Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: guest29835 on July 15, 2020, 01:36:AM
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This is an attempt to make a logical case for Nevill not having made a 999 call within the parameters of a 'reasonable doubt' argument.
We start with the tragic crime scene just as it is found and recorded on 7th. August 1985.
We will put aside the issues with the position of bullet casings and the deductions made by Essex Police from these . DI Cook concluded that Nevill had been shot four times upstairs. I find this rather unlikely – for fairly obvious reasons.
Despite my scepticism, for the moment let’s assume DI Cook was correct – and, anyway, it’s just about possible, at a stretch.
If Nevill goes downstairs, he has an advantage on Jeremy, even if injured. The stairs are narrow and steep and turn sharply. Jeremy can’t easily run down these stairs with a gun.
If Nevill reaches the kitchen before Jeremy, then he can reach the phone.
If he can reach the phone, then even if we assume Jeremy has opened the line, it would take mere seconds for Nevill to replace the receiver, lift the receiver, and dial three digits for the emergency services.
Even if Nevill cannot speak into the line due to his injuries, instinctively he would still go for the phone.
Yet we find:
(a). The kitchen door has no blood on it.
(b). The kitchen phone has no blood on it.
(c). There are only two blood prints on the worktop, found very near the kitchen phone.
We can conclude from (a), (b) and (c) that Nevill’s failure to ring 999, if that is what occurred, was a choice.
The major possibilities are:
(i). Jeremy is the killer and he stops Nevill at the point of a gun just as he reaches the phone and before he can dial 999.
(ii). Jeremy is the killer and he takes Nevill downstairs at gun point, which precludes Nevill going to the phone – obviously.
(iii). Jeremy is the killer and Nevill intercepts him at the very outset of the incident.
(iv). Sheila is the killer and Nevill is hesitant in dealing with her, giving Sheila an advantage and Nevill ends up incapacitated by fusillade before he can reach the phone.
I find (i) rather implausible on the evidence because, first, if Nevill reaches the worktop, then he would have to reach the phone. It would follow from this, in turn, that the blood prints must be Sheila’s, in which case Jeremy is innocent; but, there is a small possibility that Nevill reached the worktop and Jeremy pointed the gun at him at that instant. Otherwise, for (i) to be plausible, it would require that either Jeremy has cleaned the phone of blood or the police did. The reason Jeremy might do this is, having thought it all through, he decides that blood on the kitchen phone does not tie in with his staged call from Nevill.
Actually, the idea of the police cleaning blood on the phone, if anything, seems marginally more likely: this might have happened if one of the officers needed to make a call from the house and, having assumed it was an obvious murder-suicide case, didn’t bother recording that he had cleaned the phone of blood and didn’t preserve the cloth used to do this.
I also find (ii) somewhat implausible because there is no reason for Jeremy to have Nevill downstairs once Nevill is shot. It wouldn’t make sense. It also wouldn’t be in character for Nevill to go along.
To my mind, (iii) does not tally with the evidence. Why does Nevill end up shot in the master bedroom and/or on the main landing, and then dead back in the kitchen? It is possible that Jeremy rushes past Nevill and upstairs and then shoots at Nevill back down the stairs, and then they go back to the kitchen, but that doesn’t sound very likely when you consider that Nevill would be Jeremy’s main problem, and also the need for Jeremy to open the phone line and the risk that Nevill would dial 999.
However, (iv) does sound quite plausible. It could happen because Sheila has not yet attacked anybody other than Nevill. Nevill and Sheila could have been at stand-off in the kitchen, during which Nevill manages to rouse a sleepy Jeremy on the phone. When Nevill speaks to Jeremy, Sheila angrily rushes out of the kitchen in the direction of the stairs, perhaps intending to attack June. Running up the stairs would be difficult with the rifle, and so Nevill pretty much catches up with her. She turns and fires at Nevill as they are both on the stairs, maybe hits him, but he doesn’t realise he is injured as such. She starts coming back down the stairs with the gun pointed at him, there is lots of shouting, and probably June is roused and wondering what is going on. The two of them, Nevill and Sheila, end up back in the kitchen. He doesn’t ring 999 because it’s his mentally-ill daughter and he wants to grab the gun off her, but she fires again, and leaves him for dead.
One of the ways we could rescue the Crown’s case is if we say that Nevill did ring 999. There are four possibilities:
1. Nevill didn’t dial 999 and didn’t reach the phone (or chose not to go for the phone).
2. Nevill didn’t dial 999 but did reach the phone. Jeremy or the police wiped the blood off it for some reason.
3. Nevill did dial 999 but the call has not been recorded in police logs.
4. Nevill did dial 999 and the police have misled the court.
2 or 3 would assist the Crown. 1 could assist either side. 4 would assist the defence.
Let’s look at 2 and 3 and test them.
With 2, we’re imagining that Jeremy has just stopped Nevill as he reached and touched the phone. Would Jeremy wipe the blood off the phone? It seems rather unlikely. There’s blood all over the kitchen by this point, isn’t there? Plus, doesn’t Jeremy want people to think that Nevill used the phone? And would Jeremy really be ‘switched-on’ enough to realise that a clean phone would assist his story more?
Now, let’s consider 3. The scenario is that he have Nevill opening an emergency line, but due to his facial injuries, he can’t speak and he has Jeremy on top of him, so the call either ends or (more likely) the line is left open. Jeremy would notice this and after dealing with Nevill, he would close the line. It's here that we have the same problem as with 2 above. The phone was found clean and we’ve covered already why that’s not likely. Thus, possibility 3 is actually the same as possibility 2. The caveat to that dismissal is that, in fairness to the Crown, we would need to research a bit more before we can completely eliminate 3, as we would need to establish how abortive/broken emergency calls operated at that time. Depending on the outcome of this research, it may even be possible to trace the abortive call, if it was made - but that has to be considered unlikely.
The above ruminations are not fatal to the Crown’s case, but it does look like the prosecution are in trouble.
With that, now we come to consider the other two possibilities, 1 and 4.
This is where we look at the calls between, respectively, Jeremy and PC West and between PC West and Malcolm Bonnett.
To recap, PC West was a police officer based at Chelmsford Police Station.
Malcolm Bonnett was a civilian police call operator based at the communications centre in Essex Police HQ.
Regarding these two men, I am unclear on five things:
(i). Whether the HQ communications centre was also the designated ‘call control’ for Essex Police. I think we can assume it was, but if it wasn’t, then this means there may have been a further authorisation step for dispatch of vehicles.
(ii). Whether Malcolm Bonnet also fielded emergency police calls direct from the public. I think it follows that he did if the assumption in (i) is correct.
(iii). Whether PC West and Mr Bonnett communicated by phone or radio.
(iv). Whether PC West and Mr Bonnett were in fact based in the same building.
(v). Whether these audio communications were recorded. If they were, why they have not been released to the defence?
Now let us consider possibility 1: Nevill doesn’t reach the phone. If this was through choice on Nevill’s part, that would suggest one of two further possibilities:
1A: Jeremy is the killer and Nevill ran for the kitchen for a reason other than the phone.
1B: Sheila is the killer and Nevill hesitated.
The simplest way to proceed would be to try to eliminate possibility 1A. Was there something else in the kitchen, or that required him to go via the kitchen, that would have given Nevill a reason to run there? The guns were in a different direction – actually Nevill passed them on the way to the kitchen. Was the easier exit from the farmhouse via the kitchen? The nearest exit from the building via the main stairway was actually via the front door, which is in completely the opposite direction. It is also assumed that all doors were locked from the inside. How did Nevill imagine Jeremy had entered the property? It’s doubtful he would have been able to give the matter developed thought - and let's face it, if he's not interested in the phone, why wouldn't he just hide somewhere or struggle and fight upstairs? Assuming Jeremy was the killer, the argument that Nevill was running for the kitchen phone does seem compelling.
To consider possibility 1B requires only that we acknowledge that Nevill might not have dialled 999 in the face of a belligerent daughter, for the reasons already given. This logically all-but precludes the possibility of a 999 call from Nevill if Jeremy is innocent. Sheila would have no reason to wipe the phone and worktop clean.
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'DI Cook concluded that Nevill had been shot four times upstairs. I find this rather unlikely – for fairly obvious reasons'.
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Why do you not believe Bamber shot Nevill 4 times upstairs?
The bullet casings show -
Daniel 1
Nicholas 1
June 5
Nevill 4
Reload
Nevill 4
Daniel/Nicholas 6
Sheila 1
Reload
June 2
Sheila 1
All shots upstairs except Nevill's 4 kitchen shots.
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Looking at the house diagram, it seems that Nevill would have arrived at the front door first. If taking the nearest staircase from his bedroom.
If Bamber had disabled this door upon entry, Nevill would have gone to exit via the kitchen door. He was either caught before he arrived at the kitchen door. Or Bamber had disabled this door as well.
With Bamber in pursuit, he certainly would not try to phone the police.
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Suspect Nevill wanted to get outside. He had received 4 shots and did not know if Bamber had more bullets left. Besides which, a fully fit and clothed Bamber would also be physically attacking him.
Nevill getting outside may have been able to alert one of the farm workers. Which may have deterred Bamber.
The only thing Nevill may have had time to do in the kitchen, would be to get some sort of weapon. Such as a knife. The evidence shows he did not do this.
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Thanks, but I believe I have covered the above points in my long post, except the bullet casings which will be discussed elsewhere. For present purposes, I am adopting the working assumption that DI Cook was correct.
If Nevill was heading for the exit, how did he know the door would be unlocked? Was the door normally left unlocked? If not, did he have time to grab a key while Jeremy was firing at him and June? Where were the keys stored? Was there a key in the door, normally? If the keys were stored communally, was it just one key on one ring or were there several keys? And when he was running down the stairs, why didn't Nevill go for the nearer front door?
And how does he work the key if he has been shot in the arm? Wouldn't it have been awkward? Or maybe he just wasn't cognisant of his injuries?
More to the point, on his way to the kitchen Nevill runs past the washroom where there are guns. Why didn't he grab one? Is it because he was injured? Or maybe it's because he would have assumed any guns there were unloaded? But wouldn't he have instinctively grabbed a gun anyway and used it as a bludgeon? He was an RAF pilot once and must have received at least some basic combat training, and he was physically capable, even at 61. Wouldn't that very act of being in the washroom and holding a gun, with his blood on it, have blown Jeremy's plans apart? It's not as if Nevill is going to grab a gun under assault from Sheila.
Why didn't Nevill just hide or fight Jeremy upstairs? Why did he run downstairs at all, if the doors were locked? Was it just instinct? Why did he leave June and Sheila and the twins? Why not, for instance, barricade himself in the twins' room? Or just fight Jeremy? I realise there's an age gap, but Nevill has spent his life as a sharp-end farmer, Jeremy hadn't. Nevill must still have been at least as strong, if not stronger than, Jeremy.
I think if Jeremy is the killer, then Nevill was going for the phone in the kitchen. This is because Jeremy's plans are shot to pieces if Nevill reaches the phone and speaks to somebody, even if just for a few seconds. Even if Jeremy is chasing him with a gun, he has steep narrow stairs to contend with and it's awkward because he is holding a long rifle. Nevill is ahead of him and would have had the advantage for a crucial minute or so.
All Nevill has to do is establish an emergency line and speak to whoever answers and his first words would be: "Help! My son has gone beserk!". How long would that take? How many sons did Nevill have? Only one. If we assume Jeremy has opened the line, it would take maybe 10 seconds to close the line, open it again, dial three digits 999, wait a maximum of three rings for an answer, and speak.
The call would be recorded and it's game over.
Yet there are no blood marks on the phone and only isolated blood prints on the edge of the worktop with, I believe, some blood on the floor beneath. Interestingly, that blood is near the phone. It's as if somebody has cleaned the phone. Maybe Jeremy did, thinking that blood on the phone was inconsistent with his plan for a staged call from Nevill.
But why would he do things that way round? If there's blood on the phone, why would Jeremy risk getting his own blood prints on the phone by trying to clean the blood off? Why not just have Nevill ringing him after he has been shot? The answer to that is that the police would be suspicious if Nevill did so, wondering why he had not rung 999 instead. It's suspicious enough that he rang Jeremy before he had been shot, never mind after.
We have already covered why a 999 call from Nevill logically could not have occurred. Thus, to me, the solutions are one of these:
1. Jeremy is the killer, he stopped Nevill just as he was dialling 999 and he wiped Nevill's blood from the phone.
2. Sheila is the killer.
At the least, it takes some explaining to believe that Nevill doesn't make it to that phone.
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Thanks, but I believe I have covered the above points in my long post, except the bullet casings which will be discussed elsewhere. For present purposes, I am adopting the working assumption that DI Cook was correct.
If Nevill was heading for the exit, how did he know the door would be unlocked? Was the door normally left unlocked? If not, did he have time to grab a key while Jeremy was firing at him and June? Where were the keys stored? Was there a key in the door, normally? If the keys were stored communally, was it just one key on one ring or were there several keys? And when he was running down the stairs, why didn't Nevill go for the nearer front door?
And how does he work the key if he has been shot in the arm? Wouldn't it have been awkward? Or maybe he just wasn't cognisant of his injuries?
More to the point, on his way to the kitchen Nevill runs past the washroom where there are guns. Why didn't he grab one? Is it because he was injured? Or maybe it's because he would have assumed any guns there were unloaded? But wouldn't he have instinctively grabbed a gun anyway and used it as a bludgeon? He was an RAF pilot once and must have received at least some basic combat training, and he was physically capable, even at 61. Wouldn't that very act of being in the washroom and holding a gun, with his blood on it, have blown Jeremy's plans apart? It's not as if Nevill is going to grab a gun under assault from Sheila.
Why didn't Nevill just hide or fight Jeremy upstairs? Why did he run downstairs at all, if the doors were locked? Was it just instinct? Why did he leave June and Sheila and the twins? Why not, for instance, barricade himself in the twins' room? Or just fight Jeremy? I realise there's an age gap, but Nevill has spent his life as a sharp-end farmer, Jeremy hadn't. Nevill must still have been at least as strong, if not stronger than, Jeremy.
I think if Jeremy is the killer, then Nevill was going for the phone in the kitchen. This is because Jeremy's plans are shot to pieces if Nevill reaches the phone and speaks to somebody, even if just for a few seconds. Even if Jeremy is chasing him with a gun, he has steep narrow stairs to contend with and it's awkward because he is holding a long rifle. Nevill is ahead of him and would have had the advantage for a crucial minute or so.
All Nevill has to do is establish an emergency line and speak to whoever answers and his first words would be: "Help! My son has gone beserk!". How long would that take? How many sons did Nevill have? Only one. If we assume Jeremy has opened the line, it would take maybe 10 seconds to close the line, open it again, dial three digits 999, wait a maximum of three rings for an answer, and speak.
The call would be recorded and it's game over.
Yet there are no blood marks on the phone and only isolated blood prints on the edge of the worktop with, I believe, some blood on the floor beneath. It's not fatal to the Crown's case, but it takes some explaining to believe that Nevill doesn't make it to that phone.
How do you know there were loaded weapons in the washroom? Thought Nevill always put them away.
Nevill won't try to phone anyone if Bamber is 3 seconds behind him. His aim would be to escape, save his own life & alert other nearby people.
Nevill would head for the front or kitchen door. The evidence shows he was in the kitchen when attacked downstairs.
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Nevill may have gone straight to the kitchen to get some sort of weapon. The evidence shows he did not have time to get anything.
Nevill going downstairs to phone 999 & incriminate Bamber, does nothing to protect himself or anyone else from Bamber's massacre attempt.
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How do you know there were loaded weapons in the washroom? Thought Nevill always put them away.
Nevill won't try to phone anyone if Bamber is 3 seconds behind him. His aim would be to escape, save his own life & alert other nearby people.
Nevill would head for the front or kitchen door. The evidence shows he was in the kitchen when attacked downstairs.
The front door was nearer. Why isn't there blood on the inside handle of the front door?
If Nevill was heading for the kitchen door, why didn't he make it? He had the advantage on Jeremy. But let's assume he was heading for the door, you haven't addressed my questions about it being locked.
There were guns in the washroom/downstairs toilet and there were also guns found in the upstairs office and downstairs office.
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The front door was nearer. Why isn't there blood on the inside handle of the front door?
If Nevill was heading for the kitchen door, why didn't he make it? He had the advantage on Jeremy. But let's assume he was heading for the door, you haven't addressed my questions about it being locked.
There were guns in the washroom/downstairs toilet and there were also guns found in the upstairs office and downstairs office.
Can you provide a source that there were loaded weapons in the wash room.
What advantage did Nevill have over Bamber in getting to the kitchen door. He was bare footed and had just been shot 4 times?
Nevill didn't make it to the kitchen door because Bamber caught up with him.
Why should there be blood on the front door? Bamber shot him in the face & torso. Not the hands.
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Can you provide a source that there were loaded weapons in the wash room.
What advantage did Nevill have over Bamber in getting to the kitchen door. He was bare footed and had just been shot 4 times?
Nevill didn't make it to the kitchen door because Bamber caught up with him.
Why should there be blood on the front door? Bamber shot him in the face & torso. Not the hands.
Wouldn't Nevill touch his wounds?
You still haven't explained about the locks and keys. Were the Bambers in the habit of leaving the kitchen door unlocked? Did Nevill go to bed with the kitchen door key round his neck, just in case? Then did he remember and run for the kitchen with the key jangling round his neck? Did he just grab the key as Jeremy was firing at him and June?
Obviously I appreciate Nevill didn't make it to the kitchen door, but that's hardly the point. You are telling us that is where he is going, not for the phone, so please explain how he would have exited the farmhouse had he made it to that door. Did he have the key or not? Was he found with the key?
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The other option is Nevill did make it to the front & kitchen doors. But both had been disabled by Bamber. As previously said.
Either way the evidence shows Nevill had no time to get a kitchen weapon.
The claim that Nevill would have tried calling 999 in the middle of a massacre attempt, is a new one.
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The other option is Nevill did make it to the front & kitchen doors. But both had been disabled by Bamber. As previously said.
I think it is likely there would be blood. Of course, it is also possible there was and the police missed it or cleaned up without recording it.
Either way the evidence shows Nevill had no time to get a kitchen weapon.
What use would a knife be against an attacker with a rifle that still had bullets in it?
The claim that Nevill would have tried calling 999 in the middle of a massacre attempt, is a new one.
Then why do people say he was running for the phone? Who was he thinking of ringing, Pizza Hut? It doesn't hang together unless he was running for the phone or for the exit or for a gun. The fact is he wasn't carrying keys, he ran straight past the washroom where there were guns and he ignored the gun in the upstairs office, and he ran straight past the front door exit (assuming he even had keys).
If he was running to the kitchen to hide, why not hide upstairs? Why not fight and struggle with Jeremy upstairs?
Again, why leave June and Sheila and the twins unless to alert the authorities?
The physical evidence is that Jeremy is carrying a long-barrelled rifle (you say with a silencer on it as well) and he has to negotiate steep and narrow stairs. Nevill had the head-start and is fleeing for his life. Nevill has the advantage on the stairs, probably I would say a 20 to 30 second advantage on Jeremy. He could have easily reached the phone.
Now think about it - Jeremy reaches the kitchen and Nevill has already dialled. Does Jeremy fire at him or does he grapple with the phone?
Does Jeremy then clean the phone to remove any trace of that part of the struggle?
Probably what is needed is a time-and-motion study of the incident.
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Bamber disabling the front and kitchen doors, is simply taking the keys. Nevill or June would have locked both doors from the inside before going to bed.
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Bamber disabling the front and kitchen doors, is simply taking the keys. Nevill or June would have locked both doors from the inside before going to bed.
Where were the keys? Did the police comment on this?
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I think it is likely there would be blood. Of course, it is also possible there was and the police missed it or cleaned up without recording it.
What use would a knife be against an attacker with a rifle that still had bullets in it?
Then why do people say he was running for the phone? Who was he thinking of ringing, Pizza Hut? It doesn't hang together unless he was running for the phone or for the exit or for a gun. The fact is he wasn't carrying keys, he ran straight past the washroom where there were guns and he ignored the gun in the upstairs office, and he ran straight past the front door exit (assuming he even had keys).
If he was running to the kitchen to hide, why not hide upstairs? Why not fight and struggle with Jeremy upstairs?
Again, why leave June and Sheila and the twins unless to alert the authorities?
The physical evidence is that Jeremy is carrying a long-barrelled rifle (you say with a silencer on it as well) and he has to negotiate steep and narrow stairs. Nevill had the head-start and is fleeing for his life. Nevill has the advantage on the stairs, probably I would say a 20 to 30 second advantage on Jeremy. He could have easily reached the phone.
Now think about it - Jeremy reaches the kitchen and Nevill has already dialled. Does Jeremy fire at him or does he grapple with the phone?
Does Jeremy then clean the phone to remove any trace of that part of the struggle?
Probably what is needed is a time-and-motion study of the incident.
Only you say Nevill was running to a phone.
Agree unlikely Nevill was running to the kitchen to get a weapon. The evidence shows this.
Don't believe Nevill was running to the kitchen to hide. Bamber would be a few feet behind him.
Nevill went to the kitchen to get outside. Bamber either caught up with him before he got to the kitchen door. Or it had been disabled.
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Where were the keys? Did the police comment on this?
Bamber would have put the keys back into the doors. Before leaving.
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Bamber would have put the keys back into the doors. Before leaving.
Right. But did the raid group officers find the key on the inside of the door? I think it will be the same door they battered in, but was this noticed or checked?
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Delgado confirms in his statement that there was a key in the inside lock to the back door. That, then, provides a potential reason for Nevill running for the kitchen. But Nevill was in pyjamas and barefoot. What good could he have done running outside in the dark? Maybe he was running for the den instead (where I think the gun cupboard was, if I'm not mistaken)? He could have barricaded himself in there.
My further questions:
Why are there blood prints near the phone, and blood on the floor near the phone at the other side of the kitchen, discrete from the blood collected near Nevill? If Nevill didn't go for the phone, who left that blood there?
If Jeremy replaces the key on the back door, how does he get past Nevill's body to do this? My understanding is that Nevill's body blocked the interior door between the kitchen and back hallway. How does Jeremy do this without leaving blood on the floor?
If the gun cupboard was in the downstairs office/den, again, how does Jeremy get past Nevill's body to return the silencer? And how does Jeremy do this without leaving a trail of blood on the floor and in the gun cupboard? As far as I know, the only blood is found in the silencer itself.
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Delgado confirms in his statement that there was a key in the inside lock to the back door. That, then, provides a potential reason for Nevill running for the kitchen. But Nevill was in pyjamas and barefoot. What good could he have done running outside in the dark? Maybe he was running for the den instead (where I think the gun cupboard was, if I'm not mistaken)? He could have barricaded himself in there.
My further questions:
Why are there blood prints near the phone, and blood on the floor near the phone at the other side of the kitchen, discrete from the blood collected near Nevill? If Nevill didn't go for the phone, who left that blood there?
If Jeremy replaces the key on the back door, how does he get past Nevill's body to do this? My understanding is that Nevill's body blocked the interior door between the kitchen and back hallway. How does Jeremy do this without leaving blood on the floor?
If the gun cupboard was in the downstairs office/den, again, how does Jeremy get past Nevill's body to return the silencer? And how does Jeremy do this without leaving a trail of blood on the floor and in the gun cupboard? As far as I know, the only blood is found in the silencer itself.
Nevill may have been running to the office den. But didn't make it. The coal shed was also just outside the kitchen door. Again Nevill not making it there.
Nevill's body was not stopping Bamber putting the kitchen door key back.
I do not know where the gun cupboard was in the house.
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There is a cupboard in the downstairs hallway. More likely this was the gun cupboard. The office den being used just as an office.
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Nevill may have been running to the office den. But didn't make it. The coal shed was also just outside the kitchen door. Again Nevill not making it there.
Nevill's body was not stopping Bamber putting the kitchen door key back.
I do not know where the gun cupboard was in the house.
Actually I may have been misinformed about the position of Nevill's body or misremembered what I had read in the statements. I had thought that Nevill's body was blocking the inner kitchen door.
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There is a cupboard in the downstairs hallway. More likely this was the gun cupboard. The office den being used just as an office.
I've started a separate thread on this. I believe the gun cupboard was in Nevill's den. The belief that the cupboard was along the back hallway arises, I think, from Bird's 1991 COLP interview in which I am guessing he mistakes the den door in one of his photographs for a large cupboard door or stair access.
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You start off making a case but within seconds you are blaming it on Jeremy.
"If Nevill goes downstairs, he has an advantage on Jeremy, even if injured. The stairs are narrow and steep and turn sharply. Jeremy can’t easily run down these stairs with a gun.
If Nevill reaches the kitchen before Jeremy, then he can reach the phone.
If he can reach the phone, then even if we assume Jeremy has opened the line, it would take mere seconds for Nevill to replace the receiver, lift the receiver, and dial three digits for the emergency services."
Wouldn't you have to establish Jeremy was there first of all.
You also say it would take just seconds to dial 999. But that is wrong it was an old fashioned dial telephone 9 = the max rotation of the dial Couple of seconds per number if I remember correctly.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18681;image)
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That is a good point about the phone being a dial phone.
The gun cupboard was in Nevill's office den. Which was at the back of the kitchen.
Nevill may have been running to get a rifle. Bamber may retreat if Nevill points a rifle at him. If not Nevill has the option to shoot.
Or Nevill may have been running to exit through the kitchen door.
Nevill didn't make it to either. Bamber is not going to attack him again on narrow and steep stairs. But he was right behind Nevill. The last thing on Nevill's mind would be to call 999.
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We've never really had a complete and clear plan of the layout of the house, a full view of the kitchen and its position in relation to the den, neither have we ever seen any photographs of the lounge.
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You're just being nosy Steve ;D
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You start off making a case but within seconds you are blaming it on Jeremy.
"If Nevill goes downstairs, he has an advantage on Jeremy, even if injured. The stairs are narrow and steep and turn sharply. Jeremy can’t easily run down these stairs with a gun.
If Nevill reaches the kitchen before Jeremy, then he can reach the phone.
If he can reach the phone, then even if we assume Jeremy has opened the line, it would take mere seconds for Nevill to replace the receiver, lift the receiver, and dial three digits for the emergency services."
Wouldn't you have to establish Jeremy was there first of all.
You also say it would take just seconds to dial 999. But that is wrong it was an old fashioned dial telephone 9 = the max rotation of the dial Couple of seconds per number if I remember correctly.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18681;image)
You've completely misunderstood the basis of my post. I was discussing what could happen if Jeremy was the killer, which is surely what we need to do if we want to understand how plausible it is for Jeremy to be the killer. How else do you propose we discuss it?
Also, while you make a fair point about the phone, you've again slightly missed what I was getting at.
The point is: If there's no blood on the phone, that means he doesn't get to the phone. In the earlier posts, I was wondering why he didn't get to the phone if he managed to get to the kitchen.
Maybe it is as you say, that he knew it might take a while to dial, but I'm not sure it would. In fact, I'm fairly confident that you're wrong. I can just about remember those old phones, and anyway, even on the basis of what you say, it would not be long: a couple of seconds per number would just be six seconds. But it would need to be looked into. And it all has to fit with what happens upstairs. How much time would he have? Wouldn't he go for the phone anyway, especially if - as Adam claims - Jeremy had run out of ammunition?
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No blood on phone---call made to JB/EP before he was shot. Elementary my dear Watson.
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You've completely misunderstood the basis of my post. I was discussing what could happen if Jeremy was the killer, which is surely what we need to do if we want to understand how plausible it is for Jeremy to be the killer. How else do you propose we discuss it?
Also, while you make a fair point about the phone, you've again slightly missed what I was getting at.
The point is: If there's no blood on the phone, that means he doesn't get to the phone. In the earlier posts, I was wondering why he didn't get to the phone if he managed to get to the kitchen.
Maybe it is as you say, that he knew it might take a while to dial, but I'm not sure it would. In fact, I'm fairly confident that you're wrong. I can just about remember those old phones, and anyway, even on the basis of what you say, it would not be long: a couple of seconds per number would just be six seconds. But it would need to be looked into. And it all has to fit with what happens upstairs. How much time would he have? Wouldn't he go for the phone anyway, especially if - as Adam claims - Jeremy had run out of ammunition?
Do you not believe Bamber emptied the rifle in his first visit upstairs?
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Do you not believe Bamber emptied the rifle in his first visit upstairs?
I have already shown you that this is unlikely with reference to the evidence. See my earlier post about what happened in the twins' bedroom.
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I have already shown you that this is unlikely with reference to the evidence. See my earlier post about what happened in the twins' bedroom.
Seems surprising if Bamber went upstairs and didn't empty the rifle. Espescially after Nevill stood up.
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Seems surprising if Bamber went upstairs and didn't empty the rifle. Espescially after Nevill stood up.
I'm not saying he didn't empty the rifle. Obviously he must have done at some point. It's more a question of when (or at what point).
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QCChevalier I might be misunderstanding you, but as I believe at this point in time, it is the JB team that are the ones claiming there was a 999 call made as well as a call made to Jeremy.
"We want to understand how plausible it is for Jeremy to be the killer", no, because from the title of the thread I thought more along the lines "we want to understand how plausible it is for Nevill to ring 999", the title being" Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case".
Sheila may have ran out of ammunition. He comes down stairs to use the phone, would he dial 999 or Jeremy's number that seems a logical choice IMO.
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QCChevalier I might be misunderstanding you, but as I believe at this point in time, it is the JB team that are the ones claiming there was a 999 call made as well as a call made to Jeremy.
"We want to understand how plausible it is for Jeremy to be the killer", no, because from the title of the thread I thought more along the lines "we want to understand how plausible it is for Nevill to ring 999", the title being" Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case".
Sheila may have ran out of ammunition. He comes down stairs to use the phone, would he dial 999 or Jeremy's number that seems a logical choice IMO.
It does appear you are misunderstanding me. but I don't mind as I appreciate that there are lots of posts.
I want to know how plausible it is for Nevill to ring 999 because I want to know how plausible it is for Jeremy to be the killer, and this is one question I want to explore. There are hundreds of questions. This is one.
When I talk in terms of 'Jeremy did this...' and 'If Sheila did this...', that may seem confusing. It's because I'm walking through scenarios hypothetically to see how they match the evidence we have. It doesn't mean I think Jeremy is the killer or Sheila is the killer just because I am mentioning them as the killer. It's an exploration, not a definitive legal statement.
Also, as I've said before, the claim that Nevill may have rung 999 need not be just of help to the defence. It could help the prosecution. It all depends on two things:
(i). The timing of the abortive 999 call.
(ii). Why the existence of such a call has not been disclosed.
Equally, the claim that there wasn't a 999 call need not just be of help to the prosecution. It could in fact help the defence - for the reasons I've already explored in the thread. You see, if you stop and think about it, a 999 call actually makes more sense from the point-of-view of Jeremy being the killer, but it would have to be a broken/abortive call, or a situation where Nevill can't quite make the call (perhaps due to the slow dial, as you mentioned). Yet there was no blood found on the phone.
There is also the fact that Nevill was shot twice in the face, but that does not preclude a 999 call. It would only prevent him from speaking coherently, or at all, into the phone, it would not stop him making the call. Actually, the shots to the neck/shoulder and arm would probably present more of a difficulty in this respect.
Just for the abundance of clarify (because I know somebody will come along and misconstrue this): No, I am not suggesting there was a 999 call. In fact, in the original post, I give a possible logical explanation as to why there could not have been.
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What are you on about?
Fact: Jeremy made the call to the Police around 3:26 AM - you don't doubt that do you?
So if Jeremey did the shooting it would have to have been before that - do you agree?
So tell me when could this 999 call have been made by Nevill to the police from WHF if Jeremy was the shooter?
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I think his point would be that it was an abortive call made by his fingers dialling 999 just before Jeremy caught up with him in the kitchen. Jeremy would then have to wipe the telephone clean of Nevill's blood.
Of course it's all hypothetical, and some would say hypothetical nonsense.
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What are you on about?
Fact: Jeremy made the call to the Police around 3:26 AM - you don't doubt that do you?
So if Jeremey did the shooting it would have to have been before that - do you agree?
So tell me when could this 999 call have been made Nevill to the police from WHF if Jeremy was the shooter?
Before 3.26 a.m., presumably. And that may be why Jeremy rang them at 3.26 a.m., or at all.
But I haven't said Nevill did. Please read my last two posts and again, think about them, and try and understand. If you still don't understand, possibly we're wasting our time.
You state that it is a fact that Jeremy called the police at 3.26 a.m. Forgive me, but I'm not sure that is accepted as fact by all reasonable people who have looked at this.
Let's say Jeremy is the killer, I haven't said that this means Nevill had to ring 999. Nor have I said he didn't. Nor have I said that Nevill would ring 999 in any event. But let's say Jeremy caught him at the phone or in the middle of a call that was never completed, maybe because he couldn't speak into the phone due to his injuries. This may then be what prompted Jeremy to call the police - it may be what gave him the impetus for the alibi. that in addition to the awkward fact of Nevill being found in the kitchen at all.
But I only speculate. I'm only exploring and asking questions.
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I think his point would be that it was an abortive call made by his fingers dialling 999 just before Jeremy caught up with him in the kitchen. Jeremy would then have to wipe the telephone clean of Nevill's blood.
Of course it's all hypothetical, and some would say hypothetical nonsense.
But I'm not asserting it happened, Steve. I'm just exploring ideas.
Why is this Forum such a pressure cooker with people on at each other? Why can't people ask questions?
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But I'm not asserting it happened, Steve. I'm just exploring ideas.
Why is this Forum such a pressure cooker with people on at each other? Why can't people ask questions?
..because you're far too touchy. All these issues have been explored in previous threads, hence the comparative low number of hits. Despite your assertion I can assure you that most of the troublemakers have either been banned or left of their own accord.
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..because you're far too touchy. All these issues have been explored in previous threads, hence the comparative low number of hits. Despite your assertion I can assure you that most of the troublemakers have either been banned or left of their own accord.
Not true, but my approach to debate is to listen to what other people say. Yours (and it seems, that of 'Rob') is to be rude and dismissive and not bother reading previous posts.
Furthermore, these ideas have not been explored in previous threads, at least not in the sense I am here. And even if they have, who are you to come on here and tell people what they should and should not discuss? Could you please explain what authority you have to do that, who granted you this authority and when?
I think you need to examine your own attitude, Teacher Steve. I think you've spent far too long talking over people and not enough time stopping to listen.
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Not true, but my approach to debate is to listen to what other people say. Yours (and it seems, that of 'Rob') is to be rude and dismissive and not bother reading previous posts.
Furthermore, these ideas have not been explored in previous threads, at least not in the sense I am here. And even if they have, who are you to come on here and tell people what they should and should not discuss.
I think you need to examine your own attitude, Teacher Steve. I think you've spent far too long talking over people and not enough time stopping to listen.
I'm not saying that at all. You can discuss anything you like Sir.
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I am going to ignore the weirdos.
Let me just set out one possibility. I stress it's only hypothetical and I don't say that I myself believe it.
1. Jeremy is the killer.
2. Let's say, for argument's sake, it's 2.30 a.m.
3. Nevill makes it the kitchen phone somehow.
4. Nevill manages to make a 999 call, but he finds he can't speak into the phone.
5. Jeremy finds him in the kitchen, then drags him away from the phone and kills him.
6. Jeremy guesses reasonably that Nevill was calling 999 and realises that Nevill hasn't spoken into the phone. He terminates the call, or it was terminated at the other end.
7. Jeremy wipes the phone clean, for whatever reason. Probably because he has his blood prints on it, albeit he may have been wearing gloves (gloves can still leave prints and this would be obvious to him).
8. Jeremy decides he will make a call of his own that will be fake, so as to set up a plausible scenario as to why Nevill was found in the kitchen and had not called 999.
The above could also explain why Jeremy seems so certain that Nevill made a 999 call. It could be that Jeremy knows for a fact Nevill made such a call (it's at least a reasonable assumption) and also guesses (again, quite reasonably) that there will be no record to show that the call was made much earlier in the morning than he claims, as it was an abortive call and probably no record exists of it. He can just simply say Essex Police did not record it or there was confusion on the part of Bonnett and West.
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The CT are saying Nevill phoned Chelmsford police station. The fifth furthest away police station. Which would take a long time to do with a dial up phone.
It is just to create publicity.
Why would Nevill want to dial 999 while being chased directly after being shot 4 times?
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The CT are saying Nevill phoned Chelmsford police station. The fifth furthest away police station. Which would take a long time to do with a dial up phone.
It is just to create publicity.
Why would Nevill want to dial 999 while being chased directly after being shot 4 times?
Well, yes. But possibly he was running to the phone anyway? It doesn't have to make sense, as subjectively it's a crazy situation to start with. Or maybe he was trying to escape, as you say. But if we say he was trying to escape, would he do that with the family still in the house? I'm not entirely comfortable with that part of it.
I see what you mean about Nevill ringing a police station, but on the other hand, Nevill was a magistrate and I think it is reasonable to assume that he would want to contain any critical incident and speak to somebody he knows, if possible. I'm not saying that's the truth of what happened, I just think it is a reasonable possibility.
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Well, yes. But possibly he was running to the phone anyway? It doesn't have to make sense, as subjectively it's a crazy situation to start with. Or maybe he was trying to escape, as you say. But if we say he was trying to escape, would he do that with the family still in the house? I'm not entirely comfortable with that part of it.
I see what you mean about Nevill ringing a police station, but on the other hand, Nevill was a magistrate and I think it is reasonable to assume that he would want to contain any critical incident and speak to somebody he knows, if possible. I'm not saying that's the truth of what happened, I just think it is a reasonable possibility.
The gun cupboard was in Nevill's office den at the back of the kitchen.
Or he may have wanted to get outside to contact someone like Len Foakes.
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The gun cupboard was in Nevill's office den at the back of the kitchen.
Or he may have wanted to get outside to contact someone like Len Foakes.
Yes, either is of course possible.
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Before 3.26 a.m., presumably. And that may be why Jeremy rang them at 3.26 a.m., or at all.
But I haven't said Nevill did. Please read my last two posts and again, think about them, and try and understand. If you still don't understand, possibly we're wasting our time.
You state that it is a fact that Jeremy called the police at 3.26 a.m. Forgive me, but I'm not sure that is accepted as fact by all reasonable people who have looked at this.
Let's say Jeremy is the killer, I haven't said that this means Nevill had to ring 999. Nor have I said he didn't. Nor have I said that Nevill would ring 999 in any event. But let's say Jeremy caught him at the phone or in the middle of a call that was never completed, maybe because he couldn't speak into the phone due to his injuries. This may then be what prompted Jeremy to call the police - it may be what gave him the impetus for the alibi. that in addition to the awkward fact of Nevill being found in the kitchen at all.
But I only speculate. I'm only exploring and asking questions.
Well you decide on a time that Jeremy rang the police, I had to think about it for a moment and some reason 3:26 AM popped into my head. I think that was the time recorded on the police log. Right I might be slowly getting your drift. You might be trying to prove it was at all times impossible for Nevill to have time or the ability to dial 999 before, during or after the shooting. ( I think after the shooting is fairly certain IMO.)
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I see on another thread you answer your own question
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10302.msg480503.html#msg480503
"The reason I think Nevill didn't dial 999 is because there is no blood on the kitchen phone. The issue isn't really whether he dialled 999 but whether he made it to the phone. It seems to me it would be instinctive for him to do this under attack from Jeremy, regardless of injuries; either that, or flee the house. But he would be fleeing the house bare-foot in his pyjamas. "
But from the statement by Jeremy the phone call from Neville sounded more like that Nevill was not injured at the time. No blood on the phone for when he made the call to Jeremy he wasn't injured yet. Your argument fails then doesn't it.
Once again without evidence you put the blame on Jeremy when you write: "It seems to me it would be instinctive for him to do this under attack from Jeremy, ..."
Your observation "But he would be fleeing the house bare-foot in his pyjamas" is a possibility, so I suggest he was heading toward a pair of gumboots firstly. Where were the farm boots kept?
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I see on another thread you answer your own question
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10302.msg480503.html#msg480503
"The reason I think Nevill didn't dial 999 is because there is no blood on the kitchen phone. The issue isn't really whether he dialled 999 but whether he made it to the phone. It seems to me it would be instinctive for him to do this under attack from Jeremy, regardless of injuries; either that, or flee the house. But he would be fleeing the house bare-foot in his pyjamas. "
But from the statement by Jeremy the phone call from Neville sounded more like that Nevill was not injured at the time. No blood on the phone for when he made the call to Jeremy he wasn't injured yet. Your argument fails then doesn't it.
Once again without evidence you put the blame on Jeremy when you write: "It seems to me it would be instinctive for him to do this under attack from Jeremy, ..."
Your observation "But he would be fleeing the house bare-foot in his pyjamas" is a possibility, so I suggest he was heading toward a pair of gumboots firstly. Where were the farm boots kept?
What argument? What blame? I'm not putting the blame on anybody. You're just not understanding the context of the comment. It's a hypothetical. You're just not understanding where I'm coming from. You've grabbed hold of the wrong end of the stick.
Hypothetically, again, why couldn't Jeremy have wiped the phone clean? I suggest that above, actually. But I'm not suggesting that happened, I'm just exploring possibilities.
I'm not making allegations or arguments or definitive factual statements or conclusions. I'm just hypothesising.
Get it?
No offence, but this is getting like Monty Python.
Any chance you could refrain from commenting on my posts? Just for the sake of my own f-ing sanity..??
Before Steve jumps in and says I'm being defensive or hyper-sensitive, I'm not. I don't have the time to explain the explanation of the explanation of what I've already explained. This is turning into comedy.
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I use the definition of argument as "a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory.
"there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal".
it is not an argument, like angry etc. but your reasons supporting an idea.
As soon as you say Jeremy was there you are in fact blaming him, yet I've still seen no evidence he was there. For example "It seems to me it would be instinctive for him to do this under attack from Jeremy." Was that hypothetically speaking?
"hypothesizing" maybe but it doesn't seem like that to me.
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What argument? What blame? I'm not putting the blame on anybody. You're just not understanding the context of the comment. It's a hypothetical. You're just not understanding where I'm coming from. You've grabbed hold of the wrong end of the stick.
Hypothetically, again, why couldn't Jeremy have wiped the phone clean? I suggest that above, actually. But I'm not suggesting that happened, I'm just exploring possibilities.
I'm not making allegations or arguments or definitive factual statements or conclusions. I'm just hypothesising.
Get it?
No offence, but this is getting like Monty Python.
Any chance you could refrain from commenting on my posts? Just for the sake of my own f-ing sanity..??
Before Steve jumps in and says I'm being defensive or hyper-sensitive, I'm not. I don't have the time to explain the explanation of the explanation of what I've already explained. This is turning into comedy.
This site is named the Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion, not the Jeremy Bamber monologue with a few misspelt Latin terms thrown in for good measure. I have lost count now of the number of members you have insulted or offended in some way.
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Definitely not me. QC seems to be the only member leaning towards Jeremy being guilty that is not obsessed, obnoxious and rude.
He keeps posting scenarios for guilt and innocence and also makes it quite clear there was never enough evidence available to convict Jeremy anyway.
We don’t agree about the police not going out of there way to convict a person knowing they are innocent but the forum is for debate and it’s not here for Steve or Mary Mugford to promote the low life that we get fed up of hearing about Julie Mugford
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I use the definition of argument as "a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory.
"there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal".
it is not an argument, like angry etc. but your reasons supporting an idea.
As soon as you say Jeremy was there you are in fact blaming him, yet I've still seen no evidence he was there. For example "It seems to me it would be instinctive for him to do this under attack from Jeremy." Was that hypothetically speaking?
"hypothesizing" maybe but it doesn't seem like that to me.
I can't really waste any more of my time on this, sorry. I've explained that I'm not blaming anybody. I can't help how you misinterpret my posts, motives and intentions.
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This site is named the Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion, not the Jeremy Bamber monologue with a few misspelt Latin terms thrown in for good measure. I have lost count now of the number of members you have insulted or offended in some way.
I'm new to all this, but somebody has this morning sent me by PM a link to the activities of "Rob" on a different forum and they think he's pulling my plonker. I'm not sure, but he's definitely got the wrong end of the stick and he started by being insolent towards me. I've replied in kind.
Now, could you name these people I have offended, please? And quote the offensive posts, with links to the threads for context? Then we can see your evidence for ourselves. I've certainly insulted you, because you insulted me, but I doubt that your accusation that I have insulted others will stand up to much. For instance, you previously alleged that I have insulted Lookout, but I had done no such thing. That was just you trying to stir up trouble.
You are a stone cold liar, Steve.
I rely on evidence when I make accusations. When I say you're a liar, I quote your lies. When I say you're a hypocrite, I quote your special comedy posts and refer members of the Forum to your tendency towards haughtily critiquing the same behaviour in others.
In short, I've nailed you, Steve.
You know, I ought to start two new threads:
One will be called Comedian Steve's "Droll" Sense of Humour. We can all then look at how over the years you have made jokes about the case while tastelessly posting under that avatar, showing two murder victims and their father.
I must confess, however, that this will only be a small selection of Comedian Steve's droll contributions to the comedy field because, to be honest, I skip or ignore the vast majority of his posts in the archives. Sorry, but I can only read so much Sons and Lovers.
I then should start a thread called Views On Disingenuous Steve, containing posts from numerous contributors who have grown sick of you - most of them have thrown in the towel and left.
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You can start as many threads as you like. Despite your persecution complex nobody is stopping you. Once you stick your head above the parapet prepare to be challenged. If you can't see the personal remarks that you have made not just about me but other members (and I have personal messages on the subject in my Inbox which I am not going to divulge or they wouldn't remain personal) then you are the one who is touched.
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I can't really waste any more of my time on this, sorry. I've explained that I'm not blaming anybody. I can't help how you misinterpret my posts, motives and intentions.
That is a shame for I'm also neutral in my view on the case.
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You can start as many threads as you like. Despite your persecution complex nobody is stopping you. Once you stick your head above the parapet prepare to be challenged. If you can't see the personal remarks that you have made not just about me but other members (and I have personal messages on the subject in my Inbox which I am not going to divulge or they wouldn't remain personal) then you are the one who is touched.
Thanks Susan, sorry, Helen, sorry I mean Julie. Oh wait, no, Douglas. No, sorry, I mean Steve. I do get you cosy housemates mixed up! Easily done.
Anyway, again, here we see from.....Steve??....the classic behaviour of the abuser. Gas lighting.
It's me with that persecution complex again! It's nothing to do with anything that Helen, sorry Julie, sorry Steve has actually said. I'm imagining it all.
What personal comments have I made about other members, then? Give us some links or quotes. It must be damning stuff. Be sure to link to the relevant threads, so that we can see the context.
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That is a shame for I'm also neutral in my view on the case.
You may be genuine, but the problem is that Steve has poisoned the Forum and that explains my knee-jerk reaction. I'm just here to discuss the case. Steve has an agenda, and he abuses people. It's his long-term project. He is now roping people in as a gang to get me banned from the Forum, using the PM system for this purpose.
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You may be genuine, but the problem is that Steve has poisoned the Forum and that explains my knee-jerk reaction. I'm just here to discuss the case. Steve has an agenda, and he abuses people. It's his long-term project. He is now roping people in as a gang to get me banned from the Forum, using the PM system for this purpose.
We'll let the wider membership decide.
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We'll let the wider membership decide.
I'm sure you will, Steve. I'm sure that you have been busy PM'ing the 'wider membership' (i.e. people you think you can manipulate).
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I'm sure you will, Steve. I'm sure that you have been busy PM'ing the 'wider membership' (i.e. people you think you can manipulate).
I haven't but have had feedback negative to yourself.
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I haven't but have had feedback negative to yourself.
Of course, Disingenuous Steve. I'm sure your friends have told you as much privately.
And of course, you're entirely blameless, as usual.
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You may be genuine, but the problem is that Steve has poisoned the Forum and that explains my knee-jerk reaction. I'm just here to discuss the case. Steve has an agenda, and he abuses people. It's his long-term project. He is now roping people in as a gang to get me banned from the Forum, using the PM system for this purpose.
Banned OK that seems harsh.