Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Alias on June 26, 2011, 12:44:PM
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My husband has had a severe nosebleed for some days, and I learned something from that in connection to the blood pattern on Sheila's right arm.
My husband got one of those sudden bouts of blood running from his nose when I was sitting facing him. The first thing he did was to take his hand to his nose and lean forward, and what I saw, startled me.
A large drop of blood ran down his arm, and it looked EXACTLY like the stripes of blood down Sheila's arm (as shown in picture), except there was only one. It dried very quickly in that pattern with the heavier pooling at the bottom; the blood was arrested there, in very much the same location as what is seen on Sheila´s arm, i.e. halfway around the arm, same angle of bloodstripe. It was amazing to see how fast it dried - five minutes tops. AND there was no blood on his shirt apart from a few small stains at the bottom of his shirt, NONE at the top (he was sitting on a sofa leaning forward).
I have always wondered how Sheila got those distinctive stripes of blood on her arm - now I've seen how. She must have put her hand to her (first) wound, then leaned forward in an upright position, and blood wouldn't necessarily make its way to the front of her nightgown.
I wish I had taken a picture of the stripe of blood on my husband's arm - but he was annoyed that I just sat there gawking at the blood as it was! (Can't blame him! :P)
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interesting insight and observations...
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Well, I was amazed at what I saw.
BTW, notice the "bump" on Sheila´s arm, located at blood-stripe four from top. It is quite distinct and COULD be consistent with someone having fired a gun 25-26 times.
And further BTW, if I may say so, Sheila would not have had to load gun more than once if two guns were used, which I believe is very possible.
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Well, I was amazed at what I saw.
BTW, notice the "bump" on Sheila´s arm, located at blood-stripe four from top. It is quite distinct and COULD be consistent with someone having fired a gun 25-26 times.
And further BTW, if I may say so, Sheila would not have had to load gun more than once if two guns were used, which I believe is very possible.
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Again, interesting observations - as for another gun being used, I have always been very interested in the 14 bullet cases kept at the lab' at Huntingdon bearing the exhibit mark, MDF/100, and think these could be 14 of the original bullet cases, which were either super-glued, or fired by a different gun?
According to the evidence, Ballistic expert, Fletcher, only produced one other exhibit in the case, MDF/1 which was the cloth pull through test, which he said was pulled through the barrel of the Bamber rifle to see if there was any blood inside it, but it turned out to be clean and blood free...
Where are the missing 98 exhibits, MDF/2 to MDF/99?
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Well, I was amazed at what I saw.
BTW, notice the "bump" on Sheila´s arm, located at blood-stripe four from top. It is quite distinct and COULD be consistent with someone having fired a gun 25-26 times.
And further BTW, if I may say so, Sheila would not have had to load gun more than once if two guns were used, which I believe is very possible.
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Again, interesting observations - as for another gun being used, I have always been very interested in the 14 bullet cases kept at the lab' at Huntingdon bearing the exhibit mark, MDF/100, and think these could be 14 of the original bullet cases, which were either super-glued, or fired by a different gun?
According to the evidence, Ballistic expert, Fletcher, only produced one other exhibit in the case, MDF/1 which was the cloth pull through test, which he aid was pulled through the barrel of the Bamber rifle to see if there was any blood inside it, but it turned out to be clean and blood free...
Where are the missing 98 exhibits, MDF/2 to MDF/99?
Jeremy, while waiting outside the murder scene at WHF, told the police that all, or many, of the small armoury of guns at WHF were likely to be loaded. (David Shaw's manuscript)
Sheila would have known this, wouldn't she? Why would she bother to load rifles when she had pre-loaded rifles available?
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My husband has had a severe nosebleed for some days, and I learned something from that in connection to the blood pattern on Sheila's right arm.
My husband got one of those sudden bouts of blood running from his nose when I was sitting facing him. The first thing he did was to take his hand to his nose and lean forward, and what I saw, startled me.
A large drop of blood ran down his arm, and it looked EXACTLY like the stripes of blood down Sheila's arm (as shown in picture), except there was only one. It dried very quickly in that pattern with the heavier pooling at the bottom; the blood was arrested there, in very much the same location as what is seen on Sheila´s arm, i.e. halfway around the arm, same angle of bloodstripe. It was amazing to see how fast it dried - five minutes tops. AND there was no blood on his shirt apart from a few small stains at the bottom of his shirt, NONE at the top (he was sitting on a sofa leaning forward).
I have always wondered how Sheila got those distinctive stripes of blood on her arm - now I've seen how. She must have put her hand to her (first) wound, then leaned forward in an upright position, and blood wouldn't necessarily make its way to the front of her nightgown.
I wish I had taken a picture of the stripe of blood on my husband's arm - but he was annoyed that I just sat there gawking at the blood as it was! (Can't blame him! :P)
Well observed, abs. Thank you for this compelling explanation of how Sheila might have acquired the 'striped' blood stains on her arm. +1
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Its clear from a number of pictures that most the blood loss from Sheila pooled in the right underarm area....
This area of pooled blood seemed to have dripped onto the carpet to give the distinct pattern found in the area by the right shoulder when her body was being carried and moved into position.
It's clear Sheila was moved... and in my view when she was being carried blood from the pooling in the right underarm area would drip...now if her right arm was dangling down when being moved it would drip onto her arm in several places...and run from there when her arm was placed across her when on the floor or similar.
This seems feasible and makes sense...though not ruling out other possibilities...I favour something like I have described.
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Its clear from a number of pictures that most the blood loss from Sheila pooled in the right underarm area....
This area of pooled blood seemed to have dripped onto the carpet to give the distinct pattern found in the area by the right shoulder when her body was being carried and moved into position.
It's clear Sheila was moved... and in my view when she was being carried blood from the pooling in the right underarm area would drip...now if her right arm was dangling down when being moved it would drip onto her arm in several places...and run from there when her arm was placed across her when on the floor or similar.
This seems feasible and makes sense...though not ruling out other possibilities...I favour something like I have described.
I cannot agree with that. IMO, the blood you see on the photo would have formed this pattern by Sheila holding her hand to her wound - and I think she must have been sitting or standing still for some minutes. And it must be blood from the first wound.
In your scenario I think there would have been some splatter on the arm from where the drops fell. I don't see that.
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Well, in 2003 whilst visiting Ewen Smiths office in Birmingham, I saw a crime scene photograph of Sheila on the bed, at a time when she did not have blood running and leaking from the corners of her mouth, now what this must mean, is that Sheila was on the bed, before she ended up on the floor, and that blood from the corners of her mouth, ran out whilst her body was being displaced from the bed to the floor, now there can be no other feasible explanation for it, Sheila was moved onto the floor by the police and if they put her body there, they also must have put the rifle on top of her body there, and positioned her right hand upon the gun...
It also must mean, that members of the raid team made false statements about where they originally found Sheila - because they could not have found Sheila on the floor with the gun on top of her body and her right hand on the gun or the bible resting partially upon the top outer part of her right arm, because before Sheila ever got to that position, PC Bird photographed Sheila on the bed, and at that time there was no blood running or leaning or pouring from either corner of her mouth, and so nobody should be in any sort of doubt that it was the police who moved Sheila's body about in the bedroom, and it was the police who put the rifle on her body, and it was the police who re-positioned her hand upon that gun, and it was the police who moved the bible into positions against the body, it was not Jeremy who did any of these things and it was not any as yet unidentified killer - it was the police...
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Well, in 2003 whilst visiting Ewen Smiths office in Birmingham, I saw a crime scene photograph of Sheila on the bed, at a time when she did not have blood running and leaking from the corners of her mouth, now what this must mean, is that Sheila was on the bed, before she ended up on the floor, and that blood from the corners of her mouth, ran out whilst her body was being displaced from the bed to the floor, now there can be no other feasible explanation for it, Sheila was moved onto the floor by the police and if they put her body there, they also must have put the rifle on top of her body there, and positioned her right hand upon the gun...
It also must mean, that members of the raid team made false statements about where they originally found Sheila - because they could not have found Sheila on the floor with the gun on top of her body and her right hand on the gun or the bible resting partially upon the top outer part of her right arm, because before Sheila ever got to that position, PC Bird photographed Sheila on the bed, and at that time there was no blood running or leaning or pouring from either corner of her mouth, and so nobody should be in any sort of doubt that it was the police who moved Sheila's body about in the bedroom, and it was the police who put the rifle on her body, and it was the police who re-positioned her hand upon that gun, and it was the police who moved the bible into positions against the body, it was not Jeremy who did any of these things and it was not any as yet unidentified killer - it was the police...
The value of that photo is immense. I mean value as in every sense of the term. I expect it has long since been disposed of.
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Well, in 2003 whilst visiting Ewen Smiths office in Birmingham, I saw a crime scene photograph of Sheila on the bed, at a time when she did not have blood running and leaking from the corners of her mouth, now what this must mean, is that Sheila was on the bed, before she ended up on the floor, and that blood from the corners of her mouth, ran out whilst her body was being displaced from the bed to the floor, now there can be no other feasible explanation for it, Sheila was moved onto the floor by the police and if they put her body there, they also must have put the rifle on top of her body there, and positioned her right hand upon the gun...
It also must mean, that members of the raid team made false statements about where they originally found Sheila - because they could not have found Sheila on the floor with the gun on top of her body and her right hand on the gun or the bible resting partially upon the top outer part of her right arm, because before Sheila ever got to that position, PC Bird photographed Sheila on the bed, and at that time there was no blood running or leaning or pouring from either corner of her mouth, and so nobody should be in any sort of doubt that it was the police who moved Sheila's body about in the bedroom, and it was the police who put the rifle on her body, and it was the police who re-positioned her hand upon that gun, and it was the police who moved the bible into positions against the body, it was not Jeremy who did any of these things and it was not any as yet unidentified killer - it was the police...
Which is why I think the police shot her.
Mike your confermation that the police were armed with .22 ammo only reinforces my opinion.
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I think both June and Sheila were found on the bed at some point, and that both bodies were moved onto different parts of the bedroom floor, June was moved in the vicinity of the bedroom door and Sheila was placed on the floor on the opposite side of the bed. A big clue to what did take place can be found amongst the notes of PS Adams interview by COLP where at the end of the notes, he makes mention of the fact that after discussing the position of Sheila's body in the bedroom with two of his colleagues, they were of the opinion that June and Sheila must have been sat in bed reading the bible before the shootings started...
Now why would PS Adams say that, if there was not any truth in it?
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Well, in 2003 whilst visiting Ewen Smiths office in Birmingham, I saw a crime scene photograph of Sheila on the bed, at a time when she did not have blood running and leaking from the corners of her mouth, now what this must mean, is that Sheila was on the bed, before she ended up on the floor, and that blood from the corners of her mouth, ran out whilst her body was being displaced from the bed to the floor, now there can be no other feasible explanation for it, Sheila was moved onto the floor by the police and if they put her body there, they also must have put the rifle on top of her body there, and positioned her right hand upon the gun...
It also must mean, that members of the raid team made false statements about where they originally found Sheila - because they could not have found Sheila on the floor with the gun on top of her body and her right hand on the gun or the bible resting partially upon the top outer part of her right arm, because before Sheila ever got to that position, PC Bird photographed Sheila on the bed, and at that time there was no blood running or leaning or pouring from either corner of her mouth, and so nobody should be in any sort of doubt that it was the police who moved Sheila's body about in the bedroom, and it was the police who put the rifle on her body, and it was the police who re-positioned her hand upon that gun, and it was the police who moved the bible into positions against the body, it was not Jeremy who did any of these things and it was not any as yet unidentified killer - it was the police...
Which is why I think the police shot her.
Mike your confermation that the police were armed with .22 ammo only reinforces my opinion.
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I have the statement somewhere which confirms that at least one of the firearms team was issued with a .22 semi-automatic rifle, which I will be posting soon...
But if Sheila had already been shot once downstairs that led the police to suspect that she had committed suicide there, which gun was used upstairs in the bedroom to inflict the fatal shot? David Shaw was adamant that the police did not shoot Sheila at all, but that she took her own life by use of the gun at the bedroom window...
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I think both June and Sheila were found on the bed at some point, and that both bodies were moved onto different parts of the bedroom floor, June was moved in the vicinity of the bedroom door and Sheila was placed on the floor on the opposite side of the bed. A big clue to what did take place can be found amongst the notes of PS Adams interview by COLP where at the end of the notes, he makes mention of the fact that after discussing the position of Sheila's body in the bedroom with two of his colleagues, they were of the opinion that June and Sheila must have been sat in bed reading the bible before the shootings started...
Now why would PS Adams say that, if there was not any truth in it?
Mike, sorry to bang on about this... but is it possible to have Bob Miller's notebook uploaded? I believe it may contain some relevant info re Sheila on the bed?
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I just cannot see why and how one of the police officers shot Sheila. Please explain, because it makes no sense at all to me!
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I just cannot see why and how one of the police officers shot Sheila. Please explain, because it makes no sense at all to me!
These days it is called 'death by cops'. One notable recent incident was that of Raoul Moat. It is a stand-off situation whereby the police shoot an armed person.
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I just cannot see why and how one of the police officers shot Sheila. Please explain, because it makes no sense at all to me!
These days it is called 'death by cops'. One notable recent incident was that of Raoul Moat. It is a stand-off situation whereby the police shoot an armed person.
::) Or is it called suicide by cops? Something like that. There was also the case of that barrister in London who was hanging out of his window, while armed. He was taken out by the police.
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Thanks, Roch. I still don´t get it. It is a close contact wound in a peculiar angle (if another person shot her) which killed Sheila. If the police did that, it would have been an execution, not a shooting. I can´t see it.
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I just cannot see why and how one of the police officers shot Sheila. Please explain, because it makes no sense at all to me!
Abs if Shiela did flee upstairs and was seen by EP she may have looked over the bannisters and was shot under the chin.EP then realised they had shot an unarmed woman.
They then needed to make it look like she had taken her own life. That is why they layed her on the bed.
Then moved her body to the floorTo appear she had committed suicide.
The cops had already made big mistakes.
AE was a breathe of fresh air to them. It took the heat off them.[please bear in mind this is only speculative].
The family then came to the rescue with there assertions that JB was the Killer.
This took the heat off the cops who had shot Shiela.
Why was Shiela laid upon a remnant of the carpet. Who placed this under her body, and why.
It is clear from the pics that the blood has been covered up, why.
The point has been made that Nevill was a rufty tufty farmer, did he really go to bed with a soft toy on his pillow, or is the soft toy hiding something.
Rant over.
Regards, Cliff.
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Thanks Cliff and +1 for bothering to answer me.
I am still sceptical though. Wasn´t it a close-cantact wound? But none of us know what really heppened in that house that horrible night. It is all so odd and it doesn´t help that the police obviously moved things around without explanation and that all the evidence was destroyed!
About the teddy bear, June was in the bed too, could have been hers - or the boys had been in the bed at some point. I have my old teddy bear still! NOT in my bed though, I am too scared of him! Even too scared to ever have thrown him out. I was TERRIFIED of that bear when I was a kid! But THAT was a digression.... Sorry about that!
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I just cannot see why and how one of the police officers shot Sheila. Please explain, because it makes no sense at all to me!
Abs if Shiela did flee upstairs and was seen by EP she may have looked over the bannisters and was shot under the chin.EP then realised they had shot an unarmed woman.
They then needed to make it look like she had taken her own life. That is why they layed her on the bed.
Then moved her body to the floorTo appear she had committed suicide.
The cops had already made big mistakes.
AE was a breathe of fresh air to them. It took the heat off them.[please bear in mind this is only speculative].
The family then came to the rescue with there assertions that JB was the Killer.
This took the heat off the cops who had shot Shiela.
Why was Shiela laid upon a remnant of the carpet. Who placed this under her body, and why.
It is clear from the pics that the blood has been covered up, why.
The point has been made that Nevill was a rufty tufty farmer, did he really go to bed with a soft toy on his pillow, or is the soft toy hiding something.
Rant over.
Regards, Cliff.
Good points, in particular regarding the soft toy, that has bothered me since I first saw this photo+1
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Mike is spot on about Sheila being moved. The question is how far was she moved?
From the communication reports it is clear that Sheila was along with Nevill found dead in the kitchen. When someone is found DEAD they are generally beyond the act of moving let alone creeping upstairs for a last stand.
There can be only one explanation and that is that police moved Sheila's body upstairs to the bed in June's room for some as yet undetermined reason and then moved her again to the floor where additional pictures were taken...or should that be fabricated?
Was the carpet remnant actually used to transport her remains from the kitchen to the bedroom?
I will repeat this for the sake of completeness. If police had shot Sheila she would have had chest wounds.
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Mike is spot on about Sheila being moved. The question is how far was she moved?
From the communication reports it is clear that Sheila was along with Nevill found dead in the kitchen. When someone is found DEAD they are generally beyond the act of moving let alone creeping upstairs for a last stand.
There can be only one explanation and that is that police moved Sheila's body upstairs to the bed in June's room for some as yet undetermined reason and then moved her again to the floor where additional pictures were taken...or should that be fabricated?
Was the carpet remnant actually used to transport her remains from the kitchen to the bedroom?
I will repeat this for the sake of completeness. If police had shot Sheila she would have had chest wounds.
Jerry why would Shiela have chest wounds. One shot from downstairs under the chin would have done the job.
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Mike is spot on about Sheila being moved. The question is how far was she moved?
From the communication reports it is clear that Sheila was along with Nevill found dead in the kitchen. When someone is found DEAD they are generally beyond the act of moving let alone creeping upstairs for a last stand.
There can be only one explanation and that is that police moved Sheila's body upstairs to the bed in June's room for some as yet undetermined reason and then moved her again to the floor where additional pictures were taken...or should that be fabricated?
Was the carpet remnant actually used to transport her remains from the kitchen to the bedroom?
I will repeat this for the sake of completeness. If police had shot Sheila she would have had chest wounds.
Jerry why would Shiela have chest wounds. One shot from downstairs under the chin would have done the job.
That would have to have been a very lucky shot and one a TFG officer would not have taken. The TFG are trained to target the upper torso since this presents the greatest target area. In any event, the wounds and abrasions on Sheila's neck are consistent with having been shot at very close range.
I also remind you that the GPO operator and then the Police Control Room operator had an open line to the kitchen and all that was heard was the dog barking followed by the police entry to the premises. The line was closed down following the discovery of all 5 bodies.
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Mike is spot on about Sheila being moved. The question is how far was she moved?
From the communication reports it is clear that Sheila was along with Nevill found dead in the kitchen. When someone is found DEAD they are generally beyond the act of moving let alone creeping upstairs for a last stand.
There can be only one explanation and that is that police moved Sheila's body upstairs to the bed in June's room for some as yet undetermined reason and then moved her again to the floor where additional pictures were taken...or should that be fabricated?
Was the carpet remnant actually used to transport her remains from the kitchen to the bedroom?
I will repeat this for the sake of completeness. If police had shot Sheila she would have had chest wounds.
Jerry why would Shiela have chest wounds. One shot from downstairs under the chin would have done the job.
That would have to have been a very lucky shot and one a TFG officer would not have taken. The TFG are trained to target the upper torso since this presents the greatest target area. In any event, the wounds and abrasions on Sheila's neck are consistent with having been shot at very close range.
Much as I find it unusual to find myself in agreement with "Jerry", I have to say that both of his points here are good ones and I have to agree with them.
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Thanks Cliff and +1 for bothering to answer me.
I am still sceptical though. Wasn´t it a close-cantact wound? But none of us know what really heppened in that house that horrible night. It is all so odd and it doesn´t help that the police obviously moved things around without explanation and that all the evidence was destroyed!
About the teddy bear, June was in the bed too, could have been hers - or the boys had been in the bed at some point. I have my old teddy bear still! NOT in my bed though, I am too scared of him! Even too scared to ever have thrown him out. I was TERRIFIED of that bear when I was a kid! But THAT was a digression.... Sorry about that!
How do we know this was a close contact wound. I pm,ed Andrea earlier this week to explain my thinking.
I will now divulge. When I was in N Ireland a friend of mine was shot in the side, and the bullet lodged against his spine.
I run across the road, and an officer had raised his shirt. The entry wound had like a halo around it, apparently this is common because the bullet causes trauma to the surrounding tissue, not unlike the marks under Shiela,s chin.
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OK, I have a question to those who think that the police shot Sheila. Do you think that she had shot herself once and recaived the second shot from a police officer. Or do you think that she was shot twice by police?
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Mike is spot on about Sheila being moved. The question is how far was she moved?
From the communication reports it is clear that Sheila was along with Nevill found dead in the kitchen. When someone is found DEAD they are generally beyond the act of moving let alone creeping upstairs for a last stand.
There can be only one explanation and that is that police moved Sheila's body upstairs to the bed in June's room for some as yet undetermined reason and then moved her again to the floor where additional pictures were taken...or should that be fabricated?
Was the carpet remnant actually used to transport her remains from the kitchen to the bedroom?
I will repeat this for the sake of completeness. If police had shot Sheila she would have had chest wounds.
Jerry why would Shiela have chest wounds. One shot from downstairs under the chin would have done the job.
That would have to have been a very lucky shot and one a TFG officer would not have taken. The TFG are trained to target the upper torso since this presents the greatest target area. In any event, the wounds and abrasions on Sheila's neck are consistent with having been shot at very close range.
I also remind you that the GPO operator and then the Police Control Room operator had an open line to the kitchen and all that was heard was the dog barking followed by the police entry to the premises. The line was closed down following the discovery of all 5 bodies.
We are all trained to go for the torso, but this is a one shot situation. ie aim up and shoot, the head being the biggest target, because Sheila was at the top of the stairs.
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OK, I have a question to those who think that the police shot Sheila. Do you think that she had shot herself once and recaived the second shot from a police officer. Or do you think that she was shot twice by police?
First shot Sheila, second shot police. Hence the cover up.
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OK, I have a question to those who think that the police shot Sheila. Do you think that she had shot herself once and recaived the second shot from a police officer. Or do you think that she was shot twice by police?
First shot Sheila, second shot police. Hence the cover up.
I think that it is too much of a coincidence that Sheila shoots herself in the neck - and then the police happen to shoot her right beside the wound she inflicted on herself.
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OK, I have a question to those who think that the police shot Sheila. Do you think that she had shot herself once and recaived the second shot from a police officer. Or do you think that she was shot twice by police?
First shot Sheila, second shot police. Hence the cover up.
I think that it is too much of a coincidence that Sheila shoots herself in the neck - and then the police happen to shoot her right beside the wound she inflicted on herself.
That's a very good point, Abs. I don't, however, rule it out as a possibility. Sometimes the astonishing happens and this case seems to be crammed with astonishing events.
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Well, if the cops did shoot Sheila then jb hasn't a hope in he'll of ever being released. I can't see Essex police admitting that, they will continue to with hold info and make any appeal or application for appeal as difficult as possible. Imagine the outrage! It would bring the whole judiciary into doubt, there would be an absolute uproar, so jb will stay inside I'm afraid, it will never be admitted to.
That's if the police did shoot her, I still can't see it myself.
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It has been said that all that was heard on the open telephone line was a dog barking.But how do we actually know that? If this is indeed true,then why have EP refused to release the recordings?
I realise that this is really far fetched,but is it possible that whilst removing gun from Sheila in order to make safe,it accidently went off,causing the second shot? I find it interesting that the firearms team had a de-briefing after the event.They usually go back to log their weapons and ammo back in and usually only have a de-briefing when they have actually had to fire their weapons.Its also very telling that none of them gave evidence in court and none of them have ever given any media interviews.
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If June and Sheila were both initially found on the bed,I cant understand what the purpose was of them both being moved to the floor.Unless it was part of the reinactment?
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It has been said that all that was heard on the open telephone line was a dog barking.But how do we actually know that? If this is indeed true,then why have EP refused to release the recordings?
Because it is recorded in the police logs.
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If June and Sheila were both initially found on the bed,I cant understand what the purpose was of them both being moved to the floor.Unless it was part of the reinactment?
You put someone on the floor in order to give them cardiac massage being the rhythmic compression of the chest and heart in an effort to restore and maintain circulation after a trauma.
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My husband has had a severe nosebleed for some days, and I learned something from that in connection to the blood pattern on Sheila's right arm.
My husband got one of those sudden bouts of blood running from his nose when I was sitting facing him. The first thing he did was to take his hand to his nose and lean forward, and what I saw, startled me.
A large drop of blood ran down his arm, and it looked EXACTLY like the stripes of blood down Sheila's arm (as shown in picture), except there was only one. It dried very quickly in that pattern with the heavier pooling at the bottom; the blood was arrested there, in very much the same location as what is seen on Sheila´s arm, i.e. halfway around the arm, same angle of bloodstripe. It was amazing to see how fast it dried - five minutes tops. AND there was no blood on his shirt apart from a few small stains at the bottom of his shirt, NONE at the top (he was sitting on a sofa leaning forward).
I have always wondered how Sheila got those distinctive stripes of blood on her arm - now I've seen how. She must have put her hand to her (first) wound, then leaned forward in an upright position, and blood wouldn't necessarily make its way to the front of her nightgown.
I wish I had taken a picture of the stripe of blood on my husband's arm - but he was annoyed that I just sat there gawking at the blood as it was! (Can't blame him! :P)
Hmm so your proposing...the blood dripped from her first neck wound, with Sheila upright, onto her arm...
so far so good...
but if she holds her arm long enough in this position...to get the drips to fall onto it... then her forearm is fairly vertical....the blood flows from the frips on her arm should then basically head towards her elbow...
I do not see the correct flow pattern for this explanation in the pictures.. So I am inclined to reject this explanation....
If her arm was in a position under her neck for a few seconds...long enough to get enough drips of blood on her arm she would then need to lower her arm to a more horizontal position fairly quickly to reproduce the blood stains displayed.
This does not seem to me to be a satisfactory explanation.
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Its clear from a number of pictures that most the blood loss from Sheila pooled in the right underarm area....
This area of pooled blood seemed to have dripped onto the carpet to give the distinct pattern found in the area by the right shoulder when her body was being carried and moved into position.
It's clear Sheila was moved... and in my view when she was being carried blood from the pooling in the right underarm area would drip...now if her right arm was dangling down when being moved it would drip onto her arm in several places...and run from there when her arm was placed across her when on the floor or similar.
This seems feasible and makes sense...though not ruling out other possibilities...I favour something like I have described.
I cannot agree with that. IMO, the blood you see on the photo would have formed this pattern by Sheila holding her hand to her wound - and I think she must have been sitting or standing still for some minutes. And it must be blood from the first wound.
In your scenario I think there would have been some splatter on the arm from where the drops fell. I don't see that.
Lets get a bit more scientific and think harder here...
You dont see blood splatter on the arm...
This may be because there was none...or the conditions were not right to produce observable splatter, or the picture quality is too poor to show minute splatter.
ok whats important for blood splatter
1/ velocity and mass of blood when striking a surface.
in the scenario I propose the blood drops will not be of large mass ... and the velocity if fairly low...the drops fall approx 10 to 12 inches (250cm to 300cm)...ie they are not travelling too fast...
think of physics and accelearation due to gravity...It is likely the drops were not falling fast enough to produce much or any observable splatter.
2/ instead of falling onto a hard surface the drops are falling onto the victims skin which is flexible and elastic rather than hard...this will absorb some of the drops impact...a small factor but critical for bloodsplatter.
3/ angle of the surface being struck... this is not going to be 90 degrees to the skin surface ... if there is splatter it will propel forward a little and then be covered by flow from where the drop landed. the lesser angle of impact means splatter will be minimal
4/ the drops were not falling onto an established pool of blood .
5/ the source of blood for the drips I envisage has pooled in the armpit area of the nightdress. This is blood that has been out of the body for a few minutes and will be a bit more viscous than fresh blood as it reacts with air making the drops less likely to splatter on impact.
SUMMING UP...
there is no reason to expect observable blood splatter for the scenario I proposed so the absence of observable blood splatter is no reason to reject that scenario.
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If June and Sheila were both initially found on the bed,I cant understand what the purpose was of them both being moved to the floor.Unless it was part of the reinactment?
You put someone on the floor in order to give them cardiac massage being the rhythmic compression of the chest and heart in an effort to restore and maintain circulation after a trauma.
What ? Even somebody with livor motis,or even rigor mortis?
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I think both June and Sheila were found on the bed at some point, and that both bodies were moved onto different parts of the bedroom floor, June was moved in the vicinity of the bedroom door and Sheila was placed on the floor on the opposite side of the bed. A big clue to what did take place can be found amongst the notes of PS Adams interview by COLP where at the end of the notes, he makes mention of the fact that after discussing the position of Sheila's body in the bedroom with two of his colleagues, they were of the opinion that June and Sheila must have been sat in bed reading the bible before the shootings started...
Now why would PS Adams say that, if there was not any truth in it?
Lots of good points in this thread, Mike. +1
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I just cannot see why and how one of the police officers shot Sheila. Please explain, because it makes no sense at all to me!
These days it is called 'death by cops'. One notable recent incident was that of Raoul Moat. It is a stand-off situation whereby the police shoot an armed person.
Suicide by cops. In Sheila's case
::) Or is it called suicide by cops? Something like that. There was also the case of that barrister in London who was hanging out of his window, while armed. He was taken out by the police.
Suicide by cops. Though might death by cops be more appropriate to this case?
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::) Or is it called suicide by cops? Something like that. There was also the case of that barrister in London who was hanging out of his window, while armed. He was taken out by the police.
In this particular case, he presented as a danger to the public and to police. What would you rather them do, seal off the entire area for weeks?
"After firing his shotgun at neighbours from the window of his £2.2million flat, Mr Saunders repeatedly shot at police during a five-hour siege.
"A senior police source said: "He shot at police officers at 5pm, 9pm and again at 9.30pm.
"We tried everything possible to contain and negotiate with him but this was a real threat with real bullets.
"He was shooting at police officers and members of the public. We never wanted to shoot him."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-565474/Siege-Barrister-shot-dead-police-taking-anti-depressants.html#ixzz1QTfbUWim
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My husband has had a severe nosebleed for some days, and I learned something from that in connection to the blood pattern on Sheila's right arm.
My husband got one of those sudden bouts of blood running from his nose when I was sitting facing him. The first thing he did was to take his hand to his nose and lean forward, and what I saw, startled me.
A large drop of blood ran down his arm, and it looked EXACTLY like the stripes of blood down Sheila's arm (as shown in picture), except there was only one. It dried very quickly in that pattern with the heavier pooling at the bottom; the blood was arrested there, in very much the same location as what is seen on Sheila´s arm, i.e. halfway around the arm, same angle of bloodstripe. It was amazing to see how fast it dried - five minutes tops. AND there was no blood on his shirt apart from a few small stains at the bottom of his shirt, NONE at the top (he was sitting on a sofa leaning forward).
I have always wondered how Sheila got those distinctive stripes of blood on her arm - now I've seen how. She must have put her hand to her (first) wound, then leaned forward in an upright position, and blood wouldn't necessarily make its way to the front of her nightgown.
I wish I had taken a picture of the stripe of blood on my husband's arm - but he was annoyed that I just sat there gawking at the blood as it was! (Can't blame him! :P)
Hmm so your proposing...the blood dripped from her first neck wound, with Sheila upright, onto her arm...
so far so good...
but if she holds her arm long enough in this position...to get the drips to fall onto it... then her forearm is fairly vertical....the blood flows from the frips on her arm should then basically head towards her elbow...
I do not see the correct flow pattern for this explanation in the pictures.. So I am inclined to reject this explanation....
If her arm was in a position under her neck for a few seconds...long enough to get enough drips of blood on her arm she would then need to lower her arm to a more horizontal position fairly quickly to reproduce the blood stains displayed.
This does not seem to me to be a satisfactory explanation.
I'm impressed with some of your arguments, smiffy, however, I'm unsure about the vertical elevation of the arm. Place your hand on your neck where Sheila's wound was and it slants with your elbow pointing out and downwards,. The slant of the arm is more vertically elevated than horizontal.
However, if you then apply heavy pressure - to stem bleeding and counter pain - the contraction of your muscles shortens the length of the muscles and raises you arm, making the slant even more horizontal.
Try to sustain this pressure for a few moments and you might find yourself applying harder pressure to relieve muscle tetany in the arm: this increased pressure further contracts arm muscles and further raises the arm.
Your arm will soon begin to ache as muscle tetany sets in yet you can relieve this by leaning forward to rest your arm on something nearby, say a bedside table? That could give your arm a wholly horizontal elevation.
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If you were shot in the neck Keira, what is the first thing you would do?
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If you were shot in the neck Keira, what is the first thing you would do?
Perhaps lie down and bleed on the bed or floor. However, my response might depend on a number of factors, including the extent of my injury and how determined a suicide I was. For example:
"In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him."
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Link to the above report:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide
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If you were shot in the neck Keira, what is the first thing you would do?
Perhaps lie down and bleed on the bed or floor. However, my response might depend on a number of factors, including the extent of my injury and how determined a suicide I was. For example:
"In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him."
How about put your hand(s) on your wound?
Resulting in blood covering your palms(s). Notice how Sheila did not have such a blood covering.
Nor was there any on any of the mechanisms of any of the rifles.
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If you were shot in the neck Keira, what is the first thing you would do?
Perhaps lie down and bleed on the bed or floor. However, my response might depend on a number of factors, including the extent of my injury and how determined a suicide I was. For example:
"In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him."
How about put your hand(s) on your wound?
Personally, I think I'd fall down first, then put my hands on my wound when - and if - I recovered my composure.
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If you were shot in the neck Keira, what is the first thing you would do?
Perhaps lie down and bleed on the bed or floor. However, my response might depend on a number of factors, including the extent of my injury and how determined a suicide I was. For example:
"In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him."
How about put your hand(s) on your wound?
Resulting in blood covering your palms(s). Notice how Sheila did not have such a blood covering.
Nor was there any on any of the mechanisms of any of the rifles.
Sheila bloody right palm print is clearly observed on her nightdress in photos. That in my view is unmistakable ...so blood was on her palm at some time.
The pathologist even recorded this.
The photographs available online do not show the inner aspects of Sheila's right arm to show the blood trails etc or her palm.
How did the blood get on her palm...there are several credible/plausible ways I can think of.
1/ Holding her hand to her first neck wound...
2/ Her hand placed at some time (maybe when her body was moved) on the bloodied nightdress in the vicinity of the main bloodstaining in the right arm area.
3/ When being carried, her right arm dangling down, blood drips onto her right arm from the pooling in the underarm area of her nightdress...this blood runs down the inner aspect of her arm to her palm.
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It may be better to refer to other better photos of the bloodstains on Sheila's right arm.
It is very hard to establish clearly how the bloodstaining was formed without viewing the inner aspects of her arm to see how the blood trails ran .
Where do the trails start and stop etc.
From the pictures that are available there are 5 distinct trails that seem to start/stop on the outer aspect of Sheila's right arm...4 of which are in closely aligned and the other a little out.
Picture quality limits the interpretation ...so hard to clarify with certainty whether they were start points of the blood trails or end points. I am inclined to think they are end points......
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If they are indeed end points...then blood has flowed around the arm to the underside of her arm when the trail was formed and this has to be the lowest point at which pooling formed from which drops of blood may have fallen.. however the pools have dried so the arm had to have this outer aspect of the arm facing downwards for a while...while the blood dried .
The trails thus made indicate basically her right forearm was near horizontal with palm upwards and her hand raised a little higher than her elbow. (her hand probably resting on something).
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The bloody palm print on the nightdress is of interest.
I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.
With schizophrenic killers it is fairly normal for them to go through some ritualistic behaviour after the killings took place. Sheila seems to have followed this well known pattern in her changing clothes and cleaning herself.
Her nightdress being clean and without blood from others and no firearms residue or other mess it seems being worn by Sheila after she had washed post killing.
The bloodstains eventually deposited on Sheila's nighdress all seemed to have been sourced from herself with no reason to think they may be from any other person.
we then need to theorise...
The blood on her right palm can only have come from after the first wound was delivered.
If a suicide attempt and palm bloodstain made by herself ......
after getting blood on her palm she makes contact with her nighdress.....maybe she then passes out for a while.
There should be blood on her right palm...hmmm
There was an interval between the first and second shots.....OK
The blood on her right palm dries ....so when she picks up the rifle to shoot herself the second and fatal time no blood is deposited on the rifle from her palm.
Sheila has a bloodstained right hand...(hmmm we dont see her palm in the photographs).
So unless some naughty policemen are lying...her hand should be bloodstained on the palm.....
ah...so maybe someone cleaned her hand ....
ah ...what about Sheila...she shoots herself the first time....gets blood on her palm.makes the palm print... some time after this but before shooting herself the second time...she decides bizarrely to wash her hands ?.... SORRY DONT BUY THIS ...JUST TOO SILLY FOR WORDS .
so if some police are not lying and her hands were clean...then could the ones who are seeing the clean hands be telling the truth because some naughty policeman has cleaned her hands before the other police saw her hands...
Now why would they be doing that?
Why tamper with the evidence?
or was her palm really bloodstained all along and lies are being told in order to frame JB and cover up a police screw up.
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I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.
It's interesting to note that an experienced pathologist did not attribute the wounds to Ralph's arm as being caused by fingernails.
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The bloody palm print on the nightdress is of interest.
I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.
With schizophrenic killers it is fairly normal for them to go through some ritualistic behaviour after the killings took place. Sheila seems to have followed this well known pattern in her changing clothes and cleaning herself.
Her nightdress being clean and without blood from others and no firearms residue or other mess it seems being worn by Sheila after she had washed post killing.
The bloodstains eventually deposited on Sheila's nighdress all seemed to have been sourced from herself with no reason to think they may be from any other person.
we then need to theorise...
The blood on her right palm can only have come from after the first wound was delivered.
If a suicide attempt and palm bloodstain made by herself ......
after getting blood on her palm she makes contact with her nighdress.....maybe she then passes out for a while.
There should be blood on her right palm...hmmm
There was an interval between the first and second shots.....OK
The blood on her right palm dries ....so when she picks up the rifle to shoot herself the second and fatal time no blood is deposited on the rifle from her palm.
Sheila has a bloodstained right hand...(hmmm we dont see her palm in the photographs).
So unless some naughty policemen are lying...her hand should be bloodstained on the palm.....
ah...so maybe someone cleaned her hand ....
ah ...what about Sheila...she shoots herself the first time....gets blood on her palm.makes the palm print... some time after this but before shooting herself the second time...she decides bizarrely to wash her hands ?.... SORRY DONT BUY THIS ...JUST TOO SILLY FOR WORDS .
so if some police are not lying and her hands were clean...then could the ones who are seeing the clean hands be telling the truth because some naughty policeman has cleaned her hands before the other police saw her hands...
Now why would they be doing that?
Why tamper with the evidence?
or was her palm really bloodstained all along and lies are being told in order to frame JB and cover up a police screw up.
But at this point in time the Police believed that Sheila HAD done it. Why would they wash her hands to make it look like she didn't?
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The bloody palm print on the nightdress is of interest.
I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.
With schizophrenic killers it is fairly normal for them to go through some ritualistic behaviour after the killings took place. Sheila seems to have followed this well known pattern in her changing clothes and cleaning herself.
Her nightdress being clean and without blood from others and no firearms residue or other mess it seems being worn by Sheila after she had washed post killing.
The bloodstains eventually deposited on Sheila's nighdress all seemed to have been sourced from herself with no reason to think they may be from any other person.
we then need to theorise...
The blood on her right palm can only have come from after the first wound was delivered.
If a suicide attempt and palm bloodstain made by herself ......
after getting blood on her palm she makes contact with her nighdress.....maybe she then passes out for a while.
There should be blood on her right palm...hmmm
There was an interval between the first and second shots.....OK
The blood on her right palm dries ....so when she picks up the rifle to shoot herself the second and fatal time no blood is deposited on the rifle from her palm.
Sheila has a bloodstained right hand...(hmmm we dont see her palm in the photographs).
So unless some naughty policemen are lying...her hand should be bloodstained on the palm.....
ah...so maybe someone cleaned her hand ....
ah ...what about Sheila...she shoots herself the first time....gets blood on her palm.makes the palm print... some time after this but before shooting herself the second time...she decides bizarrely to wash her hands ?.... SORRY DONT BUY THIS ...JUST TOO SILLY FOR WORDS .
so if some police are not lying and her hands were clean...then could the ones who are seeing the clean hands be telling the truth because some naughty policeman has cleaned her hands before the other police saw her hands...
Now why would they be doing that?
Why tamper with the evidence?
or was her palm really bloodstained all along and lies are being told in order to frame JB and cover up a police screw up.
But at this point in time the Police believed that Sheila HAD done it. Why would they wash her hands to make it look like she didn't?
to frame JB as the other relatives had info that would blow apart the suicide story the police had been concocting and had kept covered up..
poor framing though ...hence the relatives latched onto it and used it to their own advantage...
remember it is the police that claim her hands were clean...IT STICKS OUT IN EVIDENCE THAT THEY WANT PEOPLE TO FOCUS ON THIS POINT... wonder why?..
in the suicide case ...it may be that its reported her right palm was bloodstained...
that and other reasons may be why statements etc from that investigation have never been released as it would blow the whole murder case against JB apart.
The police clean her hands but it implies JB must have done it...for we should expect the bloodstains to be on the rifle...if Sheila shot herself... but not if someone else shot her.... but this fails to take into account that the bloodstains had time to dry between the first and second shot so accounting for no palm print on the rifle!...so the idea that some bright spark bent EP officer had...was not such a good one as first thought.
think about it...Sheila cant possibly have cleaned her own right hand after shooting herself...that makes no sense and if someone is trying to fake a suicide they will do their best to make it look right...
Going by the silly JB did it story....erm he shoots her somewhere else....bloody hell why no blood on her feet or clothes from others ??????? etc but somehow he manhandles her from the first suicide location to a second location and waits and waits...for time between shots prove this...
and then he delievers the second shot... but just a minute...Sheila has blood on her right palm and there isnt any on the rifle...DOH....What to do ??? oh dear as well best not notice the bloody palm print on Sheila's nightdress thats so damn obvious...
I know thinks JB...to get around the no bloody palm print on the rifle I will wash Sheila's right hand...that'll sort it and trick the police etc....as he cant see the palm print thats staring him in the face...
So JB washes Sheila's hand very very carefully before staging her hand on the rifle...just as the police did..... happy now JB ignores the bloody palm print that was made by Sheila's hand as the police will not see that or think how it was made and that Sheila's hand had been bloody once but wasnt when found..hmmm
so a rather incredible tale eh....I think so...
why didnt he just leave it ...her hand as is if the bloodstaining on the hand was dry by this time..it would be on no consequence....and if still wet...then it would have made a palm print on the rifle anyway..
its a lot of trouble washing her hand and not leaving traces...and it takes time... CAN WE THINK OF A BETTER MORE CONVINCING RUSE...?
I can... place Sheila's hand onto the wet bit of bloodsoaked nightdress and then place it onto the rifle to leave a corresponding palm print... only takes seconds and accouts for the palm print on the nightdress.
hmm GOOD IDEAS eh..
How about naughty policeman...he could place Sheila's hand on the blood and then onto the nightdress and then wash it.... and leave out the rifle ..just to make it look "if needed" like someone else shot Sheila and screwed up as her palm print wasnt on the rifle.
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I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.
It's interesting to note that an experienced pathologist did not attribute the wounds to Ralph's arm as being caused by fingernails.
He clearly lied on this issue....most likely under pressure to do so by EP. To make it easier ..he was probably initially spun a less serious story to get his compliance and once duped into that...it was hard to back off.
They can have as much experience and as many qualifications as they like...it does not stop them making mistakes or telling lies.
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I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.
It's interesting to note that an experienced pathologist did not attribute the wounds to Ralph's arm as being caused by fingernails.
He clearly lied on this issue....most likely under pressure to do so by EP. To make it easier ..he was probably initially spun a less serious story to get his compliance and once duped into that...it was hard to back off.
They can have as much experience and as many qualifications as they like...it does not stop them making mistakes or telling lies.
Hmmm I think you are deluded in this case, particularly given the fact that the post mortem was carried out prior to JB being in the frame.
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I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.
It's interesting to note that an experienced pathologist did not attribute the wounds to Ralph's arm as being caused by fingernails.
He clearly lied on this issue....most likely under pressure to do so by EP. To make it easier ..he was probably initially spun a less serious story to get his compliance and once duped into that...it was hard to back off.
They can have as much experience and as many qualifications as they like...it does not stop them making mistakes or telling lies.
Hmmm I think you are deluded in this case, particularly given the fact that the post mortem was carried out prior to JB being in the frame.
There you go...you get kicked into touch and all you can come up with is some stupid way out claim that I am deluded...
Look at the pictures of Ralphs arm...look at the pathologists report.
Simple he lied...YOU KNOW IT....and when faced with the truth ...you attack the person who tells the truth rather than deal with reality.
People who cannot accept reality are the deluded ones...and that very much looks like you HARTLEY.
ahem....the post mortem was carried out on the day well before JB was in the frame...but the notes were not written up and reported on until JB was in the frame... well the notes used to wrongly convict him...
were other notes etc made by the pathologist for the suicide story originally being attempted by EP...and within the files kept secret by PII.....Very probably... and its likely they are rather different from the ones used in the procedings.
Yes okay Smiffy.
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like your repeated joining and leaving the forum Hartley....is that some mental health issue going on in your head that leads to your abnormal behaviour and thoughts?
Yep that's right.
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like your repeated joining and leaving the forum Hartley....is that some mental health issue going on in your head that leads to your abnormal behaviour and thoughts?
Yep that's right.
Good to see you can at least acknowledge the situation.
Now if only you could do the same. ;D
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Now your having a silly moment again.
I have joined once and never left and am not deluded unlike yourself and your claims about me seem to arise from your delusions.
Oh well, glad that's sorted then.
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I have to agree with Hartley about the wounds on Nevill´s arm. I don´t think that fingernails could have made them. It looks like marks from the barrel of a gun.
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Now your having a silly moment again.
I have joined once and never left and am not deluded unlike yourself and your claims about me seem to arise from your delusions.
Well - you're half right.
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smiffy, you're an angry person. There is every chance that the marks on Ralph's arm were inflicted by a third person, and that's why they match the marks on Sheila's arm.
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from an online forensic science site article..
4. fingertip/pad bruises
Where an assailant has forcefully gripped a person, for example around the neck (e.g. during attempted manual strangulation) or arms etc, one may see small discoid or ovoid bruises in a cluster. These may be discrete, but are often blurred or may 'merge' with one another, due to the dynamic nature of assaults and struggles with an assailant. Sites to look for these bruises include,
The neck
The arms
The face and trunk in children
The inner thighs in suspected sexual assault
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We can all google, smiffy. Please bring it on, I'm just in the mood.
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Smiffy why don't you wind your neck in and simply respect that other people have different views and opinions to yourself, it doesn't mean they're right and you're wrong or vice versa, but stop being so bloody obnoxious and rude to everybody who holds a different view.
Come on moderators, there's enough of you, I thought you were put in place to stop this sort of nonesense?
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aww
nothing wrong with my posts...
seems you are unable to stand up to challenges eh Hartley.
back up the views with something sensible...not ridiculous nonsense Hartley.
respect is earned ...not given to any poster who wants to spout rubbish with claims etc that dont stand up.
You said it pal.
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I have to agree with Hartley about the wounds on Nevill´s arm. I don´t think that fingernails could have made them. It looks like marks from the barrel of a gun.
DONT BE DAFT... never in a million years were those marks caused by a rifle barrel .
SUCH STUPID COMMENTS ....shows how desperate the anti JB are in my view.
what sharp bits are there on the end of a rifle barrel that could make those marks?....answer none...!
4 marks in a pattern that are bruises and finger nail gouges...perfect match.
oh wasnt the argument that the rifle had a silencer fitted....and the larger diameter of the silencer makes the claim look even more ridiculous....oh and surely any gouge of ralphs skin by a silencer...(joke) would introduce his blood and skin into the silencer...thus rendering the so called silencer blood being a match to sheilas blood type as useless...what with June's dna being found in it..
so the Sheila's blood in the silencer claim is gone...and all that goes with it ..
fact is...the bruises and associated gouge injuries on Ralphs arm were inflicted by Sheila.
Here's the challenge....Go reproduce those injuries ...impossible with a rifle of the types present at WHF........... But oh so easy to reproduce by someone with fingernails of the appropriate size.
ABS -1
Smiffy, please read the below copy and paste, and try to post your replies with this in mind.
Don't attack others. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully.
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When did you get so grown up, Paul? You've certainly scared me off. It's goodnight from me...............
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Whilst we are at it can we remove or reword this rule?
Any complaints received about posts/topics thathave information that can not be proven will be removed as soon as we become aware of them
Otherwise 75% of this forum should be deleted.
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Whilst we are at it can we remove or reword this rule?
Any complaints received about posts/topics thathave information that can not be proven will be removed as soon as we become aware of them
Otherwise 75% of this forum should be deleted.
rofl......think you might have a point!!
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When did you get so grown up, Paul? You've certainly scared me off. It's goodnight from me...............
Sorry Shona, i'm still the same happy go lucky fool. Sometimes someone has to jump in and restore some order, this time it was me.
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Whilst we are at it can we remove or reword this rule?
Any complaints received about posts/topics thathave information that can not be proven will be removed as soon as we become aware of them
Otherwise 75% of this forum should be deleted.
Yeah yeah, very droll, thats why IMO should be added as a compulsory disclaimer at the bottom of each post
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Whilst we are at it can we remove or reword this rule?
Any complaints received about posts/topics thathave information that can not be proven will be removed as soon as we become aware of them
Otherwise 75% of this forum should be deleted.
Yeah yeah, very droll, thats why IMO should be added as a compulsory disclaimer at the bottom of each post
Just saying what I see. 8)
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I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.
It's interesting to note that an experienced pathologist did not attribute the wounds to Ralph's arm as being caused by fingernails.
He clearly lied on this issue....most likely under pressure to do so by EP. To make it easier ..he was probably initially spun a less serious story to get his compliance and once duped into that...it was hard to back off.
They can have as much experience and as many qualifications as they like...it does not stop them making mistakes or telling lies.
Hmmm I think you are deluded in this case, particularly given the fact that the post mortem was carried out prior to JB being in the frame.
Whilst dated 30 day of September 1985 Professor Peter Vanezis carried out the post mortems on the 7 day of August 1985 commencing at 3.30pm and completing such “on the afternoon of the 8th August 1985.” The witness statement was not made until over a month after the post mortems. Those present at the post mortems were: D.I. Miller, D.I. Cook, D.S. Davidson and PC Wright who acted as an officer for the Coroner.
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I wont bother with considering JB or a hitman as the killer...for the fingernail gouges on Ralph's arm and other things satisfy me fully the Sheila killed the other 4.
It's interesting to note that an experienced pathologist did not attribute the wounds to Ralph's arm as being caused by fingernails.
He clearly lied on this issue....most likely under pressure to do so by EP. To make it easier ..he was probably initially spun a less serious story to get his compliance and once duped into that...it was hard to back off.
They can have as much experience and as many qualifications as they like...it does not stop them making mistakes or telling lies.
Hmmm I think you are deluded in this case, particularly given the fact that the post mortem was carried out prior to JB being in the frame.
Whilst dated 30 day of September 1985 Professor Peter Vanezis carried out the post mortems on the 7 day of August 1985 commencing at 3.30pm and completing such “on the afternoon of the 8th August 1985.” The witness statement was not made until over a month after the post mortems. Those present at the post mortems were: D.I. Miller, D.I. Cook, D.S. Davidson and PC Wright who acted as an officer for the Coroner.
That's ominous for a start.
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I have to agree with Hartley about the wounds on Nevill´s arm. I don´t think that fingernails could have made them. It looks like marks from the barrel of a gun.
DONT BE DAFT... never in a million years were those marks caused by a rifle barrel .
SUCH STUPID COMMENTS ....shows how desperate the anti JB are in my view.
what sharp bits are there on the end of a rifle barrel that could make those marks?....answer none...!
4 marks in a pattern that are bruises and finger nail gouges...perfect match.
oh wasnt the argument that the rifle had a silencer fitted....and the larger diameter of the silencer makes the claim look even more ridiculous....oh and surely any gouge of ralphs skin by a silencer...(joke) would introduce his blood and skin into the silencer...thus rendering the so called silencer blood being a match to sheilas blood type as useless...what with June's dna being found in it..
so the Sheila's blood in the silencer claim is gone...and all that goes with it ..
fact is...the bruises and associated gouge injuries on Ralphs arm were inflicted by Sheila.
Here's the challenge....Go reproduce those injuries ...impossible with a rifle of the types present at WHF........... But oh so easy to reproduce by someone with fingernails of the appropriate size.
ABS -1
Smiffy, please read the below copy and paste, and try to post your replies with this in mind.
Don't attack others. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully.
OOOPS, hadn´t seen that, Smiffs. Mostly I don´t read your posts, since I have you on ignore. I just made an exception and gave you a
-1 back. Can´t you stop being so rude? Is it impossible for you? I think you bring a very negative vibe to the forum - it is a shame.
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TIME YOU TOOK NOTICE OF MY POST abs.
You might learn things and accept that the injuries on Ralphs arm cannot have been caused by the end of a rifle.
While you keep claiming such an incorrect notion you expose yourself to ridicule.
truth hurts those who are foolish and those who hide behind lies.
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TIME YOU TOOK NOTICE OF MY POST abs.
You might learn things and accept that the injuries on Ralphs arm cannot have been caused by the end of a rifle.
While you keep claiming such an incorrect notion you expose yourself to ridicule.
truth hurts those who are foolish and those who hide behind lies.
I don't see anybody on here ridiculing Abs...
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TIME YOU TOOK NOTICE OF MY POST abs.
You might learn things and accept that the injuries on Ralphs arm cannot have been caused by the end of a rifle.
While you keep claiming such an incorrect notion you expose yourself to ridicule.
truth hurts those who are foolish and those who hide behind lies.
I don't see anybody on here ridiculing Abs...
Good grief, you better not disagree with Smiffs! :o
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Made a little cartoon...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E1rM73T1rs
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Made a little cartoon...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E1rM73T1rs
Abs, I think I love you!!!
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Made a little cartoon...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E1rM73T1rs
Abs, I think I love you!!!
Smiffy doesn´t. ;)
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Made a little cartoon...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E1rM73T1rs
Smiffy... must admit... that cartoon is canny funny! Though Smiffy himself has accumulated quite a ratio of smites also. I had a chuckle the other day when I noticed the figures.
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Made a little cartoon...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E1rM73T1rs
Smiffy... must admit... that cartoon is canny funny! Though Smiffy himself has accumulated quite a ratio of smites also. I had a chuckle the other day when I noticed the figures.
I can make a "Smiffy Gets Smited" cartoon later...
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Smiffy Gets Smited
http://www.youtube.com/user/asbisi?feature=mhee#p/a/u/1/pTQ9TtXxY8c
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The Moderator Stops the Sillyness
http://www.youtube.com/user/asbisi?feature=mhee#p/a/u/0/S_wLtcScACY
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Can you do an X rated one with shona and smiffy finally giving a release to all that pent up sexual frustration between them? It's like watching Burton & Taylor when they get going on here. Talk about on screen chemistry, I feel like I have to log out sometimes...
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Brilliant Abs. :)
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Can you do an X rated one with shona and smiffy finally giving a release to all that pent up sexual frustration between them? It's like watching Burton & Taylor when they get going on here. Talk about on screen chemistry, I feel like I have to log out sometimes...
It´s done - uploading now. An office romance.
Thanks HMEssex. :)
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A Love Story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-gB03xFFzg
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ABS!! What have you done??!!
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ABS!! What have you done??!!
NOTHING!
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I'm crying with laughter here, you're so funny Abs!
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Abs, you're an evil genius!! Talk about hoist on my own petard.....!!
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Abs, you're an evil genius!! Talk about hoist on my own petard.....!!
I can make more? You have some funny punchlines!
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Please don't!! If you could see how red my cheeks are!!
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I can make one with someone else. Harters? Bob? Take your pick.
Seriously, do you want me to delete it? It is a Rochy´s fault, he asked for it...
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I can make one with someone else. Harters? Bob? Take your pick.
Seriously, do you want me to delete it? It is a Rochy´s fault, he asked for it...
No, don't delete it, they're all brilliant. I wonder if smiffy and I should have a forum baby.......what am I saying!!
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I won´t use that sentence.... ;)
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note...the silly childish behaviour of some is clear.
the diversion because your opinion fails to stand to argument is apparent.
no one has delivered on the challenge.....read back you know what it is...ABS...
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Made a little cartoon...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E1rM73T1rs
Smiffy... must admit... that cartoon is canny funny! Though Smiffy himself has accumulated quite a ratio of smites also. I had a chuckle the other day when I noticed the figures.
-666 by any chance?
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The Moderator Stops the Sillyness
http://www.youtube.com/user/asbisi?feature=mhee#p/a/u/0/S_wLtcScACY
You're a total legend Abs ;D ;D ;D
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Thank you Bob! I made Smiffs into a movie star, and he can´t even appreciate it! 8) And I still don´t agree with him.
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like the videos abs, you should do one with us all in it!! a feature film ;)
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so come on abs...not seen any crap stuff you made...why should I bother..
How about you come up with some crackpot method using a rifle and explain just how it could make the gouges photographed on Ralphs arm....an impossible task.
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so come on abs...not seen any crap stuff you made...why should I bother..
How about you come up with some crackpot method using a rifle and explain just how it could make the gouges photographed on Ralphs arm....an impossible task.
Smiffy - from my viewpoint you are on the right side in the debate about this case and you do come up with some good points. However I would urge you to lighten up a bit and not take any disagreement as a personal attack. Abs has made some good points herself and overall appears to me to be more on the innocent side of the debate. She is certainly not one of the trolls who infest the site from time to time. You really should view the animations posted by Abs. They are really hilarious and they are not in any way malicious. I am only jealous that I am not famous like you and shonapugs!
On the point about the cause of the injuries to Nevill's arm you have made a fair case for your view but Abs disagrees. It is a legitimate and important point for debate and I have to say I am undecided. Whatever may be the correct view on the cause of the injuries I do not believe that it should result in any personal animosity between posters.
Have a look at the animations - you will have a good laugh!
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Thank you ngb!
I admit that my videos are a tad childish, but seriously, I also find it childish to smite people for not agreeing with you. :o