Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: guest29835 on July 03, 2020, 02:50:PM
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I lean towards 'Guilty', based on a mix of reason, suspicion and intuition, but I'm struggling.
One thing that puzzles me is how he did it. Honestly, I just can’t figure it out and I’m not sure that if I was on a jury hearing this evidence I could even convict him. It’s not enough to say ‘Sheila didn’t do it, ergo Jeremy did’. That’s not proof. There can still be doubt.
The questions about the scenario are numerous.
How does he move Sheila into the master bedroom without leaving any forensic trace in the second bedroom or the landing?
If Sheila was already in the master bedroom, how come she isn’t covered in June’s blood? How come she wasn’t accidentally shot by Jeremy in the arm or torso or between the eyes? Assuming Sheila somehow dodges that bullet while Jeremy is firing at June, what does Sheila do while Jeremy is downstairs struggling with Nevill? Does she just sit and wait for Jeremy? Does she help June and get covered in June’s blood, or does she go to the twins and discover them dead and fight Jeremy? Or does she find the twins still alive and runs and hides with them somewhere?
And if she ran to June or went and hid with the twins, how come she is so clean?
Ironically, isn’t the fact she is clean actually a possible indicator of suicide, per Professor Knight’s evidence?
Don’t misunderstand me: I think he did it, but I’m trying to get my head round it.
It just doesn’t make sense.
One possible answer is that she was heavily sedated, but if she was sedated to that extent, then how does Jeremy coerce her to the master bedroom? And wouldn’t Jeremy be wary of such a plan, knowing that other people – including Sheila’s own doctors – would know she was sedated and (as some claim) lacking in motor skills?
But was she sedated, really? And what exactly does ‘sedated’ mean? I always think it’s a bit glib to rely on pseudo-terminology like that. We need to know what it means precisely.
I’m curious to know what Dr Vanezis thought about all this, as I view him as quite competent. Which is why I’ve asked for the missing page in Dr. Vanezis’ trial transcript because Jeremy’s lawyers are asking him to comment on Sheila’s medication and he says words to the effect: ‘OK, I’ll give the court an opinion, but I’m not a specialist in that area of medicine so take this with a pinch of salt’. Unfortunately, the next bit is missing.
Thanks.
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There was nothing found in Sheila's blood test which indicated any other sedation apart from what remained of her 3 week old injection of Haloperidol and a trace of cannabis. Neither were the rest of the family sedated in any way.
Not forgetting that her monthly injection had been halved anyway and wouldn't have had the same desired effect as would her full original measure and therefore would have left her with similar symptoms of psychosis of which she'd first been admitted with when her father drove her to the clinic in March.
Sheila had also omitted taking other medications one of which was to counteract the side-effects of the Haldol along with an anti-depressant. A decrease in medication can have the same symptoms as not having taken anything and given the type of mental illness that Sheila had would have rendered her to a ticking time bomb.
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There was nothing found in Sheila's blood test which indicated any other sedation apart from what remained of her 3 week old injection of Haloperidol and a trace of cannabis. Neither were the rest of the family sedated in any way.
Not forgetting that her monthly injection had been halved anyway and wouldn't have had the same desired effect as would her full original measure and therefore would have left her with similar symptoms of psychosis of which she'd first been admitted with when her father drove her to the clinic in March.
Sheila had also omitted taking other medications one of which was to counteract the side-effects of the Haldol along with an anti-depressant. A decrease in medication can have the same symptoms as not having taken anything and given the type of mental illness that Sheila had would have rendered her to a ticking time bomb.
Thanks. You know, while I think the ballistics (especially the silencer) are at the core of this case, I actually take the view that the Crown's case against Jeremy hinges on the whole 'sedation' issue. If it can be shown that Sheila could (I only say could) have been alert within the range of norm, then that would make the prosecution's scenario look much less plausible because you have to explain what Sheila was doing and - ironically - the fact she was found clean works in Jeremy's favour.
To be clear: I am not suggesting it would be impossible for Jeremy to do this, and I am not suggesting Jeremy is innocent or that Sheila did clean herself. It doesn't really matter what I think or believe in terms of hypotheticals. I only say that if Sheila was alert, then it would be difficult for Jeremy to have done this, perhaps so difficult that there is reasonable doubt.
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How Bamber committed the massacre. To match the evidence.
Cycle to WHF:
Evidence - June's bike brought over to Bamber's cottage just before massacre. Easy journey. Unseen.
Get into WHF
Evidence - Bathroom window loose or open. Quiet ground floor entrance. Bamber said he knew how to get in through this window.
Pick up rifle:
Evidence ' Rifle available as stated by Bamber.
Fire one bullet into each twin.
Evidence - Julie said the twins were shot first.
Enter main bedroom:
Evidence - Two adults in this room who must be killed with remaining 9 bullets as potential to provide most resistance.
Shoot an in bed June and Neville:
Evidence - 9 shots were fired in the main bedroom opening salvo suggesting rifle was emptied in opening salvo. June and Neville shot in or near the bed.
Go to reload or chase Neville:
Evidence - Spare bullets found in kitchen. Neville found in kitchen.
Kitchen fight:
Evidence - Neville was brutally beaten there. Upturned and smashed kitchen items. Scratch marks on aga.
Shoot and kill a knocked out Neville:
Evidence - Four kitchen head shots into Neville.
Reload. Return upstairs:
Evidence - All other shots upstairs.
Either wake and shoot or shoot an already awake Sheila:
Evidence - Sheila found shot in the corner of main bedroom. Sheila on Haloperidol so easy to control.
Shoot June twice more:
Evidence - June had moved a few feet. Final shots required. Two of June's 7 shots would have killed her quickly.
Reload, shoot the sleeping twins more times
Evidence - Twins shot 8 times in bed. Amount of bullets used shows two reloads carried out on the night.
Stage the scene:
Evidence - Gun and bible by Sheila. Silencer put in a box. Neville mounted onto a coal scuttle and back burnt to check for signs of life.
Exit out of kitchen window:
Evidence - Twenty sources say it can be banged shut from outside. Housekeeper said items moved by kitchen window.on night of massacre.
Cycle home:
Evidence - Bike found at Bambers cottage
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There was a box room in between the main bedroom and the twins bedroom. So no possibility of Nevill or June hearing two shots into the twins with the silencer attached.
The rifle held 11 bullets. Bamber would go upstairs fully loaded - 11 bullets.
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Bamber may have been going for an 11 shot massacre -
Daniel - 1
Nicholas - 1
June - 5
Nevill 3
Sheila 1
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The 5 random shots into June would highlight an out of control Sheila.
He would have wanted 3 head shots into Nevill. He managed 2 as Nevill started moving. Bamber stepped back & fired 2 shots into Nevill in a panic. Emptying the rifle. The second 2 shots hit Nevill's torso rather than head.
Once he had to reload once, he might as well go crazy.
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Thanks. You know, while I think the ballistics (especially the silencer) are at the core of this case, I actually take the view that the Crown's case against Jeremy hinges on the whole 'sedation' issue. If it can be shown that Sheila could (I only say could) have been alert within the range of norm, then that would make the prosecution's scenario look much less plausible because you have to explain what Sheila was doing and - ironically - the fact she was found clean works in Jeremy's favour.
To be clear: I am not suggesting it would be impossible for Jeremy to do this, and I am not suggesting Jeremy is innocent or that Sheila did clean herself. It doesn't really matter what I think or believe in terms of hypotheticals. I only say that if Sheila was alert, then it would be difficult for Jeremy to have done this, perhaps so difficult that there is reasonable doubt.
There's plenty of reasonable doubt to my mind over lots of things and this subject of sedation is only a drop in the ocean in comparison as are many pretty weak in their suggestions of how the crime was committed by Jeremy.
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@Adam
For now, my interest is in the plausibility of Sheila as a basis for overcoming the convictions separate to attacking the silencer evidence.
The major points against Sheila as the killer seem to be [I don't pretend this is exhaustive and ignore certain evidence like the Bible as I think the police messed around with the crime scene]:
1. Sheila had no meaningful experience with guns.
2. Sheila was not normally violent against people.
3. Sheila was uncoordinated or her motor skills were impaired or she was drowsy or totally sedated, or some variation on this theme, hence it's unlikely she did it.
4. A suicide shot would normally be intra-oral, but her two gunshot wounds are to the neck-throat region, suggesting staging. It was difficult enough for Jeremy to shoot her as it is, but much easier to shoot her in the neck/throat than intra-orally. Conversely, it is easier for Sheila to shoot herself intra-orally than in the neck/throat. Therefore, the wound locations point to Jeremy as the killer.
5. She had only very small traces of incriminating residues on her that could have got there through normal activities.
6. Nothing incriminating was found under her nails, despite a belief among the SOCO team at the time that she had committed suicide after struggling with Nevill, then killing him and the rest.
7. Only one recorded fingerprint on the rifle, despite a belief among the SOCO team at the time that she had committed suicide and killed the rest by using the rifle, including maybe two or three reloads.
Probably there are more points you can come up with, but that'll do us for now.
Can these points be assailed? Points 2 and 3 are of most interest because there is scope for fresh evidence on these.
I don't believe Jeremy can overcome point 4. The only reply I can think of is that maybe Sheila wanted to preserve her face and perhaps she had a mistaken belief that she could do so by shooting herself in the neck/throat rather than in the mouth, or maybe she didn't know how to kill herself by shooting in the mouth, but I'm not very convinced. Sorry to be morbid.
I think he can overcome 1, 5, 6 and 7. Points 1 and 7 can be waved away. Points 5 and 6, the problem of a lack of residue and traces under her nails, is easily addressed through Professor Knight's theory. If she cleaned herself, it would remove the forensic footprint, not totally, but to an extent that it might not be recorded by the police. As bizarre as it may sound, it is plausible that she would clean herself. Whether she really did or not doesn't matter for our purposes. The point is that it is plausible.
That just leaves point 2 and 3, which as I say are the ones where there is scope for fresh evidence.
On point 2, if expert evidence was forthcoming that confirmed she potentially could have had a violent psychotic episode of that magnitude, that would quash the conviction, though it probably wouldn't be sufficient for an acquittal should the Crown proceed to re-try the case.
Point 3 is the stronger of the two. If it can be shown that the sedation explanation for Sheila's actions is misconceived and she could have been alert, then I think there's reasonable doubt.
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There's plenty of reasonable doubt to my mind over lots of things and this subject of sedation is only a drop in the ocean in comparison as are many pretty weak in their suggestions of how the crime was committed by Jeremy.
Maybe so, but he's still in prison and you look for what you can. I think the 'sedation' issue is a hinge of the Crown's case. If doubt can be cast on it, then the prosecution case falls because an 'alert Sheila' cannot be explained without tremendous difficulty.
There is a case against him: I would put it at well over 90%, somewhere like 95%/96%. But my view is that it does not quite reach the bar of 'beyond reasonable doubt'. When you drill down into the detail, it doesn't quite hang together in the way that it needs to.
I'm not shocked that he was convicted, but I am quite surprised. Possibly he has suffered from bad or indifferent lawyering, or there is some other factor.
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Maybe so, but he's still in prison and you look for what you can. I think the 'sedation' issue is a hinge of the Crown's case. If doubt can be cast on it, then the prosecution case falls because an 'alert Sheila' cannot be explained without tremendous difficulty.
There is a case against him: I would put it at well over 90%, somewhere like 95%/96%. But my view is that it does not quite reach the bar of 'beyond reasonable doubt'. When you drill down into the detail, it doesn't quite hang together in the way that it needs to.
I'm not shocked that he was convicted, but I am quite surprised. Possibly he has suffered from bad or indifferent lawyering, or there is some other factor.
If you look at the evidence not just the last week of her life, where she had attended parties to keep up appearances, but since her illness and hospitalization you will find a scatty, disorganized individual redolent of a simple, ingenuous, gullible girl. There are numerous examples from the twins being late for school whilst in her care to the Tiptree visit to the final telephone call from Pamela to substantiate her lethargy. Sheila was led to her death like a lamb to the slaughter by an unscrupulous conman, who murdered his parents and spattered the blood of his twin nephews on the bedhead behind for a million pound inheritance and the possession of a £38,000 Porsche, which was on his mind only hours after the massacre.
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If you look at the evidence not just the last week of her life, where she had attended parties to keep up appearances, but since her illness and hospitalization you will find a scatty, disorganized individual redolent of a simple, ingenuous, gullible girl. There are numerous examples from the twins being late for school whilst in her care to the Tiptree visit to the final telephone call from Pamela to substantiate her lethargy. Sheila was led to her death like a lamb to the slaughter by an unscrupulous conman, who murdered his parents and spattered the blood of his twin nephews on the bedhead behind for a million pound inheritance and the possession of a £38,000 Porsche with which he hoped to pull the birds.
Thanks Steve. Interesting. It is what I have heard and read elsewhere. It is difficult because there is conflicting information. That's the problem, I suppose - there are so many different topics and issues that one could drill down and look at in greater depth. Not that I doubt what you say.
As I said above, my leaning is towards Guilt. My suspicion is that Jeremy did this pretty much as you outline but I differ from the conventional view on this in that I do not believe he planned it and I doubt the inheritance motive. I think he overestimated the lethality of the .22 Anschutz and bullets and found himself unexpectedly having to struggle with Nevill.
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Maybe so, but he's still in prison and you look for what you can. I think the 'sedation' issue is a hinge of the Crown's case. If doubt can be cast on it, then the prosecution case falls because an 'alert Sheila' cannot be explained without tremendous difficulty.
There is a case against him: I would put it at well over 90%, somewhere like 95%/96%. But my view is that it does not quite reach the bar of 'beyond reasonable doubt'. When you drill down into the detail, it doesn't quite hang together in the way that it needs to.
I'm not shocked that he was convicted, but I am quite surprised. Possibly he has suffered from bad or indifferent lawyering, or there is some other factor.
If I remember correctly the sedation issue is brought up in Dr Bradley's testimony
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9088.msg429208.html#msg429208 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9088.msg429208.html#msg429208)
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Thanks Steve. Interesting. It is what I have heard and read elsewhere. It is difficult because there is conflicting information. That's the problem, I suppose - there are so many different topics and issues that one could drill down and look at in greater depth. Not that I doubt what you say.
As I said above, my leaning is towards Guilt. My suspicion is that Jeremy did this pretty much as you outline but I differ from the conventional view on this in that I do not believe he planned it and I doubt the inheritance motive. I think he overestimated the lethality of the .22 Anschutz and bullets and found himself unexpectedly having to struggle with Nevill.
Do not believe he planned it?
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Do not believe he planned it?
He planned it in his head for months but may have dithered on the night. No consolation to Colin.
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Thanks. You know, while I think the ballistics (especially the silencer) are at the core of this case, I actually take the view that the Crown's case against Jeremy hinges on the whole 'sedation' issue. If it can be shown that Sheila could (I only say could) have been alert within the range of norm, then that would make the prosecution's scenario look much less plausible because you have to explain what Sheila was doing and - ironically - the fact she was found clean works in Jeremy's favour.
To be clear: I am not suggesting it would be impossible for Jeremy to do this, and I am not suggesting Jeremy is innocent or that Sheila did clean herself. It doesn't really matter what I think or believe in terms of hypotheticals. I only say that if Sheila was alert, then it would be difficult for Jeremy to have done this, perhaps so difficult that there is reasonable doubt.
Sheila would have been experiencing a pre-psychotic episode as she'd been quiet that night. The calm before the storm as this is classic behaviour of those who are about to strike. Coupled with a less than acceptable dose of Haldol which is a type of anti-psychotic that has to be reduced gradually and not halved in one go as it was done as that can be as dangerous as not having any at all.
The amount of stress that Sheila was under was enough to trigger a psychosis. I can't emphasise enough that over ten years of her life there was an abortion and a couple of mis-carriages before she had the twins and I doubt for one minute that Sheila had any sort of counselling for her losses and this is where her mental health issues would have stemmed from. Then her husband left her for another woman.
Then a mother who wasn't exactly supportive and who had mental health problems herself as for whatever reason she was visiting her GP regularly up until the tragedy. Then the only person in Sheila's life, her father, had shown more concern for his ailing wife so that Sheila had felt abandoned altogether .
Sheila would have only been partially aware if at all at what she was doing on the night of the murders because her mind would have been cut off from reality which is why she also killed her sons. There'd have been no planning involved just a sudden impulse as befits those who have psychosis and all are different in their actions/ signs of an impending attack.
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He planned it in his head for months but may have dithered on the night. No consolation to Colin.
Once he fired his first shot into the twins, it was too late to dither.
The rifle would have been fully loaded when going upstairs. He would need all the bullets. No point in it being partially loaded.
Eleven bullets would have been fired in the first main bedroom salvo if he had not fired 2 bullets into the twins first.
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Sheila would have been experiencing a pre-psychotic episode as she'd been quiet that night. The calm before the storm as this is classic behaviour of those who are about to strike. Coupled with a less than acceptable dose of Haldol which is a type of anti-psychotic that has to be reduced gradually and not halved in one go as it was done as that can be as dangerous as not having any at all.
The amount of stress that Sheila was under was enough to trigger a psychosis. I can't emphasise enough that over ten years of her life there was an abortion and a couple of mis-carriages before she had the twins and I doubt for one minute that Sheila had any sort of counselling for her losses and this is where her mental health issues would have stemmed from. Then her husband left her for another woman.
Then a mother who wasn't exactly supportive and who had mental health problems herself as for whatever reason she was visiting her GP regularly up until the tragedy. Then the only person in Sheila's life, her father, had shown more concern for his ailing wife so that Sheila had felt abandoned altogether .
Sheila would have only been partially aware if at all at what she was doing on the night of the murders because her mind would have been cut off from reality which is why she also killed her sons. There'd have been no planning involved just a sudden impulse as befits those who have psychosis and all are different in their actions/ signs of an impending attack.
Thanks.
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If I remember correctly the sedation issue is brought up in Dr Bradley's testimony
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9088.msg429208.html#msg429208 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9088.msg429208.html#msg429208)
Thanks. Could this be added to the statements archive, please? I don't recall seeing it there.
That evidence is not good for the Crown. Not fatal, because Dr Bradley did not treat Sheila, but it doesn't look good for the prosecution when a psychiatrist is less-than-confident about a crucial premise of their entire case.
The problem is that a general psychiatrist, even one who treated Sheila directly, would not necessarily be able to comment expertly on the pharmacological aspects. Did the Defence consult, even call, pharmacological experts? Did the Crown? Did the police even? I would think you would need two: one at the manufacturing end and another at the academic end to comment on mass effects and experimental studies, assuming research was even done. Was any research done into the initial development and testing of the psychotropic?
Could we have here the unusual and paradoxical situation of a mass murderer with an unsafe conviction? A bit like Bain, who looks guilty as sin, but was convicted on rocky evidence. The only English precedent that comes to mind is the John Bodkin Adams case, where the reversed happened: that was, most probably, an error of impunity.
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P. S.
I've noticed that at the end of Bradley's examination, he answers a question from the judge ambiguously. Is Dr. Bradley saying he would have reduced the dose or wouldn't have done? It's not clear, but my initial reaction is that he is saying he would not have reduced the dose. Perhaps doesn't matter terribly one way or the other, since Dr. Bradley wasn't treating her and clinical assessments in psychiatry are quite subjective.
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Thanks. Could this be added to the statements archive, please? I don't recall seeing it there.
That evidence is not good for the Crown. Not fatal, because Dr Bradley did not treat Sheila, but it doesn't look good for the prosecution when a psychiatrist is less-than-confident about a crucial premise of their entire case.
The problem is that a general psychiatrist, even one who treated Sheila directly, would not necessarily be able to comment expertly on the pharmacological aspects. Did the Defence consult, even call, pharmacological experts? Did the Crown? Did the police even? I would think you would need two: one at the manufacturing end and another at the academic end to comment on mass effects and experimental studies, assuming research was even done. Was any research done into the initial development and testing of the psychotropic?
Could we have here the unusual and paradoxical situation of a mass murderer with an unsafe conviction? A bit like Bain, who looks guilty as sin, but was convicted on rocky evidence. The only English precedent that comes to mind is the John Bodkin Adams case, where the reversed happened: that was, most probably, an error of impunity.
The drug in question (Haloperidol) is known to make people homicidal and suicidal. Sheila using it does not have any merit to the guilt narrative.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8439.msg401967.html#msg401967 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8439.msg401967.html#msg401967)
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There was some controversy about this drug in the late 90's I think as I remember reading conflicting reports about it even to the point of its removal from the market.
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Thanks to you both for the information. Again, if not there already, we could do with the thread in David's link adding to the archive.
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The drug in question (Haloperidol) is known to make people homicidal and suicidal. Sheila using it does not have any merit to the guilt narrative.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8439.msg401967.html#msg401967 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8439.msg401967.html#msg401967)
I don't see any of these case studies as comparable to Sheila's predicament. And please make your mind up whether she was under or overmedicated.
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I don't see any of these case studies as comparable to Sheila's predicament. And please make your mind up whether she was under or overmedicated.
I'm not sure it's that simple. Having looked into this further, it seems that Haloperidol is not regarded as an optimum sedative. Sheila's complaint about it, which initiated the reduction in the monthly intramuscular dosage, was that the drug was making her sleepy, which is not quite the same thing; but even so, if that was regarded as the reason for the reduction in dosage, then it's difficult to see how the fact helps the Crown's case. Whether the drug causes or contributes to violent thoughts, ideations and behaviour is a different question and those contraindications have a different relationship to dosage. Could halving Sheila's dosage make her violent?
One crucial point in all this is that on reviewing the trial evidence of Dr. Wilkinson and Dr. Angeloglou, it seems that Dr. Ferguson was a continuing guiding influence in Sheila's treatment regimen. Dr. Angeloglou states that Sheila was supposed to be taking Procyclidene to counteract the sleepiness and he had prescribed her some in April, but I think he assumed that she wasn't taking it. Yet it seems that the defence psychiatric expert, Dr. Bradley, was sceptical about the decision to reduce Sheila's monthly Haloperidol dosage from 200mg. Perhaps this is because Dr. Bradley had the benefit of hindsight and Haloperidol has serious interactions with illicit drugs, which can act as contraindications. Wasn't Sheila involved in drugs?
Furthermore, Dr. Angeloglou states that the dosage should have been reduced to 150mg, not 100mg, implying that his colleague, Dr. Wilkinson, had errored. It could equally be that Sheila had asked her to reduce the dosage still further, as there is a clinical bias towards conservatism with Haloperidol. It's not clear, and it's not clear if the overall decision to reduce her dosage was an instruction from Dr. Ferguson or Dr. Angeloglou own's clinical judgement having received advice from Dr. Ferguson. Dr. Angeloglou also mentions that Sheila was asked whether she was taking illicit drugs and she denied it; the clinical consequences of this are carefully left open but the implication seems to be that her treatment regimen was based on an assumption that she was not involved in drugs.
Dr Ferguson did give evidence at trial because this is referred to in the examination of Dr Bradley, who was present when the evidence was given, yet I don't see a transcript in the archive. Is there one available?
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I'm not sure it's that simple. Having looked into this further, it seems that Haloperidol is not regarded as an optimum sedative. Sheila's complaint about it, which initiated the reduction in the monthly intramuscular dosage, was that the drug was making her sleepy, which is not quite the same thing; but even so, if that was regarded as the reason for the reduction in dosage, then it's difficult to see how the fact helps the Crown's case. Whether the drug causes or contributes to violent thoughts, ideations and behaviour is a different question and those contraindications have a different relationship to dosage. Could halving Sheila's dosage make her violent?
One crucial point in all this is that on reviewing the trial evidence of Dr. Wilkinson and Dr. Angeloglou, it seems that Dr. Ferguson was a continuing guiding influence in Sheila's treatment regimen. Dr. Angeloglou states that Sheila was supposed to be taking Procyclidene to counteract the sleepiness and he had prescribed her some in April, but I think he assumed that she wasn't taking it. Yet it seems that the defence psychiatric expert, Dr. Bradley, was sceptical about the decision to reduce Sheila's monthly Haloperidol dosage from 200mg. Perhaps this is because Dr. Bradley had the benefit of hindsight and Haloperidol has serious interactions with illicit drugs, which can act as contraindications. Wasn't Sheila involved in drugs?
Furthermore, Dr. Angeloglou states that the dosage should have been reduced to 150mg, not 100mg, implying that his colleague, Dr. Wilkinson, had errored. It could equally be that Sheila had asked her to reduce the dosage still further, as there is a clinical bias towards conservatism with Haloperidol. It's not clear, and it's not clear if the overall decision to reduce her dosage was an instruction from Dr. Ferguson or Dr. Angeloglou own's clinical judgement having received advice from Dr. Ferguson. Dr. Angeloglou also mentions that Sheila was asked whether she was taking illicit drugs and she denied it; the clinical consequences of this are carefully left open but the implication seems to be that her treatment regimen was based on an assumption that she was not involved in drugs.
Dr Ferguson did give evidence at trial because this is referred to in the examination of Dr Bradley, who was present when the evidence was given, yet I don't see a transcript in the archive. Is there one available?
Here is some info if you are interested
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9527.msg441994.html#msg441994 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9527.msg441994.html#msg441994)
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Here is some info if you are interested
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9527.msg441994.html#msg441994 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9527.msg441994.html#msg441994)
Excellent, thanks!
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For those who maintain they are sure Jeremy is guilty:
If the explanation for Sheila's incident passivity is that she was asleep, can you explain what - if any - toxicological, pharmacological and/or psychiatric factors there were in keeping her asleep?
Can you also explain your evidence for the silencer having been used in the killings?
At what point does Sheila awaken? She must have woken. What do you think happened when she woke?
If Jeremy carried her to the master bedroom without having shot her first, where did he leave the rifle while he was doing this? Was June dead at this point?
And why aren't Jeremy's fibres on Sheila's nightdress? Do you think the blood hand print on the nightdress is actually Jeremy's?
Do you think he put Sheila on the bed in the master bedroom (and she was then moved by the police) or on the floor?
If on the floor, why would he do this?
And why do you think he staged Sheila in the master bedroom as opposed to the twins' bedroom?
Why do you think he left her with little or no gunshot residues on her hands, bearing in mind he was staging her killings and you think it was premeditated? Wouldn't he have given thought to that?
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For those who maintain they are sure Jeremy is guilty:
If the explanation for Sheila's incident passivity is that she was asleep, can you explain what - if any - toxicological, pharmacological and/or psychiatric factors there were in keeping her asleep?
Can you also explain your evidence for the silencer having been used in the killings?
At what point does Sheila awaken? She must have woken. What do you think happened when she woke?
If Jeremy carried her to the master bedroom without having shot her first, where did he leave the rifle while he was doing this? Was June dead at this point?
And why aren't Jeremy's fibres on Sheila's nightdress? Do you think the blood hand print on the nightdress is actually Jeremy's?
Do you think he put Sheila on the bed in the master bedroom (and she was then moved by the police) or on the floor?
If on the floor, why would he do this?
And why do you think he staged Sheila in the master bedroom as opposed to the twins' bedroom?
Why do you think he left her with little or no gunshot residues on her hands, bearing in mind he was staging her killings and you think it was premeditated? Wouldn't he have given thought to that?
I’m waiting with baited breath Adam
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For those who maintain they are sure Jeremy is guilty:
If the explanation for Sheila's incident passivity is that she was asleep, can you explain what - if any - toxicological, pharmacological and/or psychiatric factors there were in keeping her asleep?
Can you also explain your evidence for the silencer having been used in the killings?
At what point does Sheila awaken? She must have woken. What do you think happened when she woke?
If Jeremy carried her to the master bedroom without having shot her first, where did he leave the rifle while he was doing this? Was June dead at this point?
And why aren't Jeremy's fibres on Sheila's nightdress? Do you think the blood hand print on the nightdress is actually Jeremy's?
Do you think he put Sheila on the bed in the master bedroom (and she was then moved by the police) or on the floor?
If on the floor, why would he do this?
And why do you think he staged Sheila in the master bedroom as opposed to the twins' bedroom?
Why do you think he left her with little or no gunshot residues on her hands, bearing in mind he was staging her killings and you think it was premeditated? Wouldn't he have given thought to that?
Sheila slept through the massacre. She may have been awake for a few seconds prior to being shot. But would not have known what was happening.
The silencer was available to use. It had Sheila's blood and the aga paint on.
Bamber put the rifle down while he lead/carried Sheila to the main bedroom. June had been shot 5 or 7 times. So dead or negated.
What fibres would be on Sheila's nightdress?
Bamber put Sheila on the floor before shooting her. I do not know why.
I do not know why Bamber put Sheila in the master bedroom. He has to put her somewhere. It was nearer and bigger. With available space to put her on the floor.
Doubtful he thought of gun residue. How would he put gun shot residue on her hands?
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Sheila slept through the massacre. She may have been awake for a few seconds prior to being shot. But would not have known what was happening.
The silencer was available to use. It had Sheila's blood and the aga paint on.
Bamber put the rifle down while he lead/carried Sheila to the main bedroom. June had been shot 5 or 7 times. So dead or negated.
What fibres would be on Sheila's nightdress?
Bamber put Sheila on the floor before shooting her. I do not know why.
I do not know why Bamber put Sheila in the master bedroom. He has to put her somewhere. It was nearer and bigger. With available space to put her on the floor.
Doubtful he thought of gun residue. How would he put gun shot residue on her hands?
Sheila's the odd one out. She slept through it all. Everybody else has insomnia.
Jeremy can't sleep and he's up killing his family.
Julie wakes up for a 3.15 a.m. phone call. Must be a light sleeper. So are Douglas and Susan.
June's a light sleeper too. So is Nevill. They somehow heard that silenced rifle. Or maybe Jeremy woke them up before he shot them?
It's not so much Sheila Alive as Sheila Asleep. Thanks Adam.
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Sheila's the odd one out. She slept through it all. Everybody else has insomnia.
Jeremy can't sleep and he's up killing his family.
Julie wakes up for a 3.15 a.m. phone call. Must be a light sleeper. So are Douglas and Susan.
June's a light sleeper too. So is Nevill. They somehow heard that silenced rifle. Or maybe Jeremy woke them up before he shot them?
It's not so much Sheila Alive as Sheila Asleep. Thanks Adam.
June, Nicholas, Daniel & Nevill were all shot with a silencer attached while sleeping. Nevill woke prior to his third shot.
Nothing to wake Sheila, asleep in another room.
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June, Nicholas, Daniel & Nevill were all shot with a silencer attached while sleeping. Nevill woke prior to his third shot.
Nothing to wake Sheila, asleep in another room.
You seem to make things up as you feel.
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You seem to make things up as you feel.
They were all shot in bed. With a silencer attached.
Nicholas & Daniel never woke or moved. June moved a few feet after 5 shots. Nevill moved after 2 shots.
Nothing there would wake Sheila up. Who was in another room.
All evidence.
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They were all shot in bed. With a silencer attached.
Nicholas & Daniel never woke or moved. June moved a few feet after 5 shots. Nevill moved after 2 shots.
Nothing there would wake Sheila up. Who was in another room.
All evidence.
All fiction
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June, Nicholas, Daniel & Nevill were all shot with a silencer attached while sleeping. Nevill woke prior to his third shot.
Nothing to wake Sheila, asleep in another room.
June is sleep-walking after she's shot. She's shot four more times and manages to crawl around the bed while asleep.
Nevill is shot in bed but leaves no blood. Despite being shot twice in the head, once in the neck/shoulder and left arm, he manages to get past Jeremy and make it downstairs while leaving virtually no trace of blood anywhere in the house until he reaches the kitchen.
Somehow Jeremy doesn't catch a sleepy Nevill on the stairs. Jeremy lets him run to the kitchen instead, maybe just for kicks and giggles.
Thanks Adam. Thanks Steve. Thanks Hartley.
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They were all shot in bed. With a silencer attached.
Nicholas & Daniel never woke or moved. June moved a few feet after 5 shots. Nevill moved after 2 shots.
Nothing there would wake Sheila up. Who was in another room.
All evidence.
It sounds like Sheila was on another planet.
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Top doctors who'd "treated " Sheila at St. Andrews had given evidence at the trial, for the prosecution, later realised that they hadn't had as much knowledge about her illness as they'd claimed, having seriously neglected her.
This comes as no surprise to me !
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References from Drs. Sally Baker and Adrian Bell. Behind the Facade. Farce more like.
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June is sleep-walking after she's shot. She's shot four more times and manages to crawl around the bed while asleep.
Nevill is shot in bed but leaves no blood. Despite being shot twice in the head, once in the neck/shoulder and left arm, he manages to get past Jeremy and make it downstairs while leaving virtually no trace of blood anywhere in the house until he reaches the kitchen.
Somehow Jeremy doesn't catch a sleepy Nevill on the stairs. Jeremy lets him run to the kitchen instead, maybe just for kicks and giggles.
Thanks Adam. Thanks Steve. Thanks Hartley.
June was sleep walking? She was shot 5 times in bed. Then twice more on the floor.
Nevill didn't have time to bleed onto the bed. He was moving after the second shot.
Nevill got past Bamber. He was a big man & Bamber stepped back as Nevill rose.
Is there a source regarding the stair carpet. Either stating the results of blood tests. Or that no tests were carried out & the carpet was disposed? Either way, doubtful much or any blood would be pouring onto the carpet during the few seconds Nevill was running down.
Bamber either didn't catch Nevill on the stairs. Or he preferred to atrack him downstairs where there was more space & it was less dangerous.
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June was sleep walking? She was shot 5 times in bed. Then twice more on the floor.
Nevill didn't have time to bleed onto the bed. He was moving after the second shot.
Nevill got past Bamber. He was a big man & Bamber stepped back as Nevill rose.
Is there a source regarding the stair carpet. Either stating the results of blood tests. Or that no tests were carried out & the carpet was disposed? Either way, doubtful much or any blood would be pouring onto the carpet during the few seconds Nevill was running down.
Bamber either didn't catch Nevill on the stairs. Or he preferred to atrack him downstairs where there was more space & it was less dangerous.
It took Nevill seconds to get down the stairs when he was sleepy and had been shot four times, including twice in the face.
Thanks Adam.
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It took Nevill seconds to get down the stairs when he was sleepy and had been shot four times, including twice in the face.
Thanks Adam.
Not sure he was sleepy. Someone was trying to kill him.
He was still pretty mobile when on the stairs & in the early stages of the kitchen fight. As the kitchen crime scene shows. The fear & adrelaline of the situation negated the pain of the 4 upstairs shots for the first 30 - 60 seconds.
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Not sure he was sleepy. Someone was trying to kill him.
He was still pretty mobile when on the stairs & in the early stages of the kitchen fight. As the kitchen crime scene shows. The fear & adrelaline of the situation negated the pain of the 4 upstairs shots for the first 30 - 60 seconds.
You earlier stated, or implied, that he was shot in his sleep, as was June you say. Were they awake or not? If they were awake, then how come? I thought you said the rifle was near-silent, and you also affect to imply that the rooms of these houses are virtually sound proof. What woke them? Be careful with your reply, because remember you're also asking us to believe Sheila slept through it all.
If they were awake and not asleep, then why did they stay in bed? Or did Nevill get up? if Nevill got up, what was he doing? Press-ups? Flippancy aside, the question matters because you are asking us to believe Nevill only took four shots downstairs, despite the blood and pathological evidence implying otherwise.
I'm not convinced Nevill was shot upstairs at all, but I must acknowledge that the cartridge cases were found there and while the position of the cases cannot be relied on, if we say that Nevill took his shots on the stairs and downstairs, then we have to explain why and how up to four cases have made their way upstairs.
Part of the explanation will be that the projectile cases have ended up on the landing from shots fired on the stairs, more likely with Sheila facing in the direction of upstairs, but possibly with her firing down the stairs towards Nevill - because the cases could have ricocheted off the walls and back on to the landing.
It's still a problem for the defence, though - I must admit that.
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You earlier stated, or implied, that he was shot in his sleep, as was June you say. Were they awake or not? If they were awake, then how come? I thought you said the rifle was near-silent, and you also affect to imply that the rooms of these houses are virtually sound proof. What woke them? Be careful with your reply, because remember you're also asking us to believe Sheila slept through it all.
If they were awake and not asleep, then why did they stay in bed? Or did Nevill get up? if Nevill got up, what was he doing? Press-ups?
I'm not convinced Nevill was shot upstairs at all, but I must acknowledge that the cartridge cases were found there and while the position of the cases cannot be relied on, if we say that Nevill took his shots on the stairs and downstairs, then we have to explain why and how up to four cases have made their way upstairs.
Part of the explanation will be that the projectile cases have ended up on the landing from shots fired on the stairs, more likely with Sheila facing in the direction of upstairs, but possibly with her firing down the stairs towards Nevill, because the cases could have ricocheted off the walls and back on to the landing.
It's still a problem for the defence, though - I must admit that.
Nevill and June were asleep when Bamber entered the bedroom. The twins & rifle with silencer had made no noise.
They were both asleep as Bamber opened fire on June. Nevill was waking as he received his first two face shots & was able to avoid further upstairs face shots.
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Nevill and June were asleep when Bamber entered the bedroom. The twins & rifle with silencer had made no noise.
They were both asleep as Bamber opened fire on June. Nevill was waking as he received his first two face shots & was able to avoid further upstairs face shots.
Interesting that he would fire on June first. I know June was in the S.O.E. (if we're to believe Carol Ann Lee, which perhaps answers its own question), but she was a typist. She had a bash at parachuting but I can't imagine her leaping out of bed and doing a kung-fu on Jeremy. Can you?
You'd think dozy Jeremy would have gone for Nevill from the off, as he's the threat. Stupid boy! Straw between his ears.
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Neither were asleep. Nevill would have been downstairs in the kitchen after having returned from his usual nightly walk with the dogs. Not forgetting that Nevill had continued working on the rape harvest after Jeremy had left .
As a force of habit, Nevill would then have sat with a G&T and a smoke to unwind before having a shower and also waiting for June to settle as she'd been a poor sleeper.
June would have been in bed but not necessarily asleep as it was obvious that she'd been reading the Bible.
Two teacups were found downstairs so either June and Nevill had a drink each or Nevill and Sheila may have had as at some point Sheila also had a snack late on.
It would have been quite late at this juncture and perhaps only another 4 hours before Nevill would have been up again to begin another day of harvesting, so whatever happened between midnight and 3am nobody will ever know and it's futile to even speculate.
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The rifle was long enough to reach June and Nevill from June's side of the bed. Bamber would have believed 3/4 face shots into Nevill would be sufficient. But he only managed 2.
Nevill got out of bed while Bamber was still on June's side. Bamber moved away from the bed & fired two more shots as Nevill moved towards the bedroom door. He then retreated as out of bullets & expecting Nevill may attack him. This allowed Nevill to get past him.
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Neither were asleep. Nevill would have been downstairs in the kitchen after having returned from his usual nightly walk with the dogs. Not forgetting that Nevill had continued working on the rape harvest after Jeremy had left .
As a force of habit, Nevill would then have sat with a G&T and a smoke to unwind before having a shower and also waiting for June to settle as she'd been a poor sleeper.
June would have been in bed but not necessarily asleep as it was obvious that she'd been reading the Bible.
Two teacups were found downstairs so either June and Nevill had a drink each or Nevill and Sheila may have had as at some point Sheila also had a snack late on.
It would have been quite late at this juncture and perhaps only another 4 hours before Nevill would have been up again to begin another day of harvesting, so whatever happened between midnight and 3am nobody will ever know and it's futile to even speculate.
We can look at the evidence and speculate.
If Jeremy is innocent, that means something happened around 3 a.m. or so (we can only go roughly on times). Would Nevill and June normally still be awake at that sort of time? Would Nevill be drinking into the early hours of the morning? He didn't have a drink problem that I'm aware of. It seems unlikely to me.
However, I don't believe they were asleep. To that extent, I agree with you. It does seem more likely that at least June was in bed and something had roused her, and she then sat up, or maybe sat at the edge of the bed. Nevill was out of bed already. He must have been. Look at the bed sheets.
I understand why there is a need for the rifle to have the silencer on it. Jeremy might have anticipated that the report would alert the adults to his presence. But to me, it looks like the rifle didn't have the silencer on it. Otherwise, why are they awake? How is Nevill downstairs in the kitchen? Even if we think Jeremy did it, why can't we admit that it is possible that Sheila is the killer and she just went on a rampage?
The struggle in the kitchen also points to Sheila, because Nevill would be hesitant in dealing with his daughter. Jeremy and Nevill would not enter into a struggle in the kitchen. Jeremy was armed and would just kill him in the bedroom or, if he ran out of ammunition, he would tackle him on the stairs or upstairs.
People laugh at the idea that Sheila stopped to wash herself, but if we believe the Crown's case, then we must accept that:
(i). Jeremy killed his own family for money.
(ii). Jeremy entered and left the house through a narrow casement window without leaving any blood traces.
(iii). Jeremy carried out the massacre without leaving any direct forensic evidence that he had done so.
(iv). Jeremy nevertheless implicated himself circumstantially by leaving a bloodied and 'sticky' silencer in the gun cupboard.
(v). Jeremy also very kindly stopped during the massacre to scratch the aga surround so that the silencer would have further incriminating forensic traces on it. Thanks Jeremy.
(vi). It was helpful of Sheila to stay asleep all the way through it all. Everybody else involved in this case is a light sleeper and some of them get up for 3 a.m. phone calls like rabbits on Duracel, but not Sheila. That lass slept like a log.
(vii). Former Scotland Yard C11 Branch detective Stan Jones regarded Jeremy as prime suspect from the off. This same Stan Jones offered Jeremy the keys to the crime scene, and left all the guns in the house for Jeremy to find. That was nice of Stan Jones, given that Jeremy was a suspected mass murderer.
(viii). Jeremy declined this open goal and was delighted that the relatives were given the keys so that they could find a key piece of evidence that Jeremy had left there.
(ix). Alternatively, Jeremy broke into the house later and left the evidence there for the relatives to find - which was very nice of him.
(x). It was also very considerate of Jeremy not to leave blood in the den, in the gun cupboard or in the cardboard box in which David Boutflour found the silencer. Leaving the place spick and span shows that Jeremy was not just a mass murderer, but a mature and responsible young man.
(xi). Jeremy tells his girlfriend, Julie, everything. Jeremy then splits up with her. I suppose as a former public school boy imbued with the English traditions of amateurism and sportsman-like behaviour, Jeremy was doing his best to help the relatives and the police put him in the frame. It just wouldn't be cricket otherwise.
(xii). We are to believe that Julie was not an accomplice and was not arrested, instead she went to the police voluntarily, but only after more than a month, during which time she slept with Jeremy, socialised with him, and identified all the bodies because she thought she could talk to the dead.
But let's say Jeremy is the killer. I think he didn't plan it. He was psychotic and over-estimated the lethality of the murder weapon. He assumed it would all be over quick, and instead it got messy and he was left to improvise. He comes up with the phone call alibi idea after Nevill ends up downstairs. He recalls a genuine call that I would speculate Nevill made to Jeremy earlier in the evening, which started it all off, in which Nevill berated him and Jeremy thinks that he can fake a call. He doesn't give much thought to it beyond leaving the rifle on or near Sheila's body and he then ropes in Julie by ringing her in the early hours of the morning.
The difficulty with that theory is the 3 a.m. phone call (or 3.15 a.m. or whatever time it was). Isn't it quite a coincidence that Julie is there to answer the phone herself?
It's convenient that Jeremy eventually answers the phone for Nevil, but that's not a coincidence. Jeremy can explain this away by pointing out that he is Nevill's son, Nevill wants to contain problems in the family and not involve the authorities, blah, blah, blah and so on. Nevill is at a stand-off in the kitchen with Sheila, who is carrying on and has the loaded rifle that Jeremy left out earlier. Nevill assumes she won't use the rifle, but he doesn't try to tackle her, maybe because he can't catch her or whatever reason. Nevill waits for Jeremy to answer the phone. The phone has a loud ring. Eventually Jeremy wakes and answers, etc., etc., and so on. Make of that what you will, but it is plausible.
But then Jeremy rings Julie, and she answers too - a handy coincidence.
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How easy is it to look at this case, solve it and immediately point a finger at the last man standing just because he liked money ? Crimes don't always happen this way !
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How easy is it to look at this case, solve it and immediately point a finger at the last man standing just because he liked money ? Crimes don't always happen this way !
Yes. I'm not convinced by the inheritance motive anyway. If I understand correctly, Jeremy was not inheriting investment bonds or some other genuine form of passive income. The value was the goodwill in the farm and the other businesses, and there was cash. Farms need work. Jeremy could have spent all the cash, but that wouldn't have lasted long. At some point, he would have had to either sell the businesses, which isn't simple and can't be done in an instant, or knuckle down to work, or have somebody else run the farm. Would Peter Eaton have willingly worked under him for very long?
It's not so straight-forward.
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It took Nevill seconds to get down the stairs when he was sleepy and had been shot four times, including twice in the face.
Thanks Adam.
None of Nevils blood was on the main bedroom floor. Adam believes, Jeremy (who had plenty of experience shooting) Fired 9 shots at two sleeping targets at point blank range and failed to kill them. Nevil then ran past Jeremy while containing his blood so he could spill it all outside the bedroom.
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Yes. I'm not convinced by the inheritance motive anyway. If I understand correctly, Jeremy was not inheriting investment bonds or some other genuine form of passive income. The value was the goodwill in the farm and the other businesses, and there was cash. Farms need work. Jeremy could have spent all the cash, but that wouldn't have lasted long. At some point, he would have had to either sell the businesses, which isn't simple and can't be done in an instant, or knuckle down to work, or have somebody else run the farm. Would Peter Eaton have willingly worked under him for very long?
It's not so straight-forward.
Jeremy would have mucked in with the farm initially while the workers established themselves under the supervision of a much younger boss. I doubt that PE would have gone along with the idea though and life on the farm for Jeremy could well have turned sour. It's hard to say how things would have turned out.
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None of Nevils blood was on the main bedroom floor. Adam believes, Jeremy (who had plenty of experience shooting) Fired 9 shots at two sleeping targets at point blank range and failed to kill them. Nevil then ran past Jeremy while containing his blood so he could spill it all outside the bedroom.
David believes Nevill ran downstairs to ring Jeremy after Sheila started shooting the twins.
Bamber hit Nevill twice in the face as Nevill was waking & getting up. His two torso shots were as Nevill was moving towards the bedroom door. What part of that do you not understand?
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43.
Mrs Bamber was bare footed and dressed in a nightdress. She had received seven gunshot wounds, of which one to her forehead and one to the right side of the head would have caused death very quickly.
She also suffered shots to the right side of the lower part of her neck, the right forearm, two injuries to the right side of the chest and to the right knee. There was a great deal of blood on her body and clothing and from its pattern, it appeared that at some stage of the attack she had been in an upright position.
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Seems that Bamber was pretty accurrate with his bed shots to June.
Neck & chest shots would have maybe eventually killed her. Knee shots meant she couldn't walk. The neck shot also meaning she can't use her voice.
The variety of locations suggested a crazy Sheila.
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Bamber could afford to shoot June in a variety of places. They may kill her but a still alive & seriously injured June is no threat to him. He can return to her. Which is what he did.
However Nevill is another matter & he would have wanted 3/4 head shots.
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None of Nevils blood was on the main bedroom floor. Adam believes, Jeremy (who had plenty of experience shooting) Fired 9 shots at two sleeping targets at point blank range and failed to kill them. Nevil then ran past Jeremy while containing his blood so he could spill it all outside the bedroom.
I think you'll agree with me it was very considerate of Nevill to do that. After all, think of the additional trouble the police would have been put to.
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41.
There was a wound to the left side of the lip and another to the left part of the lower jaw. This injury caused severe fracturing of the jaw, of the teeth in that area and damaged soft tissue in the neck and the larynx. These features of this particular injury and the resultant flow of blood into the mouth meant, in the pathologist's opinion, that Nevill Bamber would not have been able to engage in purposeful talk.
There were also gunshot wounds to the left shoulder and a grazing wound above the left elbow.
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The blood in Nevill's upstairs head shots would have built up inside his mouth.
The shoulder is not an area of high blood flow. So no reason blood would drop down from his upright 6.4 frame through pyjamas onto carpet.
The elbow shot was a crazing wound. Again in an area with low blood flow. So no reason why blood would drop down through his pyjamas onto the floor.
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From first shot to kitchen entry would have been less than 30 seconds.
No time for any blood from Nevill falling onto the floor or bed. Besides which I am still waiting for a source on the stair carpet.
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Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs by Bamber with a rifle used for shooting rabbits.
Two shots were in locations with low blood flow. One being a grazing shot. Two shots the blood would have built up inside the mouth.
Nevill was simultaneously getting up and moving towards the bedroom door & stairs while receiving the shots.
For goodness sake, no reason why any of his blood would be on any carpet.
Besides which proof Nevill was shot upstairs is in the cartridge locations.
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Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs by Bamber with a rifle used for shooting rabbits.
Two shots were in locations with low blood flow. One being a grazing shot. Two shots the blood would have built up inside the mouth.
Nevill was simultaneously getting up and moving towards the bedroom door & stairs while receiving the shots.
For goodness sake, no reason why any of his blood would be on any carpet.
Besides which proof Nevill was shot upstairs is in the cartridge locations.
Do you accept that Nevill:
(i). must have been drowsy [you are saying Nevill was asleep when he was first shot];
(ii). in shock;
(iii). must have bled;
(iv). must have touched his wounds;
(v). must have transferred blood from himself to objects and fixtures around him.
Nevill sounds like a character out of that Jean-Claude Van Damme film, Universal Soldier. It just seems remarkable that he can be woken by being shot in bed, can leap out of bed, get shot three more times - including twice in the face - but still make it past Jeremy and all the way to the kitchen leaving hardly any blood.
Why didn't Jeremy just kill him?
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Do you accept that Nevill:
(i). must have been in shock;
(ii). must have bled;
(iii). must have touched his wounds;
(iv). must have transferred blood from himself to objects and fixtures around him.
He would have been in shock.
What objects would he touch between his bed and kitchen? Nevill's palm print was just outside the kitchen door.
Have you got a source on the stair carpet?
Are you saying Nevill was not shot in the main bedroom? Four bullet casings show he was.
Where do you believe Nevill received his first 4 shots?
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He would have been in shock.
What objects would he touch between his bed and kitchen? Nevill's palm print was just outside the kitchen door.
Have you got a source on the stair carpet?
Are you saying Nevill was not shot in the main bedroom? Four bullet casings show he was.
Where do you believe Nevill received his first 4 shots?
At the moment, I don't know.
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He would have been in shock.
What objects would he touch between his bed and kitchen? Nevill's palm print was just outside the kitchen door.
Have you got a source on the stair carpet?
Are you saying Nevill was not shot in the main bedroom? Four bullet casings show he was.
Where do you believe Nevill received his first 4 shots?
I should have added: the bullet cases do not prove that Nevill was shot in the master bedroom.
In fact, there is no evidence that Nevill was shot while he was in the master bedroom.
One minor but important point the prosecution do have going for them here is that, for forensic reasons, Jeremy would be keen not to enter into a direct physical struggle with any of the victims, including Nevill. This may go some way to explaining why a drowsy/sleepy 61 year old who had already been shot twice in the face, at least once while still asleep, was able to get out of bed and escape the master bedroom without being bludgeoned by Jeremy.
I still find it a stretch, though. Furthermore, Nevill's blood was not found in the master bedroom or on the stairs or on the landing or in the main foyer - the exception being two isolated spots of blood on the stairway wallpaper and the jamb between the kitchen and the main foyer.
For me, it's just doesn't add up.
Nevill would be in pain and shock, bleeding, sleepy and drowsy. You're saying he was first shot while still asleep, was shot three more times but still manages to make it all the way to the kitchen in quite a large house. Sorry Adam, it doesn't work.
There's also the idea that Jeremy shot June five times at this stage. Why would he spend so much ammunition on June before dealing with Nevill?
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They were all shot in bed. With a silencer attached.
Nicholas & Daniel never woke or moved. June moved a few feet after 5 shots. Nevill moved after 2 shots.
Nothing there would wake Sheila up. Who was in another room.
All evidence.
OK I accept the kids and June were shot in their beds, but remind me how you figure Nevill was shot in his bed. What bed was he in?
And how do you figure the silencer was attached?
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OK I accept the kids and June were shot in their beds, but remind me how you figure Nevill was shot in his bed. What bed was he in?
And how do you figure the silencer was attached?
Nevill was shot twice in bed. From June's side of the bed. He was then shot twice in the torso while standing.
There was a silencer available to use. It would be appropriate to use one in a silent massacre attempt. The silencer had Sheila's blood and the aga paint on.
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I should have added: the bullet cases do not prove that Nevill was shot in the master bedroom.
In fact, there is no evidence that Nevill was shot while he was in the master bedroom.
One minor but important point the prosecution do have going for them here is that, for forensic reasons, Jeremy would be keen not to enter into a direct physical struggle with any of the victims, including Nevill. This may go some way to explaining why a drowsy/sleepy 61 year old who had already been shot twice in the face, at least once while still asleep, was able to get out of bed and escape the master bedroom without being bludgeoned by Jeremy.
I still find it a stretch, though. Furthermore, Nevill's blood was not found in the master bedroom or on the stairs or on the landing or in the main foyer - the exception being two isolated spots of blood on the stairway wallpaper and the jamb between the kitchen and the main foyer.
For me, it's just doesn't add up.
Nevill would be in pain and shock, bleeding, sleepy and drowsy. You're saying he was first shot while still asleep, was shot three more times but still manages to make it all the way to the kitchen in quite a large house. Sorry Adam, it doesn't work.
There's also the idea that Jeremy shot June five times at this stage. Why would he spend so much ammunition on June before dealing with Nevill?
Please refer to posts 55, 56 & 57 regarding any blood from Nevill.
I agree that Bamber would not want to fight Nevill. Which is why he shot him 4 times. Bamber stepped back as a 6.4 Nevill came towards the bedroom door.
Who do you believe Sheila shot first?
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Nevill was shot twice in bed. From June's side of the bed. He was then shot twice in the torso while standing.
There was a silencer available to use. It would be appropriate to use one in a silent massacre attempt. The silencer had Sheila's blood and the aga paint on.
If he was shot twice in the same bed as June, you would expect blood on his side of the bed. Is there a photo showing blood on that side? If there were two in a bed a male and a female who would you shoot first?
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If he was shot twice in the same bed as June, you would expect blood on his side of the bed. Is there a photo showing blood on that side? If there were two in a bed a male and a female who would you shoot first?
Please refer to posts 55, 56 & 57 regarding the blood.
Eight/nine shots into Nevill & June would have been sufficient. Providing Nevill received 3/4 head shots. He only received two.
June may have died after her 5 shots. But Bamber had no time to waste & had already re loaded. So fired two more.
Where do you believe Nevill received his first 4 shots? The bullet casings show the main bedroom.
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Please refer to posts 55, 56 & 57 regarding any blood from Nevill.
I agree that Bamber would not want to fight Nevill. Which is why he shot him 4 times. Bamber stepped back as a 6.4 Nevill came towards the bedroom door.
Who do you believe Sheila shot first?
Nevill.
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It would seem logical for Bamber to shoot Nevill 8 times in a row. With the re load after 4 shots.
He had to re load in the kitchen & Nevill was there. Immobilised but still breathing. He didn't need to rush back upstairs. June & the twins had been shot 7 times & Sheila was asleep.
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Nevill.
Let me know when you decide where.
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June may have been dead on the floor when Bamber returned upstairs.
However she had moved & Bamber automatically fired two head shots into her.
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Let me know when you decide where.
Just waiting for a robin to tell me.
Thanks Adam.
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None of Nevils blood was on the main bedroom floor. Adam believes, Jeremy (who had plenty of experience shooting) Fired 9 shots at two sleeping targets at point blank range and failed to kill them. Nevil then ran past Jeremy while containing his blood so he could spill it all outside the bedroom.
That seems to be impossible if he was shot in the bedroom.
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That seems to be impossible if he was shot in the bedroom.
Some people believe Nevill was downstairs at the start of the incident.
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Some people believe Nevill was downstairs at the start of the incident.
That might make more sense to me. But I really don't know for sure, but I never saw any blood showing Nevill was in bed when shot.
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That seems to be impossible if he was shot in the bedroom.
Please refer to posts 55, 56 & 57.
Third time I have said this.
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The bullet casings show Nevill was shot 4 times by Bamber in the bedroom.
Where else would he be in his bedroom at that time of night other than in his bed?
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64.
In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin. The remaining injuries to the arm were caused when the gun was at least two feet from the body.
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There is a possibility Nevill was just about out of bed when receiving his first two head shots. The rifle inches away.
Bamber being in attack mode & advancing for the first two shots. Then retreating to avoid a physical fight & firing two his torso shots from feet away.
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55 http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10290.msg481308.html#msg481308
56 http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10290.msg481311.html#msg481311
57 http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10290.msg481313.html#msg481313
I read that but do I have to believe it just because you say so.
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64.
In respect of the eight shots into Nevill Bamber's body, the six to his head and face were fired when the rifle was within a few inches of the skin. The remaining injuries to the arm were caused when the gun was at least two feet from the body.
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There is a possibility Nevill was just about out of bed when receiving his first two head shots. The rifle inches away.
Bamber being in attack mode & advancing for the first two shots. Then retreating to avoid a physical fight & firing two his torso shots from feet away.
Why don’t you write a book Adam?