Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on November 20, 2021, 10:05:PM
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Please Come Over
Bamber could have got to WHF in less than 10 minutes.
Bamber's reaction:
He didn't come over.
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Sheila's gone crazy & she's got the gun.
This highlights things are life threatening.
It suggests Nevill had -
Already called the police.
Was about to call the police.
Wanted to keep matters private. As stated by Bamber.
Bamber's reaction:
He did call the police despite no request & Nevill wanting to keep family issues private.
He looked for the phone number of the sixth furthest away police station.
He called Julie.
He drove slowly to WHF.
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He could have gone straight over to WHF & knocked on the door. As requested by Nevill.
If Nevill answered then Nevill's request to 'please come over' has been done.
If there is no answer at WHF, then Bamber can ring the police from the nearest call box. He knew where it was as he called Julie that night.
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Obviously the police would already be at WHF or arrive later. If Nevill had called them.
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Obviously the police would already be at WHF or arrive later. If Nevill had called them.
I think we must be careful to not fall into a JB set trap. The only think we know for certain sure is that he called police around 3.20am. If there's a question about Nevill having called him within the previous 20minutes, there's an even greater one about him having called police within the same time-frame. It's more than likely he'd already been dead for several hours. so we're now working from a false time-frame.
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I think we must be careful to not fall into a JB set trap. The only think we know for certain sure is that he called police around 3.20am. If there's a question about Nevill having called him within the previous 20minutes, there's an even greater one about him having called police within the same time-frame. It's more than likely he'd already been dead for several hours. so we're now working from a false time-frame.
Jane, It's a pity more attention isn't focussed on avoiding an 'authorities' set trap' when trying to understand the case..
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16871430
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This is what happens when medics don't do their jobs properly by not taking body temperatures. It's so vital more so when there has been a murder rather than being on a hospital ward when someone is there at the time of death----though it still has to be written down on the hospital report. I worry about this more than anything especially when you have family asking what time they died.
Imagine asking a staff member in hospital what time their relative died and the answer was " I don't know ", wouldn't you question their ability to be in the profession ?
The taking of temperatures at a crime scene can be the difference between guilt and innocence. Just by looking at a corpse isn't practical at all, unless it's been above 6 hours, then another 6 before really stiff. I didn't recognise that in Sheila especially and wouldn't have said she'd been dead for above 3 hours in her photographs. The paleness of her face and limbs would have told me that her death was only in the initial ( first stage ) 1--3 hours. Her parents, because they were older would have had a more quickening effect of RM, which is why it should have been imperative that temperatures were taken.
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This is what happens when medics don't do their jobs properly by not taking body temperatures. It's so vital more so when there has been a murder rather than being on a hospital ward when someone is there at the time of death----though it still has to be written down on the hospital report. I worry about this more than anything especially when you have family asking what time they died.
Imagine asking a staff member in hospital what time their relative died and the answer was " I don't know ", wouldn't you question their ability to be in the profession ?
The taking of temperatures at a crime scene can be the difference between guilt and innocence. Just by looking at a corpse isn't practical at all, unless it's been above 6 hours, then another 6 before really stiff. I didn't recognise that in Sheila especially and wouldn't have said she'd been dead for above 3 hours in her photographs. The paleness of her face and limbs would have told me that her death was only in the initial ( first stage ) 1--3 hours. Her parents, because they were older would have had a more quickening effect of RM, which is why it should have been imperative that temperatures were taken.
Who wasn't do their job properly in this case with regard to the taking of body temperature?
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To say I'm incensed by this " small " detail of temperatures is an understatement !
You've only got to compare a pic of a person who's died beyond 3 hours to a person who's been dead for no longer than an hour. Sheila's appearance is called Pallor Mortis------Look it up !
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Bamber did/didn't do the two things Nevill did/didn't want -
He 'didn't come over'.
He 'did' call the police.
Doing/not doing these things put him in position where he could spend several hours insinuating Sheila, not apposed.
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Who wasn't do their job properly in this case with regard to the taking of body temperature?
Police doctor and pathologist.
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How could Bamber know in advance, that temperatures would not be taken?
Likewise, how can Bamber know in advance, that he will not obtain any injuries or marks from other adults or furniture, during the course of such exertions?
Similarly, how can Bamber know in advance that a discussion about 'fostering' (which may have meant no more than assistance) would be a catalyst for a mother to kill herself and her children and parents? Which historic cases of mothers carrying out similar acts would have been prominent enough in the public eye in order to give Bamber the idea of 'precedence'.
No wonder successive campaign teams have stuck with the label 'a work of fiction' with regard to the prosecution version of events.
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I wholeheartedly agree with you Roch. JB had fully relied upon the law to do their job-----and they let him down badly ! Unforgiveable !!
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Police doctor and pathologist.
Excerpts from the Dickinson report were uploaded the other day confirming it was not part of police surgeons' role at the time to take temps.
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I wholeheartedly agree with you Roch. JB had fully relied upon the law to do their job-----and they let him down badly ! Unforgiveable !!
How would he know in advance that a medical professional would not take temperatures at the scene? How could he know in advance, that a medical professional would not establish times of death for victims, that did not fit with timeline set by his own claims?
How can he ensure that a struggle with Nevill or Sheila (a mother with fingernails, potentially fighting for her children's lives) or that furniture being bumped in to, would not cause him to have visible marks on his own person?
If he can't guarantee that he will not be marked during the killing of five people, in a confined space with furniture, what is his plan B to explain the marks?
He turns up to meet the police with a black eye or scratches and claims 'oh yeah.. that's just a coincidence.. nothing to do with anything that happened here'.
It's laughable Lookout.
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This is what happens when medics don't do their jobs properly by not taking body temperatures. It's so vital more so when there has been a murder rather than being on a hospital ward when someone is there at the time of death----though it still has to be written down on the hospital report. I worry about this more than anything especially when you have family asking what time they died.
Imagine asking a staff member in hospital what time their relative died and the answer was " I don't know ", wouldn't you question their ability to be in the profession ?
The taking of temperatures at a crime scene can be the difference between guilt and innocence. Just by looking at a corpse isn't practical at all, unless it's been above 6 hours, then another 6 before really stiff. I didn't recognise that in Sheila especially and wouldn't have said she'd been dead for above 3 hours in her photographs. The paleness of her face and limbs would have told me that her death was only in the initial ( first stage ) 1--3 hours. Her parents, because they were older would have had a more quickening effect of RM, which is why it should have been imperative that temperatures were taken.
Lookout, IS it the on scene doctor's job? I'd have thought his only job was to pronounce life extinct. Would not taking a rectal temperature have required moving of the body from its final resting position? I know that can vary, but it's probably a "one rule fits all" direction.
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How could Bamber know in advance, that temperatures would not be taken?
Likewise, how can Bamber know in advance, that he will not obtain any injuries or marks from other adults or furniture, during the course of such exertions?
Similarly, how can Bamber know in advance that a discussion about 'fostering' (which may have meant no more than assistance) would be a catalyst for a mother to kill herself and her children and parents? Which historic cases of mothers carrying out similar acts would have been prominent enough in the public eye in order to give Bamber the idea of 'precedence'.
No wonder successive campaign teams have stuck with the label 'a work of fiction' with regard to the prosecution version of events.
What conversation? No evidence exists of one.
You are right that there was probably a lot of investigating regarding the crime scene & bodies that Bamber would not be aware would take place.
He had insinuated Sheila & put the rifle on her. What more would the police want?
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How could Bamber know in advance, that temperatures would not be taken?
What difference would it have made?
Likewise, how can Bamber know in advance, that he will not obtain any injuries or marks from other adults or furniture, during the course of such exertions?
He was in possession of a loaded firearm!
Similarly, how can Bamber know in advance that a discussion about 'fostering' (which may have meant no more than assistance) would be a catalyst for a mother to kill herself and her children and parents? Which historic cases of mothers carrying out similar acts would have been prominent enough in the public eye in order to give Bamber the idea of 'precedence'.
How do you know such a conversation took place? You're relying on the word of a convicted mass murderer!
No wonder successive campaign teams have stuck with the label 'a work of fiction' with regard to the prosecution version of events.
Seems to me its the supporters who operate on the basis of fiction!
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What conversation? No evidence exists of one.
You are right that there was probably a lot of investigating regarding the crime scene & bodies that Bamber would not be aware would take place.
He had insinuated Sheila & put the rifle on her. What more would the police want?
It is implied by guilters that Bamber used the alleged 'fostering conversation' as a vehicle to explain Sheila's actions ie killings. My point is, how would Bamber have any understanding in advance, that such a conversation (for which no details were given) would be the catalyst for the killings? He doesn't even claim she was angry. Instead, he depicts her as vacant.
The raid team have already cleared Bamber re the placing of the rifle on top of Sheila. It's just that nobody within EP decided that the defence should be given such information. And therefore, nobody in the jury heard such information.
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What difference would it have made?
He was in possession of a loaded firearm!
How do you know such a conversation took place? You're relying on the word of a convicted mass murderer!
Seems to me its the supporters who operate on the basis of fiction!
Your replies indicate you do not understand my posts.
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How would he know in advance that a medical professional would not take temperatures at the scene? How could he know in advance, that a medical professional would not establish times of death for victims, that did not fit with timeline set by his own claims?
How can he ensure that a struggle with Nevill or Sheila (a mother with fingernails, potentially fighting for her children's lives) or that furniture being bumped in to, would not cause him to have visible marks on his own person?
If he can't guarantee that he will not be marked during the killing of five people, in a confined space with furniture, what is his plan B to explain the marks?
He turns up to meet the police with a black eye or scratches and claims 'oh yeah.. that's just a coincidence.. nothing to do with anything that happened here'.
It's laughable Lookout.
Roch, I'm convinced that there are certain things which it would never have occurred to him to think about. It's only with hindsight and MUCH more knowledge of the psychology behind the thinking of those who commit crimes, that we can ask the questions we're asking now.
On top of that, whilst he may have written the script, he had no way of knowing how the victims would play it out. He didn't have that much control, other than in his mind. He didn't bank on his father putting up a fight. It would all have been so much easier if they'd all, other than Sheila died in their beds, like the twins, without moving from them. Sheila, of course, had to be placed as near as dammit, to look as if she'd done it. He got it wrong because neither she -nor any other loving mother- would have chosen to die apart from the children they'd killed, in favour of a person who'd given them grief most of their life.
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It is implied by guilters that Bamber used the alleged 'fostering conversation' as a vehicle to explain Sheila's actions ie killings. My point is, how would Bamber have any understanding in advance, that such a conversation (for which no details were given) would be the catalyst for the killings? He doesn't even claim she was angry. Instead, he depicts her as vacant.
The raid team have already cleared Bamber re the placing of the rifle on top of Sheila. It's just that nobody within EP decided that the defence should be given such information. And therefore, nobody in the jury heard such information.
But there's only Bamber's word for it that such a conversation ever happened. It's just as likely that it was a part of a fictional back story to explain why she 'committed the crime'.
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Excerpts from the Dickinson report were uploaded the other day confirming it was not part of police surgeons' role at the time to take temps.
It should have been known that to have taken the temperature of Sheila as she was would have eliminated anyone else with any involvement. It was a crime scene for goodness sake.
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Your replies indicate you do not understand my posts.
Your posts indicate to me you do not understand the case or the weight of evidence against Bamber!
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Roch, I'm convinced that there are certain things which it would never have occurred to him to think about. It's only with hindsight and MUCH more knowledge of the psychology behind the thinking of those who commit crimes, that we can ask the questions we're asking now.
On top of that, whilst he may have written the script, he had no way of knowing how the victims would play it out. He didn't have that much control, other than in his mind. He didn't bank on his father putting up a fight. It would all have been so much easier if they'd all, other than Sheila died in their beds, like the twins, without moving from them. Sheila, of course, had to be placed as near as dammit, to look as if she'd done it. He got it wrong because neither she -nor any other loving mother- would have chosen to die apart from the children they'd killed, in favour of a person who'd given them grief most of their life.
What do you mean by this?
What trouble had Jeremy given Sheila and the twins prior to the killings?
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But there's only Bamber's word for it that such a conversation ever happened. It's just as likely that it was a part of a fictional back story to explain why she 'committed the crime'.
Sorry Jane, but you are also not understanding my post. How would Bamber know that depicting a mother as being vacant during an alleged dinner table conversation in which 'fostering', was mentioned, would be deemed as being sufficient to explain Sheila going on a rampage and killing the household?
What well known precedents were there in similar historic cases, that would provide Bamber with that idea? And if he chose to use this as a vehicle to explain that nights' events, why does he not describe Sheila as enraged or angry or emotional?
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Your posts indicate to me you do not understand the case or the weight of evidence against Bamber!
That's a bit cheeky. Roch has been posting regularly on this Forum since 2011. You are new here.
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It should have been known that to have taken the temperature of Sheila as she was would have eliminated anyone else with any involvement. It was a crime scene for goodness sake.
Where there has been a crime resulting in death, the importance of having temperatures taken is imperative in also convicting the assailant.
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Where there has been a crime resulting in death, the importance of having temperatures taken is imperative in also convicting the assailant.
Because SJ had suspected JB from day one, the above could have been solved. I wonder if SJ knew that Sheila hadn't been dead for hours ? I remain suspicious of lots of things.
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That's a bit cheeky. Roch has been posting regularly on this Forum since 2011. You are new here.
Might be cheeky but it's true. Granted he's not in the relegation zone like Lookout and JackieD.
I spent some 18 months reading the case material before I started posting here. Most just join and spout.
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Sorry Jane, but you are also not understanding my post. How would Bamber know that depicting a mother as being vacant during an alleged dinner table conversation in which 'fostering', was mentioned, would be deemed as being sufficient to explain Sheila going on a rampage and killing the household?
What well known precedents were there in similar historic cases, that would provide Bamber with that idea? And if he chose to use this as a vehicle to explain that nights' events, why does he not describe Sheila as enraged or angry or emotional?
Given how little in depth knowledge he appeared to have of her condition, I doubt he'd have gone looking for "precedents". You're applying what's common-place today, with what wasn't possible back then..............even if he'd believed it important to do.
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Where there has been a crime resulting in death, the importance of having temperatures taken is imperative in also convicting the assailant.
The responsibility for this was with the police surgeon. You would think that as it was a suspected murder-suicide, checking the body temperature at scene would be a fundamental step. Body temperature cannot necessarily be relied on, as there are other factors, but at least it gives a precise benchmark.
Something similar happened in the Gilfoyle case. The police surgeon in attendance did not check the body temperature, instead he relied on visible deduction and effectively he and the pathologist made an educated guess about the rough time of death.
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What do you mean by this?
What trouble had Jeremy given Sheila and the twins prior to the killings?
Where does it indicate that I'm implying such?
Okay. Just had a re-read. I said "the person" -in this case, being her mother- assuming it would be recognized to whom I referred.
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Might be cheeky but it's true. Granted he's not in the relegation zone like Lookout and JackieD.
I spent some 18 months reading the case material before I started posting here. Most just join and spout.
JackieD and Lookout may stay up on goal difference. I expect you'll be competing in the Champions' League soon. I think Adam should be promoted to the Premiership. He's languished for too long in the lower divisions.
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Where does it indicate that I'm implying such?
In the very sentence I quoted, and you weren't implying it, you were stating it explicitly.
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It is implied by guilters that Bamber used the alleged 'fostering conversation' as a vehicle to explain Sheila's actions ie killings. My point is, how would Bamber have any understanding in advance, that such a conversation (for which no details were given) would be the catalyst for the killings? He doesn't even claim she was angry. Instead, he depicts her as vacant.
The raid team have already cleared Bamber re the placing of the rifle on top of Sheila. It's just that nobody within EP decided that the defence should be given such information. And therefore, nobody in the jury heard such information.
Would not need any understanding that a mother being threatened to have her children fostered would have a negative effect.
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JackieD and Lookout may stay up on goal difference. I expect you'll be competing in the Champions' League soon. I think Adam should be promoted to the Premiership. He's languished for too long in the lower divisions.
You got put out of business. By the legal system & then NGB.
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You got put out of business. By the legal system & then NGB.
I wasn't put out of business by the legal system or NGB1066. No idea what you are talking about.
You are a troll, spammer and a liar. That is fact.
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I spent some 18 months reading the case material before I started posting here.
Not strictly true though, tbf.
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Not strictly true though, tbf.
This is what she said on joining:
Hi. I joined earlier in the year having watched the ITV series. Recently watched the Sky doc and thought I would throw in my two-penneth from time-to-time!
Open to interpretation.
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I wasn't put out of business by the legal system or NGB1066. No idea what you are talking about.
You are a troll, spammer and a liar. That is fact.
I post on one forum.
You are the one continually trolling me . Talking about & calling me names.
Grow up unless you really are 12 years old.
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This is what she said on joining:
Open to interpretation.
I can translate, though I have no desire to persecute CC on here. I suppose I will just have to try and adjust my responses to her and be less abrasive.
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You got put out of business. By the legal system & then NGB.
You are such a snide Adam !
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You are such a snide Adam !
Just responding to QC posting about me in reply 32.
Keep up.
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Just responding to QC posting about me in reply 32.
Keep up.
There's NO need to be personal in your remarks. Look to yourself.
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I post on one forum.
You are the one continually trolling me . Talking about & calling me names.
Grow up unless you really are 12 years old.
I'm dishing out to you what you have been dishing out here for years, with apparently impunity. You cruelly mocked Mike for years with your snide and nasty 'Thanks Mike' jibe, but now I give you the same treatment, you don't like it and you loudly object and bring the moderator into it.
You have also been repeatedly snide towards me, so I now respond in kind and again, you don't like it.
Jane and others mention nothing about all this history and act as if you are a bone fide poster, when you are clearly not. On your own admission, you lied about your reasons for joining and your stance.
Come on, you don't fool me, even if you have fooled others here who should know better.
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I can translate, though I have no desire to persecute CC on here. I suppose I will just have to try and adjust my responses to her and be less abrasive.
You have nothing to be sorry about. I was slow-on-the-uptake and didn't realise what she was.
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Where does it indicate that I'm implying such?
Okay. Just had a re-read. I said "the person" -in this case, being her mother- assuming it would be recognized to whom I referred.
I agree that if Sheila did this, it looks a little odd that she killed herself in the main bedroom, as opposed to the twins' room, but I wouldn't say that point is fatal to Jeremy's position. It could be that she wasn't thinking much about that at the time and maybe she was ashamed of what she had done. Her body was also found some distance away from June, on the other side of the bed.
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I'm dishing out to you what you have been dishing out here for years, with apparently impunity. You cruelly mocked Mike for years with your snide and nasty 'Thanks Mike' jibe, but now I give you the same treatment, you don't like it and you loudly object and bring the moderator into it.
You have also been repeatedly snide towards me, so I now respond in kind and again, you don't like it.
Jane and others mention nothing about all this history and act as if you are a bone fide poster, when you are clearly not. On your own admission, you lied about your reasons for joining and your stance.
Come on, you don't fool me, even if you have fooled others here who should know better.
If I had been dishing it out before you arrived, what's it got to do with you?
Not sure why you feel you have to troll me due to whatever it is you think I did before you arrived.
Every poster on here can recieve or dish it out. Most would prefer to discuss the case.
And if you don't like me dissecting your long posts, don't post them.
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My last 'Thanks Mike' was Feb 2020. Prior to that it was 2018!
I thanked Mike as he said he was going to do things.
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If I had been dishing it out before you arrived, what's it got to do with you?
Not sure why you feel you have to troll me due to whatever it is you think I did before you arrived.
Every poster on here can recieve or dish it out. Most would prefer to discuss the case.
And if you don't like me dissecting your long posts, don't post them.
Oh, come on! I was targeted on here from the moment I began posting. Everybody here knows that. Please stop this charade.
I don't mind having my posts dissected at all, and I welcome anybody pointing out where I have gone wrong. That's implied in debate and discussion. It's a separate issue. Your attempts to conflate it and brand me a 'cry baby' are completely transparent.
With some posters on here, it's a pleasure to interact with them. With you, and one or two others, it's not. Instead, it's unpleasant. Anybody would think I was the killer at White House Farm, the way some people carry on. One or two have promoted themselves to unofficial advocates for people caught up in it and act like I am insulting them personally, just for having a different opinion. It's absurd and ridiculous, all of it.
I love how I am accused of being 'personal' by people who clearly take the case personally and seem to have made it their whole lives!
Everybody here knows what I am talking about. I need not elaborate further.
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Nevill's eleven words meant everybody at WHF was in danger. Mother, father, nephews & Sheila.
Maybe Bamber should have gone over. Three of Nevill's 11 words after spending a long time waiting for Bamber to answer the phone were -'Please come over'.
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Nevill's eleven words meant everybody at WHF was in danger. Mother, father, nephews & Sheila.
Maybe Bamber should have gone over. Three of Nevill's 11 words after spending a long time waiting for Bamber to answer the phone were -'Please come over'.
You can’t or don’t react to something that’s not true Adam. He probably didn’t even want to attend, he made no suggestion of going, they asked him to meet the Police there. Far better if he kept away at this stage, it would mean less play acting for him and less questioning on the scene for him.
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You can’t or don’t react to something that’s not true Adam. He probably didn’t even want to attend, he made no suggestion of going, they asked him to meet the Police there. Far better if he kept away at this stage, it would mean less play acting for him and less questioning on the scene for him.
He could have said nothing and waited while morning, but he would have become number one suspect straight away, far better if he invents the phone call from his Father and can distance himself from the crime scene. It’s one of the decisions he had to make, it was the best one because it nearly worked.
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He could have said nothing and waited while morning, but he would have become number one suspect straight away, far better if he invents the phone call from his Father and can distance himself from the crime scene. It’s one of the decisions he had to make, it was the best one because it nearly worked.
If he is guilty and invents the call from Nevil surely he would have dialed 999? This is his best course of action in my view?
He became flustered and unsure, maybe he thought if he went straight over he would be one of the first victims if Sheila is in meltdown?
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If he is guilty and invents the call from Nevil surely he would have dialed 999? This is his best course of action in my view?
He became flustered and unsure, maybe he thought if he went straight over he would be one of the first victims if Sheila is in meltdown?
I think it will always be debatable the 999 call Rob and one can interpret different scenarios from it. I think this was the first thing that the police officers would have had red flags about? Bews asked him this straight away!
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3132.0;attach=38125
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If he is guilty and invents the call from Nevil surely he would have dialed 999? This is his best course of action in my view?
He became flustered and unsure, maybe he thought if he went straight over he would be one of the first victims if Sheila is in meltdown?
So that's why Nevill rang him & said 'please come over'.
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Nevill saying 'please come over' means one or all of the following -
He wanted Bamber to come over within the next 10 minutes.
Nevill had already rang the police.
He did not want to ring the police. As he 'wanted to keep family matters private'. This is what Bamber told the police.
He did not want to ring the police as he felt the two of them could restrain Sheila.
He did not want to ring the police as he felt himself & June could control or negate the situation until/before Bamber arrived.
Nevill had already got help from the Foakes who were a few yards away, but also wanted Bamber there.
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What did Bamber do? He did not 'come over' & he 'rang the police'.
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Nevill does contradict the 'please come over' a bit afterwards saying 'Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'. Before putting the phone down.
Poor Jeremy just wanted a good nights sleep but didn't know if he was in Goldhanger or Tim buck two. So rang Julie & looked for the number of the sixth furthest away police station.
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There is nothing on the OS about any of Bamber's 3 calls that night/morning to Julie.
In police interviews he said 'no comment' regarding the 3am call.
The 10pm call he was very evasive about, eventually saying Julie was right & he had been on a tractor that day.
If he had not testified, there would have been 36 years of silence. On three very important calls.
In court he said he rang Julie to 'hear a friendly voice' - at 3am!
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It wouldn't have entered JB's head that a non-999 call would look suspicious. It's all in the minds of those who say he's guilty.
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There are always other ways of looking at a person's psych. and not only one-tracked either.
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It wouldn't have entered JB's head that a non-999 call would look suspicious. It's all in the minds of those who say he's guilty.
It just shows he did not know what to do, if he invented the call from Nevil surely he would just dial 999?
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It just shows he did not know what to do, if he invented the call from Nevil surely he would just dial 999?
Guilters try to get round that point by arguing that he wanted to delay the authorities. But I've never understood why he would want to delay the arrival of the police at the scene, even if he did it. They try to say that he would have been worried about the bodies looking like they had been shot much earlier that morning, but I'm really not sure he would have appreciated that, assuming it would have made any difference at all.
An additional complication is the need to factor in the staging or fabrication of a call from Nevill, which makes it even more of a stretch.
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It just shows he did not know what to do, if he invented the call from Nevil surely he would just dial 999?
Exactly Rob.
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Guilters try to get round that point by arguing that he wanted to delay the authorities. But I've never understood why he would want to delay the arrival of the police at the scene, even if he did it. They try to say that he would have been worried about the bodies looking like they had been shot much earlier that morning, but I'm really not sure he would have appreciated that, assuming it would have made any difference at all.
An additional complication is the need to factor in the staging or fabrication of a call from Nevill, which makes it even more of a stretch.
To delay and to give him more chance of getting picked up by the police.
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Guilters try to get round that point by arguing that he wanted to delay the authorities. But I've never understood why he would want to delay the arrival of the police at the scene, even if he did it. They try to say that he would have been worried about the bodies looking like they had been shot much earlier that morning, but I'm really not sure he would have appreciated that, assuming it would have made any difference at all.
An additional complication is the need to factor in the staging or fabrication of a call from Nevill, which makes it even more of a stretch.
Not sure what this means.
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Bamber's eventual reason for not dialling 999 -
He did not think it would make any difference in how quickly the police arrived.
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Looking up the number for the sixth furthest away police station sure isn't going to make things quicker.
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Guilters try to get round that point by arguing that he wanted to delay the authorities. But I've never understood why he would want to delay the arrival of the police at the scene, even if he did it. They try to say that he would have been worried about the bodies looking like they had been shot much earlier that morning, but I'm really not sure he would have appreciated that, assuming it would have made any difference at all.
An additional complication is the need to factor in the staging or fabrication of a call from Nevill, which makes it even more of a stretch.
Either way QC the time difference between Police responding to a 999 and calling them direct would not be much 10 minutes max? so like you I don't see the argument for JB wanting to delay.
JB was not to know that the Police investigation would be so shambolic, he must have expected he would at least be a main suspect? as there was only two possible suspects anyway.
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How would he know in advance that a medical professional would not take temperatures at the scene? How could he know in advance, that a medical professional would not establish times of death for victims, that did not fit with timeline set by his own claims?
How can he ensure that a struggle with Nevill or Sheila (a mother with fingernails, potentially fighting for her children's lives) or that furniture being bumped in to, would not cause him to have visible marks on his own person?
If he can't guarantee that he will not be marked during the killing of five people, in a confined space with furniture, what is his plan B to explain the marks?
He turns up to meet the police with a black eye or scratches and claims 'oh yeah.. that's just a coincidence.. nothing to do with anything that happened here'.
It's laughable Lookout.
He was evidently trying to delay entry, hence the Sheila shooting practice story. The twins would be the easiest to kill and serve the additional purpose of testing the murder weapon. After one bullet each to Nicholas and Daniel he returned to finish the job with the arc pattern. Similarly with June the last fatal shot right between the eyes ensured her demise. Nevill was the main threat so more head shots. Sheila was led like a lamb to the slaughter to the master bedroom, not the twins room, a giveaway as to who the real perpetrator of this massacre was.
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Bamber's eventual reason for not dialling 999 -
He did not think it would make any difference in how quickly the police arrived.
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Looking up the number for the sixth furthest away police station sure isn't going to make things quicker.
Lets assume he is guilty Adam why not if the Nevil call is a fabrication just dial 999?
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Either way QC the time difference between Police responding to a 999 and calling them direct would not be much 10 minutes max? so like you I don't see the argument for JB wanting to delay.
JB was not to know that the Police investigation would be so shambolic, he must have expected he would at least be a main suspect? as there was only two possible suspects anyway.
I believe the onus is on guilters to explain why Jeremy would want to delay the police. I have never seen a plausible explanation and I can only think of one: which is that Sheila was the killer, not Jeremy, but Jeremy would be happy to see all the family dead, so delayed the police as much as he could for that reason.
I have also never seen any guilter explain how Jeremy could have impeded police at the scene. Was Bews taking orders from Jeremy?
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I believe the onus is on guilters to explain why Jeremy would want to delay the police. I have never seen a plausible explanation and I can only think of one: which is that Sheila was the killer, not Jeremy, but Jeremy would be happy to see all the family dead, so delayed the police as much as he could for that reason.
I have also never seen any guilter explain how Jeremy could have impeded police at the scene. Was Bews taking orders from Jeremy?
The police were his alibi. Not that he particularly wished to delay entry, but the longer the siege lasted the less suspicion would be thrown on the perpetrator, who also was priming them at every opportunity in what to expect within.
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The police were his alibi. Not that he particularly wished to delay entry, but the longer the siege lasted the less suspicion would be thrown on the perpetrator, who also was priming them at every opportunity in what to expect within.
But this so-called alibi rests on convincing the police that Sheila is still alive and moving around the farmhouse. This in turn depends on Jeremy being present while the police are there, so the question still stands: how and why would his delay in mobilising the police and arriving at the farmhouse improve his situation?
Surely, if this was his plan, his interest is in making sure he is at the farmhouse before the police arrive, so that he can be certain they don't just barge into the main kitchen? How could he be sure the police wouldn't just do that?
People also say that he drove slowly to the farmhouse because he needed time to think, but I thought he'd already planned the whole thing? And anyway, it depends on what he needed time to think about.
And if he planned all this, why didn't he ring 999? If asked why his father hadn't done so, he could always explain that his father would want to keep the authorities away from the incident.
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Either way QC the time difference between Police responding to a 999 and calling them direct would not be much 10 minutes max? so like you I don't see the argument for JB wanting to delay.
JB was not to know that the Police investigation would be so shambolic, he must have expected he would at least be a main suspect? as there was only two possible suspects anyway.
To be quite honest Rob, I don't think it would have crossed JB's mind that he would become a suspect.
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Either way QC the time difference between Police responding to a 999 and calling them direct would not be much 10 minutes max? so like you I don't see the argument for JB wanting to delay.
JB was not to know that the Police investigation would be so shambolic, he must have expected he would at least be a main suspect? as there was only two possible suspects anyway.
Rob, were you a good boy at school, or did you stray into realms of bad behaviour? If you did -and I'm not suggesting REAL naughtiness, because it's all relative- can you remember how it felt when the time came to explain yourself/try to get yourself out of trouble? Did you face up to it immediately, or did you string it out for as long as possible to give yourself some extra time?
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I believe the onus is on guilters to explain why Jeremy would want to delay the police. I have never seen a plausible explanation and I can only think of one: which is that Sheila was the killer, not Jeremy, but Jeremy would be happy to see all the family dead, so delayed the police as much as he could for that reason.
I have also never seen any guilter explain how Jeremy could have impeded police at the scene. Was Bews taking orders from Jeremy?
Creating a siege situation is a good move by Bamber. Not hard to do. Just mention Nevill's call, guns & say Sheila is a 'looney' & knows how to use them. But that takes time.
Bamber is simultaneously being helpful. Drawing WHF diagrams etc.
No movement or noise means everyone expects the worst upon entry - Sheila with a rifle on top of her.
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Rob, were you a good boy at school, or did you stray into realms of bad behaviour? If you did -and I'm not suggesting REAL naughtiness, because it's all relative- can you remember how it felt when the time came to explain yourself/try to get yourself out of trouble? Did you face up to it immediately, or did you string it out for as long as possible to give yourself some extra time?
I don't follow. We're talking about somebody who has - supposedly - carried out the planned killing of his entire family in cold blood, including two young boys. This isn't naughtiness. This is, I keep being assured, a premeditated act.
Plus, the delay you talk about is entirely contrived by Jeremy's accusers. We don't know when exactly he received the call and then made outward calls. I once considered this in detail and concluded it was something like ten or so minutes. Given that the call from his father was not an emergency call, as such, and it was unclear to him what was actually happening, he may well have dithered, called his girlfriend, etc.
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Creating a siege situation is a good move by Bamber. Not hard to do. Just mention Nevill's call, guns & say Sheila is a 'looney' & knows how to use them. But that takes time.
Bamber is simultaneously being helpful. Drawing WHF diagrams etc.
No movement or noise means everyone expects the worst upon entry - Sheila with a rifle on top of her.
Why did they wait four hours then?
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Rob, were you a good boy at school, or did you stray into realms of bad behaviour? If you did -and I'm not suggesting REAL naughtiness, because it's all relative- can you remember how it felt when the time came to explain yourself/try to get yourself out of trouble? Did you face up to it immediately, or did you string it out for as long as possible to give yourself some extra time?
No I was never in trouble at school Jane, though at primary school I used to hide a chess board under the table that's as bad as I got.
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No I was never in trouble at school Jane, though at primary school I used to hide a chess board under the table that's as bad as I got.
Then, unless you can empathize with it, you'll have no idea why JB delayed his every action.
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I don't follow. We're talking about somebody who has - supposedly - carried out the planned killing of his entire family in cold blood, including two young boys. This isn't naughtiness. This is, I keep being assured, a premeditated act.
Plus, the delay you talk about is entirely contrived by Jeremy's accusers. We don't know when exactly he received the call and then made outward calls. I once considered this in detail and concluded it was something like ten or so minutes. Given that the call from his father was not an emergency call, as such, and it was unclear to him what was actually happening, he may well have dithered, called his girlfriend, etc.
IF
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IF
Your point? I'm talking about the delay ascribed to Jeremy by people like you.
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Why did they wait four hours then?
No idea.
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Then, unless you can empathize with it, you'll have no idea why JB delayed his every action.
I see what you are saying, but he is committing a crime with only two possible suspects. Yet at every turn he appears to take the worst course of action.
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Your point? I'm talking about the delay ascribed to Jeremy by people like you.
You were talking about the call from Mr Bamber to Bamber as legit when its anything but!
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No idea.
The fire arms team arrived at 5.00am Collins wanted to go in earlier with one team, Adams overruled him because of the size of the farmhouse and outer buildings and containment, so back up was sent for and they went in at 7.30am
I’ve seen a total of 12 armed officers before on a siege and not a fraction the size of WHF.
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I see what you are saying, but he is committing a crime with only two possible suspects. Yet at every turn he appears to take the worst course of action.
I'm just glad they didn't find that advert of his in the local paper, Rob. That would have been the clincher.
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You were talking about the call from Mr Bamber to Bamber as legit when its anything but!
No, I wasn't. You just haven't understood the context of the post.
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No idea.
Maybe because Bews situation report said movement in house?
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No I was never in trouble at school Jane, though at primary school I used to hide a chess board under the table that's as bad as I got.
What at that age, I’m not playing you I bet your a Grandmaster you need a challenge from NGB I’m afraid.
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I see what you are saying, but he is committing a crime with only two possible suspects. Yet at every turn he appears to take the worst course of action.
Rob, as far as I know, there aren't separate feelings for degrees of crime, just the discomfort of a faster than usual heartbeat until the offender can be certain of having got away with it.
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I'm just glad they didn't find that advert of his in the local paper, Rob. That would have been the clincher.
Yes that was QC's idea Cc, JB might as well done would have saved everyone waiting around all night.
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The fire arms team arrived at 5.00am Collins wanted to go in earlier with one team, Adams overruled him because of the size of the farmhouse and outer buildings and containment, so back up was sent for and they went in at 7.30am
I’ve seen a total of 12 armed officers before on a siege and not a fraction the size of WHF.
To not hear or see Sheila for 4 hours does say she was dead on police arrival.
Although the CT have since claimed the police 'were in conversation' with Sheila, their were '2 bodies in the kitchen' & a '999' call was made from WHF.
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I see what you are saying, but he is committing a crime with only two possible suspects. Yet at every turn he appears to take the worst course of action.
Did he though, he nearly got away with it Rob?
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I'd have sued the lot of them wasting over 3 hours outside when there could have been a chance that someone might have been saved. I think it's a disgrace. What were they all doing ?
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Rob, as far as I know, there aren't separate feelings for degrees of crime, just the discomfort of a faster than usual heartbeat until the offender can be certain of having got away with it.
I don't know to be honest I guess it all relative? but this was no ordinary crime it was the work of someone completely deranged in my opinion.
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Did he though, he nearly got away with it Rob?
To answer that, you'd first need to explain to us what the benefit was for Jeremy in delaying everybody.
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I don't know to be honest I guess it all relative? but this was no ordinary crime it was the work of someone completely deranged in my opinion.
I agree.
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I don't know to be honest I guess it all relative? but this was no ordinary crime it was the work of someone completely deranged in my opinion.
Well JB hasn't been found to be deranged, and we're not privy to the details of his -or any other prisoner's- routine psych tests, so we don't know about personality disorders.
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To answer that, you'd first need to explain to us what the benefit was for Jeremy in delaying everybody.
To create a siege situation. Lots of EP outside thinking -
Sheila is alive & a threat to everybody inside. If alive.
Sheila has killed everyone. She is alive or has killed herself.
The more delay, the more this thinking becomes entrenced. It worked on Taff Jones.
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Did he though, he nearly got away with it Rob?
Only because people who thought Sheila could not have done the crime beefed up the evidence against him. Sorry but I 100% believe the silencer was planted though this does not prove innocence I admit.
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To answer that, you'd first need to explain to us what the benefit was for Jeremy in delaying everybody.
Im sorry QC I don’t need to answer to us or anybody anything. Bamber chose the way he went for his reasons, it was suggested he did it for delaying tactics ( that could mean time of death and to compose himself etc and to distance himself from the crime scene), I’m saying it nearly worked by all accounts.
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Only because people who thought Sheila could not have done the crime beefed up the evidence against him. Sorry but I 100% believe the silencer was planted though this does not prove innocence I admit.
Do you believe the police planted the silencer for the relatives to find?
A bit optimistic of the police.
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To create a siege situation. Lots of EP outside thinking -
Sheila is alive & a threat to everybody inside. If alive.
Sheila has killed everyone. She is alive or has killed herself.
The more delay, the more this thinking becomes entrenced. It worked on Taff Jones.
Taff knew JB was innocent Adam, I would love to see all the case notes from the original investigation before it became five murders.
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Im sorry QC I don’t need to answer to us or anybody anything. Bamber chose the way he went for his reasons, it was suggested he did it for delaying tactics ( that could mean time of death and to compose himself etc and to distance himself from the crime scene), I’m saying it nearly worked by all accounts.
The longer the delay, the more distance he puts himself from the crime.
Espescially if the police believe Sheila or other people in WHF could be alive.
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Only because people who thought Sheila could not have done the crime beefed up the evidence against him. Sorry but I 100% believe the silencer was planted though this does not prove innocence I admit.
Well after JM's statements, it was the only thing that got him convicted and even that was contaminated mixed with ammunition and hand swabs.
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Taff knew JB was innocent Adam, I would love to see all the case notes from the original investigation before it became five murders.
What made him know?
Taff had changed stance prior to his death. Although no longer heading the case.
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What made him know?
Taff had changed stance prior to his death. Although no longer heading the case.
Where does it say that ?
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Where does it say that ?
Wilkes's book.
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Do you believe the police planted the silencer for the relatives to find?
A bit optimistic of the police.
When I say planted I am referring more to the blood / paint found on it, I don't really want to name anyone.
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Pretty basic questions from supporters. With straight forward answers -
Why were armed back up called.
Why would Bamber want to delay entry into WHF.
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Pretty basic questions from supporters. With straight forward answers -
Why were armed back up called.
Why would Bamber want to delay entry into WHF.
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Answers -
Because of what Bamber told them.
To distance himself from the massacre.
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Why did they wait over 3 hours outside ??
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Wouldn't you have thought with JB being a violent psychopath that he'd have found a way in to finish off who hadn't been killed ?
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Pretty basic questions from supporters. With straight forward answers -
Why were armed back up called.
Why would Bamber want to delay entry into WHF.
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"Why were armed back up called" They ran before even knocking on the door or looking through a window after seeing nothing? Lets see the situation report Bews made.
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He could easily have gone into the farmhouse on the pretext that he was going to help ? Afterall, he had a key to the new back door.
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He could easily have gone into the farmhouse on the pretext that he was going to help ? Afterall, he had a key to the new back door.
I may be wrong Lookout but the back door had a key in the lock on the inside, so someone outside would not be able to unlock the door?
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Im sorry QC I don’t need to answer to us or anybody anything. Bamber chose the way he went for his reasons, it was suggested he did it for delaying tactics ( that could mean time of death and to compose himself etc and to distance himself from the crime scene), I’m saying it nearly worked by all accounts.
Oddly you attempt an answer of my question after telling me you don't need to answer it. Anyway, I find your reasons unconvincing.
Time of death - If he was waiting for enough time to explain dried blood, how does that tie in with his attempted alibi, in which he tried to persuade the police that Sheila is still alive? The two things stand in contradiction.
To compose himself: I thought he'd planned the whole thing? What do you suggest was the length of the delay he needed to compose himself?
Distance himself from the crime scene - He achieves this by putting himself at the crime scene? How does that make sense?
I'm afraid that, on closer scrutiny, the guilter position on this point is empty.
The case against Jeremy Bamber is a bit like noticing an attractive woman at a distance, only to find on closer view she is not what you initially thought. In other words, the case looks convincing from a distance, but starts to fall apart when you pull at the threads. Sorry.
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Oddly you attempt an answer of my question after telling me you don't need to answer it. Anyway, I find your reasons unconvincing.
Time of death - If he was waiting for enough time to explain dried blood, how does that tie in with his attempted alibi, in which he tried to persuade the police that Sheila is still alive? The two things stand in contradiction.
To compose himself: I thought he'd planned the whole thing? What do you suggest was the length of the delay he needed to compose himself?
Distance himself from the crime scene - He achieves this by putting himself at the crime scene? How does that make sense?
I'm afraid that, on closer scrutiny, the guilter position on this point is empty.
The case against Jeremy Bamber is a bit like noticing an attractive woman at a distance, only to find on closer view she is not what you initially thought. In other words, the case looks convincing from a distance, but starts to fall apart when you pull at the threads. Sorry.
Its not my answer if you read I say it was suggested!
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Its not my answer if you read I say it was suggested!
I appreciate you may find the question difficult to answer.
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I wonder why it should be imagined that just because JB had planned everything, he wouldn't need to compose himself in readiness for his 'scene' with the police. It was imperative for him to get it right, but it was something he could only have rehearsed in his head. He had no idea how it would go in reality. It doesn't matter, as individuals, how long we believe he needed to compose himself. Only he could answer that.
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I appreciate you may find the question difficult to answer.
Nope, no one tells me what to do, especially you.
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To create a siege situation. Lots of EP outside thinking -
Sheila is alive & a threat to everybody inside. If alive.
Sheila has killed everyone. She is alive or has killed herself.
The more delay, the more this thinking becomes entrenced. It worked on Taff Jones.
I don't see the specific link between the need for a delay and a siege situation, sorry. It seems to me that guilters have cornered themselves into this idea that Jeremy was trying to delay everybody, but if Jeremy is the killer and he wanted to be outside the farmhouse with the police, it was enough for Jeremy to give them the desired backstory and then let the police make their own decisions.
In the event, any delay on Jeremy's part was a matter of minutes. He turns up and gives the police his story. The police then draw their own conclusions. From there, Jeremy couldn't know that the police would wait until dawn before raiding the house and he had no say or influence in the decision-making.
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Nope, no one tells me what to do, especially you.
Where have I told you what to do?
You're showing your true colours now, I think. The mask slips quickly, doesn't it? Cry babies indeed.
What is your interest in this case, please?
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I don't see the specific link between the need for a delay and a siege situation, sorry. It seems to me that guilters have cornered themselves into this idea that Jeremy was trying to delay everybody, but if Jeremy is the killer and he wanted to be outside the farmhouse with the police, it was enough for Jeremy to give them the desired backstory and then let the police make their own decisions.
In the event, any delay on Jeremy's part was a matter of minutes. He turns up and gives the police his story. The police then draw their own conclusions. From there, Jeremy couldn't know that the police would wait until dawn before raiding the house and he had no say or influence in the decision-making.
He was very eager for police to go in.
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He was very eager for police to go in.
The only aspect of this where Jeremy (if guilty) may have had a reason to delay is the drive there, as he might have wanted to make sure the police see him arrive. However, wouldn't the police surely assume that Jeremy would not risk making a call from anywhere other than Bourtree Cottage?
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He was very eager for police to go in.
Except that he seemed to find reasons for them to hesitate at each attempt.
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Except that he seemed to find reasons for them to hesitate at each attempt.
Could you explain a bit more about this?
How many attempts were made and how did Jeremy foil each attempt? Thanks.
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I don't see the specific link between the need for a delay and a siege situation, sorry. It seems to me that guilters have cornered themselves into this idea that Jeremy was trying to delay everybody, but if Jeremy is the killer and he wanted to be outside the farmhouse with the police, it was enough for Jeremy to give them the desired backstory and then let the police make their own decisions.
In the event, any delay on Jeremy's part was a matter of minutes. He turns up and gives the police his story. The police then draw their own conclusions. From there, Jeremy couldn't know that the police would wait until dawn before raiding the house and he had no say or influence in the decision-making.
The longer the delay. The more he can insinuate Sheila.
Bamber telling Bews what he did automatically resulted in armed back up. Whether Bamber wants it or not, this creates a long delay.
The police even started shouting through a loud speaker to (a dead) Sheila.
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JB could have sped away from the farmhouse at the point where there was suspicion that someone was alive inside. Surely it would have been in his plan should that have happened ?
Police chases weren't then as they are now with heat-seeking helicopters and such.
This was no planned serial-killing. Leaving someone partially or not dead at all ? What sort of a dumbo does that ?
Why didn't EP allow JB into the farmhouse when he asked to see his father ? You'd do that wouldn't you ?
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Bamber's eventual reason for not dialling 999 -
He did not think it would make any difference in how quickly the police arrived.
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Looking up the number for the sixth furthest away police station sure isn't going to make things quicker.
We’ve mentioned this 6th furthest away police station before - you state it frequently as if he got out a map and looked at all the police stations before selecting the 6th furthest one then calling that.
However - Robert Boutflour in his diary entry for August 30th says that “local people know that Witham is closed from 2am to 6am” this is in response to it being suggested that Jeremy called Witham and didn’t get a response. If it’s correct that Jeremy did call Witham and didn’t get a response then he didn’t call the 6th furthest away Police station first.
If he didn’t call Witham because as a local he knew they would be closed then he only called the 6th furthest away police station if you also count the closed ones or ones he believed would be closed (making it pointless calling them!)
If Witham was closed at this time it’s a fairly safe assumption Tiptree would be too being a small village, easy to prove at the time, very difficult now! But given that D’Arcy falls under Witham’s area at the time (West’s court testimony said he looked this up and Witham policed the area) it suggests the larger area one.
In the pre-internet days it’s also highly likely that he looked the number up in the phone book or Yellow pages. This would have all the police stations grouped together under the heading of Police and then the numbers for each in alphabetical order, if all the local stations the first two would be Braintree and Chelmsford. Technically Braintree is closer, however the drive is likely to at best take the same amount of time as Chelmsford it’s also likely to be closed at that time. So he in fact called the first police station likely to be open, close to him in alphabetical order in the phone book…
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We’ve mentioned this 6th furthest away police station before - you state it frequently as if he got out a map and looked at all the police stations before selecting the 6th furthest one then calling that.
However - Robert Boutflour in his diary entry for August 30th says that “local people know that Witham is closed from 2am to 6am” this is in response to it being suggested that Jeremy called Witham and didn’t get a response. If it’s correct that Jeremy did call Witham and didn’t get a response then he didn’t call the 6th furthest away Police station first.
If he didn’t call Witham because as a local he knew they would be closed then he only called the 6th furthest away police station if you also count the closed ones or ones he believed would be closed (making it pointless calling them!)
If Witham was closed at this time it’s a fairly safe assumption Tiptree would be too being a small village, easy to prove at the time, very difficult now! But given that D’Arcy falls under Witham’s area at the time (West’s court testimony said he looked this up and Witham policed the area) it suggests the larger area one.
In the pre-internet days it’s also highly likely that he looked the number up in the phone book or Yellow pages. This would have all the police stations grouped together under the heading of Police and then the numbers for each in alphabetical order, if all the local stations the first two would be Braintree and Chelmsford. Technically Braintree is closer, however the drive is likely to at best take the same amount of time as Chelmsford it’s also likely to be closed at that time. So he in fact called the first police station likely to be open, close to him in alphabetical order in the phone book…
I thought Witham was open, West contacted Witham so it was looks like it was open? Still far better to call 999 in an emergency though rather than phone your girlfriend first and get her out of bed?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1103.0;attach=5593
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6845.0;attach=41408
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5816.0;attach=37735
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My own personal take on the fact that JB drove slowly was that he must have felt scared at what the prospect might be. Because police hadn't, to my knowledge ever been involved in any incidents at WHF, he realised that there must be something more serious than trying to calm Sheila down.
I don't think I'd have been in any hurry at the thought of what I could be facing.
If JB had sped there it too would have appeared suspicious-----to show his eagerness ( putting it on ) if you see what I'm getting at. Either way, he couldn't win in that respect, though how he did drive wasn't relevant to the case along with all the other foibles that he was supposed to have had.
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My own personal take on the fact that JB drove slowly was that he must have felt scared at what the prospect might be. Because police hadn't, to my knowledge ever been involved in any incidents at WHF, he realised that there must be something more serious than trying to calm Sheila down.
I don't think I'd have been in any hurry at the thought of what I could be facing.
If JB had sped there it too would have appeared suspicious-----to show his eagerness ( putting it on ) if you see what I'm getting at. Either way, he couldn't win in that respect, though how he did drive wasn't relevant to the case along with all the other foibles that he was supposed to have had.
Would not the alleged call from Nevill, at silly o'clock, have suggested such? Had not JB called the police, at one moment telling them his father "sounded terrified"? They were hardly going to send out the local bobby on his push bike to sort out the problem, were they. JB must have realized this. He wouldn't have asked for a lift on a push-bike. However, I absolutely believe you to be 100% correct in your suggestion that he was driving slowly to delay his arrival to give him time to compose himself and go over his story and how he was going to tell it. I imagine he may have been sweating with fear.
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Would not the alleged call from Nevill, at silly o'clock, have suggested such? Had not JB called the police, at one moment telling them his father "sounded terrified"? They were hardly going to send out the local bobby on his push bike to sort out the problem, were they. JB must have realized this. He wouldn't have asked for a lift on a push-bike. However, I absolutely believe you to be 100% correct in your suggestion that he was driving slowly to delay his arrival to give him time to compose himself and go over his story and how he was going to tell it. I imagine he may have been sweating with fear.
In JB's world, nothing urgent ever happened so he wouldn't have been in any hurry. He'd seen it before with Sheila's " meltdowns " and in his mind thought his father would manage. It probably wasn't until Nevill's call sunk in that he then realised that for the first time his father was in trouble.
After all, it wasn't every day that such a call was made. By the time things had sunk in he tried ringing WHF back to see what was going on but the phone was engaged----which would have been his father quickly ring for the police.
Unfortunately JB hadn't known about the severity of Sheila's last diagnosis after her stay at the clinic in March of that year or he would have been more prepared for the worst. He would have driven with caution while his thoughts dulled his full concentration, as there'd be all kinds of things going through his mind.
My thoughts were that at 24 he wasn't your average mature adult " man of the world and streetwise " so things beyond his mainly sheltered and cosy background were alien in that he now had to deal with things in the real world. Only for his father's teachings he'd have crumbled as Nevill was a strong man in mind and body and would have taught JB how to deal with things in certain situations.
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What was your view before you suddenly decided Bamber was innocent?
I inferred the call didn't take place, erroneously believing the silencer was on the gun.
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I inferred the call didn't take place, erroneously believing the silencer was on the gun.
Do you not believe Bamber would attempt a silent massacre with a silencer attached?
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Do you not believe Bamber would attempt a silent massacre with a silencer attached?
Not that a silencer makes any difference to a low velocity rifle in any case, no massacre is ever silent.
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In JB's world, nothing urgent ever happened so he wouldn't have been in any hurry. He'd seen it before with Sheila's " meltdowns " and in his mind thought his father would manage. It probably wasn't until Nevill's call sunk in that he then realised that for the first time his father was in trouble.
After all, it wasn't every day that such a call was made. By the time things had sunk in he tried ringing WHF back to see what was going on but the phone was engaged----which would have been his father quickly ring for the police.
Unfortunately JB hadn't known about the severity of Sheila's last diagnosis after her stay at the clinic in March of that year or he would have been more prepared for the worst. He would have driven with caution while his thoughts dulled his full concentration, as there'd be all kinds of things going through his mind.
My thoughts were that at 24 he wasn't your average mature adult " man of the world and streetwise " so things beyond his mainly sheltered and cosy background were alien in that he now had to deal with things in the real world. Only for his father's teachings he'd have crumbled as Nevill was a strong man in mind and body and would have taught JB how to deal with things in certain situations.
Sadly, Lookout, the life JB led, entirely belies all you believe it to have been. Had he gone straight from school to farm and never left, I'd have agreed 100%. Under such circumstances, he wouldn't have been able to function without Nevill's direction. As it was, he was unable to function without Nevill's financial back-up, something he was assured of, and took maximum advantage of, wherever, in the world he travelled. He travelled to put as much space as possible, for as long a time as possible, between him and a future he'd become partially resigned to if he wanted to hit the jack-pot, and had managed, more than adequately.
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Sadly, Lookout, the life JB led, entirely belies all you believe it to have been. Had he gone straight from school to farm and never left, I'd have agreed 100%. Under such circumstances, he wouldn't have been able to function without Nevill's direction. As it was, he was unable to function without Nevill's financial back-up, something he was assured of, and took maximum advantage of, wherever, in the world he travelled. He travelled to put as much space as possible, for as long a time as possible, between him and a future he'd become partially resigned to if he wanted to hit the jack-pot, and had managed, more than adequately.
He didn't " hit any jackpot" Jane ;D Far from it ,as that was well squirreled away and pre-organised before he had time to think.
In-laws of mine were business people and I knew how they ticked when pa-in-law died. Yes, there was much sorrow, but it was soon overtaken by " who'd get what " which I remember at the time being sickened by.
Different circumstances to the Bamber's of course, but the same lack of sentiments that JB's extended family showed. Money/ properties soon took over and rows etc within the family ensued. However that was in the 60's, but it seems that some things don't change.
JB travelled because he was financially able to do so with the help of his parents and why not ? Something else that I saw no relevancy to in this case. JB was in well-paid employment too so that was no big deal either. Like many, he'd wanted to see the world and he had the opportunity to go. It was no crime but must have, or did, get up the nose's of the extended family as the private schooling had done too. Why ? It wasn't their money that was being spent.
I believe JB did farmwork in Oz/ NZ for his accommodation and keep----no posh hotels or motels. Travel broadens the mind and outlook on life and it would have been a treat to break away from the stifled, regimented way of home-life----nothing wrong with that for one so young at the time. I bet his parents encouraged it if the truth be known, I know I would.
There are certain aspects of this case where jealousy raised its ugly head and I've read a lot of it !
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Oddly you attempt an answer of my question after telling me you don't need to answer it. Anyway, I find your reasons unconvincing.
Time of death - If he was waiting for enough time to explain dried blood, how does that tie in with his attempted alibi, in which he tried to persuade the police that Sheila is still alive? The two things stand in contradiction.
To compose himself: I thought he'd planned the whole thing? What do you suggest was the length of the delay he needed to compose himself?
Distance himself from the crime scene - He achieves this by putting himself at the crime scene? How does that make sense?
I'm afraid that, on closer scrutiny, the guilter position on this point is empty.
The case against Jeremy Bamber is a bit like noticing an attractive woman at a distance, only to find on closer view she is not what you initially thought. In other words, the case looks convincing from a distance, but starts to fall apart when you pull at the threads. Sorry.
1. Any lies coming from his mouth implying sister is still alive puts him in the clear. Why would he not embellish, especially following the trick of the light?
2.To compose himself: remember the "I should have been an actor" remark to Julie at Bourtree Cottage several hours later? He set the scene and played his part.
3. He gambled that a police alibi would have been far more watertight than him sheepishly turning up at White House Farm and hearing the news from Len Foakes.
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Not that a silencer makes any difference to a low velocity rifle in any case, no massacre is ever silent.
Doubtful Bamber knew that at the time. Although decades later has claimed there is not much difference.
An apparent small difference in noise will make a big difference in a silent massacre attempt. And make Bamber more confident.
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Do you not believe Bamber would attempt a silent massacre with a silencer attached?
Whats the point of a silencer Adam when Sheila is being carried kicking and screaming from her bedroom to JB's bedroom?
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Doubtful Bamber knew that at the time. Although decades later has claimed there is not much difference.
An apparent small difference in noise will make a big difference in a silent massacre attempt. And make Bamber more confident.
JB would have known about silencers and their uses etc. from his father, at the beginning of his association with them.
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Doubtful Bamber knew that at the time. Although decades later has claimed there is not much difference.
An apparent small difference in noise will make a big difference in a silent massacre attempt. And make Bamber more confident.
The silencer was to prevent rabbits/animals taking flight before the bullet arrives, which is why from a human's point of view and depending on bullet type can make little difference.
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Whats the point of a silencer Adam when Sheila is being carried kicking and screaming from her bedroom to JB's bedroom?
It was a silent massacre attempt.
As said, Sheila could have been shot first, last, got up during the kitchen fight, put up no resistance or minimal resistance.
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The silencer was to prevent rabbits/animals taking flight before the bullet arrives, which is why from a human's point of view and depending on bullet type can make little difference.
'Little difference' is better than 'no difference'.
The paint and blood evidence shows the silencer was used.
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Don't believe there is anything in the court transcript from the defence about the rifle sound with/without silencer.
Bamber brought it up decades later I believe.
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'Little difference' is better than 'no difference'.
The paint and blood evidence shows the silencer was used.
"Little difference' is better than 'no difference" True but the silencer would make the rifle very hard to handle at close quarters.
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the silencer would make the rifle very hard to handle at close quarters.
I don't think I have ever seen that suggested. Well done.
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"Little difference' is better than 'no difference" True but the silencer would make the rifle very hard to handle at close quarters.
Why?
The intention was to point the rifle at sleeping people and fire.
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It was a silent massacre attempt.
As said, Sheila could have been shot first, last, got up during the kitchen fight, put up no resistance or minimal resistance.
So they all talked in whispers as they were being shot ? " Silent Massacre ?"
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So they all talked in whispers as they were being shot ? " Silent Massacre ?"
They were asleep when being shot.
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They were asleep when being shot.
Only the children were asleep, thankfully, hopefully. Then again, none of us know that do we so how can you be so sure ?