Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on November 15, 2021, 11:22:AM
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Bear in mind, the dialling and waiting for Bamber to answer would take several minutes.
Sheila was obviously doing something very dangerous during these minutes, as Nevill only said 11 words to Bamber before putting the phone down when he did eventually answer.
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Sorry the poll is not very clear. Here are the options -
Sitting quietly in the kitchen. With rifle.
Sitting quietly in another downstairs room. With rifle.
Upstairs but not shooting. With rifle.
Walking around downstairs. With rifle.
Running around downstairs. With rifle.
Standing in the kitchen. With rifle.
Upstairs and shooting.
Downstairs re loading after shooting upstairs
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It depends what time this took place as CC said yesterday that everyone had been dead all night as per pathologist ?
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It depends what time this took place as CC said yesterday that everyone had been dead all night as per pathologist ?
Why does it depend what time it was?
You believe Nevill called Bamber around 3am. The call would take several minutes.
What do you believe Sheila was doing during these minutes?
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Nevill had left Sheila to do what she wanted during these minutes. He remained in one place, waiting for Bamber to answer the phone.
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It depends what time this took place as CC said yesterday that everyone had been dead all night as per pathologist ?
if you mean Dr Craig he wasn’t a Pathologist and a time couldn’t be put to the deaths.
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Either Sheila was no threat during these minutes. Therefore Nevill would reclaim his rifle. So no reason to stay on the phone waiting for Bamber to answer.
Or Sheila was a threat. Therefore Nevill would abort his call to Bamber before he answered to deal with the threat.
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Two massive contradictions in Nevill's call -
He felt comfortable enough to spend several minutes phoning & waiting for an answer.
When Nevill did get an answer he could only speak for 5 seconds.
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Supporters claim Sheila only started 'going crazy' at the exact same time Bamber answered the phone. Which is a massive coincidence. If that was the case why didn't Nevill reclaim the rifle when Sheila was calm?
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I can remember a few years ago that those on the red forum were convinced that everyone was dead either before midnight or just after----so I'll leave it at that seeing as they always seem to be right, though how phone-calls were made after 3am, I don't know. :o
This is how barmy things have arrived at. ::)
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I can remember a few years ago that those on the red forum were convinced that everyone was dead either before midnight or just after----so I'll leave it at that seeing as they always seem to be right, though how phone-calls were made after 3am, I don't know. :o
This is how barmy things have arrived at. ::)
It doesn’t matter what those on Red think, they’ve got their own views, there’s only one person alive that knows the time of death and he’s safely locked up behind bars.
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It doesn’t matter what those on Red think, they’ve got their own views, there’s only one person alive that knows the time of death and he’s safely locked up behind bars.
Not for long hopefully and lets hope the people who lied giving evidence are behind bars with very long sentences.
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I can remember a few years ago that those on the red forum were convinced that everyone was dead either before midnight or just after----so I'll leave it at that seeing as they always seem to be right, though how phone-calls were made after 3am, I don't know. :o
This is how barmy things have arrived at. ::)
What has Red got to do with anything?
You believe Nevill phoned Bamber around 3am. This process would have lasted several minutes.
What was Sheila doing for these few minutes?
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This should be an easy question for Rob & Lookout.
Both believe Nevill called Chelmsford Police Station. Which would have been another long call.
Goodness knows what Sheila was doing in the 11/21 minutes between Nevill's call to Bamber & then the police.
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A " long call ? Get real, the poor man would have had a rifle in his ear ::)
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A " long call ? Get real, the poor man would have had a rifle in his ear ::)
You believe Sheila told Nevill to phone Bamber and was holding the rifle 'in his ear'?
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Nevill's call to Chelmsford Police would be long.
He would have to give his name, address & describe what was happening. Allowing time for the police to write notes.
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Goodness knows what Sheila was doing during the 11/21 minutes between Nevill's call to Bamber & then Chelmsford Police.
His first call to Bamber only lasted 5 seconds!
This is really a question for Rob & Lookout.
QC's scenario does not have Nevill calling the police. JackieD just focuses on Julie.
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I'm just being as ridiculous as you are.
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You've gone out of your way to patronise this forum with your nonsensical posts so that's all the answers you'll be getting from me from now on !!
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You've gone out of your way to patronise this forum with your nonsensical posts so that's all the answers you'll be getting from me from now on !!
You & Rob need to give answers to both periods. What was Sheila doing -
While Nevill phoned Bamber.
The 11/21 minute gap between Nevill's call to Bamber & Chelmsford Police.
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To be fair you have answered the first one. Sheila was holding a rifle in Nevill's ear.
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All guilters need to answer the first question.
Nevill had decided to call Bamber. The call would have taken several minutes. What was Sheila doing during this time period?
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All guilters need to answer the first question.
Nevill had decided to call Bamber. The call would have taken several minutes. What was Sheila doing during this time period?
Didn’t Rob say she was shooting the boys one bullet each for the twins and then one bullet for June but shooting Nevill was an accident?
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All guilters need to answer the first question.
Nevill had decided to call Bamber. The call would have taken several minutes seconds. What was Sheila doing during this time period?
Going berserk.
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Going berserk.
Please elaborate.
It would have taken several seconds to dial Bambers number. Then several minutes waiting for Bamber to -
Awaken from the downstairs ringing phone. While sleeping 'like a log'.
Realise the phone was ringing.
Check the time.
Decide whether to ignore the call or answer.
Get out of bed & put on footwear/dressing gown.
Go downstairs and answer.
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Didn’t Rob say she was shooting the boys one bullet each for the twins and then one bullet for June but shooting Nevill was an accident?
Nevill was on the phone waiting for Bamber to answer while this was happening?
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Please elaborate.
It would have taken several seconds to dial Bambers number. Then several minutes waiting for Bamber to -
Awaken from the downstairs ringing phone. While sleeping 'like a log'.
Realise the phone was ringing.
Check the time.
Decide whether to ignore the call or answer.
Get out of bed & put on footwear/dressing gown.
Go downstairs and answer.
It's not possible to know exactly how things played out. If could see the full contents of the original SC file, it might help a bit.
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All guilters need to answer the first question.
Nevill had decided to call Bamber. The call would have taken several minutes. What was Sheila doing during this time period?
Could she have spent her last few minutes with the boys before shooting them, but I suppose this means Nevill just let her wonder off in a rage with the rifle upstairs?
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Could she have spent her last few minutes with the boys before shooting them, but I suppose this means Nevill just let her wonder off in a rage with the rifle upstairs?
Nevill would never let her wander off, armed or not, yet we have the fact that, if we accept Jeremy's defence, Nevill has to make a phone call to Jeremy at some point. This can only mean that Sheila was with Nevill or close by when Nevill made the call. There is also the uncontested fact that the boys were asleep when shot. I think the facts default to her not spending time with them.
I believe my scenario stands. I do not say Jeremy is innocent, but in broad terms, it is the only plausible alternate scenario if Jeremy is innocent.
In response to Adam's poll, I say Sheila was standing in the kitchen, opposite Nevill, with the rifle, as Nevill made his call to Jeremy. When Jeremy answers, she runs out of the kitchen and Nevill follows her, terminating his call with Jeremy.
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All guilters need to answer the first question.
Nevill had decided to call Bamber. The call would have taken several minutes. What was Sheila doing during this time period?
Bamber said she was going crazy so this could mean she’s shouting and screaming, but when you add the fact he said she’s got the gun this is more life threatening and he wouldn’t want to let her venture out of sight?
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Nevill would never let her wander off, armed or not, yet we have the fact that, if we accept Jeremy's defence, Nevill has to make a phone call to Jeremy at some point. This can only mean that Sheila was with Nevill or close by when Nevill made the call. There is also the uncontested fact that the boys were asleep when shot. I think the facts default to her not spending time with them.
I believe my scenario stands. I do not say Jeremy is innocent, but in broad terms, it is the only plausible alternate scenario if Jeremy is innocent.
In response to Adam's poll, I say Sheila was standing in the kitchen, opposite Nevill, with the rifle, as Nevill made his call to Jeremy. When Jeremy answers, she runs out of the kitchen and Nevill follows her, terminating his call with Jeremy.
Im giving different scenarios that’s all, I’ve addressed the fact Nevill wouldn’t let her venture out of sight thanks.
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Bamber said she was going crazy so this could mean she’s shouting and screaming, but when you add the fact he said she’s got the gun this is more life threatening and he wouldn’t want to let her venture out of sight?
Could it be Nevill didn’t realise the rifle was left loaded, not realising Bamber had primed it? His natural thought would be, well she doesn’t know how to load it and use it anyway?
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Could it be Nevill didn’t realise the rifle was left loaded, not realising Bamber had primed it? His natural thought would be, well she doesn’t know how to load it and use it anyway?
It was always said Nevill wouldn’t leave a loaded rifle/gun about the house? I don’t think Nevill would use the term Gun by the way.
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It's not possible to know exactly how things played out. If could see the full contents of the original SC file, it might help a bit.
I agree we cannot know exactly what happened, but we can look at the evidence and make logical inferences.
My scenario addresses perfectly what would happen at both ends of the call, if Jeremy is innocent.
Nevill is using the phone call to Jeremy to stall Sheila. Whether it was wise of him to do so is another matter and not important to the validity of the scenario.
Jeremy eventually awakens to the phone ringing, but understandably won't remember much about it. As soon as he answers, Sheila runs upstairs and Nevill follows her, terminating the call.
Jeremy claims what he claims about what Nevill said to him, but I don't consider it reliable because, if he is telling the truth, he was woken in the early hours of the morning and we can't expect reliability under those circumstances. He will have been confused and will have fumbled about for some minutes while deciding what to do. If he is innocent, then he is simply telling himself what he thinks he heard, which is not necessarily what he heard but what he has convinced himself of what he heard, which may have been influenced by subsequent events.
If, on the other hand, Jeremy is guilty and has invented a phone call (as opposed to staging one - a different thing), then he has taken a very fundamental risk because he was not a telecoms engineer or employed in that field, so would not know for sure whether there would be a traceable record of a call at the exchange, and he had no ready means to research and ascertain the position without running the risk of creating a witness or paper trail.
If, instead, he staged the call in the belief that some sort of record of calls may be held at the exchange, then he has the problem of how to get back to Bourtree Cottage within a set time limit without being seen. If he is seen, by anyone, at any point, it's over (the exception being that if he is seen immediately outside the Cottage, he can explain that away).
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Could it be Nevill didn’t realise the rifle was left loaded, not realising Bamber had primed it? His natural thought would be, well she doesn’t know how to load it and use it anyway?
This is a good point. He wouldn't know.
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This is a good point. He wouldn't know.
And I think he would still go after her if she made for the stairs, even if he assumed the rifle wasn't loaded or primed.
But I doubt he would make such an assumption.
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Apologies for the further post, but it also occurs to me that in the stand-off in the kitchen, Nevill may have been feigning a call to the police or 999.
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It was always said Nevill wouldn’t leave a loaded rifle/gun about the house? I don’t think Nevill would use the term Gun by the way.
Weren't guns found all over the house?
As for using the term 'gun', as explained, I don't believe we can rely on what Jeremy reports of what Nevill said to him, even if he is telling the truth and did receive that call. You can't hold him to a specific form of words. It was the early hours of the morning.
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And I think he would still go after her if she made for the stairs, even if he assumed the rifle wasn't loaded or primed.
But I doubt he would make such an assumption.
If I’m right, the bullet box was next or near to the telephone, so in his eyes she can’t load it, he probably thinks he’s in control at this stage not realising it was loaded already? I know it’s a long shot, but I’m trying to offer some thoughtful scenario’s?
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If I’m right, the bullet box was next or near to the telephone, so in his eyes she can’t load it, he probably thinks he’s in control at this stage not realising it was loaded already? I know it’s a long shot, but I’m trying to offer some thoughtful scenario’s?
Yes, I think that could be. Maybe a bit of arrogance or complacency entered his head? She is a woman, small and slight. She is mentally-ill. He just thinks that she won't do much damage. I have speculated along these lines before. I also recall Lookout has mentioned a lot on here about how women like that can sometimes surprise men and catch them off-guard, and I find that is true. Also, remember that it's his daughter, so she has a psychological advantage over him.
Of course, it's worth emphasising that here I assume Sheila is the killer, but should not be taken to mean I think she was. It's just exploration of a scenario, as you say. The phone call has to fit in to this for Jeremy to be innocent, and in my view that allows for only one possibility: that Sheila is with him when he makes the call. I can't make the scenario work otherwise.
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If I’m right, the bullet box was next or near to the telephone, so in his eyes she can’t load it, he probably thinks he’s in control at this stage not realising it was loaded already? I know it’s a long shot, but I’m trying to offer some thoughtful scenario’s?
Having said that, if Nevill was in charge of the situation he wouldn’t need to phone anyone?
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Having said that, if Nevill was in charge of the situation he wouldn’t need to phone anyone?
Yes. In my view, the only way it can work is if he is using the phone call as a ruse - a sort of stalling tactic - and he feigns a 999 call or he tells her that he is ringing Jeremy, then when Jeremy comes on the phone and he mentions she has gone crazy with the gun (or something along those lines), she runs.
Jeremy would take time to answer the phone, which explains why he doesn't remember hearing anything other than his father's voice, as by that stage Sheila has maybe calmed down a bit, but Nevill then terminates the call to follow her upstairs.
That's the best I can do.
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Yes, I think that could be. Maybe a bit of arrogance or complacency entered his head? She is a woman, small and slight. She is mentally-ill. He just thinks that she won't do much damage. I have speculated along these lines before. I also recall Lookout has mentioned a lot on here about how women like that can sometimes surprise men and catch them off-guard, and I find that is true. Also, remember that it's his daughter, so she has a psychological advantage over him.
Of course, it's worth emphasising that here I assume Sheila is the killer, but should not be taken to mean I think she was. It's just exploration of a scenario, as you say. The phone call has to fit in to this for Jeremy to be innocent, and in my view that allows for only one possibility: that Sheila is with him when he makes the call. I can't make the scenario work otherwise.
I agree, it’s an interesting topic and worth debate, we’re often accused (not you in particular) of not looking at it from the other side, so here we are.
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Weren't guns found all over the house?
As for using the term 'gun', as explained, I don't believe we can rely on what Jeremy reports of what Nevill said to him, even if he is telling the truth and did receive that call. You can't hold him to a specific form of words. It was the early hours of the morning.
Yes, it could be just Jeremy’s casual way of putting it?
Without checking again I can’t remember where each rifle was located.
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I agree, it’s an interesting topic and worth debate, we’re often accused (not you in particular) of not looking at it from the other side, so here we are.
Thinking about it, I don't think Jeremy could have heard Nevill say what he claims he heard. It could have been something completely different and Jeremy has re-constructed the call in his head in light of what subsequently happened.
I find it more plausible that Nevill said something like: "Jeremy, come over will you, your sister's with me now and she's upset and I just need a hand..."
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Yes, it could be just Jeremy’s casual way of putting it?
Not quite. If Jeremy is innocent, then my suspicion is that he couldn't remember what Nevill said other than that it was imperative he come over, and he then decided that he needed to tell the police what was said with some certainty, so he has made the wording up, perhaps believing that what he claims was said must approximate to what was actually said, given what subsequently happened. Am I making sense here?
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Thinking about it, I don't think Jeremy could have heard Nevill say what he claims he heard. It could have been something completely different and Jeremy has re-constructed the call in his head in light of what subsequently happened.
I find it more plausible that Nevill said something like: "Jeremy, come over will you, your sister's with me now and she's upset and I just need a hand..."
I don’t know QC he’s quite specific about the gun in his statement, he then goes into the fact where he’s left it and if it’s loaded? Maybe this is troubling him the fact he left it loaded and he subconsciously thinks gun?
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Not quite. If Jeremy is innocent, then my suspicion is that he couldn't remember what Nevill said other than that it was imperative he come over, and he then decided that he needed to tell the police what was said with some certainty, so he has made the wording up, perhaps believing that what he claims was said must approximate to what was actually said, given what subsequently happened. Am I making sense here?
Oh sorry I mean his casual way of referring to it as a Gun instead of a rifle? I think we’re at cross threads?
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Not quite. If Jeremy is innocent, then my suspicion is that he couldn't remember what Nevill said other than that it was imperative he come over, and he then decided that he needed to tell the police what was said with some certainty, so he has made the wording up, perhaps believing that what he claims was said must approximate to what was actually said, given what subsequently happened. Am I making sense here?
Yes you are making sense, that’s why I said he subconsciously could have thought Gun, because he thought shit I’ve left the Gun out and loaded?
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I don’t know QC he’s quite specific about the gun in his statement, he then goes into the fact where he’s left it and if it’s loaded? Maybe this is troubling him the fact he left it loaded and he subconsciously thinks gun?
Yes, you're right, that the gun was fundamental to it, so the gun must have been mentioned in the call, but looking at this from a neutral standpoint, I honestly don't believe you can rely on what he says about the phone call or read too much into the semantics of 'gun' and 'rifle', etc. He may have thought that he would look stupid if he just said, 'Sorry, can't remember exactly what my father said, I only know that he mentioned Sheila carrying on and I think he mentioned the rifle'.
It's not a point that is intended to help or hinder him. It's just what I think is a realistic view of it.
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Yes you are making sense, that’s why I said he subconsciously could have thought Gun, because he thought shit I’ve left the Gun out and loaded?
Yes, good point. If he is innocent, his subconscious is at work and he is also influenced by what subsequently happened, and also the need to look convincing to the police. Innocent people do also get confused and even lie.
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Yes, you're right, that the gun was fundamental to it, so the gun must have been mentioned in the call, but looking at this from a neutral standpoint, I honestly don't believe you can rely on what he says about the phone call or read too much into the semantics of 'gun' and 'rifle', etc. He may have thought that he would look stupid if he just said, 'Sorry, can't remember exactly what my father said, I only know that he mentioned Sheila carrying on and I think he mentioned the rifle'.
It's not a point that is intended to help or hinder him. It's just what I think is a realistic view of it.
However, within Jeremy's innocent scenario, he did give an account of what was said within the space of a few minutes to PC West. I stand by what I am saying about it, though. I don't think we can rely on what he says about it at all, regardless of what stance you take in the case.
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A point from the other side of this:
Let me ask you, Real Justice, and anybody else interested, a hypothetical question. Let's say you are awoken at 3 a.m. (or whatever time it was) by a phone call. Would you be able to recall word-for-word what was said? Even 10 minutes later, could you recall it?
I have to be honest and say that I think I would struggle and I'm impressed by Jeremy's feat of memory, as well as his ability to bounce out of bed at all hours.
I am sorry to say that Jeremy's ability to recall what Nevill told him with some precision does lend itself to the impression that the call never actually happened and Jeremy was reading from a script when he spoke to PC West and has been reading a script ever since.
I would have found it more plausible if he bluntly admitted that he couldn't remember exactly what was said and what he was reporting was just a representation of the call's theme - i.e. "My dad said Sheila was carrying on, he mentioned a rifle, and told me I needed to come over right away".
But I don't say I know. I draw no firm conclusions. Really, only Jeremy knows if he took that call because there is no independent technological way to corroborate either that he did or didn't. If we're honest, we have to admit that.
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Yes, good point. If he is innocent, his subconscious is at work and he is also influenced by what subsequently happened, and also the need to look convincing to the police. Innocent people do also get confused and even lie.
Yes they go into overdrive and think what to say, this could account for his delay in phoning and why he never called 999, instead of it being a delaying tactic it could have been a damage limitation tactic for the fact he left the rifle out and loaded. Having said that, if he hadn’t mentioned the fact he’d left the rifle out and loaded, would the Police have found this out in the end?
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Yes. In my view, the only way it can work is if he is using the phone call as a ruse - a sort of stalling tactic - and he feigns a 999 call or he tells her that he is ringing Jeremy, then when Jeremy comes on the phone and he mentions she has gone crazy with the gun (or something along those lines), she runs.
Jeremy would take time to answer the phone, which explains why he doesn't remember hearing anything other than his father's voice, as by that stage Sheila has maybe calmed down a bit, but Nevill then terminates the call to follow her upstairs.
That's the best I can do.
You are relying on a lot of maybe's.
If Nevill could spend several minutes ringing Bamber to in some way get a reaction from Sheila, wouldn't it be easier to just take the rifle off her.
Nevill would certainly get a reaction from Sheila if he just says those 11 words to Bamber.
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If Sheila is in a rage with a loaded rifle, not sure how ringing Bamber is a delaying tactic.
Bamber is neither here or there to her at that time.
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You are relying on a lot of maybe's.
If Nevill could spend several minutes ringing Bamber to in some way get a reaction from Sheila, wouldn't it be easier to just take the rifle off her.
Nevill would certainly get a reaction from Sheila if he just says those 11 words to Bamber.
He wasn't ringing Jeremy to get a reaction from her. He was ringing him to stall her and maybe as part of an effort to hand over the gun. He may also have been feigning a 999 call or a call to the police. Or it could be that Sheila was just stood or sat there with the gun and he rang Jeremy during a lull in the drama. I don't know.
What I am fairly sure of is that she must have been present with him for a Sheila scenario to work. As I have said, this or some variation of it is the only plausible alternate scenario I can come up with.
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If Sheila is in a rage with a loaded rifle, not sure how ringing Bamber is a delaying tactic.
Bamber is neither here or there to her at that time.
I have actually covered this, on this thread and when this has been discussed previously. If you would kindly read what people say, you would at least be raising new points and not be repetitively raising the same objections.
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A point from the other side of this:
Let me ask you, Real Justice, and anybody else interested, a hypothetical question. Let's say you are awoken at 3 a.m. (or whatever time it was) by a phone call. Would you be able to recall word-for-word what was said? Even 10 minutes later, could you recall it?
I am sorry to say that Jeremy's ability to recall what Nevill told him with some precision does lend itself to the impression that the call never actually happened and Jeremy was reading from a script when he spoke to PC West and has been reading a script ever since.
I would have found it more plausible if he bluntly admitted that he couldn't remember exactly what was said and what he was reporting was just a representation of the call's theme - i.e. "My dad said Sheila was carrying on, he mentioned a rifle, and told me I needed to come over right away".
But I don't say I know. I draw no firm conclusions. Really, only Jeremy knows if he took that call because there is no independent technological way to corroborate either that he did or didn't. If we're honest, we have to admit that.
I must admit I wouldn’t remember, I would have to question it several times for it to sink in, I’m saying this now though, I don’t know when I was in my early twenties though I think I would be a lot sharper, I’m a light sleeper right from an early age who is used to getting up about 4.30/5.00 am pit time as we call it anyway I’m always awake at this time. It would also depend (you can sense trouble in a voice) on the tone and speed of the voice.
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He wasn't ringing Jeremy to get a reaction from her. He was ringing him to stall her and maybe as part of an effort to hand over the gun. He may also have been feigning a 999 call or a call to the police. Or it could be that Sheila was just stood or sat there with the gun and he rang Jeremy during a lull in the drama. I don't know.
What I am fairly sure of is that she must have been present with him for a Sheila scenario to work. As I have said, this or some variation of it is the only plausible alternate scenario I can come up with.
How would ringing Bamber stall her?
If Nevill wanted the rifle, he would just take it off her.
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I have actually covered this, on this thread and when this has been discussed previously. If you would kindly read what people say, you would at least be raising new points and not be repetitively raising the same objections.
I'm sorry I don't read every post of yours.
Please explain how Nevill ringing Bamber benefits Nevill.
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Yes they go into overdrive and think what to say, this could account for his delay in phoning and why he never called 999, instead of it being a delaying tactic it could have been a damage limitation tactic for the fact he left the rifle out and loaded. Having said that, if he hadn’t mentioned the fact he’d left the rifle out and loaded, would the Police have found this out in the end?
You make good points. In the absence of an explanation from Jeremy, the police would have suspected him, I think, and would have been looking more carefully at things.
If Jeremy is innocent, then he is a very unfortunate man in multiple ways. If he is guilty, his intervention with the phone call to the police could be seen as either necessary or foolish, or a bit of both.
Personally, for me, what makes the case interesting is that we just can't know the truth and I believe we will never know, regardless of the outcome of Jeremy's latest application to the CCRC and any appeal. They may release an innocent man, or they may release a guilty man on the basis of legal doubt - he will always have a question mark hanging over him, even if successful in an appeal.
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I'm sorry I don't read every post of yours.
Please explain how Nevill ringing Bamber benefits Nevill.
It's not that. I don't expect you to read every post of mine. It's more that I don't want to get into repetitive conversations, going over the same basics that I have already covered. You are free to go through my entire posting history and critique and criticise whatever you like. That is your right.
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How would ringing Bamber stall her?
If Nevill wanted the rifle, he would just take it off her.
I agree, but there’s no one else offering different scenario’s, so we’re trying to cover what could have happened in your scenario but not necessarily agreeing with it being a forgone conclusion, let’s try and pick our way through it. It’s definitely a question that has to be answered let’s see if we can come up with a solution.
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Not quite. If Jeremy is innocent, then my suspicion is that he couldn't remember what Nevill said other than that it was imperative he come over, and he then decided that he needed to tell the police what was said with some certainty, so he has made the wording up, perhaps believing that what he claims was said must approximate to what was actually said, given what subsequently happened. Am I making sense here?
It was such an alarming call I think most people would remember what was said QC?
If he was guilty in my view he had only two plausible choices, either do nothing and wait till the morning or just dial 999 pretending Nevil had just called.
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I must admit I wouldn’t remember, I would have to question it several times for it to sink in, I’m saying this now though, I don’t know when I was in my early twenties though I think I would be a lot sharper, I’m a light sleeper right from an early age who is used to getting up about 4.30/5.00 am pit time as we call it anyway I’m always awake at this time. It would also depend (you can sense trouble in a voice) on the tone and speed of the voice.
Yes, I think likewise, when I was younger I was much sharper and would be up at 4 or 4.30 for similar reasons. I used to cycle 60 miles a day to and from a factory in York at one point, just to keep myself fit! I can't quite believe that I did that. I certainly couldn't do that now. I'd collapse if I tried that today.
Jeremy was a presumably fit young farmer. He watched TV that night until late. Etc., etc.
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You make good points. In the absence of an explanation from Jeremy, the police would have suspected him, I think, and would have been looking more carefully at things.
If Jeremy is innocent, then he is a very unfortunate man in multiple ways. If he is guilty, his intervention with the phone call to the police could be seen as either necessary or foolish, or a bit of both.
Personally, for me, what makes the case interesting is that we just can't know the truth and I believe we will never know, regardless of the outcome of Jeremy's latest application to the CCRC and any appeal. They may release an innocent man, or they may release a guilty man on the basis of legal doubt - he will always have a question mark hanging over him, even if successful in an appeal.
Excellent posts and well put. 👍
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How would ringing Bamber stall her?
If Nevill wanted the rifle, he would just take it off her.
I once saw someone do this Adam, a heated argument was going on almost coming to blows and one of the two people went to the phone saying they were calling the police. It worked!
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I agree, but there’s no one else offering different scenario’s, so we’re trying to cover what could have happened in your scenario but not necessarily agreeing with it being a forgone conclusion, let’s try and pick our way through it. It’s definitely a question that has to be answered let’s see if we can come up with a solution.
Nevill was the head of the family, a husband, father & grandfather to the people in the house.
Obviously there was no reason why he would ring Bamber. At 3am.
If Sheila was with Nevill & calm enough to let Nevill make a phone call lasting minutes, Nevill would simply take the rifle back.
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There could be a couple of possibilities in the call, we don’t know the tone of Nevill’s voice, maybe there had been an argument in the kitchen with him and Sheila without the gun, he calls Jeremy to give a hand as she’s being particularly aggressive (could the scratch marks come from here?) he doesn’t want to get June involved as he doesn’t want to risk her being hurt with Sheila in that mood so calls Jeremy whilst there is a stand off. The call is intended to be “can you please come and give me a hand? Your sisters being difficult” And the call starts in that vain, however whilst he’s talking Sheila grabs the gun for the first time and runs off - so his “she’s got a gun” is actually a separate thought/point and exclamation as he puts the phone down to chase her.
Or possibly another possibility is that she had the gun the whole time but he didn’t believe she would do anything with it, he calls Jeremy to help because he’s concerned that if he tries to take the gun off her then it could accidentally go off and injure either him or her, same for not getting June involved but he thinks Jeremy’s extra strength (or ability to negotiate) might work to avoid someone accidentally getting injured. Whilst he’s waiting for Jeremy to answer He and Sheila are still arguing across the kitchen which is why she doesn’t run off till he’s distracted by now speaking to Jeremy on the phone once he answers, when the phone is just ringing he can still focus on talking to Sheila.
Both of these are only suggestions - if the call took place then no one will ever know what really happened it can only be guessed at.
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I agree that Sheila could be holding a rifle and be calm.
Nevill was the one person who could calm her down!
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Yes, I think likewise, when I was younger I was much sharper and would be up at 4 or 4.30 for similar reasons. I used to cycle 60 miles a day to and from a factory in York at one point, just to keep myself fit! I can't quite believe that I did that. I certainly couldn't do that now. I'd collapse if I tried that today.
Jeremy was a presumably fit young farmer. He watched TV that night until late. Etc., etc.
Wow well done you, I’ve just read about Alan Turing and he cycled 60 miles to college and 60 miles back from Southampton to Sherborne on his first day. I think it was a regular commute. He was also a long distance runner and only 11 minutes of Olympic standard.
It wasn’t Rowntree by the way, I think my wife would have cycled that distance to work there. I’ve just recently cycled to Selby and Bridlington, I’m hoping to do York next Spring. I’m sure you’d easily get back into it, have you looked at the trails instead of Road Cycling?
Anyway back to the thread.
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There could be a couple of possibilities in the call, we don’t know the tone of Nevill’s voice, maybe there had been an argument in the kitchen with him and Sheila without the gun, he calls Jeremy to give a hand as she’s being particularly aggressive (could the scratch marks come from here?) he doesn’t want to get June involved as he doesn’t want to risk her being hurt with Sheila in that mood so calls Jeremy whilst there is a stand off. The call is intended to be “can you please come and give me a hand? Your sisters being difficult” And the call starts in that vain, however whilst he’s talking Sheila grabs the gun for the first time and runs off - so his “she’s got a gun” is actually a separate thought/point and exclamation as he puts the phone down to chase her.
Or possibly another possibility is that she had the gun the whole time but he didn’t believe she would do anything with it, he calls Jeremy to help because he’s concerned that if he tries to take the gun off her then it could accidentally go off and injure either him or her, same for not getting June involved but he thinks Jeremy’s extra strength (or ability to negotiate) might work to avoid someone accidentally getting injured. Whilst he’s waiting for Jeremy to answer He and Sheila are still arguing across the kitchen which is why she doesn’t run off till he’s distracted by now speaking to Jeremy on the phone once he answers, when the phone is just ringing he can still focus on talking to Sheila.
Both of these are only suggestions - if the call took place then no one will ever know what really happened it can only be guessed at.
Again lots of 'maybe's'. They are your own self created 'maybe's'.
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Nevill's alledged call to Bamber is certainly the weirdest call ever.
It benefits Nevill in no way, takes several minutes, it's at 3am & Nevill only says 11 words before putting the phone down!
But 'maybe'.....
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Well given that it comes down to two options
1) The call didn’t take place and Jeremy is guilty so none of this happened
Or
2) The call did take place, Jeremy is innocent and no one will ever know for sure what happened
Then surely there will always be maybe’s, it’s a suggestion to answer your question nothing more - I’m sure others can either build on it, point out flaws or just have their own views.
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Wow well done you, I’ve just read about Alan Turing and he cycled 60 miles to college and 60 miles back from Southampton to Sherborne on his first day. I think it was a regular commute. He was also a long distance runner and only 11 minutes of Olympic standard.
It wasn’t Rowntree by the way, I think my wife would have cycled that distance to work there. I’ve just recently cycled to Selby and Bridlington, I’m hoping to do York next Spring. I’m sure you’d easily get back into it, have you looked at the trails instead of Road Cycling?
Anyway back to the thread.
Just to make clear, it was 30 miles each way, not 60 miles. Will try your suggestion. Used to run half-marathons. Now I'd collapse after 5 miles! LOL.
Anyway, as you say, the thread has been interesting. Everybody will come to their own conclusions. For me, trying to test the scenario brings up more questions. It's never-ending.
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Nevill's alledged call to Bamber is certainly the weirdest call ever.
It benefits Nevill in no way, takes several minutes, it's at 3am & Nevill only says 11 words before putting the phone down!
But 'maybe'.....
I don’t know that it doesn’t benefit Nevill - as I was trying to point out there may have been good reasons for the call but the circumstances changed as he made it which is why it was suddenly cut short
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There could be a couple of possibilities in the call, we don’t know the tone of Nevill’s voice, maybe there had been an argument in the kitchen with him and Sheila without the gun, he calls Jeremy to give a hand as she’s being particularly aggressive (could the scratch marks come from here?) he doesn’t want to get June involved as he doesn’t want to risk her being hurt with Sheila in that mood so calls Jeremy whilst there is a stand off. The call is intended to be “can you please come and give me a hand? Your sisters being difficult” And the call starts in that vain, however whilst he’s talking Sheila grabs the gun for the first time and runs off - so his “she’s got a gun” is actually a separate thought/point and exclamation as he puts the phone down to chase her.
Or possibly another possibility is that she had the gun the whole time but he didn’t believe she would do anything with it, he calls Jeremy to help because he’s concerned that if he tries to take the gun off her then it could accidentally go off and injure either him or her, same for not getting June involved but he thinks Jeremy’s extra strength (or ability to negotiate) might work to avoid someone accidentally getting injured. Whilst he’s waiting for Jeremy to answer He and Sheila are still arguing across the kitchen which is why she doesn’t run off till he’s distracted by now speaking to Jeremy on the phone once he answers, when the phone is just ringing he can still focus on talking to Sheila.
Both of these are only suggestions - if the call took place then no one will ever know what really happened it can only be guessed at.
Quite possible, Sheila could have grabbed the Gun at the last minute and Nevill spurts out She’s got the gun, to which he ends the phone call to chase after her. But why phone Jeremy in the first place if he’s managed to disarm her? Maybe he needed an extra pair of hands to manage and keep an eye on her like you say, she’s probably gone overboard to what he can normally deal with on his own.
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Quite possible, Sheila could have grabbed the Gun at the last minute and Nevill spurts out She’s got the gun, to which he ends the phone call to chase after her. But why phone Jeremy in the first place if he’s managed to disarm her? Maybe he needed an extra pair of hands to manage and keep an eye on her like you say, she’s probably gone overboard to what he can normally deal with on his own.
Something I've just remembered: the gun cupboard was not locked and it was not lockable, either.
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Just to make clear, it was 30 miles each way, not 60 miles. Will try your suggestion. Used to run half-marathons. Now I'd collapse after 5 miles! LOL.
Anyway, as you say, the thread has been interesting. Everybody will come to their own conclusions. For me, trying to test the scenario brings up more questions. It's never-ending.
Yes I gathered that but it’s still a good commute. I think once your sporty or have been, you can get back into it. I find the trails more interesting, not only safer but it’s involving map reading and a friendlier ride.
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Something I've just remembered: the gun cupboard was not locked and it was not lockable, either.
Im a bit on the fence on that one QC, without going over it again, I thought the outer door to the office was lockable, but not the actual under stair cupboard?
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Just to make clear, it was 30 miles each way, not 60 miles. Will try your suggestion. Used to run half-marathons. Now I'd collapse after 5 miles! LOL.
Anyway, as you say, the thread has been interesting. Everybody will come to their own conclusions. For me, trying to test the scenario brings up more questions. It's never-ending.
Yes quite a lot of Grey areas that leave an open door and it’s this that makes it such an interesting case.
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Im a bit on the fence on that one QC, without going over it again, I thought the outer door to the office was lockable, but not the actual under stair cupboard?
Ah. OK. We had a thread on this that I started and I think you weren't around at the time, so that point wasn't brought up. If you are correct, that would address the point and it would also help explain why a guilty Jeremy has to say he left the rifle and ammunition out.
However, if the office (den) was locked, how does Jeremy enter the den to leave the silencer in the gun cupboard? Did he have a key?
You could just as well argue that Jeremy did not have a key, so that is why he left everything out in the back hallway/scullery area, for Nevill to collect, per an informal understanding they had. Would Nevill allow Jeremy a key to his private office anyway, notwithstanding the location of the rifle?
Also, I recall witness statements from Robert Boutflour, Jnr. and Anthony Pargeter in which they recount entering the den with no mention of it being locked. Mr Pargeter's statement is particularly relevant because he did so on his own - if you'll recall, it was to retrieve his own rifle. Did June give him a key?
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The thread poll question was what was Sheila doing 'while' Nevill was phoning Bamber. And waiting for an answer. Which would have been a process lasting several minutes.
QC & Lookout believe Sheila was in the kitchen with Nevill. Sheila calm enough to let Nevill phone Bamber.
Lookout believes Sheila was holding the rifle at 'Nevill's ear'. Which suggests Sheila demanded Nevill phone Bamber. Lookout does not say why.
QC believes Nevill phoned Bamber at 3am to 'stall' her. Although it's likely to agitate her more.
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I don't believe the mystery over the phone calls will ever be proven but as discussed in an earlier post the whole of 'Jeremys Plan' relied on the phone calls being untraceable. I have always believed Jeremy to be stupid but really that stupid?
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Ah. OK. We had a thread on this that I started and I think you weren't around at the time, so that point wasn't brought up. If you are correct, that would address the point and it would also help explain why a guilty Jeremy has to say he left the rifle and ammunition out.
However, if the office (den) was locked, how does Jeremy enter the den to leave the silencer in the gun cupboard? Did he have a key?
You could just as well argue that Jeremy did not have a key, so that is why he left everything out in the back hallway/scullery area, for Nevill to collect, per an informal understanding they had. Would Nevill allow Jeremy a key to his private office anyway, notwithstanding the location of the rifle?
Also, I recall witness statements from Robert Boutflour, Jnr. and Anthony Pargeter in which they recount entering the den with no mention of it being locked. Mr Pargeter's statement is particularly relevant because he did so on his own - if you'll recall, it was to retrieve his own rifle. Did June give him a key?
Maybe it’s worth re-visiting again QC just to refresh. I haven’t got time tonight it does take a lot of statements to go through.
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I don't believe the mystery over the phone calls will ever be proven but as discussed in an earlier post the whole of 'Jeremys Plan' relied on the phone calls being untraceable. I have always believed Jeremy to be stupid but really that stupid?
On the other hand, it could be one or both of these:
(i). he just didn't think about it. Bills were not itemised back then, so it may not have occurred to him;
(ii). he didn't plan the killings in any great detail and the phone calls happened because Nevill ended up in the kitchen and, rightly or wrongly, Jeremy decided that this would have to be explained by Nevill using the phone at some point.
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Maybe it’s worth re-visiting again QC just to refresh. I haven’t got time tonight it does take a lot of statements to go through.
I think we’ll leave that one QC 🙈. I’ve just had a dabble with it again and I’m still non the wiser.
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I think we’ll leave that one QC 🙈. I’ve just had a dabble with it again and I’m still non the wiser.
No problem. I enjoyed that. The Forum at its best.
You seem knowledgeable as well on the fitness front. I've let things slip - too much time on here and a certain astronomy forum, plus reading books and chess! Need to take your advice and get fit again.
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No problem. I enjoyed that. The Forum at its best.
You seem knowledgeable as well on the fitness front. I've let things slip - too much time on here and a certain astronomy forum, plus reading books and chess! Need to take your advice and get fit again.
Astronomy and chess QC? what is your favourite opening?
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Astronomy and chess QC? what is your favourite opening?
We have several keen chess players on the forum. Maybe we should organise a tournament!
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No problem. I enjoyed that. The Forum at its best.
You seem knowledgeable as well on the fitness front. I've let things slip - too much time on here and a certain astronomy forum, plus reading books and chess! Need to take your advice and get fit again.
Which Astronomy forum?
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We have several keen chess players on the forum. Maybe we should organise a tournament!
Yes! I used to play a lot, been a while since I used ChessBase.
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The thread poll question was what was Sheila doing 'while' Nevill was phoning Bamber. And waiting for an answer. Which would have been a process lasting several minutes.
QC & Lookout believe Sheila was in the kitchen with Nevill. Sheila calm enough to let Nevill phone Bamber.
Lookout believes Sheila was holding the rifle at 'Nevill's ear'. Which suggests Sheila demanded Nevill phone Bamber. Lookout does not say why.
QC believes Nevill phoned Bamber at 3am to 'stall' her. Although it's likely to agitate her more.
The guilters scenario is full of gaping holes Adam I wish you would also address these? Nevil was not the only one regarding Sheila to call for help when she went into a rage.
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Which Astronomy forum?
I am very keen on Astrophotography, but get very little time doing it due to work, last shot M51.
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I am very keen on Astrophotography, but get very little time doing it due to work, last shot M51.
That is really interesting. I want to get into imaging - I am looking into the right combination of equipment.
Astronomy and chess have frequently been combined interests. They have been for me since school days.
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That is really interesting. I want to get into imaging - I am looking into the right combination of equipment.
Astronomy and chess have frequently been combined interests. They have been for me since school days.
With Astrophotography it's best to decide on your budget and keep to it, as it can be a very expensive hobby. But you can still get fab images from very basic equipment so don't have to spend a fortune.
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The guilters scenario is full of gaping holes Adam I wish you would also address these? Nevil was not the only one regarding Sheila to call for help when she went into a rage.
What holes? My scenario follows and matches the crime scene evidence.
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A point from the other side of this:
Let me ask you, Real Justice, and anybody else interested, a hypothetical question. Let's say you are awoken at 3 a.m. (or whatever time it was) by a phone call. Would you be able to recall word-for-word what was said? Even 10 minutes later, could you recall it?
I have to be honest and say that I think I would struggle and I'm impressed by Jeremy's feat of memory, as well as his ability to bounce out of bed at all hours.
I am sorry to say that Jeremy's ability to recall what Nevill told him with some precision does lend itself to the impression that the call never actually happened and Jeremy was reading from a script when he spoke to PC West and has been reading a script ever since.
I would have found it more plausible if he bluntly admitted that he couldn't remember exactly what was said and what he was reporting was just a representation of the call's theme - i.e. "My dad said Sheila was carrying on, he mentioned a rifle, and told me I needed to come over right away".
But I don't say I know. I draw no firm conclusions. Really, only Jeremy knows if he took that call because there is no independent technological way to corroborate either that he did or didn't. If we're honest, we have to admit that.
Bamber has never claimed his father asked him to come over hence he tried to call back to establish what he wanted him to do.
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No problem. I enjoyed that. The Forum at its best.
You seem knowledgeable as well on the fitness front. I've let things slip - too much time on here and a certain astronomy forum, plus reading books and chess! Need to take your advice and get fit again.
Im sure you can do it QC, I’ve personally never felt better and fitter. It took a while, but you know from experience once you get into exercise and it becomes more than a habit, feeding it becomes pleasurable and rewarding, I’ve been out since 6.30 this morning and got back at 7.45, I’ll be out shortly doing another 22 miles. Astronomy is something I’ve always fancied but never attempted. Chess I play everyday, but not against other players for the time being, I’ve taken time out from that.
Anyway back to the topic, maybe we can pick up on these hobbies on another thread later, I’d love to hear about Astronomy.
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Bamber has never claimed his father asked him to come over hence he tried to call back to establish what he wanted him to do.
From paragraph 7 of the 2002 appeal judgment:
7. The police were first alerted that something out of the ordinary had occurred when they received a telephone call from the appellant. The call was logged at 3.36 a.m. but there was evidence that made clear that it must have been at least 10 minutes earlier. The caller was the appellant and having given his name and address he said:
"You've got to help me. My father has rang me and said "Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun." Then the line went dead."
Source: http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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From paragraph 7 of the 2002 appeal judgment:
Source: http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
Mmm it’s strange really and something I’ve never noticed, in his statement he never mentions it, yet I’ve always thought it and quite sure I’d seen it, I’ve been looking myself, nice find QC.
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Mmm it’s strange really and something I’ve never noticed, in his statement he never mentions it, yet I’ve always thought it and quite sure I’d seen it, I’ve been looking myself, nice find QC.
Arguing over what Nevill may or may not have said to him over the phone is, in my view, a fool's errand - for the reasons given earlier in the thread. He could easily have been lying about it and still be innocent. I see that in his statement given on 7th. August 1985, he gave more of a summary of what was said, which sounds more plausible than how he reported it later. I appreciate that he doesn't say in so many words that his father told him to come over, and it could be that he didn't and this partly caused Jeremy's uncertainty and confusion as to what to do. We'll never know and I doubt Jeremy could even remember what Nevill told him minutes after he took the call - if there was such a call.
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From paragraph 7 of the 2002 appeal judgment:
Source: http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
Why did he try and call back then and not just go straight over as requested?
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Why did he try and call back then and not just go straight over as requested?
Well if that's what he did, I can only assume it is because the call was terminated abruptly, so that would be the natural thing to do, in any event.
But as stated above, arguing about this is a fool's errand, in my view. I doubt even Jeremy himself knows what was said - assuming he took a call at all.
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Arguing over what Nevill may or may not have said to him over the phone is, in my view, a fool's errand - for the reasons given earlier in the thread. He could easily have been lying about it and still be innocent. I see that in his statement given on 7th. August 1985, he gave more of a summary of what was said, which sounds more plausible than how he reported it later. I appreciate that he doesn't say in so many words that his father told him to come over, and it could be that he didn't and this partly caused Jeremy's uncertainty and confusion as to what to do. We'll never know and I doubt Jeremy could even remember minutes after he took the call - if there was such a call.
Have you listened to the Daily Mirror's audio recording of Bamber explaining his actions on the night after he claims he received a telephone call from his father?
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From paragraph 7 of the 2002 appeal judgment:
Source: http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
:) :) :)
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Have you listened to the Daily Mirror's audio recording of Bamber explaining his actions on the night after he claims he received a telephone call from his father?
Yes and I don't believe what Jeremy says about this can be relied on.
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Arguing over what Nevill may or may not have said to him over the phone is, in my view, a fool's errand - for the reasons given earlier in the thread. He could easily have been lying about it and still be innocent. I see that in his statement given on 7th. August 1985, he gave more of a summary of what was said, which sounds more plausible than how he reported it later. I appreciate that he doesn't say in so many words that his father told him to come over, and it could be that he didn't and this partly caused Jeremy's uncertainty and confusion as to what to do. We'll never know and I doubt Jeremy could even remember what Nevill told him minutes after he took the call - if there was such a call.
I agree, it’s a bit like Chinese whispers where things are added after, I think this is what Bamber did after events to either make him look good or for pity.
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Yes and I don't believe what Jeremy says about this can be relied on.
I agree nothing he says can be relied upon but its not what he says its his actions after the phone call and the testimony of independent witnesses.
If Mr Bamber called and said Sheila has gone crazy and has the gun can you come over then there was no reason for him to attempt to call back to see what action his father wanted him to take. And no reason to call Julie Mugford.
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:) :) :)
Using smilies to endorse a post that makes Bamber's claims of a phone call even more unlikely shows how clueless you are :)
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I agree nothing he says can be relied upon but its not what he says its his actions after the phone call and the testimony of independent witnesses.
If Mr Bamber called and said Sheila has gone crazy and has the gun can you come over then there was no reason for him to attempt to call back to see what action his father wanted him to take. And no reason to call Julie Mugford.
Not what I said.
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Not what I said.
Well if you're neutral as you claim it would be the sensible position to take. Lets stop splitting hairs. Do you accept that if Mr Bamber asked his son to come over then there was no reason for Bamber to call back as he claims he did?
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Using smilies to endorse a post that makes Bamber's claims of a phone call even more unlikely shows how clueless you are :)
Yes, even though we can’t believe everything he says, he doesn’t seem to get his own story correct, Re the Julie Mugford morning call, did he ring her before or after he rang the police etc. I get what QC is saying he could have been confused and you don’t take in every word and I agree with him, but I think there is a difference in being asked to come over and not and the word gun mentioned. Maybe he was ashamed and he left out the fact his Father asked him to come over in his first interviews and he didn’t respond Quickly enough. It certainly doesn’t do him any favours though.
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Well if you're neutral as you claim it would be the sensible position to take. Lets stop splitting hairs. Do you accept that if Mr Bamber asked his son to come over then there was no reason for Bamber to call back as he claims he did?
I have to be honest and if I took that call and it ended quickly I would first try and ring back, if after a couple of rings it didn’t get answered and it was engaged, I would assume Dad was calling the Police I’d have got in my car and been there as fast as I could, no question at all.
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I have to be honest and if I took that call and it ended quickly I would first try and ring back, if after a couple of rings it didn’t get answered and it was engaged, I would assume Dad was calling the Police I’d have got in my car and been there as fast as I could, no question at all.
My thoughts too RJ.
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I have to be honest and if I took that call and it ended quickly I would first try and ring back, if after a couple of rings it didn’t get answered and it was engaged, I would assume Dad was calling the Police I’d have got in my car and been there as fast as I could, no question at all.
There's a huge difference between
a) Sheila's gone crazy she's got the gun'
AND
b) Sheila's gone crazy she's got the gun come over'
a) is simply telling someone something and b) is telling someone something AND asking them to take some action. a) justifies a call back and b) doesn't.
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Unfortunately it seems Bamber's interview with The Mirror by way of an audio recording is no longer available. But he clearly stated he attempted to call his father back to ask what action he wanted him to take.
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One million posts later and there is no actual proof of anything. Its hilarious how aggressive posters get when they havent and will never know what really went on, Lets concentrate on the main prosecution witness Mugford and all the missing notes. Then we will have actual proof in writing what went down at the police station and evidence of her being coached. Actual facts
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One million posts later and there is no actual proof of anything. Its hilarious how aggressive posters get when they havent and will never know what really went on, Lets concentrate on the main prosecution witness Mugford and all the missing notes. Then we will have actual proof in writing what went down at the police station and evidence of her being coached. Actual facts
How do you know who knows what?
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Like most people, answering such a call would put the fear of God into you knowing that Sheila had been unpredictable in the past when Nevill's calls for assistance had been needed, so hesitation would be the norm in some while getting their head together to ring back for more information and as RJ pointed out when JB tried to ring back he found the phone engaged which would have been Nevill ringing the police at that time.
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Like most people, answering such a call would put the fear of God into you knowing that Sheila had been unpredictable in the past when Nevill's calls for assistance had been needed, so hesitation would be the norm in some while getting their head together to ring back for more information and as RJ pointed out when JB tried to ring back he found the phone engaged which would have been Nevill ringing the police at that time.
When did Mr Bamber make a call for assistance prior to Bamber's claims of such a call on 7th Aug?
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Facts. I know Mugford is a prolific liar with a long criminal history and as the main prosecution witness who failed to be cross examined sufficiently in the witness box there is a need for every note, statement etc to be scrutinised by the CCRC. With this evidence too hand along with the latest information regarding when the NOTW deal was signed there will be clear evidence if this conviction is unsafe. This case has cost millions and now the commissioners must do the right thing.
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When did Mr Bamber make a call for assistance prior to Bamber's claims of such a call on 7th Aug?
Boring
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Boring
Not as boring as your repetitive attacks on the chief prosection witness.
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When did Mr Bamber make a call for assistance prior to Bamber's claims of such a call on 7th Aug?
I don't know when----dates or times or anything, only that it's been said on the forum. I think even JB himself has mentioned it or someone else on his behalf.
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I don't know when----dates or times or anything, only that it's been said on the forum. I think even JB himself has mentioned it or someone else on his behalf.
I thought you hade improved recently but now you're reverting to type and just flooding the board with rubbish.
Someone saying something on the forum doesn't make it anything like factually correct. If you can't back it up with a statement or such like don't bother or I will start taking screen shots and make a case for a ban. Its unfair on those who produce a source.
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I thought you hade improved recently but now you're reverting to type and just flooding the board with rubbish.
Someone saying something on the forum doesn't make it anything like factually correct. If you can't back it up with a statement or such like don't bother or I will start taking screen shots and make a case for a ban. Its unfair on those who produce a source.
For goodness sake----you're not in the courtroom now ! What's your problem ? A ban for forgetting something ?
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For goodness sake----you're not in the courtroom now ! What's your problem ? A ban for forgetting something ?
What's your objective in flooding the board with unsupported nonsense?
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What's your objective in flooding the board with unsupported nonsense?
I think you're getting confused. It's Adam who floods the forum with his boring repetitive posts which are spaced to make it look a lot.
Do show me where I've " flooded the board ".
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I think you're getting confused. It's Adam who floods the forum with his boring repetitive posts which are spaced to make it look a lot.
Do show me where I've " flooded the board ".
You've made 45k plus posts! You post day in day out without any regard for quality. Its quality that counts not quantity. Going forward can you please check the veracity of what it is you're claiming before you post. Or at the very least pose it as a question rather than a statement of fact. If you're looking for social interaction then may I politely suggest coffee mornings or if you prefer online then forums dedicated to benign subjects such as cooking and gardening. Talking of which I am off to do the latter.
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You post day in day out without any regard for quality.
TBF, there is more to quality than insisting on links being included in every post. Nor is quality assured by an over heavy reliance upon the 2002 appeal. Likewise, quality cannot be assured by constantly going out of your way to give the police and prosecution every benefit of the doubt, every leeway, every excuse, every interpretation benign.
That being said, I'm not saying that every single post you make lacks quality.
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For goodness sake----you're not in the courtroom now ! What's your problem ? A ban for forgetting something ?
Just another weirdo with nothing better to do. So sad obviously has issues
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When did Mr Bamber make a call for assistance prior to Bamber's claims of such a call on 7th Aug?
Lookout has often said Nevill had previously phoned Bamber for assistance with Sheila. Even Bamber has never said this.
I don't know why Lookout makes things up with all her posts.
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You've made 45k plus posts! You post day in day out without any regard for quality. Its quality that counts not quantity. Going forward can you please check the veracity of what it is you're claiming before you post. Or at the very least pose it as a question rather than a statement of fact. If you're looking for social interaction then may I politely suggest coffee mornings or if you prefer online then forums dedicated to benign subjects such as cooking and gardening. Talking of which I am off to do the latter.
Lookout has done nothing to you and I see no excuse for this outburst.
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Lookout has done nothing to you and I see no excuse for this outburst.
Thankyou for that QC.
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TBF, there is more to quality than insisting on links being included in every post. Nor is quality assured by an over heavy reliance upon the 2002 appeal. Likewise, quality cannot be assured by constantly going out of your way to give the police and prosecution every benefit of the doubt, every leeway, every excuse, every interpretation benign.
That being said, I'm not saying that every single post you make lacks quality.
Wrong as per usual.
I go where the evidence takes me eg you can see here where I've relied on the appeal doc but the point actually supports Bamber.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10774.msg501629.html#msg501629
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Lookout has done nothing to you and I see no excuse for this outburst.
I call a spade a spade matey.
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I call a spade a spade matey.
So do I and you haven't heard me yet !!
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So do I and you haven't heard me yet !!
How can anyone not hear you with 45k plus posts 24/7 of nonsensical twaddle. Its like wading through treacle hoping to find some semblance of normality and then reading another idiotic post from the likes of JackieD, QC, Rob, Roch et al.
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How can anyone not hear you with 45k plus posts 24/7 of nonsensical twaddle. Its like wading through treacle hoping to find some semblance of normality and then reading another idiotic post from the likes of JackieD, QC, Rob, Roch et al.
Oh come on CC, your an ace poster and very knowledgeable, your spoiling yourself by getting personal, it doesn’t offend me in the slightest but it does others, I would hate to see you go 👍
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Oh come on CC, your an ace poster and very knowledgeable, your spoiling yourself by getting personal, it doesn’t offend me in the slightest but it does others, I would hate to see you go 👍
Thanks flattery will get you everywhere ;D
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Thanks flattery will get you everywhere ;D
Oh, I don’t want any favours with my posts 😇 I sense the knives coming out that’s all
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How can anyone not hear you with 45k plus posts 24/7 of nonsensical twaddle. Its like wading through treacle hoping to find some semblance of normality and then reading another idiotic post from the likes of JackieD, QC, Rob, Roch et al.
You know what they call people like you ? 45k posts==nearly 10 years, without a ban !
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I call a spade a spade matey.
Good for you, Cambridgecutie! It's about time we had a firm hand on the Forum.
What we need is some good old-fashioned discipline!
If Roch and Rob - the terrible twins - can't up their game, then it's six of the best, I say!
Why should you and Adam be left to do all the legwork? These youngsters need to buck their ideas up.
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How can anyone not hear you with 45k plus posts 24/7 of nonsensical twaddle. Its like wading through treacle hoping to find some semblance of normality and then reading another idiotic post from the likes of JackieD, QC, Rob, Roch et al.
I think the Forum should make you Director of Discipline. This would free up Adam to concentrate on giving moral support via the PM system to people like me who are wavering and need guidance.
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Good for you, Cambridgecutie! It's about time we had a firm hand on the Forum.
What we need is some good old-fashioned discipline!
If Roch and Rob - the terrible twins - can't up their game, then it's six of the best, I say!
Why should you and Adam be left to do all the legwork? These youngsters need to buck their ideas up.
Six of the best QC! maybe just maybe there could be a use for Adams pages and pages of sourced evidence or crap rather!