Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Rob_ on October 29, 2021, 12:07:PM
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Extract of Robert Boutflour statement
Julie does not sound so convinced here that it was JB?
"Monday 9th Dec. 1985
Colin and Jill came for tea having had lunch with Ann and visit to White House in afternoon (Jill is an air stewardess). Colin said that Julie had visited him and explained some of the things she had said in her statement to the police. She was a very frightened girl once she realised that Jeremy was the killer."
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Extract of Robert Boutflour statement
Julie does not sound so convinced here that it was JB?
"Monday 9th Dec. 1985
Colin and Jill came for tea having had lunch with Ann and visit to White House in afternoon (Jill is an air stewardess). Colin said that Julie had visited him and explained some of the things she had said in her statement to the police. She was a very frightened girl once she realised that Jeremy was the killer."
Who was Jill?
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RWB made sure she WAS sure.
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JM had known for over a year that JB was organising a way to kill his family yet did nothing about it !
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So, in effect, she was PAID for being an accessory. I thought crime didn't pay ??
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If someone you knew spoke about murdering the family, including children, would you sit back and ignore it ?
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Who was Jill?
His friend and travelling companion, who also proofread the book.
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His friend and travelling companion, who also proofread the book.
I thought Jill was his lover post Sheila pre Heather?
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I thought Jill was his lover post Sheila pre Heather?
Well I was going off the Acknowledgements in the old book. I do have the new book with the additional chapters, but have temporarily mislaid it. If I recall correctly she was his ladyfriend post-Heather but pre his second marriage to the radio broadcaster.
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Well I was going off the Acknowledgements in the old book. I do have the new book with the additional chapters, but have temporarily mislaid it. If I recall correctly she was his ladyfriend post-Heather but pre his second marriage to the radio broadcaster.
Colin the creep who went on national tv after the verdict to make out he was planning to get back with Sheila
Serial adulterer who got Sheila into nude modelling when she clearly had a life threatening illness.
Dumped his children of at WHF knowing she was suicidal. Was never ever good enough for Sheila and June saw through him straight away
In all Colins interviews he had failed to take ownership of his part in the state of Sheilas health issues but continues to make money off the back of Sheila
It is MY believe he knows Jeremy is innocent
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Colin the creep who went on national tv after the verdict to make out he was planning to get back with Sheila
Serial adulterer who got Sheila into nude modelling when she clearly had a life threatening illness.
Dumped his children of at WHF knowing she was suicidal. Was never ever good enough for Sheila and June saw through him straight away
In all Colins interviews he had failed to take ownership of his part in the state of Sheilas health issues but continues to make money off the back of Sheila
It is MY believe he knows Jeremy is innocent
Another one who suffers memory loss, eh ?
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Colin the creep who went on national tv after the verdict to make out he was planning to get back with Sheila
Serial adulterer who got Sheila into nude modelling when she clearly had a life threatening illness.
Dumped his children of at WHF knowing she was suicidal. Was never ever good enough for Sheila and June saw through him straight away
In all Colins interviews he had failed to take ownership of his part in the state of Sheilas health issues but continues to make money off the back of Sheila
It is MY believe he knows Jeremy is innocent
No he was the individual who suffered the greatest loss in the White House Farm tragedy. If you cannot see this then it's you who is blinkered from reality.
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No he was the individual who suffered the greatest loss in the White House Farm tragedy. If you cannot see this then it's you who is blinkered from reality.
Colins treatment of Sheila was absolutely despicable.
He should NEVER have left his children at WHF when he KNEW Sheila was in a terrible state and suicidal.
WHO would leave there children in a situation like that ???? I don’t know anyone who would leave small children in such a vulnerable situation
Own it Colin don’t make money out of it.
Is there a statement on this forum what Colin was doing that weekend
There was NOTHING in Colins behaviour that showed he was planning to get back with Sheila so don’t go on National TV and lie and don’t go on National TV and say it was impossible for Sheila to be the killer because you would have to be a skilled shooter
Lie after lie after lie
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Colins treatment of Sheila was absolutely despicable.
He should NEVER have left his children at WHF when he KNEW Sheila was in a terrible state and suicidal.
WHO would leave there children in a situation like that ???? I don’t know anyone who would leave small children in such a vulnerable situation
Own it Colin don’t make money out of it.
Is there a statement on this forum what Colin was doing that weekend
There was NOTHING in Colins behaviour that showed he was planning to get back with Sheila so don’t go on National TV and lie and don’t go on National TV and say it was impossible for Sheila to be the killer because you would have to be a skilled shooter
Lie after lie after lie
I don't think Colin and Sheila would have reconciled in the future, but everyone is guessing and doesn't know for sure how events would have transpired. I do feel that Colin was the only man Sheila really loved and if he couldn't live with her then nobody could.
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I don't think Colin and Sheila would have reconciled in the future, but everyone is guessing and doesn't know for sure how events would have transpired. I do feel that Colin was the only man Sheila really loved and if he couldn't live with her then nobody could.
Steve, he had the brass neck to state on national TV that he'd hoped for a reconciliation. He had no intentions with all the females he was knocking off ! Even on his wedding night.
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Steve, he had the brass neck to state on national TV that he'd hoped for a reconciliation. He had no intentions with all the females he was knocking off ! Even on his wedding night.
The wedding night anecdote is unsubstantiated. Sheila was admittedly very difficult to live with, which is why Colin rightly chose to leave the marital home. I might add that none of the Caffells were remotely materialistic in nature, in sharp contrast to the predator who is Jeremy Bamber.
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The wedding night anecdote is unsubstantiated. Sheila was admittedly very difficult to live with, which is why Colin rightly chose to leave the marital home. I might add that none of the Caffells were remotely materialistic in nature, in sharp contrast to the predator who is Jeremy Bamber.
In his book, he'd wished Sheila dead because she leant on him a lot. He got his wish, didn't he ?
I notice he didn't tell anyone that, except probably to Sheila ! That alone would have been on her mind and besides everything else in her life, would definitely have had a bearing on what happened.
This dead beat also left Sheila and the twins during an affair he had. The twins were about 5 months old.
His idea of marriage with the daughter of wealthy parents, was to make sure that there were plenty of babies for Sheila so that he could continue his life-style of womanising, leaving Sheila to look after children. Whenever they went out it was always " someone else " who took Sheila home---never Colin !
The twins and Sheila didn't appear to enjoy any outings in the car ( courtesy of the Bambers ) What DID Colin do to improve their lives ?
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In his book, he'd wished Sheila dead because she leant on him a lot. He got his wish, didn't he ?
I notice he didn't tell anyone that, except probably to Sheila ! That alone would have been on her mind and besides everything else in her life, would definitely have had a bearing on what happened.
This dead beat also left Sheila and the twins during an affair he had. The twins were about 5 months old.
His idea of marriage with the daughter of wealthy parents, was to make sure that there were plenty of babies for Sheila so that he could continue his life-style of womanising, leaving Sheila to look after children. Whenever they went out it was always " someone else " who took Sheila home---never Colin !
The twins and Sheila didn't appear to enjoy any outings in the car ( courtesy of the Bambers ) What DID Colin do to improve their lives ?
An awful lot. He had full care and control those last few months. He took them to the Planetarium, art galleries and the Royal Albert Hall. They visited their aunt in Norway. They planted sunflowers together.
I'm really surprised at you lookout.
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An awful lot. He had full care and control those last few months. He took them to the Planetarium, art galleries and the Royal Albert Hall. They visited their aunt in Norway. They planted sunflowers together.
I'm really surprised at you lookout.
I'm talking about when Sheila was alive.
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I'm talking about when Sheila was alive.
I don't know what you mean. He did all these activities whilst Sheila was alive. It was June whom he expressed imprecatory thoughts towards, not Sheila.
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I don't think Colin and Sheila would have reconciled in the future, but everyone is guessing and doesn't know for sure how events would have transpired. I do feel that Colin was the only man Sheila really loved and if he couldn't live with her then nobody could.
Why did Colin go on National TV and say it ???
Obviously to cover up his massive failings as her husband
Steve you are actually losing your mind to say Colin was the only person Sheila loved
The fact is you have no idea so why make ridiculous comments
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The wedding night anecdote is unsubstantiated. Sheila was admittedly very difficult to live with, which is why Colin rightly chose to leave the marital home. I might add that none of the Caffells were remotely materialistic in nature, in sharp contrast to the predator who is Jeremy Bamber.
The wedding night anecdote is unsubstantiated just like Mugfords claims are unsubstantiated
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Why did Colin go on National TV and say it ???
Obviously to cover up his massive failings as her husband
Steve you are actually losing your mind to say Colin was the only person Sheila loved
The fact is you have no idea so why make ridiculous comments
I think some members are too busy contemplating their own navels to get at the truth. The only people who can really comment on a marriage are the two that are in it. Notwithstanding neither Colin nor Sheila were materialistic, nor did they find suitable partners immediately after the divorce.
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The wedding night anecdote is unsubstantiated just like Mugfords claims are unsubstantiated
Circumstantial evidence is like a rope made up of a number of strands. One strand may not be sufficient to sustain a weight, but sufficient strands working together may do so.
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I think some members are too busy contemplating their own navels to get at the truth. The only people who can really comment on a marriage are the two that are in it. Notwithstanding neither Colin nor Sheila were materialistic, nor did they find suitable partners immediately after the divorce.
Why are you commenting then?
Colin has consistently made money out of the tragedy books, tv appearances
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Circumstantial evidence is like a rope made up of a number of strands. One strand may not be sufficient to sustain a weight, but sufficient strands working together may do so.
Fact Unsubstantiated
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Fact Unsubstantiated
Julie must be so famous in Canada where she lives.
I wonder what friends, colleagues and her children think of her behaviour and the photos of her posing like a Cheshire Cat in her underwear
What an embarrassment
She obviously never took into account the internet would happen 😊😊😊
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Why are you commenting then?
Colin has consistently made money out of the tragedy books, tv appearances
..because your vile attacks on Colin, who suffered the most grievous loss of all the players in this tragedy, will not go unnoticed or unpunished.
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Circumstantial evidence is like a rope made up of a number of strands. One strand may not be sufficient to sustain a weight, but sufficient strands working together may do so.
There is a mountain of 'circumstantial' evidence against Bamber.
He's the only alive suspect!
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There is a mountain of 'circumstantial' evidence against Bamber.
He's the only alive suspect!
I came to this case 10 years ago with an open mind. I found myself jumping over more hurdles than Karsten Warholm. At that point I realized he was guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
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A WEALTH of evidence to prove there was a motive to lie on oath from witnesses including RWB in order to achieve a conviction.
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There is a mountain of 'circumstantial' evidence against Bamber.
He's the only alive suspect!
Glad you used 'circumstantial' and not 'forensic' Adam.
The problem I have is why so much withheld information, exhibits being destroyed, negatives being removed from strips and lost? Statements don't ring true. The provenance of the silencer etc.
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Glad you used 'circumstantial' and not 'forensic' Adam.
The problem I have is why so much withheld information, exhibits being destroyed, negatives being removed from strips and lost? Statements don't ring true. The provenance of the silencer etc.
What Adam describes as a "mountain" amounts to less than a mole hill.
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Glad you used 'circumstantial' and not 'forensic' Adam.
The problem I have is why so much withheld information, exhibits being destroyed, negatives being removed from strips and lost? Statements don't ring true. The provenance of the silencer etc.
Steve's post mentioned 'circumstantial' evidence.
It has been 36 years.
We only have the CT's word that documents have been withheld & destroyed.
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What Adam describes as a "mountain" amounts to less than a mole hill.
It's 74 pieces David. Most from the COA.
What's your 2015 'forensic evidence breakthrough' again? Oh yes, it's a secret.
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It's 74 pieces David. Most from the COA.
What's your 2015 'forensic evidence breakthrough' again? Oh yes, it's a secret.
It's because Jeremy gave Sheila a bible to hold whilst he shot her, and her bloodied palm print remained in situ, ergo she is guilty of four murders.
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What Adam describes as a "mountain" amounts to less than a mole hill.
True David and a small mole hill at that!
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It's because Jeremy gave Sheila a bible to hold whilst he shot her, and her bloodied palm print remained in situ, ergo she is guilty of four murders.
The force of a gunshot to your person would cause you to drop what you were holding, ie, the Bible and also the rifle itself which is why it wasn't found on top of her body, but by the side of her.
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..because your vile attacks on Colin, who suffered the most grievous loss of all the players in this tragedy, will not go unnoticed or unpunished.
I will attack Colin when he lies and does his utmost to keep an innocent man in prison to cover his own failings
The real Steve is coming out now. So now you are threatening me
Can you get any lower
But then you run the Julie Mugford fan club. I don’t need to say anymore
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I will attack Colin when he lies and does his utmost to keep an innocent man in prison to cover his own failings
The real Steve is coming out now. So now you are threatening me
Can you get any lower
But then you run the Julie Mugford fan club. I don’t need to say anymore
I'm not threatening anybody. I have been Julie's harshest critic in my time, for those who care to check. https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5528.0.html
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True David and a small mole hill at that!
Do you not believe the COA is a reliable source?
My 74 pieces do have other sources but the COA is the main one.
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Do you not believe the COA is a reliable source?
My 74 pieces do have other sources but the COA is the main one.
I have looked at them Adam but some of it applies equally to JB as well for example:
"There was no evidence of any other mark or injury to Sheila Caffell's body such as might be suffered during a fight or in a scuffle."
Neither was there any marks on JB, and Nevil would be much more likely to swing at him rather than Sheila. I know you disagree but I don't see signs of a violent fight? Two strong men going at it ??
You said in another post today Sheila would not have put the silencer in the cupboard so who's blood was in it is immaterial or words to that effect, but likewise JB certainly would not have put the silencer in the cupboard!
All the statements are a total mess!
Sheila looks so fresh in the photographs? no sign of lividity, which policeman was it who said her arms and legs looked like marble or something like that? Did she really die at the same time as the others?
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I have looked at them Adam but some of it applies equally to JB as well for example:
"There was no evidence of any other mark or injury to Sheila Caffell's body such as might be suffered during a fight or in a scuffle."
Neither was there any marks on JB, and Nevil would be much more likely to swing at him rather than Sheila. I know you disagree but I don't see signs of a violent fight? Two strong men going at it ??
You said in another post today Sheila would not have put the silencer in the cupboard so who's blood was in it is immaterial or words to that effect, but likewise JB certainly would not have put the silencer in the cupboard!
All the statements are a total mess!
Sheila looks so fresh in the photographs? no sign of lividity, which policeman was it who said her arms and legs looked like marble or something like that? Did she really die at the same time as the others?
There was a massive kitchen fight. Sheila's feet, body and nightdress were not marked.
Bamber would not get marks as he was covered up, wearing shoes & twice as strong as Sheila.
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I have looked at them Adam but some of it applies equally to JB as well for example:
"There was no evidence of any other mark or injury to Sheila Caffell's body such as might be suffered during a fight or in a scuffle."
Neither was there any marks on JB, and Nevil would be much more likely to swing at him rather than Sheila. I know you disagree but I don't see signs of a violent fight? Two strong men going at it ??
You said in another post today Sheila would not have put the silencer in the cupboard so who's blood was in it is immaterial or words to that effect, but likewise JB certainly would not have put the silencer in the cupboard!
All the statements are a total mess!
Sheila looks so fresh in the photographs? no sign of lividity, which policeman was it who said her arms and legs looked like marble or something like that? Did she really die at the same time as the others?
The judge said Sheila would not put the silencer back in a box in the cupboard. Which I agree with.
I created a thread this month on why Bamber put the silencer back in the cupboard. One of only three options for him. You did not refute any of them.
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There was a massive kitchen fight. Sheila's feet, body and nightdress were not marked.
Bamber would not get marks as he was covered up, wearing shoes & twice as strong as Sheila.
which policeman was it who said her arms and legs looked like marble or something like that
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None that I know of.
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https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9971.msg455277.html#msg455277
I have previously done a breakdown of the kitchen fight. Going by the crime scene evidence.
There is no reason why Bamber would have sustained injuries.
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I don't care what anyone says, a mother would fight for her children and also have risked being peppered with bullets as she shielded them, so considering Sheila had no such injuries, she was the one holding the rifle.
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I don't agree with Rob saying Bamber would be 'home free' if he had left the silencer next to Sheila.
It would then be a crime scene exhibit. The paint & blood would be tested.
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I doubt that Bamber was aware of back spatter. Or aware the silencer had brushed along the aga. If he was he would have spent 30 seconds putting it under a tap.
He simply took the silencer off downstairs prior to burning Nevill's back.
He then put it away back where it should be - in it's box at the back of the gun cupboard. A few feet from Nevill.
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I doubt that Bamber was aware of back spatter. Or aware the silencer had brushed along the aga. If he was he would have spent 30 seconds putting it under a tap.
He simply took the silencer off downstairs prior to burning Nevill's back.
He then put away back where it should be - in it's box in the gun cupboard. A few feet from Nevill.
Bamber agrees Nevill's back was burnt minus the silencer.
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I doubt that Bamber was aware of back spatter. Or aware the silencer had brushed along the aga. If he was he would have spent 30 seconds putting it under a tap.
He simply took the silencer off downstairs prior to burning Nevill's back.
He then put it away back where it should be - in it's box in the gun cupboard. A few feet from Nevill.
There is no certainty Bamber was even aware the rifle was too long for Sheila with silencer attached.
If he wasn't he was intially lucky.
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Steve, he had the brass neck to state on national TV that he'd hoped for a reconciliation. He had no intentions with all the females he was knocking off ! Even on his wedding night.
Have you any idea how sad you sound?
What business is it of yours?
And it wasn't his wedding night. It was Sheila's 21st birthday party. More misinformation from you.
Colin and Sheila were divorced long before the murders.
Denigrating a man online who lost his two little boys in the tragedy just about sums up how sad and pathetic you are.
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Have you any idea how sad you sound?
What business is it of yours?
And it wasn't his wedding night. It was Sheila's 21st birthday party. More misinformation from you.
Colin and Sheila were divorced long before the murders.
Denigrating a man online who lost his two little boys in the tragedy just about sums up how sad and pathetic you are.
He should not misrepresent his situation, in an attempt to absolve himself of blame regarding the impact of his own behaviour on Sheila Caffell. Colin clings to Jeremy's conviction because it absolves him from facing uncomfortable truths.
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He should not misrepresent his situation, in an attempt to absolve himself of blame regarding the impact of his own behaviour on Sheila Caffell. Colin clings to Jeremy's conviction because it absolves him from facing uncomfortable truths.
The pair separated in 1979 and divorced in 1982. The murders took place some 6 years after they separated and 3 years after they divorced. How is Colin to blame? Does evidence exist that Sheila complained to anyone about Colin including her psychiatrist?
You're a horrible little man.
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Going by the evidence, it was more of a kitchen attack by Bamber, rather than a fight.
Nevill had been shot 4 times upstairs, was bare footed, in pyjamas and had been chased downstairs by Bamber.
They did struggle for the rifle for a few seconds. However Nevill landed no blows onto Bamber.
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Going by the evidence, it was more of a kitchen attack by Bamber, rather than a fight.
Nevill had been shot 4 times upstairs, was bare footed, in pyjamas and had been chased downstairs by Bamber.
They did struggle for the rifle for a few seconds. However Nevill landed no blows onto Bamber.
As Justice Henriques said in the recent Sky prog it was the most compelling aspect of the case for him in that it was completely out of the question that Sheila was able to overpower her father.
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The judge said Nevill 'put up a tremendous fight for life'.
Which tragically for everyone staying at WHF could only be defending himself.
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As Justice Henriques said in the recent Sky prog it was the most compelling aspect of the case for him in that it was completely out of the question that Sheila was able to overpower her father.
This puzzles me to be honest Sheila had the rifle, Nevil may have already been hit in the arm and wounded before the scuffle, but JB likewise would have avoided a fight at all costs a mark and he is done for.
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The judge said Nevill 'put up a tremendous fight for life'.
Which tragically for everyone staying at WHF could only be defending himself.
Have you seen two strong men fighting Adam? it's a bit more than a few overturned chairs.
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Have you seen two strong men fighting Adam? it's a bit more than a few overturned chairs.
There was also a smashed light, scratched aga & sugar on the floor. Together with Nevill's horrific body and head injuries.
As said it was more of an attack than a fight.
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There was also a smashed light, scratched aga & split sugar. Together with Nevill's horrific body and head injuries.
Those injuries were done when he was not longer a threat, probably unconscious.
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This puzzles me to be honest Sheila had the rifle, Nevil may have already been hit in the arm and wounded before the scuffle, but JB likewise would have avoided a fight at all costs a mark and he is done for.
Yes Sheila had the rifle but she was out of bullets so it was really petite Sheila barefooted in a flimsy sleeveless knee high nightdress with long painted nails v Mr Bamber a fit farmer, physically strong, WW2 survivor covered with a pair of thick brushed cotton full arm/leg pyjamas. When you analyse it like this the learned trial and appeal judge make total sense.
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As said, a fully fit Nevill would have resolved the situation straight away.
A natural reaction for a father, grandfather and husband. Also a natural reaction for a 6.4, 15 stone farmer & former army officer who had an early start in the morning.
Ring Jeremy ;D
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Yes Sheila had the rifle but she was out of bullets so it was really petite Sheila barefooted in a flimsy sleeveless knee high nightdress with long painted nails v Mr Bamber a fit farmer, physically strong, WW2 survivor covered with a pair of thick brushed cotton full arm/leg pyjamas. When you analyse it like this the learned trial and appeal judge make total sense.
But we don't know how it played out, Nevil may have had only one usable arm and hit three or four time in the face before they came together, it's pure guesswork? I still say if it was JB Nevil would have been killed outright in bed, anywhere else suggests Sheila to me anyway.
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But we don't know how it played out, Nevil may have had only one usable arm and hit three or four time in the face before they came together, it's pure guesswork? I still say if it was JB Nevil would have been killed outright in bed, anywhere else suggests Sheila to me anyway.
I think Mr Bamber had two gunshot wounds to his face. The other wounds were elsewhere on his body and head. I think it is commonly accepted that Bamber emptied the magazine in Mr and Mrs Bamber's bedroom so when Mr Bamber and Bamber ended up in the kitchen it was really hand to hand fighting.
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I think Mr Bamber had two gunshot wounds to his face. The other wounds were elsewhere on his body and head. I think it is commonly accepted that Bamber emptied the magazine in Mr and Mrs Bamber's bedroom so when Mr Bamber and Bamber ended up in the kitchen it was really hand to hand fighting.
There is no blood on Nevils side of the bed, and to my knowledge none in the bedroom, so not sure how anyone can say "it is commonly accepted ...."
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There is no blood on Nevils side of the bed, and to my knowledge none in the bedroom, so not sure how anyone can say "it is commonly accepted ...."
There is lots of blood on Nevill's side of the bed. The blood tested was Sheila's and Junes.
Nevill was shot twice in the face while still in bed. Then shot twice in the torso after he stood up.
He exited the bedroom within seconds so no time for any blood to drip onto the floor.
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There is lots of blood on Nevill's side of the bed. The blood tested was Sheila's and Junes.
Nevill was shot twice in the face while still in bed. Then shot twice in the torso after he stood up.
He exited the bedroom within seconds so no time for any blood to drip onto the floor.
Unless I am mistaken the blood on the bed was on Junes side?
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There is no blood on Nevils side of the bed, and to my knowledge none in the bedroom, so not sure how anyone can say "it is commonly accepted ...."
If you read testimony from the defence pahtologist he confirms that its a misconception that bleeding starts straight away. Apparently it doesn't the vessels contract before bleeing starts. As you seem to be one of the more reasoanble ones here albeit we have different views I will find it for you.
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Unless I am mistaken the blood on the bed was on Junes side?
That is correct.
Nevill was awake and on the move when Bamber shot him twice in the face. He had woken as Bamber shot June 5 times in bed.
So no time for any blood to drip onto Nevill's side of the bed.
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There is lots of blood on Nevill's side of the bed. The blood tested was Sheila's and Junes.
Nevill was shot twice in the face while still in bed. Then shot twice in the torso after he stood up.
He exited the bedroom within seconds so no time for any blood to drip onto the floor.
"Nevill was shot twice in the face while still in bed. Then shot twice in the torso after he stood up."
If it was JB, who was a good with a gun Nevil would not have got out of bed he was the biggest risk and JB would have made no mistakes.
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If you read testimony from the defence pahtologist he confirms that its a misconception that bleeding starts straight away. Apparently it doesn't the vessels contract before bleeing starts. As you seem to be one of the more reasoanble ones here albeit we have different views I will find it for you.
FAO Rob re above
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"Nevill was shot twice in the face while still in bed. Then shot twice in the torso after he stood up."
If it was JB, who was a good with a gun Nevil would not have got out of bed he was the biggest risk and JB would have made no mistakes.
You need to follow the evidence.
June was shot 5 times in bed.
Nevill woke during these 5 shots. Resulting in Bamber managing 2 face & 2 torso shots. Rather than 4 face shots.
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If you read testimony from the defence pahtologist he confirms that its a misconception that bleeding starts straight away. Apparently it doesn't the vessels contract before bleeing starts. As you seem to be one of the more reasoanble ones here albeit we have different views I will find it for you.
Good post & supporting documentation.
This is espescially true with the low powered rifle.
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Thanks for the information Cc, I have not quoted your post to save space.
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I think Mr Bamber had two gunshot wounds to his face. The other wounds were elsewhere on his body and head. I think it is commonly accepted that Bamber emptied the magazine in Mr and Mrs Bamber's bedroom so when Mr Bamber and Bamber ended up in the kitchen it was really hand to hand fighting.
I've never heard such tosh !" Hand to hand fighting ?". Wouldn't JB have had signs of a fight ? Cuts/ bruises, the odd gunshot ?
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I've never heard such tosh !" Hand to hand fighting ?". Wouldn't JB have had signs of a fight ? Cuts/ bruises, the odd gunshot ?
Of course he wouldn't have had signs he was wearing gloves, a wetsuit and a balaclava ::)
How would Bamber have incurred any gunshot wounds? ::)
More nonsense from you. You're incapable of any sort of rational thought.
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Of course he wouldn't have had signs he was wearing gloves, a wetsuit and a balaclava ::)
How would Bamber have incurred any gunshot wounds? ::)
More nonsense from you. You're incapable of any sort of rational thought.
And where in any document does it say that ? The Beano ?
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And where in any document does it say that ? The Beano ?
Look at what he was wearing and added when he arrived at the farm to meet the police. He had to cycle there and back. Ok it was summer but still cold at the time he carried out the murders.
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Look at what he was wearing and added when he arrived at the farm to meet the police. He had to cycle there and back. Ok it was summer but still cold at the time he carried out the murders.
You must be related to RWB because he was full of bull too ! Yeah---wet-suit, flippers and a snorkel, I've heard it all before ::)
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Look at what he was wearing and added when he arrived at the farm to meet the police. He had to cycle there and back. Ok it was summer but still cold at the time he carried out the murders.
Lookout is trying to deflect.
You made a good point with a source showing how Nevill would not have bled in bed or in the bedroom. Even Rob was stumped.
Ignore Lookout.
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Believe one of David's two reasons for his attempted quiet stance change was there was no blood on Nevill's side of the bed.
A very weak reason as it could take minutes for blood to start dripping from his mouth from a rifle of that low power.
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You can see in Sheila's picture a trickle of blood ran down her neck over the hours she lay there.
It didn't start pouring out within two seconds. So why would it with Nevill?
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Lookout is trying to deflect.
You made a good point with a source about showing Nevill would not have bled in bed or in the bedroom. Even Rob was stumped.
Ignore Lookout.
Deflect ? If the pair of you had brains you'd be dangerous !
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You can see in Sheila's picture a trickle of blood ran down her neck over the hours she lay there.
It didn't start pouring out within two seconds. So why would it with Nevill?
So it didn't start pouring out... But there was 'backspatter'?
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You must be related to RWB because he was full of bull too ! Yeah---wet-suit, flippers and a snorkel, I've heard it all before ::)
I am going to make a formal complaint to the moderator here. I want to debate the case sensibly. Instead the focus is on who I might be which ranges from a troll to a relative of the late Mr Doubtflour. Utterly ridiculous.
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So it didn't start pouring out... But there was 'backspatter'?
Blood running from a wound and blood sucked into the silencer are two completely different mechanisms.
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I am going to make a formal complaint to the moderator here. I want to debate the case sensibly. Instead the focus is on who I might be which ranges from a troll to a relative of the late Mr Doubtflour. Utterly ridiculous.
Okay, and while you're at it don't forget to mention that you've threatened to have me banned because I've dared to retaliate at the abuse and insults you've thrown my way !
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Okay, and while you're at it don't forget to mention that you've threatened to have me banned because I've dared to retaliate at the abuse and insults you've thrown my way !
I don't give a damn about you hurling abuse and insults my way. What I object to is you flooding the board with misinformation and denigrating the victims.
I keep saying and I will say again you need putting out to pasture.
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Doubtflour ? You can't spell either ! Not for the first time you've got the name wrong.
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Doubtflour ? You can't spell either ! Not for the first time you've got the name wrong.
Pity you aren't this observant with Bamber. If you were you would see him for what he is...a child murderer.
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Pity you aren't this observant with Bamber. If you were you would see him for what he is...a child murderer.
As if I'm going to take any notice of what you say/ write.
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Blood running from a wound and blood sucked into the silencer are two completely different mechanisms.
Well, given we both know there was no blood sucked in to the silencer, I suppose it's an irrelevance anyway.
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Well, given we both know there was no blood sucked in to the silencer, I suppose it's an irrelevance anyway.
It might be irrelevant to us but its certainly not irrelevant to Bamber and the review commission.
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So it didn't start pouring out... But there was 'backspatter'?
That is what the evidence shows.
People watch films where someone is shot & either dies straight away or their clothes are covered in blood straight away & they are fighting to stay alive.
That would not happen here as it is a weapon for shooting rabbits.
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You're watching too many westerns !
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That is what the evidence shows.
People watch films where someone is shot & either dies straight away or their clothes are covered in blood straight away & they are fighting to stay alive.
That would not happen here as it is a weapon for shooting rabbits.
At close range a .22 is still lethal Adam, how many exit wounds to the skull were there? Would the hollow point bullets be able to do this?
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That is what the evidence shows.
People watch films where someone is shot & either dies straight away or their clothes are covered in blood straight away & they are fighting to stay alive.
That would not happen here as it is a weapon for shooting rabbits.
The defence pathologist says as much here -
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/professor-bernard-knight-pathologist-turned-1929920
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The debate about whether Nevill got his first two face shots in bed is really a non debate. Of course he did.
The twins & June were shot in bed. Nevill's first two face shots were in bed.
Of course there was no time for Nevill's blood to drip onto the bed or floor. He was on the move as fast as he could.
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The debate about whether Nevill got his first two face shots in bed is really a non debate. Of course he did.
The twins & June were shot in bed. Nevill's first two face shots were in bed.
Of course there was no time for Nevill's blood to drip onto the bed or floor. He was on the move as fast as he could.
I can understand Sheila messing up the shots to Nevil in the bedroom and him being able to get up out of bed, but why did he run downstairs and not take her out? One punch from a 6' 4" farmer would have laid her out cold?
You keep arguing that if the situation started down in the kitchen he would have immediately disarmed her so why not in the bedroom?
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The debate about whether Nevill got his first two face shots in bed is really a non debate. Of course he did.
The twins & June were shot in bed. Nevill's first two face shots were in bed.
Of course there was no time for Nevill's blood to drip onto the bed or floor. He was on the move as fast as he could.
June suffered 3 shots while in her bed, the rest was when she got up. Two of the 3 shots went into the pillow. Nevill wasn't shot in the bedroom or his blood would have been traced there and it wasn't. He was shot as he made his way downstairs to the kitchen.
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I can understand Sheila messing up the shots to Nevil in the bedroom and him being able to get up out of bed, but why did he run downstairs and not take her out? One punch from a 6' 4" farmer would have laid her out cold?
You keep arguing that if the situation started down in the kitchen he would have immediately disarmed her so why not in the bedroom?
but why did he run downstairs and not take her out.
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Yes. Why did Nevil let Sheila put a rifle an inch from his face & fire twice. Then run downstairs.
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but why did he run downstairs and not take her out.
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Yes. Why did Nevil let Sheila put a rifle an inch from his face & fire twice. Then run downstairs.
Or rather 'why would'.
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June suffered 3 shots while in her bed, the rest was when she got up. Two of the 3 shots went into the pillow. Nevill wasn't shot in the bedroom or his blood would have been traced there and it wasn't. He was shot as he made his way downstairs to the kitchen.
June was shot 5 times in bed and twice on the bedroom floor.
Keep up.
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Or rather 'why would'.
Back to your old tricks Adam, if Nevil can disarm Sheila in the kitchen as you keep saying, why not in the bedroom?
You keep asking me to follow the evidence, I think it's a question that as it's your theory you should answer.
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Back to your old tricks Adam, if Nevil can disarm Sheila in the kitchen as you keep saying, why not in the bedroom?
You keep asking me to follow the evidence, I think it's a question that as it's your theory you should answer.
Yes why not in the kitchen or the bedroom.
He was a fit 6.4 15 stone farmer & former army officer. He was also a father, grandfather & husband & had an early start.
Ringing Jeremy ;D
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Nevill apparently didn't disarm Sheila when fully fit. Instead ringing his sleeping son 3 miles away.
He then lets Sheila put the rifle an inch from his face to fire twice.
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Yes why not in the kitchen or the bedroom.
He was a fit 6.4 15 stone farmer & former army officer. He was also a father, grandfather & husband & had an early start.
Ringing Jeremy ;D
Oh ok so you cannot answer.
Nevil would not have run past Sheila in the bedroom would he? He would not have known if the boys had been shot, he would have tried to save the family. The last thing he would do is run down the stairs!
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Oh ok so you cannot answer.
Nevil would not have run past Sheila in the bedroom would he? He would not have known if the boys had been shot, he would have tried to save the family. The last thing he would do is run down the stairs!
Nevil would not have run past Sheila in the bedroom would he?
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No he wouldn't.
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Oh ok so you cannot answer.
Nevil would not have run past Sheila in the bedroom would he? He would not have known if the boys had been shot, he would have tried to save the family. The last thing he would do is run down the stairs!
He would not have known if the boys had been shot.
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Of course. The sort of thing he would miss Sheila doing.
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He would not have known if the boys had been shot.
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Of course. The sort of thing he would miss.
So your scenario fails to fit the crime scene evidence, the only logical scenario is the situation starting down in the kitchen.
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He would not have known if the boys had been shot.
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Of course. The sort of thing he would miss Sheila doing.
Unless I am mistaken Rob is saying Nevill would not know if Sheila had shot the twins.
Was he making a sandwich?
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Rob seems to be saying Nevill would not do certain things if it was Sheila.
I am agreeing!
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Unless I am mistaken Rob is saying Nevill would not know if Sheila had shot the twins.
Was he making a sandwich?
He was asleep, were they shot first no one knows, but there was a room in between the boys room and the main bedroom so he would not have heard. The rifle was pretty quiet with or without a silencer.
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Rob seems to be saying Nevill would not do certain things if it was Sheila.
I am agreeing!
I am saying your scenario is wrong, Nevil was not shot in the bedroom.
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He was asleep, were they shot first no one knows, but there was a room in between the boys room and the main bedroom so he would not have heard. The rifle was pretty quiet with or without a silencer.
Are you referring to Bamber shooting Nevill 4 times in the main bedroom. Which the evidence states.
Agree at this time Nevill would not know if the twins had been shot.
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I am saying your scenario is wrong, Nevil was not shot in the bedroom.
The crime scene evidence shows he was shot 4 times in the main bedroom.
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Oh ok so you cannot answer.
Nevil would not have run past Sheila in the bedroom would he? He would not have known if the boys had been shot, he would have tried to save the family. The last thing he would do is run down the stairs!
He's looking to reach a telephone, the one which Jeremy had removed from the master bedroom.
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Are you referring to Bamber shooting Nevill 4 times in the main bedroom. Which the evidence states.
Agree at this time Nevill would not know if the twins had been shot.
I have always said if JB was the shooter Nevil does not get out of bed.
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Rob seems to be saying Nevill would not do certain things if it was Sheila.
I am agreeing!
A person can only know that they have been shot by physically entering the room. Even if audible shots are heard from an adjacent room or another part of the house. Of course, if such shots were heard, then the worst would have been assumed and it is a horrific scenario. If Nevill was downstairs as some suspect, his way could have been barred, as depicted in the CGI images David produced. He cannot reach the twins to physically check on them because his own daughter is firing a gun at him.
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He's looking to reach a telephone, the one which Jeremy had removed from the master bedroom.
Someone was also shooting at him.
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He's looking to reach a telephone, the one which Jeremy had removed from the master bedroom.
Yes I agree but he would not run past Sheila he would flatten her then call for help.
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Yes I agree but he would not run past Sheila he would flatten her then call for help.
Agree.
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A person can only know that they have been shot by physically entering the room. Even if audible shots are heard from an adjacent room or another part of the house. Of course, if such shots were heard, then the worst would have been assumed and it is a horrific scenario. If Nevill was downstairs as some suspect, his way could have been barred, as depicted in the CGI images David produced. He cannot reach the twins to physically check on them because his own daughter is firing a gun at him.
And in this scenario he knows he is probably too late so tries to get back to the phone downstairs.
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Agree.
Although would not call for help. Sheila was no threat once the weapons were locked away.
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Agree.
And he would not run past JB either, the fight would have been in the bedroom.
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And he would not run past JB either, the fight would have been in the bedroom.
The evidence shows he did.
He was being shot at. People tend to run.
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The evidence shows he did.
He was being shot at. People tend to run.
There is no evidence suggesting this, you are saying Nevil was a coward, it looked like June tried to put up a fight as well.
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There is no evidence suggesting this, you are saying Nevil was a coward, it looked like June tried to put up a fight as well.
Nevill was shot 4 times in the main bedroom.
He then went downstairs where there was a kitchen fight & he was killed.
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Nevill was shot 4 times in the main bedroom.
He then went downstairs where there was a kitchen fight & he was killed.
Well I respectively disagree, the first shots to Nevil in your scenario are all over the place, torso, face etc. this strongly suggests Sheila. AP said he took part in shooting competitions and was pretty good with a gun and JB was as good as him.
Who ever was in the bedroom this is your scenario not mine, Nevil would not have just run past.
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Well I respectively disagree, the first shots to Nevil in your scenario are all over the place, torso, face etc. this strongly suggests Sheila. AP said he took part in shooting competitions and was pretty good with a gun and JB was as good as him.
Who ever was in the bedroom this is your scenario not mine, Nevil would not have just run past.
The evidence shows Nevill received 6 head/face shots. All were from inches away.
He received 2 torso shots which were from feet away.
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Well I respectively disagree, the first shots to Nevil in your scenario are all over the place, torso, face etc. this strongly suggests Sheila. AP said he took part in shooting competitions and was pretty good with a gun and JB was as good as him.
Who ever was in the bedroom this is your scenario not mine, Nevil would not have just run past.
Who ever was in the bedroom this is your scenario not mine, Nevil would not have just run past.
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A man was shooting Nevill in the head & body.
Agree a fully fit Nevill would not let Sheila put a rifle an inch from his face in the main bedroom.
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Can't see why people do not follow the evidence -
June was shot 5 times in bed.
Nevill shot twice in bed.
Nevill shot twice more out of bed.
Nevill goes downstairs.
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Who ever was in the bedroom this is your scenario not mine, Nevil would not have just run past.
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A man was shooting Nevill in the head & body.
Agree a fully fit Nevill would not let Sheila put a rifle an inch from his face in the main bedroom.
The problem is in your scenario a crack shooter creeps into a bedroom and fails to take out the main threat with four shots at close range, I don't buy it sorry.
Then to add insult to injury you have Nevil just running past and leaving his family to their fate!
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The problem is in your scenario a crack shooter creeps into a bedroom and fails to take out the main threat with four shots at close range, I don't buy it sorry.
Then to add insult to injury you have Nevil just running past and leaving his family to their fate!
Two shots from close range. The other two were from feet away. As the evidence states.
Nevill ran downstairs. As the evidence states. A man was shooting at him.
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Can't see why people do not follow the evidence -
June was shot 5 times in bed.
Nevill shot twice in bed.
Nevill shot twice more out of bed.
Nevill goes downstairs.
If this happened where is the 999 call? would only take a second.
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If this happened where is the 999 call? would only take a second.
Yes it would have done, wouldn't it? But Jeremy decided to flick through the Yellow Pages for twenty minutes before calling any emergency service, knowing full well that at White House Farm all five were dead therein.
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Yes it would have done, wouldn't it? But Jeremy decided to flick through the Yellow Pages for twenty minutes before calling any emergency service, knowing full well that at White House Farm all five were dead therein.
If he knew they were dead, it doesn't matter whether he phoned 999 or local, surely?
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If he knew they were dead, it doesn't matter whether he phoned 999 or local, surely?
Oh but he had to clean himself up and look presentable before venturing into the outside world again, donning two jumpers and a blouson, no more smell of farmwork ever again after a shower as he anticipated the final encounters, necessary toil before he could finally be free.
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If this happened where is the 999 call? would only take a second.
999 call from Nevill?
Bamber was a few feet behind him.
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Bamber was never going to call the police himself & pretend to be Nevill. That is much too elaborate and risky.
He also wanted to tell the police that Nevill wanted to keep family matters private.
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Bamber was never going to call the police himself & pretend to be Nevill. That is much too elaborate and risky.
He also wanted to tell the police that Nevill wanted to keep family matters private.
He gambled on this, and his remark to Liz Rimington that "you can convince anyone of anything." summarizes his position. The stage was set for the unfolding tragic drama, Jeremy in the role of victim as five members of his family lay dead yards from where he stood, all having met their maker at Jeremy's own hand.
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999 call from Nevill?
Bamber was a few feet behind him.
If it was JB I believe he had to fake the calls somehow, but if he just lied and made them up he would have been under no time constraints, once he was cleaned up he would just dial 999 saying " You have to help my dad called a few minutes ago....."
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If it was JB I believe he had to fake the calls somehow, but if he just lied and made them up he would have been under no time constraints, once he was cleaned up he would just dial 999 saying " You have to help my dad called a few minutes ago....."
He did ring the police. Although the sixth furthest away station rather than 999.
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If this happened where is the 999 call? would only take a second.
Rob I can totally understand why JB rang a local police number. His dad was a magistrate and anyone in his position would something like this krr set pt within the family. It would have been quite obvious an incident with firearms and Sheila would affect Sheila having any contact with the twins in the future
Sheila had never done this before so Jeremy would not have realised how badly things were going to turn out
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He did ring the police. Although the sixth furthest away station rather than 999.
If JB had already killed everyone, argument about which police number he used is a moot point, surely?
Criticism can only be suggested, if he is in fact innocent but dallying.
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If JB had already killed everyone, argument about which police number he used is a moot point, surely?
Criticism can only be suggested, if he is in fact innocent but dallying.
No because it showed an insouciance as to their fate, the purported call from his father not necessitating immediate action, firstly because they were all dead anyway and secondly because no such call was made.
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Bamber rang Chelmsford police as it gave him the best chance of being picked up. Creating a 'I've just got dressed' impression. He can start insinuating Sheila in the police car.
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He did ring the police. Although the sixth furthest away station rather than 999.
But the point I was trying to make Adam is if he was lying about receiving the call from Nevil he would just have dialed 999.
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Rob I can totally understand why JB rang a local police number. His dad was a magistrate and anyone in his position would something like this krr set pt within the family. It would have been quite obvious an incident with firearms and Sheila would affect Sheila having any contact with the twins in the future
Sheila had never done this before so Jeremy would not have realised how badly things were going to turn out
I agree Jackie, I was trying to explain to Adam that this suggests JB was not lying about the call from Nevil, If he was fabricating the Nevil call he would have dialed 999.
English is not my strong point I am a number cruncher!
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But the point I was trying to make Adam is if he was lying about receiving the call from Nevil he would just have dialed 999.
Why?
I just posted a reason he phoned Chelmsford.
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But the point I was trying to make Adam is if he was lying about receiving the call from Nevil he would just have dialed 999.
But why the time lag between Nevill's purported telephone call and Jeremy's call to emergency services? And why telephone Julie at all in the middle of the night?
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No because it showed an insouciance as to their fate, the purported call from his father not necessitating immediate action, firstly because they were all dead anyway and secondly because no such call was made.
If you are arguing the case for a situation where he is trying to pretend his dad phoned him in desperation - why would he then transact such a plan by not taking it seriously enough to warrant a 999 call? Sorry Steve but in brushing aside anomalies, guilters try and have it all ways.
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If you are arguing the case for a situation where he is trying to pretend his dad phoned him in desperation - why would he then transact such a plan by not taking it seriously enough to warrant a 999 call? Sorry Steve but in brushing aside anomalies, guilters try and have it all ways.
An innocent person would just dial 999.
Who has ever looked for the number of the sixth furthest away police station. In any situation?
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Police cars leaving from Chelmsford gave him the best chance of being picked up. Which has lots of advantages.
It also gives him extra minutes to compose/motivate himself.
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An innocent person would just dial 999.
Who has ever looked for the number of the sixth furthest away police station. In any situation?
What advantage does he personally gain by faffing with the rigmarole of contacting a local station?
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Police cars leaving from Chelmsford gave him the best chance of being picked up. Which has lots of advantages.
It also gives him extra minutes to compose/motivate himself.
He didn't get picked up. How could he know they would suggest him being picked up?
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If you are arguing the case for a situation where he is trying to pretend his dad phoned him in desperation - why would he then transact such a plan by not taking it seriously enough to warrant a 999 call? Sorry Steve but in brushing aside anomalies, guilters try and have it all ways.
He may have thought the 999 call would be recorded and he wished to leave as few traces as possible. The guilters believe there was no call from Nevill, but the pretence that their was gave him the pretext to involve police and effectively make them his alibi.
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He didn't get picked up. How could he know they would suggest him bring picked up?
He requested to be picked up. But they told him to meet him there.
The vehicles eventually dispatched from Witham went near his cottage. They overtook his car.
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Why?
I just posted a reason he phoned Chelmsford.
If he committed the crime and was lying about his fathers call why arouse suspicion on himself?
I can see no reason not to dial 999?
If is is innocent and got flustered and not sure what to do I can understand why he rang Witham.
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He requested to be picked up. But they told him to meet him there.
The vehicles eventually dispatched from Witham went near his cottage. They overtook his car.
He could have requested to be picked up on a 999 call also.
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If he committed the crime and was lying about his fathers call why arouse suspicion on himself?
I can see no reason not to dial 999?
If is is innocent and got flustered and not sure what to do I can understand why he rang Witham.
I'll wager this was the true event.
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If he committed the crime and was lying about his fathers call why arouse suspicion on himself?
I can see no reason not to dial 999?
If is is innocent and got flustered and not sure what to do I can understand why he rang Witham.
I can see no reason not to dial 999?
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Agree with that. If innocent.
Doubt that Bamber thought phoning Chelmsford would arouse suspision. He believed it was an 'open & shut' case.
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He could have requested to be picked up on a 999 call also.
Less chance of vehicles being despatched from Chelmsford.
Bamber would believe the further out, the more chance a vehicle will make a detour & pick him up.
As it happened phoning Chelmsford resulted in cars from Witham being despatched.
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I can see no reason not to dial 999?
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Agree with that. If innocent.
Doubt that Bamber thought phoning Chelmsford would arouse suspision. He believed it was an 'open & shut' case.
You seem to forget he is trying not to get caught, if guilty he would definitely have dialled 999 why not?
How can he assume it was a open and shut case, lots of things could have given him away, even walking / cycling with no lights he might still have been seen.
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Less chance of vehicles being despatched from Chelmsford.
Bamber would believe the further out, the more chance a vehicle will make a detour & pick him up.
As it happened phoning Chelmsford resulted in cars from Witham being despatched.
What is the advantage of him being offered a lift?
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You seem to forget he is trying not to get caught, if guilty he would definitely have dialled 999 why not?
How can he assume it was a open and shut case, lots of things could have given him away, even walking / cycling with no lights he might still have been seen.
How can he assume it was a open and shut case
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Most criminals probably think that beforehand. Then they are caught. Bamber went on his first jolly up a couple of days after the massacre for goodness sake.
Bamber phoning the sixth furthest away police station is very damaging. He has never given a good reason.
Who an earth would receive such a call (at 3am), then think 'I must look for the number of my sixth furthest away police station'.
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What is the advantage of him being offered a lift?
I have said earlier in the thread.
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How can he assume it was a open and shut case
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Most criminals probably think that beforehand. Then they are caught. Bamber went on his first jolly up a couple of days after the massacre for goodness sake.
Bamber phoning the sixth furthest away police station is very damaging. He has never given a good reason.
Who an earth would receive such a call (at 3am), then think 'I must look for the number of my sixth furthest away police station'.
Who even knows where is your sixth furthest away police station. Let alone phone it?
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Who even knows where is your sixth furthest away police station. Let alone phone it?
Why is the sixth station away of any significance? he would have just looked up Witham, 15 minutes away for a Police car.
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I know my nearest police station. But after that.
Certainly wouldn't start searching for the phone number of my sixth furthest away police station over 20 miles away. In any emergency.
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I know my nearest police station. But after that.
Certainly wouldn't start searching for the phone number of my sixth furthest away police station over 20 miles away. In any emergency.
I would firstly need to find out which was my sixth furthest away police station.
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I would firstly need to find out which was my sixth furthest away police station.
What difference would it make if you were guilty?
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Who even knows where is your sixth furthest away police station. Let alone phone it?
Gosh you do talk in riddles, he knew there was a station at Witham so he looked up Witham and dialed the number.
What do you think he done, got a map out and a protractor and found the sixth station away?
Still waiting for you to answer Roch's question why it was an advantage to get a lift? It must have been one huge advantage because his best course of action was simply to dial 999 as far as I can see?
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Gosh you do talk in riddles, he knew there was a station at Witham so he looked up Witham and dialed the number.
What do you think he done, got a map out and a protractor and found the sixth station away?
Still waiting for you to answer Roch's question why it was an advantage to get a lift? It must have been one huge advantage because his best course of action was simply to dial 999 as far as I can see?
Try not to start with the snide comments. If you are taking a hammering, take it like a man.
I've already posted some advantages. On this thread!
Bamber initially said he phoned Witham. Then said he didn't. Witham was manned. The Judge said Bamber should know whether he phoned Witham or not.
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Gosh you do talk in riddles, he knew there was a station at Witham so he looked up Witham and dialed the number.
What do you think he done, got a map out and a protractor and found the sixth station away?
Still waiting for you to answer Roch's question why it was an advantage to get a lift? It must have been one huge advantage because his best course of action was simply to dial 999 as far as I can see?
What is your view of Bamber calling Julie at 3am?
Again, deeply incriminating.
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What is your view of Bamber calling Julie at 3am?
Again, deeply incriminating.
JM said it was 3.30 in her first WS and she told AE this as well. If he was guilty would he have made the call I don't think so?
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JM said it was 3.30 in her first WS and she told AE this as well. If he was guilty would he have made the call I don't think so?
JB wouldn't even have phoned the police if he'd been guilty. Wouldn't he have just turned over in bed and left it for the early morning workers to find the family ? Being as there'd been no trace of him having been at WHF during the night, he may as well have stayed where he was.
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JM said it was 3.30 in her first WS and she told AE this as well. If he was guilty would he have made the call I don't think so?
So why say 'no comment' when the police asked him what he said. He must remember.
Julie remembers. The CT have never tackled it. Or the police interviews.
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JB wouldn't even have phoned the police if he'd been guilty. Wouldn't he have just turned over in bed and left it for the early morning workers to find the family ? Being as there'd been no trace of him having been at WHF during the night, he may as well have stayed where he was.
What workers? WHF was locked from inside.
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What workers? WHF was locked from inside.
Aha, so it was , which meant that JB couldn't enter either with " WHF locked from inside ". Your first admission !
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Aha, so it was , which meant that JB couldn't enter either with " WHF locked from inside ". Your first admission !
Seriously you should not be here. You have spent nearly a decade on the forum 24/7 and made tens of thousands of posts and still you do not understand the most basic aspects of the case. I am sorry but someone has to tell you. Give it up and find another more suitable hobby.
Bamber by his own admission said he was able to enter the farmhouse through unsecured and secured windows.
Do you actually read and absorb any of the case material?
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Gosh you do talk in riddles, he knew there was a station at Witham so he looked up Witham and dialed the number.
What do you think he done, got a map out and a protractor and found the sixth station away?
Still waiting for you to answer Roch's question why it was an advantage to get a lift? It must have been one huge advantage because his best course of action was simply to dial 999 as far as I can see?
If its any help, it was the police who asked him to go down in the first place.
3:22am Control room
JB: You’ve got to help me, my father has just phoned me saying ‘please come over, your
sister has gone crazy and has the gun’ then the phone went dead. My father sounded
terrified, I don’t think he was kidding.
West: Where does your father live?
JB: White House farm Tolleshunt D'arcy.
West: Does your sister have access to any guns?
JB: Yes my father has a collection of 12 bores and 4.10s and .22 rifles. Look my sister has a
history of mental illness. You’ve got to help me.
West: Hold the line please, I’ll contact our information room and find out where the nearest
unit is.
3:26am Information room
"I received a telephone call on the internal line. The officer at the other end announced
himself as PC 1990 at Chelmsford.
Mr Bamber was worried about a phone call that he had received from his father at
Tolleshunt D'arcy. I cannot remember the direct speech that was used but I was informed
that the telephone call had been received from Mr Bamber and that Mr Bamber's daughter
had gone berserk and had taken one of his guns and that the line had gone dead.
PC 1990 also informed me that Mr BAMBER Junior had stated that there was a collection of
guns at the house. I recorded these as being Shotguns and 410's."
3:30am Witham Police Station
"About 03:30 am I was on duty at Witham Police Station in company Police Sergeant 36
BEWS and Police Constable 1509 MYALL. when I received a message over my personal radio,
from Chelmsford Police Station to the effect that a telephone call had been received from a
Mr Jeremy BAMBER, who had said that he had received a telephone call from his father Mr
Neville BAMBER of "White House Farm" Tolleshunt D'Arcy, saying that his sister was going
berserk and that she had a gun."
3:34am Control room
West: Hello
JB: Christ. You took a long time
West: I have contacted my Information room and Witham Police Station and a car is on its way
to your father's address at Tolleshunt D'Arcy. What's your father’s telephone number?
JB: Maldon 860204
West: How old is your father?
JB: Sixty two
West: Do you know who’s in the house?
JB: My father obviously , my mother and Sheila. Look, when my father rang me he sounded
terrified, I don’t think he's kidding about. I tried ringing him back and I can't get any reply.
West: Will you go to the house and wait for the Police officers and liaise with them there?
JB: Shall I go now?
West: Yes, the car from Witham won't take long. Can I have your telephone number?
JB: Goldhanger 88645
3:39am (or 3:19am)
JB: There’s something wrong at home. I don’t know what to do
Julie: Go to bed. bye honey
JB: I love you lots
3:35 - CA07 leaves Witham
3:41 - Jeremy leaves his house
3:47 - CA07 drives past Jeremy.
3:48 - CA07 arrives at White House Farm. Average journey speed 48mph
3:49 - Jeremy arrives at White House Farm. Average journey speed 31mph
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Thanks David I have read this many times, but I must admit for some reason I thought JB had requested the car to go via his house. That's another one of Adam's highly incriminating pieces of evidence put to bed.
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Bamber is being flippant when he refers to the windows. To take what he says at face value is gross stupidity. It implies being able to unlock windows which are on catches from the outside. Experiments would need to be carried out to prove his claim, where it a serious proposition. Obviously, the experiments would fail.
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Bamber is being flippant when he refers to the windows. To take what he says at face value is gross stupidity. It implies being able to unlock windows which are on catches from the outside. Experiments would need to be carried out to prove his claim, where it a serious proposition. Obviously, the experiments would fail.
See Paragraph 135. https://ceadstorage.blob.core.windows.net/cead-images/Bamber.PDF
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Thanks David I have read this many times, but I must admit for some reason I thought JB had requested the car to go via his house. That's another one of Adam's highly incriminating pieces of evidence put to bed.
Read Paragraph 134 before you fully make your mind up. https://ceadstorage.blob.core.windows.net/cead-images/Bamber.PDF
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If its any help, it was the police who asked him to go down in the first place.
3:22am Control room
JB: You’ve got to help me, my father has just phoned me saying ‘please come over, your
sister has gone crazy and has the gun’ then the phone went dead. My father sounded
terrified, I don’t think he was kidding.
West: Where does your father live?
JB: White House farm Tolleshunt D'arcy.
West: Does your sister have access to any guns?
JB: Yes my father has a collection of 12 bores and 4.10s and .22 rifles. Look my sister has a
history of mental illness. You’ve got to help me.
West: Hold the line please, I’ll contact our information room and find out where the nearest
unit is.
3:26am Information room
"I received a telephone call on the internal line. The officer at the other end announced
himself as PC 1990 at Chelmsford.
Mr Bamber was worried about a phone call that he had received from his father at
Tolleshunt D'arcy. I cannot remember the direct speech that was used but I was informed
that the telephone call had been received from Mr Bamber and that Mr Bamber's daughter
had gone berserk and had taken one of his guns and that the line had gone dead.
PC 1990 also informed me that Mr BAMBER Junior had stated that there was a collection of
guns at the house. I recorded these as being Shotguns and 410's."
3:30am Witham Police Station
"About 03:30 am I was on duty at Witham Police Station in company Police Sergeant 36
BEWS and Police Constable 1509 MYALL. when I received a message over my personal radio,
from Chelmsford Police Station to the effect that a telephone call had been received from a
Mr Jeremy BAMBER, who had said that he had received a telephone call from his father Mr
Neville BAMBER of "White House Farm" Tolleshunt D'Arcy, saying that his sister was going
berserk and that she had a gun."
3:34am Control room
West: Hello
JB: Christ. You took a long time
West: I have contacted my Information room and Witham Police Station and a car is on its way
to your father's address at Tolleshunt D'Arcy. What's your father’s telephone number?
JB: Maldon 860204
West: How old is your father?
JB: Sixty two
West: Do you know who’s in the house?
JB: My father obviously , my mother and Sheila. Look, when my father rang me he sounded
terrified, I don’t think he's kidding about. I tried ringing him back and I can't get any reply.
West: Will you go to the house and wait for the Police officers and liaise with them there?
JB: Shall I go now?
West: Yes, the car from Witham won't take long. Can I have your telephone number?
JB: Goldhanger 88645
3:39am (or 3:19am)
JB: There’s something wrong at home. I don’t know what to do
Julie: Go to bed. bye honey
JB: I love you lots
3:35 - CA07 leaves Witham
3:41 - Jeremy leaves his house
3:47 - CA07 drives past Jeremy.
3:48 - CA07 arrives at White House Farm. Average journey speed 48mph
3:49 - Jeremy arrives at White House Farm. Average journey speed 31mph
"My father sounded terrified..I don't think he was kidding."
So Nevill is in the habit of "kidding around" at the busiest time of the year for farmers, waking up one of his workers with a practical joke.
"My sister has a history of mental illness.." How long did it take Jeremy to rehearse the way this information was phrased?
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Seriously you should not be here. You have spent nearly a decade on the forum 24/7 and made tens of thousands of posts and still you do not understand the most basic aspects of the case. I am sorry but someone has to tell you. Give it up and find another more suitable hobby.
Bamber by his own admission said he was able to enter the farmhouse through unsecured and secured windows.
Do you actually read and absorb any of the case material?
Clear off yourself, you're not right.
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Thanks David I have read this many times
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We all have.
David is similar to Bill. Rarely posts but tries to be dramatic when he does. Usually by posting in bold & red.
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Thanks David I have read this many times
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We all have.
David is similar to Bill. Rarely posts but tries to be dramatic when he does. Usually by posting in bold & red.
I don't mind being corrected Adam, I am only a rookie on here.
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Read Paragraph 134 before you fully make your mind up. https://ceadstorage.blob.core.windows.net/cead-images/Bamber.PDF
I knew he admitted Steve that he could get in, but thought he said he could not get out and leave the windows fully secure?
I just look at the case as honestly as I can.
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Bamber is being flippant when he refers to the windows. To take what he says at face value is gross stupidity. It implies being able to unlock windows which are on catches from the outside. Experiments would need to be carried out to prove his claim, where it a serious proposition. Obviously, the experiments would fail.
283. In interview the following passage appeared:
"Appellant: There are many ways to get into the house i.e. windows"
Question: "What do you mean, insecure windows?
Appellant: "Insecure windows, secure windows, it makes no difference".
284. On the 12 September, 2 days later he was asked:
"Question: Have you ever got in a window by putting something in between the window frames, like a knife, to move the catch so you could slide the window open?
Answer: "Yes".
Question: Which window?
Answer: Downstairs toilet and lounge window".
From Bamber's interviews and the Court of Appeal doc.
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I knew he admitted Steve that he could get in, but thought he said he could not get out and leave the windows fully secure?
I just look at the case as honestly as I can.
If he can loosen the locking mechanism then surely he can bang a window to?
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If he can loosen the locking mechanism then surely he can bang a window to?
He can open the sash windows from outside but these can't be closed from outside, that's why it's thought he left through the kitchen window which is a different type. But if there is a secondary latch this cannot be closed which is why I would like to see a crime scene photo of this window.
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I knew he admitted Steve that he could get in, but thought he said he could not get out and leave the windows fully secure?
I just look at the case as honestly as I can.
You're correct he said he did not know of a way he could exit leaving windows/doors secured behind.
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You're correct he said he did not know of a way he could exit leaving windows/doors secured behind.
I wonder why he says "I don't think so" rather than "No" or "No comment.."
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I wonder why he says "I don't think so" rather than "No" or "No comment.."
He goes on to say its another way of saying no :-\
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283. In interview the following passage appeared:
"Appellant: There are many ways to get into the house i.e. windows"
Question: "What do you mean, insecure windows?
Appellant: "Insecure windows, secure windows, it makes no difference".
284. On the 12 September, 2 days later he was asked:
"Question: Have you ever got in a window by putting something in between the window frames, like a knife, to move the catch so you could slide the window open?
Answer: "Yes".
Question: Which window?
Answer: Downstairs toilet and lounge window".
From Bamber's interviews and the Court of Appeal doc.
Not windows pegged shut from the inside. Neither could he have locked the windows from the outside, as they were found by police.
If he can access one or two windows that were not pegged shut by reaching the catch then that is just being honest regarding familiarity with a building he had lived in.
The police told Robert Boutfour that sophisticated equipment had not detected tampering with the windows.
So did the police lie about this?
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He goes on to say its another way of saying no :-\
He does, but if you read further he does not deny outright the allegation that Julie was not making up a story.
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Not windows pegged shut from the inside. Neither could he have locked the windows from the outside, as they were found by police.
If he can access one or two windows that were not pegged shut by reaching the catch then that is just being honest regarding familiarity with a building he had lived in.
The police told Robert Boutfour that sophisticated equipment had not detected tampering with the windows.
So did the police lie about this?
May I suggest you read his statements that I've gone to the trouble of uploading.
I have no idea about any sophisticated equipment to detect tampering with windows.
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He does, but if you read further he does not deny outright the allegation that Julie was not making up a story.
That's not the way I interpret it.
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May I suggest you read his statements that I've gone to the trouble of uploading.
I have no idea about any sophisticated equipment to detect tampering with windows.
You're not posting up anything new. The fact of the matter is, if he can't lock windows behind him, it's somewhat of a moot point.
You've learned something new from me, regarding the 'sophisticated equipment'. Maybe you should be grateful.
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You're not posting up anything new. The fact of the matter is, if he can't lock windows behind him, it's somewhat of a moot point.
You've learned something new from me, regarding the 'sophisticated equipment'. Maybe you should be grateful.
Did I say I was posting anything new? I posted it for Rob's benefit. Much of the material I can instantly lay my hands on as unlike you and others here I spend more time reading than posting!
I would be grateful if you could provide a source of the 'sophisticated equipment'.
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Did I say I was posting anything new? I posted it for Rob's benefit. Much of the material I can instantly lay my hands on as unlike you and others here I spend more time reading than posting!
I would be grateful if you could provide a source of the 'sophisticated equipment'.
I already have twice before. The police either lied or told the truth? Which is it? If they told the truth, then they concealed it.
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Wednesday 21st August 1985 was Jeremy's trip to Amsterdam. He would surely need his passport for that trip.
Friday 13 September 1985 Jeremy needs documents for the South of France trip, so breaks in to White House Farm (Paragraph 141) https://ceadstorage.blob.core.windows.net/cead-images/Bamber.PDF
I mean, am I missing something here..
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DC Michael Barlow witness statement 21 November 1985:
He visited White House Farm that Wednesday morning (21 August 1985) to examine the windows, paying particular attention to the kitchen window whose metal catch was "slightly stiff and when fully opened, stuck in the open position." This enabled the window to be closed from the outside of the premises and by tapping the frame in the area of the catch, I found that the catch dropped into the locked position, giving the appearance that the window had been locked from inside." He was able to remove items from the sill, climb out over the sink, and replace everything before locking the window from outside.
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DC Michael Barlow witness statement 21 November 1985:
He visited White House Farm that Wednesday morning (21 August 1985) to examine the windows, paying particular attention to the kitchen window whose metal catch was "slightly stiff and when fully opened, stuck in the open position." This enabled the window to be closed from the outside of the premises and by tapping the frame in the area of the catch, I found that the catch dropped into the locked position, giving the appearance that the window had been locked from inside." He was able to remove items from the sill, climb out over the sink, and replace everything before locking the window from outside.
This is dealt with in the windows video Steve.
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DC Michael Barlow witness statement 21 November 1985:
He visited White House Farm that Wednesday morning (21 August 1985) to examine the windows, paying particular attention to the kitchen window whose metal catch was "slightly stiff and when fully opened, stuck in the open position." This enabled the window to be closed from the outside of the premises and by tapping the frame in the area of the catch, I found that the catch dropped into the locked position, giving the appearance that the window had been locked from inside." He was able to remove items from the sill, climb out over the sink, and replace everything before locking the window from outside.
Was the above presented at trial?
273. Further complaint is made that the prosecution failed to disclose the fact that DC Barlow examined the windows of White House Farm on 22 August 1985 and noted nothing of significance in relation to the bathroom window. His statement of 21 November 1985 indicates that:
"on Thursday the 22nd of August I was on duty when I went to White House Farm. There I made an examination of the kitchen window"
There is no reference in the statement to the bathroom window. 274. In notes written for the Essex Review (after trial) he wrote:
"22/8/85 first opportunity to go to White House Farm. Examined all the windows. Most are sash type and could be opened from outside but could not be closed"
He makes no suggestion of finding any entry mark associated with the bathroom window. 275. It is also of significance that he recorded on 20 August 1985:
"They (Robert Boulflour and Ann Eaton) thought the windows could be locked from outside the premises making particular reference to the window behind the bushes by the Geese pond facing towards the tennis court".
This would appear to be the kitchen window and provides the explanation for DC Barlow's examination of the kitchen window. 276. It is never easy for officers engaged in major enquiries to know to what extent they should include negative findings, which may be very numerous in their statements. In the case of DC Barlow we conclude that he should have included the fact that he examined all the windows on the 22 August. We find no evidence to indicate that he deliberately omitted this negative finding. Again this information should have been disclosed prior to trial.
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I already have twice before. The police either lied or told the truth? Which is it? If they told the truth, then they concealed it.
To the best of my knowledge no such equipment exists and I have never seen it mentioned anywhere other than what you've quoted. Excluding the scratches I have only seen fingerprint tests mentioned but haven't seen evidence of such. Maybe the comment re sophisticated equipment was a facetious one relating to fingerprint tests. :)
Depending on your overall case take no one will ever be satisfied with the windows as they are numerous and too many conflicting accounts exist. Bottom line is trial judge told jury the following so now redundant.
Point 286 Court of Appeal
As the trial Judge said (at page 10E):
"… how he got there and out again whether by the kitchen window or any other means, though of interest, cannot affect the outcome of the case"
288. It follows that any failure to disclose earlier examination of windows cannot affect the safety of this conviction.
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The judge should have asked others who knew of this route in and out of the farmhouse, i.e. AP and RP.
R.P=Roland Pargeter when he'd stayed at WHF ( without a house key ) Both entered/ exited via a window.
Why was this case so one-sided ?
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DC Michael Barlow witness statement 21 November 1985:
He visited White House Farm that Wednesday morning (21 August 1985) to examine the windows, paying particular attention to the kitchen window whose metal catch was "slightly stiff and when fully opened, stuck in the open position." This enabled the window to be closed from the outside of the premises and by tapping the frame in the area of the catch, I found that the catch dropped into the locked position, giving the appearance that the window had been locked from inside." He was able to remove items from the sill, climb out over the sink, and replace everything before locking the window from outside.
Here's more from DC Barlow by way of notes
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3185.0.html
I will start a new thread as contains multiple aspects and is quite interesting!
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This is dealt with in the windows video Steve.
I wonder if the real reason Jeremy Bamber returned to White House Farm was to retrieve the silencer.