Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on November 22, 2021, 10:24:PM
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It is possible Sheila was shot first. While sleeping.
Bamber moving her later on, changing the bed clothes & disposing of the bloodied ones.
This would mean he only went upstairs with 10 bullets. As only 9 bullets were fired in the main bedroom. I don't believe he would intially shoot Sheila twice.
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No, Nevill would have been killed first, and judging by his position after death, he'd been dead the longest.
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It is possible Sheila was shot first. While sleeping.
Bamber moving her later on, changing the bed clothes & disposing of the bloodied ones.
This would mean he only went upstairs with 10 bullets. As only 9 bullets were fired in the main bedroom. I don't believe he would intially shoot Sheila twice.
I came up with this idea last year. There are problems with it, but I agree this is how he would do it if he planned it out properly.
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RM was more prominent in Nevill.
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Believe Bamber would be confident in either routine.
Whether going upstairs with 11 bullets & shooting the twins once each. Or going upstairs with 10 bullets & shooting Sheila once.
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Once the three adults were negated. He could re load downstairs & shoot the sleeping twins.
Of course getting an alive Sheila to move a few yards was also very possible.
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Once the three adults were negated. He could re load downstairs & shoot the sleeping twins.
Of course getting an alive Sheila to move a few yards was also very possible.
Yes, he led her to the bedroom and told her to lie down " while I shoot you too " ::)
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Yes, he led her to the bedroom and told her to lie down " while I shoot you too " ::)
Sheila was a lamb to the slaughter. Sadly.
Bamber knew this from his supper reconnaissance.
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Sheila was a lamb to the slaughter. Sadly.
Bamber knew this from his supper reconnaissance.
So how did he get the shot Adam this is a puzzle to me? we know she was not sedated?
She would have seen June by the door and panic would have set in, her children next or already shot.
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So how did he get the shot Adam this is a puzzle to me? we know she was not sedated?
She would have seen June by the door and panic would have set in, her children next or already shot.
'Get Shot'? Bamber pulled the trigger.
She was 'under sedation' according to the COA.
No guarantee she would see June. It was dark, she was half asleep & 'under sedation'.
And as the thread says - 'Was Sheila shot first'.
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" A lamb to the slaughter " is not how I'd have described Sheila in a psychotic state----her victims were.
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It is possible Sheila was shot first. While sleeping.
Bamber moving her later on, changing the bed clothes & disposing of the bloodied ones.
This would mean he only went upstairs with 10 bullets. As only 9 bullets were fired in the main bedroom. I don't believe he would intially shoot Sheila twice.
Too complicated.
Doesn't seem to fit the pathological evidence of very limited movement between the two shots.
Did he also move the casing? What did he do with the bedding?
Mrs Bamber received 6 gunshot wounds in the first round (2 gunshot wounds in the second round) and Mr Bamber 4 gunshot wounds in the first round all of which were upstairs. Bamber had a pocket full of ammunition and was totally familiar with the rifle so reloading would take seconds.
The ten shots fired in the first round upstairs aligns with how Bamber said he left the rifle/magazine ie to capacity (10) but removed the cartridge from the breech.
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Too complicated.
Doesn't seem to fit the pathological evidence of very limited movement between the two shots.
Did he also move the casing? What did he do with the bedding?
Mrs Bamber received 6 gunshot wounds in the first round (2 gunshot wounds in the second round) and Mr Bamber 4 gunshot wounds in the first round all of which were upstairs. Bamber had a pocket full of ammunition and was totally familiar with the rifle so reloading would take seconds.
The ten shots fired in the first round upstairs aligns with how Bamber said he left the rifle/magazine ie to capacity (10) but removed the cartridge from the breech.
That is a good point about the casings. He may have moved the one/two casing/s in Sheila's bedroom.
June was shot 5 & 2 times. So enough amo to shoot June/Nevill 9 times upstairs after shooting Sheila once/twice.
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That is a good point about the casings. He may have moved the one/two casing in Sheila's bedroom.
June was shot 5 & 2 times. So enough amo to shoot June/Nevill 9 times upstairs after shooting Sheila once/twice.
Or rather he would 'have to move the shell casing/s' if he shot Sheila in her bedroom.
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He would shoot Sheila once in her bedroom. Assuming this shot in that location would kill her.
While later moving her, he saw she was still breathing. So shot her again.
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Too complicated.
Doesn't seem to fit the pathological evidence of very limited movement between the two shots.
Did he also move the casing? What did he do with the bedding?
Mrs Bamber received 6 gunshot wounds in the first round (2 gunshot wounds in the second round) and Mr Bamber 4 gunshot wounds in the first round all of which were upstairs. Bamber had a pocket full of ammunition and was totally familiar with the rifle so reloading would take seconds.
The ten shots fired in the first round upstairs aligns with how Bamber said he left the rifle/magazine ie to capacity (10) but removed the cartridge from the breech.
Good points, but to be fair, I'm not sure the pathological evidence could rule out that there was a lengthy delay between the two shots. I think the focus was more on the question of whether Sheila herself was moving around between the shots, if you see what I mean.
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He would shoot Sheila once in her bedroom. Assuming this shot in that location would kill her.
While later moving her, he saw she was still breathing. So shot her again.
By then he had already had to shoot June & Nevill 15 times. So believed no one would make a big thing about a second shot by Sheila.
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Who said there was 'very limited movement' between shots?
The shots are close together. That just means Bamber had chosen his location beforehand.
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Good points, but to be fair, I'm not sure the pathological evidence could rule out that there was a lengthy delay between the two shots. I think the focus was more on the question of whether Sheila herself was moving around between the shots, if you see what I mean.
That's what I was referring to when I said "limited movement". The pathologist for the defence but the time interval between the two shots at a maximum of a few minutes.
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Who said there was 'very limited movement' between shots?
The shots are close together. That just means Bamber had chosen his location beforehand.
Very limited movement in terms of Sheila moving voluntarily or involuntary ie your reference to her being carried between the two shots.
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Where does it say all this Adam ?
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Where does it say all this Adam ?
All what.
Shooting Sheila once/twice first, then Nevill & June 9 times, matches a 10/11 bullet opening salvo.
The aim would be to kill the 3 adults before re loading.
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All what.
Shooting Sheila once/twice first, then Nevill & June 9 times, matches a 10/11 bullet opening salvo.
The aim would be to kill the 3 adults before re loading.
Your " matter of fact posts ", where's the documentation to match them ?
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Your " matter of fact posts ", where's the documentation to match them ?
Well the evidence is the rifle holds 11 bullets. Bamber would go upstairs fully loaded. Or had 10 bullets & didn't put one in the breach.
So either shot the twins once each & then 9 bullets into June & Nevill - 11 bullets.
Or shot Sheila once/twice in her bed. Then 9 bullets into June & Nevill - 10/11 bullets.
It was hopeing the opening salvo would either kill 3 adults. Or 2 adults & 2 children.
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Bamber would know where there were spare bed sheets inside WHF. So it would be a case of replacing the bed sheets & moving the cartridge/s. Which would take 5 minutes.
Lifting a lifeless Sheila a few feet would not be hard.
Disposing the bloodied bed sheets - aga, washing machine, dumped in a river.
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Of course, Sheila may have been shot twice, last. Where she was found.
Bamber would have known if she was a lamb to the slaughter at his supper reconnaissance.
Lots of possibilities fitting the crime scene evidence.
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One option would have been to kill Sheila in her bed & leave her there.
It could simply be said Sheila went back to her bed to shoot herself after killing everyone else.
The evidence Sheila was ever out of bed - Nevill's call to Bamber.
This did not happen. Bamber wanted more convincing evidence Sheila had been out of bed.
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There is no blood in Sheila's room plus the both pathologists stated she was sitting upwards when both shots were fired.
So the answer is no.
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There is no blood in Sheila's room plus the both pathologists stated she was sitting upwards when both shots were fired.
So the answer is no.
As said, the bed sheets would be replaced.
She could have been sitting upright in bed.
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There is no blood in Sheila's room plus the both pathologists stated she was sitting upwards when both shots were fired.
So the answer is no.
I agree, wasn’t it also said that both shots happened more or less not long after each one was fired?
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There is no blood in Sheila's room plus the both pathologists stated she was sitting upwards when both shots were fired.
So the answer is no.
To be accurate you should say there is no visible blood in SC's room. We do not know what is on the far side of the bed we have no pictures. There is also a garment to the left side of the bed, near the pillow. This could be hiding blood from where she shot herself. The dynamics for SC being able to shoot herself change dramatically if she can sit on what is a lower bed than that in the main bedroom. If she was shot on the bed it would explain the view that someone had laid on the bed without actually using it.
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To be accurate you should say there is no visible blood in SC's room. We do not know what is on the far side of the bed we have no pictures. There is also a garment to the left side of the bed, near the pillow. This could be hiding blood from where she shot herself. The dynamics for SC being able to shoot herself change dramatically if she can sit on what is a lower bed than that in the main bedroom. If she was shot on the bed it would explain the view that someone had laid on the bed without actually using it.
She shot herself in the main bedroom hence there is a pool of her blood on the carpet and two shell casings right by her body.
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She shot herself in the main bedroom hence there is a pool of her blood on the carpet and two she'll casings right by her body.
I was not aware that her blood had been found in a pool. I thought the carpet sample bloods were from June. Where is this evidence? If she was moved some residual blood could have been found in the main bedroom. There is no way to prove that the casings were from bullets fired into Sheila. your comments do not answer the point I made about visible blood.
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She shot herself in the main bedroom hence there is a pool of her blood on the carpet and two she'll casings right by her body.
The two shell casings could have been planted by the killer so that doesn’t prove anything David?
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The two shell casings could have been planted by the killer so that doesn’t prove anything David?
The shell casings come out the gun after the trigger is pulled.
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One thing I do find heartwarming, is that Thomas Mair brought David and RJ together in harmony. (Apologies for going off topic).
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She shot herself in the main bedroom hence there is a pool of her blood on the carpet and two shell casings right by her body.
The shell casing could be moved.
Blood would be found where Sheila was found. Espescially if Bamber fired the second shot there. June was also there dripping blood.
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The shell casings come out the gun after the trigger is pulled.
I know that, I thought we was on about Sheila being shot in her bedroom first and then the second shot in her parents bedroom. I was pointing out the shell casings could have been moved for that to happen?
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The shell casings come out the gun after the trigger is pulled.
In the earlier days of the forum, I recall Mike T claiming that during the second investigation, the police changed the positions of the shell casings to suit the prosecution case. Did he not also claim that a shell casing could be moved accidentally via becoming attached to a police boot? Rings a bell.
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Bamber could have wrapped Sheila in the bed sheets & carried her to the main bedroom. Therefore no blood would drip from her onto the carpet.
The sheets would then be disposed of.
Sheila's blood would continue to drip where she was found. Espescially if she received her second shot there.
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One thing I do find heartwarming, is that Thomas Mair brought David and RJ together in harmony. (Apologies for going off topic).
To be honest Roch, I found once Caroline and Jane left he stuck to debating rather than his obsession with them both and his knowledge is very good, strangely we do have a lot in Common. I’m personally not bothered that he thinks Sheila did it and me opposite, he still questions me and me him.
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If going for an 11 shot massacre this way, it would have been -
Sheila 1 shot.
June/Nevill 8 shots.
The twins two shots.
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Nevill reacting resulted in 9 shots in the main bedroom & a reload needed.
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In the earlier days of the forum, I recall Mike T claiming that during the second investigation, the police changed the positions of the shell casings to suit the prosecution case. Did he not also claim that a shell casing could be moved accidentally via becoming attached to a police boot? Rings a bell.
The two shell casings have always been a problem to me Roch, one either side etc. But David says one bounced off the bed to land where it did, I’m not sure?
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The two shell casings have always been a problem to me Roch, one either side etc. But David says one bounced off the bed to land where it did, I’m not sure?
I think Mike was referring to the casings being used to argue that Nevill was shot upstairs.
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I think Mike was referring to the casings being used to argue that Nevill was shot upstairs.
Oh right.
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David and his bouncing bullets. Next he will be saying he has found a forensic evidence breakthrough.
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Anyway Bamber had choices regarding Sheila. Shoot first or last.
He may have only made his final decision after his supper reconnaissance.
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Julie's WS says Bamber told her the twins were shot first and Sheila last.
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Bullets are known to bounce AKA ricochet. But I don't think that applies to this case.
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Julie's WS says Bamber told her the twins were shot first and Sheila last.
That wasn't very clever of Jeremy was it? Giving away specific details of multiple murders including his own nephews. He didn't quite have get this inheritance plan watertight did he?
It AMAZES me that people actually buy this bullshit.
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That wasn't very clever of Jeremy was it? Giving away specific details of multiple murders including his own nephews. He didn't quite have get this inheritance plan watertight did he?
It AMAZES me that people actually buy this bullshit.
He tells her all this then breaks up with her.
One point that occurs to me is that in her first statement, Julie is very precise about when the relationship with Jeremy began: 26th. December 1983. I think she may have had a diary. The so-called diary that was produced and is viewable in the archives here is clearly not actually Julie's. Somewhere I think there was an authentic diurnal account of her relationship with Jeremy, between November 1983 and September 1985, that may have been destroyed by Julie or has been retained and secreted away somewhere.
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He tells her all this then breaks up with her.
One point that occurs to me is that in her first statement, Julie is very precise about when the relationship with Jeremy began: 26th. December 1983. I think she may have had a diary. The so-called diary that was produced and is viewable in the archives here is clearly not actually Julie's. Somewhere I think there was an authentic diurnal account of her relationship with Jeremy, between November 1983 and September 1985, that may have been destroyed by Julie or has been retained and secreted away somewhere.
Boxing day so not difficult to remember?
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It is possible Sheila was shot first. While sleeping.
No Sheila died last.
She has small nicks and grazes on her photographed hand, as well as what appear to be fingernail gouges and scrapes. In addition, on the same hand along the span of her trigger-finger is another nick. She has a bruise on her throat probably caused by her neck chain being yanked from behind (the bruise roughly corresponds with either the ring of the necklace pendant or the pendant itself). She has a pendant earring snagged on the upper part of her nightdress, not too far from the bloodied armpit area. Her earlobes are swollen. On her wrist are dug-in nail marks which have bled, so that the blood tapers away from the marks to the underside of her wrist, where they merge and become thinner. At the upper end of the same arm, there are thin cuts which have no source or connection to any other stream of blood on her person. There may be a bruise upon her forehead underneath her hairline.
In my opinion, it is unlikely that bed linen caused these injuries. It is also unlikely that she was led to her death zombie-like and without resistance, by any killer.
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No Sheila died last.
She has small nicks and grazes on her photographed hand, as well as what appear to be fingernail gouges and scrapes. In addition, on the same hand along the span of her trigger-finger is another nick. She has a bruise on her throat probably caused by her neck chain being yanked from behind (the bruise roughly corresponds with either the ring of the necklace pendant or the pendant itself). She has a pendant earring snagged on the upper part of her nightdress, not too far from the bloodied armpit area. Her earlobes are swollen. On her wrist are dug-in nail marks which have bled, so that the blood tapers away from the marks to the underside of her wrist, where they merge and become thinner. At the upper end of the same arm, there are thin cuts which have no source or connection to any other stream of blood on her person. There may be a bruise upon her forehead underneath her hairline.
In my opinion, it is unlikely that bed linen caused these injuries. It is also unlikely that she was led to her death zombie-like and without resistance, by any killer.
I agree Roch Sheila died last, and quite a bit latter I believe?
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I agree Roch Sheila died last, and quite a bit latter I believe?
Personally, I would imagine so. I understand that Bubo has also suggested a later death for June than the official version. I agree with Italian professors regarding Sheila. Her death is consistent with the time of the TFG op.
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Personally, I would imagine so. I understand that Bubo has also suggested a later death for June than the official version. I agree with Italian professors regarding Sheila. Her death is consistent with the time of the TFG op.
Look forward to your Sheila scenario Roch.
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Personally, I would imagine so. I understand that Bubo has also suggested a later death for June than the official version. I agree with Italian professors regarding Sheila. Her death is consistent with the time of the TFG op.
There was one statement that said "leaking" when describing Sheila's wound? maybe badly worded but it caught by interest.
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Look forward to your Sheila scenario Roch.
What people don't realise, is that the only credible scenario is one which includes explanations for the following:
Sheila's non gunshot wounds and her gunshot wounds.
Nevill's non gunshot wounds and his gunshot wounds.
June's non gunshot wounds and her gunshot wounds.
Jeremy's complete lack of both sets of wounds.
I question whether there were more than just one incident that night. Was an earlier non lethal incident contained by Nevill and June?
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Why did PV refer to the scene as being staged?
Further he said that for JB to have killed and staged Sheila in the manner displayed she would have to have been drugged. I believe I am right in saying that no drugs outside her normal medication were found.
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No Sheila died last.
She has small nicks and grazes on her photographed hand, as well as what appear to be fingernail gouges and scrapes. In addition, on the same hand along the span of her trigger-finger is another nick. She has a bruise on her throat probably caused by her neck chain being yanked from behind (the bruise roughly corresponds with either the ring of the necklace pendant or the pendant itself). She has a pendant earring snagged on the upper part of her nightdress, not too far from the bloodied armpit area. Her earlobes are swollen. On her wrist are dug-in nail marks which have bled, so that the blood tapers away from the marks to the underside of her wrist, where they merge and become thinner. At the upper end of the same arm, there are thin cuts which have no source or connection to any other stream of blood on her person. There may be a bruise upon her forehead underneath her hairline.
In my opinion, it is unlikely that bed linen caused these injuries. It is also unlikely that she was led to her death zombie-like and without resistance, by any killer.
If I remember rightly, one of her earrings had been yanked off as it was found somewhere in the bedroom. This would account for the swollen earlobe. It would have appeared that she'd been grabbed around the head.
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I agree Roch Sheila died last, and quite a bit latter I believe?
Apparently two Italian professors of pathology both said that Sheila hadn't been dead above 2 hours.
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Apparently two Italian professors of pathology both said that Sheila hadn't been dead above 2 hours.
You do come up with some corkers.
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You do come up with some corkers.
Names similar to Cavalli and Meloni. Mind you, that's just a guess!
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Names similar to Cavalli and Meloni. Mind you, that's just a guess!
That's them Roch.
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Apparently two Italian professors of pathology both said that Sheila hadn't been dead above 2 hours.
Why do we need the input of two Italian pathologists instructed by a, convicted criminal when Bamber's defence instructed eminent pathologist Prof Bernard Knight?
You're a moron and post rubbish.
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Why do we need the input of two Italian pathologists instructed by a, convicted criminal when Bamber's defence instructed eminent pathologist Prof Bernard Knight?
You're a moron and post rubbish.
No harm in mentioning it-----Pleb !
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Why do we need the input of two Italian pathologists instructed by a, convicted criminal when Bamber's defence instructed eminent pathologist Prof Bernard Knight?
You're a moron and post rubbish.
Maybe Knight wasn't up to the job. Can you please take the anti-Lookout poison back over to the Red forum? You are leaving far too many crumbs you know.
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Why do we need the input of two Italian pathologists instructed by a, convicted criminal when Bamber's defence instructed eminent pathologist Prof Bernard Knight?
You're a moron and post rubbish.
I wouldn't say Lookout is a moron.
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Maybe Knight wasn't up to the job. Can you please take the anti-Lookout poison back over to the Red forum? You are leaving far too many crumbs you know.
Following that line, isn't it it equally possible that neither were Cavalli and Maloni?
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I wouldn't say Lookout is a moron.
She posts like one! I can only speak as I find!
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Maybe Knight wasn't up to the job. Can you please take the anti-Lookout poison back over to the Red forum? You are leaving far too many crumbs you know.
He wrote a lengthy book about time of death.
Rather than focusing on me and other forums why don't you take a closer look at your idol and the police training manual!?
Maybe you could do with a spell on another forum to get out of your comfort zone!
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Maybe Knight wasn't up to the job. Can you please take the anti-Lookout poison back over to the Red forum? You are leaving far too many crumbs you know.
https://blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/product/The-Estimation-of-the-Time-Since-Death-in-the-Early-Postmortem-Period-by-Claus-Henssge-Bernard-Knight/9780340719602
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https://blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/product/The-Estimation-of-the-Time-Since-Death-in-the-Early-Postmortem-Period-by-Claus-Henssge-Bernard-Knight/9780340719602
Prof Bernard Knight CV
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I wouldn't say Lookout is a moron.
Thank you so much for that Adam, it's appreciated.
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He wrote a lengthy book about time of death.
Rather than focusing on me and other forums why don't you take a closer look at your idol and the police training manual!?
Maybe you could do with a spell on another forum to get out of your comfort zone!
Leave the poison over there, if you're posting here. It's a simple request. You do need to adjust from there to here.
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Thank you so much for that Adam, it's appreciated.
Adam goes for the softly, softly, drip, drip of "keep up" and "telling corkers". I go for the kill!
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Adam goes for the softly, softly, drip, drip of "keep up" and "telling corkers". I go for the kill!
Yes---because you're SICK !
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Leave the poison over there, if you're posting here. It's a simple request. You do need to adjust from there to here.
Your time would be better spent pursuing Bill and a copy of the 1985 police training manual which he says didn't exist in 1985 when he was an officer!
Poison? Take a look at what is said here about Colin Caffell and others. That's poison matey.
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Yes---because you're SICK !
I'm not the one that spends a decade on an Internet forum, day in and day out, slagging off the likes of Collin Caffell who is nothing other than a victim of a terrible crime.
Others may get taken in by you but I don't. I don't care if you're 18 or 81!
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Following that line, isn't it it equally possible that neither were Cavalli and Maloni?
Well somebody has to be right and somebody wrong.
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Poison? Take a look at what is said here about Colin Caffell and others. That's poison matey.
As far as I am aware, there has been reasoned and rational debate over here about the possible impact of Colin's behaviour on Sheila, and the impact of Sheila's behaviour on Colin. That's what we do here. You don't have to get all sanctimonious about it like what happens on the red forum. Again.. different environment. I'm trying to help you here.
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Well somebody has to be right and somebody wrong.
Not necessarily. The Italian job was as a result of bogus lawyer and convicted fraudster Giovanni De Stefano. Quite possible he manipulated the images.
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Not necessarily. The Italian job was as a result of bogus lawyer and convicted fraudster Giovanni De Stefano. Quite possible he manipulated the images.
You know what is, you can be dodgy and be a crook.. but also be right at the same time. Shit happens ;)
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As far as I am aware, there has been reasoned and rational debate over here about the possible impact of Colin's behaviour on Sheila, and the impact of Sheila's behaviour on Colin. That's what we do here. You don't have to get all sanctimonious about it like what happens on the red forum. Again.. different environment. I'm trying to help you here.
You make it sound as though it was benign when it was anything but.
The relationship had been over for years. There's no record of Sheila complaining to anyone about Colin.
Are you going to tackle Bill about the police training manual?
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You make it sound as though it was benign when it was anything but.
The relationship had been over for years. There's no record of Sheila complaining to anyone about Colin.
Are you going to tackle Bill about the police training manual?
I'm not sure exactly how you want me to tackle him?
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If Bill's got any sense he'll ignore the likes of QT.
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You make it sound as though it was benign when it was anything but.
The relationship had been over for years. There's no record of Sheila complaining to anyone about Colin.
Are you going to tackle Bill about the police training manual?
The Manual you refer to is for 'tactical public order' situations. That terminology refers to how the police respond to, manage and counteract public demonstrations, riots and similar incidents. Obviously there will be something in there about the deployment of armed police, but that has nothing to do with the situation at White House Farm, which was not a public order incident.