 out of 20 markers to Sheila's (but not hers) got into the silencer.
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Perhaps you should include the judge telling the jury it was Sheila's blood in the silencer? Does that mean we are back to 201 pieces of BS?
If 17 out of 20 markers means it wasn't Sheila's & it also wasn't DB's, then who the heck's blood was it?
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If 17 out of 20 markers means it wasn't Sheila's & it also wasn't DB's, then who the heck's blood was it?
Well the PGM enzyme was negative, and the AK enzyme is also found in animals, and 17 out of 20 markers means it could be half the world plus little green men on Mars.
I think it's best all round to simply say it was not Sheila's blood in the silencer and whoever put the blood in it got lucky with the blood group matching Sheila's.
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Progress has been made with the silencer -
Everyone agrees it's Sheila's blood. Rob's view has been dismissed as he has not provided a silencer scenario.
Everyone agrees the guilter explanation is watertight - Bamber shot Sheila.
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Which is why even guilters believe the silencer was fabricated ie Caroline and Paul Harrison. I believe Steve_UK is also sceptical of it.
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Which is why even guilters believe the silencer was fabricated ie Caroline and Paul Harrison. I believe Steve_UK is also sceptical of it.
83% of the forum think the silencer was fabricated only 17% think its genuine.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7747.0.html#msg365525 (https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7747.0.html#msg365525)
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83% of the forum think the silencer was fabricated only 17% think its genuine.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7747.0.html#msg365525 (https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7747.0.html#msg365525)
And how does this prove anything other than what a few misguided individuals believe on an obscure online forum?
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Well the PGM enzyme was negative, and the AK enzyme is also found in animals, and 17 out of 20 markers means it could be half the world plus little green men on Mars.
I think it's best all round to simply say it was not Sheila's blood in the silencer and whoever put the blood in it got lucky with the blood group matching Sheila's.
What is unusual about the PGM eynzyme test coming up negative?
The exhibits were first tested for the presence of blood and whether it was human in origin so the idea the AK enzyme originated from some non-human species is out of the question since it was confirmed as human in origin.
I have already explained the CoA confirmed the 17/20 markers are meaningless and concluded it was not possible to say either way whether or not Sheila's DNA was in the silencer. The court further concluded Sheila's blood was in the silencer (flake/blood groupings) but that it was all swabbed away in the course of testing hence the later LCN DNA tests came up inconclusive.
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And how does this prove anything other than what a few misguided individuals believe on an obscure online forum?
Sometime around March 2017. You told me over the phone you think the Lab fabricated the silencer after they heard Julie had said Jeremy done it. ;D
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Sometime around March 2017 You told me over the phone you think the Lab fabricated the silencer after they heard Julie said Jeremy done it. ;D
You mean an "industrial frame"? ;D
How could the lab have fabricated the silencer when the blood, paint and hair were seen by others before the silencer even arrived at the lab?
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You mean an "industrial frame"? ;D
How could the lab have fabricated the silencer when the blood, paint and hair were seen by others before the silencer even arrived at the lab?
You tell me, that's what you said. You should remember I did not agree with you.
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You tell me, that's what you said. You should remember I did not agree with you.
Are you sure I wasn't teasing and/or you misunderstood? It makes no sense given the silencer was first examined by the lab on 13th Aug and Julie did not fess up until much later?
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Are you sure I wasn't teasing and/or you misunderstood?
No, you were being serious.
Had you already made your evening trip to the Co-op that day? (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/emojipedia/132/face-with-uneven-eyes-and-wavy-mouth_1f974.png)
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No, you were being serious.
Had you already made your evening trip to the Co-op that day? (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/emojipedia/132/face-with-uneven-eyes-and-wavy-mouth_1f974.png)
If you think my mind was/is muddled for whatever reason(s) why bother with what I think?
(https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/emojipedia/132/face-with-uneven-eyes-and-wavy-mouth_1f974.png)
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David as you're very familiar with all things relative are you able to upload AE's cards/notes where she first refers to the finding of the silencer. Thanks.
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David as you're very familiar with all things relative are you able to upload AE's cards/notes where she first refers to the finding of the silencer. Thanks.
Some of her notes/cards are in the archive Cutie,Mike pointed out that there is no mention of finding a silencer on 10th Aug in them.
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David as you're very familiar with all things relative are you able to upload AE's cards/notes where she first refers to the finding of the silencer. Thanks.
I posted it on December 15th last year. You participated in the discussion that day.
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Some of her notes/cards are in the archive Cutie,Mike pointed out that there is no mention of finding a silencer on 10th Aug in them.
Yes, thanks, but would like to see with own eyes.
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I posted it on December 15th last year. You participated in the discussion that day.
Yes and that's why I am asking you to repost.
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Yes, thanks, but would like to see with own eyes.
Well why dont you just take a look? They are in the statements section under Ann Eaton.
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Well the PGM enzyme was negative, and the AK enzyme is also found in animals, and 17 out of 20 markers means it could be half the world plus little green men on Mars.
I think it's best all round to simply say it was not Sheila's blood in the silencer and whoever put the blood in it got lucky with the blood group matching Sheila's.
Unfortunately the other COA forensic evidence confirms Bamber is guilty.
Meaning the blood in the silencer is Sheila's. Via back spatter after Bamber shot her twice.
Even David says Sheila was shot in an area of high blood flow & it is Sheila's blood.
Nice try.
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Well why dont you just take a look? They are in the statements section under Ann Eaton.
Because I can't be bothered to decipher spider scrawl when David can lay his hands on it in seconds and could if he wanted repost it.
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Because I can't be bothered to decipher spider scrawl when David can lay his hands on it in seconds and could if he wanted repost it.
What do you mean Cutie,has Dave got a printed legible version?
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What do you mean Cutie,has Dave got a printed legible version?
Sorry I thought it was obvious. The cards are set out over pages. David is able to quickly identify the relevant card since he uploaded it some months ago.
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Sorry I thought it was obvious. The cards are set out over pages. David is able to quickly identify the relevant card since he uploaded it some months ago.
Ah! Got you Cutes.
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Yes and that's why I am asking you to repost.
You should have remembered the contents or kept it on record. If you were (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/emojipedia/132/face-with-uneven-eyes-and-wavy-mouth_1f974.png) when I posted it back then, why should I waste my time posting it yet again?
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What is unusual about the PGM eynzyme test coming up negative?
The exhibits were first tested for the presence of blood and whether it was human in origin so the idea the AK enzyme originated from some non-human species is out of the question since it was confirmed as human in origin.
I have already explained the CoA confirmed the 17/20 markers are meaningless and concluded it was not possible to say either way whether or not Sheila's DNA was in the silencer. The court further concluded Sheila's blood was in the silencer (flake/blood groupings) but that it was all swabbed away in the course of testing hence the later LCN DNA tests came up inconclusive.
Why was not more blood tested? I am curious that's all, it's as if the flake of blood was all that was in the silencer?
I know that 17/20 markers are meaningless I just hope that Adam does not include this as 17 more pieces of evidence. As he touts is as proof it was Sheila's blood.
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Ah! Got you Cutes.
Yes it gets a little wearing at times. I have spent many hours spoon feeding info to others so I don't think its much to ask, is it?
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You should have remembered the contents or kept it on record. If you were (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/emojipedia/132/face-with-uneven-eyes-and-wavy-mouth_1f974.png) when I posted it back then, why should I waste my time posting it yet again?
Unlike you I am able to discern the relevant from the irrelevant.
In any event you are being purposely facetious and unhelpful. A complete contrast when you're more than happy to retrieve members' posts for the sole purpose of goading (https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/emojipedia/132/face-with-uneven-eyes-and-wavy-mouth_1f974.png)
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Why was not more blood tested? I am curious that's all, it's as if the flake of blood was all that was in the silencer?
I know that 17/20 markers are meaningless I just hope that Adam does not include this as 17 more pieces of evidence. As he touts is as proof it was Sheila's blood.
The flake was cut into 5 and the 5 tests carried out on each portion eg 1 cut part for ABO, another cut part for AK and so on. Blood was also tested on some of the upper parts of baffles slightly further up the silencer. This gave results for A and EAP BA.
The blood flake was all used up for the five tests.
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The flake was cut into 5 and the 5 tests carried out on each portion eg 1 cut part for ABO, another cut part for AK and so on. Blood was also tested on some of the upper parts of baffles slightly further up the silencer. This gave results for A and EAP BA.
The blood flake was all used up for the five tests.
Some reports I have read implied there was a lot of blood in the silencer Cc so it was just the flake? I knew it was cut into five portions but thanks.
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Yes it gets a little wearing at times. I have spent many hours spoon feeding info to others so I don't think its much to ask, is it?
Of course not Cutie,I can assure you if I could help you,or anyone else with anything,I most certainly would.
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Yes it gets a little wearing at times. I have spent many hours spoon feeding info to others so I don't think its much to ask, is it?
Did you find it? If not,go to statements,click on to Ann Eaton note cards,scroll well down till you come to Wed 14th Aug 1985,then its on the next page down starting *Flowers Ann---
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It will be a start if David clarifies how long he believes Nevill called Bamber's AM for.
ILB says around 20 seconds. Rob intially said 11 minutes but could not say what Sheila was doing during this time. So rounded it down - to 30 seconds!
Either way David is either relying on Bamber picking up straight away. Or Nevill spending several minutes repeatedly phoning. Tough choice.
It looks like David is not going to answer this. I have asked more than once. Very strange and disappointing.
He claims Nevill phoned Bamber's AM, then refuses to say how long he believes Nevill spent doing this.
Both ILB & Rob have answered. ILB saying around 20 seconds. Rob changed from 11 minutes to 30 seconds!
If David thinks it would take longer, just say. I would agree with him.
I would wish Nevill luck in getting me to answer within 10 minutes.
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Some reports I have read implied there was a lot of blood in the silencer Cc so it was just the flake? I knew it was cut into five portions but thanks.
Yes I have seen reference to 'a lot of blood'. It would be helpful if we had photographic evidence or even a reliable and detailed diagram akin to what was produced for the rifle but all I've seen is some sort of rough sketch that looks like it was drawn by a pre-schooler.
No it wasn't just the flake, as I said in the post above, blood was also extracted from the upper part of a couple of baffle plates further up the silencer (the flake was found lodged under baffle plates 1 and 2). I will find the source and post up later.
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Did you find it? If not,go to statements,click on to Ann Eaton note cards,scroll well down till you come to Wed 14th Aug 1985,then its on the next page down starting *Flowers Ann---
Thanks snowie, found now. 👍
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https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11429.msg529603.html#msg529603
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https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11429.msg529603.html#msg529603
Thanks Roch. Yes that's the diagram I was referring to that looks like it was drawn up by a pre-schooler! This is a far cry from the diagram produced detailing the blood stains on the rifle.
Where I referred to data on a second page I was referring to the relatives' blood groupings.
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Afaik there's no detailed diagram of the blood found within the silencer unlike the blood on the outside of the silencer and rifle!? :-\
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Somewhat of a contrast!? :-\
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Somewhat of a contrast!? :-\
Given what is on it, I doubt it would have ever been turned in to a diagram. The sketch probably survived by chance, because its significance was overlooked, within the mountains of paperwork held on the case.
Alternatively, there may have been a diagram made as a result of the sketch. That diagram went the journey. But the sketch survived.
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Some reports I have read implied there was a lot of blood in the silencer Cc so it was just the flake? I knew it was cut into five portions but thanks.
Here's a ref to a "considerable amount of blood" from the 2002 appeal.
453. We have set out at paragraphs 75 to 80 a summary of the evidence at trial relating to the scientific examination of the moderator. The critical part of that evidence was the analysis of the flake of dried blood found inside the sound moderator. The evidence was given by Mr Hayward, a biologist who was working at the Forensic Science Laboratory at the time of the examination although he was in private practice by the date of trial. In his evidence he described how he had found "a considerable amount of blood" inside the moderator deposited in the spaces to the sides of the baffles around the edge of the silencer. He was asked if he had tested "any" of that blood. He said that he had and that it was human blood. He said that he had obtained grouping reactions for group A, EAP BA, AK I, Hp 2-1. He had done a PGM grouping test but it gave negative results. He said that these grouping results were consistent with the blood coming from Sheila Caffell but not solely from any of the others who had been shot.
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Given what is on it, I doubt it would have ever been turned in to a diagram. The sketch probably survived by chance, because its significance was overlooked, within the mountains of paperwork held on the case.
Alternatively, there may have been a diagram made as a result of the sketch. That diagram went the journey. But the sketch survived.
I don't know Roch but I do know that the blood stains on the rifle are clearly depicted with precise measurements for the size of the various stains.
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Here's a ref to a "considerable amount of blood" from the 2002 appeal.
453. We have set out at paragraphs 75 to 80 a summary of the evidence at trial relating to the scientific examination of the moderator. The critical part of that evidence was the analysis of the flake of dried blood found inside the sound moderator. The evidence was given by Mr Hayward, a biologist who was working at the Forensic Science Laboratory at the time of the examination although he was in private practice by the date of trial. In his evidence he described how he had found "a considerable amount of blood" inside the moderator deposited in the spaces to the sides of the baffles around the edge of the silencer. He was asked if he had tested "any" of that blood. He said that he had and that it was human blood. He said that he had obtained grouping reactions for group A, EAP BA, AK I, Hp 2-1. He had done a PGM grouping test but it gave negative results. He said that these grouping results were consistent with the blood coming from Sheila Caffell but not solely from any of the others who had been shot.
Yes I have read this Cc but as far as I can see only one set of grouping tests were carried out there should have been two tests otherwise the test is regarded as invalid?
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Yes I have read this Cc but as far as I can see only one set of grouping tests were carried out there should have been two tests otherwise the test is regarded as invalid?
Surely testing was carried out commensurate with a murder/suicide crime, which is what it was claimed to have been at the time the tests were done. I'm not certain what the difference would be between back splatter caused by the suicide's hand, and back splatter caused by the murder's hand. Is it believed that different testing is required for each?
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Here's a ref to a "considerable amount of blood" from the 2002 appeal.
453. We have set out at paragraphs 75 to 80 a summary of the evidence at trial relating to the scientific examination of the moderator. The critical part of that evidence was the analysis of the flake of dried blood found inside the sound moderator. The evidence was given by Mr Hayward, a biologist who was working at the Forensic Science Laboratory at the time of the examination although he was in private practice by the date of trial. In his evidence he described how he had found "a considerable amount of blood" inside the moderator deposited in the spaces to the sides of the baffles around the edge of the silencer. He was asked if he had tested "any" of that blood. He said that he had and that it was human blood. He said that he had obtained grouping reactions for group A, EAP BA, AK I, Hp 2-1. He had done a PGM grouping test but it gave negative results. He said that these grouping results were consistent with the blood coming from Sheila Caffell but not solely from any of the others who had been shot.[/i]
Obviously the back spatter theory is the only credible & watertight one.
The evidence being Sheila received 2 shots in an area of high blood flow. One a contact, one a 'within 3 inches' shot.
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Lookout's theory that Sheila took the silencer off mid massacre & her blood dripped in was impossible. Sheila was not bleeding mid massacre.
The relatives putting the wrong type of diluted blood into the silencer is impossible.
Although obtaining a mountain of other evidence, Snow66! suggests the police fabricated the silencer & told the relatives to check the gun cupboard.
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Rob says the experts are wrong and it is not Sheila's blood.
He agrees with everyone else & does not believe it is DB's blood.
He has not said whose blood it was which matched 17 out of 20 markings to Sheila & how it was inserted.
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Rob obviously agrees with everyone else that the guilters explanation - back spatter, is watertight.
He has to produce an alternative watertight theory.
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Surely testing was carried out commensurate with a murder/suicide crime, which is what it was claimed to have been at the time the tests were done. I'm not certain what the difference would be between back splatter caused by the suicide's hand, and back splatter caused by the murder's hand. Is it believed that different testing is required for each?
Nothing to do with back spatter Jane, I thought two sets of groupings were required to get a reliable result? Just what I have read I don't set the standards.
To my knowledge only one was done I assume because of the small size of the flake of blood, but then you read there was a lot of blood in the silencer?
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Lookout's theory that Sheila took the silencer off mid massacre & her blood dripped in was impossible. Sheila was not bleeding mid massacre.
The relatives putting the wrong type of diluted blood into the silencer is impossible.
Although obtaining a mountain of other evidence, Snow66! suggests the police fabricated the silencer & told the relatives to check the gun cupboard.
Again you keep saying diluted Adam? please explain.
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Again you keep saying diluted Adam? please explain.
Period blood in a bucket of water.
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Rob says the experts are wrong and it is not Sheila's blood.
He agrees with everyone else & does not believe it is DB's blood.
He has not said whose blood it was which matched 17 out of 20 markings to Sheila & how it was inserted.
I don't say anyone is wrong but after spending a long time researching this case I am entitled to my opinion Adam, just as you are, though your opinion seems to be out of spite and no research whatsoever.
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I don't say anyone is wrong but after spending a long time researching this case I am entitled to my opinion Adam, just as you are, though your opinion seems to be out of spite and no research whatsoever.
Do you agree that the guilters explanation of how Sheila's blood got into the silencer - back spatter, is watertight?
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Period blood in a bucket of water.
Ok thanks Adam, however I think you will find that dried clots of blood do not dilute in water.
Clots of blood is quite common in you know what.
You know what I think, which is someone got lucky with the flake of blood matching Sheila's blood group.
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Do you agree that the guilters explanation of how Sheila's blood got into the silencer - back spatter, is watertight?
No sorry Adam I believe the silencer was never on the gun that night.
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No sorry Adam I believe the silencer was never on the gun that night.
Do you agree that the guilters explanation of how Sheila's blood got into the silencer - back spatter, is watertight?
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Ok thanks Adam, however I think you will find that dried clots of blood do not dilute in water.
Clots of blood is quite common in you know what.
You know what I think, which is someone got lucky with the flake of blood matching Sheila's blood group.
Who?
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Do you agree that the guilters explanation of how Sheila's blood got into the silencer - back spatter, is watertight?
Answering my own question, Rob believes it is watertight.
However he believes Sheila shot herself twice in an area of high blood flow with a contact & 'within 3 inches' shot, minus the silencer.
He needs to explain why there was no back spatter blood on the rifle barrel. Together with providing his silencer fabrication scenario.
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Do you agree that the guilters explanation of how Sheila's blood got into the silencer - back spatter, is watertight?
A head shot I would agree, a contact shot to the neck I am not so sure. Sheila would have immediately fallen back. The neck area is nothing compared to a head shot in terms of splatter.
Where is all the blood from the other victims? cannot just be Sheila's in the silencer? if it is then surely this proves it was planted?
Do you have any sources that certain wounds were fired with a silencer on the gun? I have seen nothing conclusive?
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A head shot I would agree, a contact shot to the neck I am not so sure. Sheila would have immediately fallen back. The neck area is nothing compared to a head shot in terms of splatter.
Where is all the blood from the other victims? cannot just be Sheila's in the silencer? if it is then surely this proves it was planted?
Do you have any sources that certain wounds were fired with a silencer on the gun? I have seen nothing conclusive?
I have already posted the distances & locations of the other shots. You should know anyway.
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I have already posted the distances & locations of the other shots. You should know anyway.
I do and there should be blood from some of the other victims present in the silencer.
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If it wasn't Sheila's blood whose was it? On the assumption it was Sheila's blood what viable options for a source exist other than 'drawback' as the jury was told at trial?
it's a blood group
it can't be ascertained
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it's a blood group
it can't be ascertained
What can't be ascertained?
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Nothing to do with back spatter Jane, I thought two sets of groupings were required to get a reliable result? Just what I have read I don't set the standards.
To my knowledge only one was done I assume because of the small size of the flake of blood, but then you read there was a lot of blood in the silencer?
You need to read Dr Lincoln's report for the defence.
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Again you keep saying diluted Adam? please explain.
The method used to determine the blood groups in 1985/6 was serological analysis using gel electrophoresis. This requires good quality dried blood stains of a certain quantity. Blood from a pair of menstrual stained knickers soaking in a bucket of water is a complete non-starter. Many blood stained items were unable to yield results eg the rifle that had numerous blood stains on because the stains were too small or too degraded.
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I do and there should be blood from some of the other victims present in the silencer.
So you know why.