Jeremy Bamber Forum
OTHER HIGH PROFILE CASES => Luke Mitchell and the murder of Jodi Jones => Topic started by: killingeve on January 25, 2022, 09:09:AM
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It seems to me that those who believe Luke innocent throw other names into the hat eg the moped boys. And yet what is about these local young guys, other than being in the vicinity at the time, that marks them out as having the propensity to carry out such a murder described by the pathologist as follows:
Professor Busuttil said that he had been involved in many homicide cases and had not come across mutilation as extensive as this, or had done so only infrequently. Mutilation was quite uncommon, especially where there was no sexual element in the attack.
Dalkeith isn't some remote place in the Highlands or a sparsely populated island. Its near trunk roads, Edinburgh, Glasgow, international airports, train stations, ports and attractions such as a golf course and fishing that bring in outsiders. It could be anyone from anywhere so why the emphasis on locals?
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One of the reasons I have my doubts about Luke being responsible is that there doesn't appear to be anything in his background suggesting he was capable of this. I would suggest it takes a certain mindset to start wripping into the flesh of another human being with a knife and to carry on doing so post death. Hence the pathologist said it was highly unusual. Also there's no obvious motive for the murder.
Appreciate Peter Tobin was behind bars at the time of Jodie's murder but if you look at his background all the warning signs were there from an early age. Also a psychologist diagnosed him as a psychopath.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Tobin
Likewise for Robert Napper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Napper
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It seems to me that those who believe Luke innocent throw other names into the hat eg the moped boys. And yet what is about these local young guys, other than being in the vicinity at the time, that marks them out as having the propensity to carry out such a murder described by the pathologist as follows:
Professor Busuttil said that he had been involved in many homicide cases and had not come across mutilation as extensive as this, or had done so only infrequently. Mutilation was quite uncommon, especially where there was no sexual element in the attack.
Dalkeith isn't some remote place in the Highlands or a sparsely populated island. Its near trunk roads, Edinburgh, Glasgow, international airports, train stations, ports and attractions such as a golf course and fishing that bring in outsiders. It could be anyone from anywhere so why the emphasis on locals?
I agree but I think the reason was that this path is known mainly by locals. Even SL admits to not knowing of its existence prior to the murder. Anyone out for a ramble with an OS map would find it. Similarly a nutter out for kicks could have been looking for a suitable stalk and kill location and decided upon this path because it lent itself to the perpetrator's needs.
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It seems to me that those who believe Luke innocent throw other names into the hat eg the moped boys. And yet what is about these local young guys, other than being in the vicinity at the time, that marks them out as having the propensity to carry out such a murder described by the pathologist as follows:
Professor Busuttil said that he had been involved in many homicide cases and had not come across mutilation as extensive as this, or had done so only infrequently. Mutilation was quite uncommon, especially where there was no sexual element in the attack.
Dalkeith isn't some remote place in the Highlands or a sparsely populated island. Its near trunk roads, Edinburgh, Glasgow, international airports, train stations, ports and attractions such as a golf course and fishing that bring in outsiders. It could be anyone from anywhere so why the emphasis on locals?
they were at a murder scene at the time the murder is suppose failed to come forward when asked to and then lied about what time they were on there if that doesnt make you a legitmate murder suspect what does
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I agree but I think the reason was that this path is known mainly by locals. Even SL admits to not knowing of its existence prior to the murder. Anyone out for a ramble with an OS map would find it. Similarly a nutter out for kicks could have been looking for a suitable stalk and kill location and decided upon this path because it lent itself to the perpetrator's needs.
The Chillenden murders took place on a quiet country lane:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Stone_(criminal)
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they were at a murder scene at the time the murder is suppose failed to come forward when asked to and then lied about what time they were on there if that doesnt make you a legitmate murder suspect what does
Did they have previous? What about their lives post murder?
The jury was given the opportunity of considering them but found Luke guilty.
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The Chillenden murders took place on a quiet country lane:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Stone_(criminal)
these local people became suspects by there own actions an it wasnt that we specifacly looking for local people
2 o them were at the murder scene an lie about another ones sperm was found on the victems bra
another ones condom was found at the scene an he told an absurd story about it.
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One of the reasons I have my doubts about Luke being responsible is that there doesn't appear to be anything in his background suggesting he was capable of this. I would suggest it takes a certain mindset to start wripping into the flesh of another human being with a knife and to carry on doing so post death. Hence the pathologist said it was highly unusual. Also there's no obvious motive for the murder.
Appreciate Peter Tobin was behind bars at the time of Jodie's murder but if you look at his background all the warning signs were there from an early age. Also a psychologist diagnosed him as a psychopath.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Tobin
Likewise for Robert Napper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Napper
According to wiki Tobin was in prison at the time of Jodie's murder but he was coming to the end of his sentence - released in 2004. Was he out on some sort of short term release/day release at the time of Jodie's murder? There have been cases in the past where those out on short term/day release commit further crimes in a window of opportunity.
https://www.gov.uk/leaving-prison/temporary-release-from-prison-
Temporary release from prison
A prisoner may be allowed to leave prison for short periods towards the end of their sentence - whatever its type or length.
However, the prison will not release someone if it thinks they’re a risk to the public or may commit more crime.
Resettlement day release
A resettlement day release lets a prisoner out during the day. This is so the prisoner can do things to help them prepare for release, such as:
attend a work placement or training course to help them find work once they’re released
attend school or college
maintain family ties
Resettlement overnight release
A resettlement overnight release lets a prisoner spend the night at the place they’ll live at after they’re released.
The authorities obviously didn't think Tobin was much of a risk since he was released in 2004.
There are some similarities between the murders of Vicky Hamilton and that of Jodie Jones.
It seems he was serving his sentence in South of England and upon release returned to Paisley.
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these local people became suspects by there own actions an it wasnt that we specifacly looking for local people
2 o them were at the murder scene an lie about another ones sperm was foun on the victems bra
another ones condo was foun at the scene an he told an absurd story about it.
I haven't heard anything about sperm found on a bra? I understand Jodie's sister's boyfriend's dna was found on her bra but that was explained by the fact the tshirt belonged to Jodie's sister?
But is there anything in the background of these individuals to suggest they were capable of such a crime? I believe the condom guy came to attention as a result of a DNA match on the police database 2/3 years post murder? Why was his dna on the police database?
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The Chillenden murders took place on a quiet country lane:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Stone_(criminal)
This a much smaller place and more remote. Local population tiny compared to Easterhouses and Newbattle.
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Did they have previous? What about their lives post murder?
The jury was given the opportunity of considering them but found Luke guilty.
One of the moped boys gave evidence at trial saying he supplied Luke with Cannabis.
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According to wiki Tobin was in prison at the time of Jodie's murder but he was coming to the end of his sentence - released in 2004. Was he out on some sort of short term release/day release at the time of Jodie's murder? There have been cases in the past where those out on short term/day release commit further crimes in a window of opportunity.
https://www.gov.uk/leaving-prison/temporary-release-from-prison-
Temporary release from prison
A prisoner may be allowed to leave prison for short periods towards the end of their sentence - whatever its type or length.
However, the prison will not release someone if it thinks they’re a risk to the public or may commit more crime.
Resettlement day release
A resettlement day release lets a prisoner out during the day. This is so the prisoner can do things to help them prepare for release, such as:
attend a work placement or training course to help them find work once they’re released
attend school or college
maintain family ties
Resettlement overnight release
A resettlement overnight release lets a prisoner spend the night at the place they’ll live at after they’re released.
The authorities obviously didn't think Tobin was much of a risk since he was released in 2004.
There are some similarities between the murders of Vicky Hamilton and that of Jodie Jones.
It seems he was serving his sentence in South of England and upon release returned to Paisley.
Tobin hid his bodies whoever did this posed and displayed them in the open.
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I haven't heard anything about sperm found on a bra? I understand Jodie's sister's boyfriend's dna was found on her bra but that was explained by the fact the tshirt belonged to Jodie's sister?
But is there anything in the background of these individuals to suggest they were capable of such a crime? I believe the condom guy came to attention as a result of a DNA match on the police database 2/3 years post murder? Why was his dna on the police database?
Lukes DNA was found on JJ's bra strap but considered as transference at another time since they could have had a bit of 'slap and tickle' during the day. I understand it was not used as evidence at trial for this reason.
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Lukes DNA was found on JJ's bra strap but considered as transference at another time since they could have had a bit of 'slap and tickle' during the day. I understand it was not used as evidence at trial for this reason.
sperm was oun on the brastrap belonging to jois sisters boyfriend.
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sperm was oun on the brastrap belonging to jois sisters boyfriend.
Sorry I think you are wrong. It was on the T shirt. It was said to have been borrowed by by her sister and that's how it was found on JJ.
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Sorry I think you are wrong. It was on the T shirt. It was said to have been borrowed by by her sister and that's how it was found on JJ.
it was suposed to hvae transfere on to the bra from the t shirt.
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it wass upose to hae transfer on to the bra from the t shirt.
Do not want to be a stickler but what is your source. Thanks.
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This a much smaller place and more remote. Local population tiny compared to Easterhouses and Newbattle.
Yes sure but it was in response to your post saying SL said she did not even know of the path. I was just pointing out that grisly murders do take place in little known areas.
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One of the moped boys gave evidence at trial saying he supplied Luke with Cannabis.
Yes I was aware of this but dealing cannabis is a far cry from murder and mutlilation without obvious motive.
If Jodie stumbled across something/someone or got into some verbal altercation which got out of hand why would the perp continue stabbing and mutilating post death? Maybe lash out in anger but that's not what happened.
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sperm was oun on the brastrap belonging to jois sisters boyfriend.
I don't believe any sperm was found on Jodie's person or clothing.
I understand Luke's DNA was found on her bra and Stephen Kelly's DNA on her tshirt. Defence and prosecution agreed pre trial Luke's DNA on her bra was meaningless since the pair were having an intimate relationship. Stephen Kelly's DNA was accounted for by the fact the tshirt Jodie was wearing belonged to her sister who was having an initimate relationship with Stephen Kelly.
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Tobin hid his bodies whoever did this posed and displayed them in the open.
them?
I don't believe there's any evidence Jodie's body was posed?
Tobin used a dagger and cut Vicky Hamilton in two. Its a bit of a longshot for him to be involved in Jodie's case unless as I said he was given early release time out.
Maybe the perp in the case of Jodie was disturbed and fled the scene.
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Yes sure but it was in response to your post saying SL said she did not even know of the path. I was just pointing out that grisly murders do take place in little known areas.
Of course. I think the local police could not or did not consider that some deranged individual might have been in their area and launch a nationwide enquiry (including England) to see if there had been any similar cases. Did they? Why did they not link this in with the profiling work that was done by the FBI? It looks like they took an easy option in the end to condemn a local lad purely on weak circumstantial evidence. It is also possible that the perpetrator deliberately put distance between his/her crimes, including a different legal jurisdiction and police force, away from his/her original 'hunting ground' to relieve suspicions from earlier attacks. This crime may have been committed by someone with this kind of mindset. Other serial killers have taken this kind of action.
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Of course. I think the local police could not or did not consider that some deranged individual might have been in their area and launch a nationwide enquiry (including England) to see if there had been any similar cases. Did they? Why did they not link this in with the profiling work that was done by the FBI? It looks like they took an easy option in the end to condemn a local lad purely on weak circumstantial evidence. It is also possible that the perpetrator deliberately put distance between his/her crimes, including a different legal jurisdiction and police force, away from his/her original 'hunting ground' to relieve suspicions from earlier attacks. This crime may have been committed by someone with this kind of mindset. Other serial killers have taken this kind of action.
Yes may even have planned it around the weather ie anticpating the body would not be found until after the heavy rainfall thus removing trace evidence.
Would the body have been found as quickly as it was without Luke's dog Mia who I understand had some training as a tracker dog?
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Yes may even have planned it around the weather ie anticpating the body would not be found until after the heavy rainfall thus removing trace evidence.
Would the body have been found as quickly as it was without Luke's dog Mia who I understand had some training as a tracker dog?
them?
I don't believe there's any evidence Jodie's body was posed?
Tobin used a dagger and cut Vicky Hamilton in two. Its a bit of a longshot for him to be involved in Jodie's case unless as I said he was given early release time out.
Maybe the perp in the case of Jodie was disturbed and fled the scene.
The disturbed and fled is possible. The posing is slight but why place the bra cups together? Why was her own hair in her hand? The crime scene was not protected and we do not know whether the family caused any disturbance to the scene. I find the attack to the throat, the blow to the back of the head and the mutilation of the breast signature elements to the case.
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them?
I don't believe there's any evidence Jodie's body was posed?
Tobin used a dagger and cut Vicky Hamilton in two. Its a bit of a longshot for him to be involved in Jodie's case unless as I said he was given early release time out.
Maybe the perp in the case of Jodie was disturbed and fled the scene.
I use the term them because this murder was not the first time the perpetrator had struck. This does not look like an attack by a 'newbie'. It was not a first attempt gone wrong. Whoever did this IMO had done something similar before.
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The disturbed and fled is possible. The posing is slight but why place the bra cups together? Why was her own hair in her hand? The crime scene was not protected and we do not know whether the family caused any disturbance to the scene. I find the attack to the throat, the blow to the back of the head and the mutilation of the breast signature elements to the case.
Where can I read about the bra cups and hair in hand?
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Where can I read about the bra cups and hair in hand?
I am afraid I cannot help there. I investigated the case in 2019 when the JB case was in the doldrums and only returned to it when QC re-highlighted the case. Most of it is remembered detail from this time. I did not catalogue my findings. This information could have come from various sources at different times. Some comes from Busutill I think. Other bits could be from various news media outlets. Sorry I can't be of more help but am reluctant to recommence 'data mining' at this time. Whilst not having a truly photographic memory it is pretty good as I think my analysis and subsequent postings shows.
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I am afraid I cannot help there. I investigated the case in 2019 when the JB case was in the doldrums and only returned to it when QC re-highlighted the case. Most of it is remembered detail from this time. I did not catalogue my findings. This information could have come from various sources at different times. Some comes from Busutill I think. Other bits could be from various news media outlets. Sorry I can't be of more help but am reluctant to recommence 'data mining' at this time. Whilst not having a truly photographic memory it is pretty good as I think my analysis and subsequent postings shows.
Ok thanks. I'll have a root around when I have more time.
The 'Free Libarary' has a lot of press articles about the trial.
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As mentioned on this thread and another about likely profile of perp, Dalkeith is not remote. It's close to trunk roads, ports, domestic and international airports, train stations and has plenty to attract outsiders eg fishing and golf.
A fisherman would more than likely have a vehicle, camping equipment, change of clothes including waterproofs, maps, and sharp instruments eg knives He (maybe she) would most likely be aware of weather conditions too ie the heavy rainfall which fell on the eve of the murder and destroyed much of the forensic evidence.
https://britishseafishing.co.uk/legal-issues-of-carrying-knives-for-fishing/
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[16] The second key was the evidence of the witness Andrina Bryson. She had seen a male and a female standing near the Easthouses end of the path at around 1650 or 1655. The female was standing close to the beginning of the path on the pavement looking towards the male, who was on the path. The witness identified the appellant from a book of photographs as being the male whom she had seen. She noted him as wearing a khaki green, hip-length, fishing-style jacket. Its collar was up, and it had a pocket which was bulging.
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[16] The second key was the evidence of the witness Andrina Bryson. She had seen a male and a female standing near the Easthouses end of the path at around 1650 or 1655. The female was standing close to the beginning of the path on the pavement looking towards the male, who was on the path. The witness identified the appellant from a book of photographs as being the male whom she had seen. She noted him as wearing a khaki green, hip-length, fishing-style jacket. Its collar was up, and it had a pocket which was bulging.
There you go
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There you go
https://bonfirebob.com/best-fishing-knives/
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[16] The second key was the evidence of the witness Andrina Bryson. She had seen a male and a female standing near the Easthouses end of the path at around 1650 or 1655. The female was standing close to the beginning of the path on the pavement looking towards the male, who was on the path. The witness identified the appellant from a book of photographs as being the male whom she had seen. She noted him as wearing a khaki green, hip-length, fishing-style jacket. Its collar was up, and it had a pocket which was bulging.
One would have thought other pupils would be able to say what type of jacket Luke wore to school. His mother insists her son never wore one of that type until after the murder.
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One would have thought other pupils would be able to say what type of jacket Luke wore to school. His mother insists her son never wore one of that type until after the murder.
You would think someone somewhere would have photographic evidence by way of cctv or private images: school, neighbours, public transport, shops, friends.