Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: David1819 on October 30, 2019, 06:55:PM
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According to Vanesiz autopsy notes. These marks on Nevils arm was caused by the end of the rifle barrel.
By scaling a photo of the barrel plus and minus silencer to a cm on the measuring tape in the autopsy photo. We can make size comparisons to the wounds on the arm.
(https://i.ibb.co/s29WXFq/Marks-on-arm-02.jpg)
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I don't think the marks were caused by either as the wounds would have been bigger, meaning the surrounding areas as the centres of both objects are hollow and wouldn't have made the same depth of injury as we see.
Those burns would more likely have come from a more solid object.
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I don't think the marks were caused by either as the wounds would have been bigger, meaning the surrounding areas as the centres of both objects are hollow and wouldn't have made the same depth of injury as we see.
Those burns would more likely have come from a more solid object.
Thank you Lookout, I didn't realise you were qualified in forensic pathology?
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Thank you Lookout, I didn't realise you were qualified in forensic pathology?
I'm not, it's just that the burns don't match up with either two parts of the rifle to my mind.
Perhaps it was down to Sheila's confusion when she'd put the poker in the gun cupboard.
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I'm not, it's just that the burns don't match up with either two parts of the rifle to my mind.
Perhaps it was down to Sheila's confusion when she'd put the poker in the gun cupboard.
These are not the burns. Those are on his back.
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I'm not, it's just that the burns don't match up with either two parts of the rifle to my mind.
Perhaps it was down to Sheila's confusion when she'd put the poker in the gun cupboard.
'The gun cupboard' was just a cupboard under the stairs, it was just an old poker, the kind of thing you might find in 'the cupboard under the stairs'. They match up pretty much to me (without the silencer of course).
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These are not the burns. Those are on his back.
His skin has been burned because it looks like how a burn from a cigarette/cigar would look like.
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His skin has been burned because it looks like how a burn from a cigarette/cigar would look like.
Lookout, the pathologist can tell the different between burns and lesions.
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I remember saying years ago that they were more like cigar burns.
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I remember saying years ago that they were more like cigar burns.
Well, they aren't.
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His skin has been burned because it looks like how a burn from a cigarette/cigar would look like.
According to Vanezis -
"There is a collection of bruises on right forearm
_____ of end of barrel of rifle
Area of bruising 2"x 4" Slight bruising around elbow"
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Well, they aren't.
And you would know ??
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Chances are those wounds could well have been inflicted when in a deceased state, much the same as some of the gunshots were, in a sadistic way.
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And you would know ??
Nope! But Venezis would!
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Chances are those wounds could well have been inflicted when in a deceased state, much the same as some of the gunshots were, in a sadistic way.
It looks to me like he was raising his arm to protect his face. Hence his forearm has those marks.
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Nope! But Venezis would!
How can you trust someone who'd said that Sheila's hands were clean, then they weren't ?
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How can you trust someone who'd said that Sheila's hands were clean, then they weren't ?
I think Venezis knows the difference between burns an lesions.
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I think Venezis knows the difference between burns an lesions.
Like clean and dirty you mean ?
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Like clean and dirty you mean ?
I've have already argued the point about Sheila's hands - MANY times! However, to suggest that you can better identify marks we can all actually see on a photograph then the examining pathologist is quite astounding. You can tell they're not burns - no need to rewrite the whole case history!
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Where did Vaneziz say the injuries were caused by the end of the rifle barrel?
They were possibly caused by the edge of either the barrel or the silencer, or by the foresight.
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It looks to me like he was raising his arm to protect his face. Hence his forearm has those marks.
I agree. I need to look into this more, but it does look like that. It would be natural for Nevill to try to shield himself in that way.
It's interesting though because there are several lesions close together, which suggests to me that he was just holding his arm in the same position. That further suggests to me that the lesions were made in the later stages of the attack when he was fairly stationary rather than moving around trying to fight off his attacker. I'm not sure what can be read into that, but I wonder why Jeremy would continue to beat him when he was fairly defenceless.
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I agree. I need to look into this more, but it does look like that. It would be natural for Nevill to try to shield himself in that way.
It's interesting though because there are several lesions close together, which suggests to me that he was just holding his arm in the same position. That further suggests to me that the lesions were made in the later stages of the attack when he was fairly stationary rather than moving around trying to fight off his attacker. I'm not sure what can be read into that, but I wonder why Jeremy would continue to beat him when he was fairly defenceless.
Something about finally giving voice to years of anger and frustration about his needs not being met, perhaps?
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Something about finally giving voice to years of anger and frustration about his needs not being met, perhaps?
Hmmm, I don't know. I just wonder what his plan was. Did he hope to shoot them all in bed, apart from Sheila,or did he expect any of them to put up a fight? I don't think that an assault/fight in the kitchen was something he anticipated. Wouldn't he just kill Nevill at the first opportunity?
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You see, some people have said that Sheila could not have fought with Nevill in the kitchen because she wasn't strong enough. However, I think that a fight between Jeremy and Nevill would be more unlikely, especially as Nevill had already been shot in the bedroom (hadn't he?).
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Hmmm, I don't know. I just wonder what his plan was. Did he hope to shoot them all in bed, apart from Sheila,or did he expect any of them to put up a fight? I don't think that an assault/fight in the kitchen was something he anticipated. Wouldn't he just kill Nevill at the first opportunity?
I'll answer your last question first. He'd certainly have had the choice of killing Nevill at the first opportunity but doing such might risk him being suspected and he still wouldn't gain anything because June would have been the major benefactor. Much more convenient to plan it round an already emotionally unstable sister and make it look as if it was she who was responsible. It was well planned, but we don't always think about ALL "what ifs" and it was this which let him down. I DO believe he'd planned for everyone -other than Sheila- to be in bed. I certainly don't believe he'd anticipated what happened in the kitchen -another reason for the violence of the beating, perhaps? Even at the last, Nevill manages to foil him?- it MAY have thrown him off guard which MAY have been the reason for the first and botched shot at Sheila. I don't he was thinking straight, OR he simply had no concept of the deep love most mothers have for their children, because Sheila would never have chosen to take her life with her mother, rather than the children she adored.
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You see, some people have said that Sheila could not have fought with Nevill in the kitchen because she wasn't strong enough. However, I think that a fight between Jeremy and Nevill would be more unlikely, especially as Nevill had already been shot in the bedroom (hadn't he?).
Well Adam has certainly laboured the point that Nevill wouldn't have had it!!!! That he simply would never have allowed Sheila to wield a gun and would have demanded that she put it down or simply have taken it from her. Personally, I'm inclined to believe bullets and trigger fingers move faster than people, especially wounded people. On a more serious note, I think for any parent, the unthinkable horror of finding themselves facing a child intent on shooting them, would, at the very least, stop them, temporarily, in their tracks.
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I'll answer your last question first. He'd certainly have had the choice of killing Nevill at the first opportunity but doing such might risk him being suspected and he still wouldn't gain anything because June would have been the major benefactor. Much more convenient to plan it round an already emotionally unstable sister and make it look as if it was she who was responsible. It was well planned, but we don't always think about ALL "what ifs" and it was this which let him down. I DO believe he'd planned for everyone -other than Sheila- to be in bed. I certainly don't believe he'd anticipated what happened in the kitchen -another reason for the violence of the beating, perhaps? Even at the last, Nevill manages to foil him?- it MAY have thrown him off guard which MAY have been the reason for the first and botched shot at Sheila. I don't he was thinking straight, OR he simply had no concept of the deep love most mothers have for their children, because Sheila would never have chosen to take her life with her mother, rather than the children she adored.
Nevill's Will specified that after certain bequests, the main residue of his estate would go to Jeremy, so there was no advantage in killing Nevill after June. In fact, some people have said he would kill Nevill first to take out the main resistance. I haven't seen June's Will, so I don't know what it said.
Let's say that the plan went wrong, and Nevill wasn't killed or incapacitated in the bedroom. He went down to the kitchen for some reason and Jeremy followed him. Would Jeremy really be in such a rage that he beat Nevill rather than kill him straightaway in some kind of revenge?
I can't read anything into where Sheila would have shot herself.
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Well Adam has certainly laboured the point that Nevill wouldn't have had it!!!! That he simply would never have allowed Sheila to wield a gun and would have demanded that she put it down or simply have taken it from her. Personally, I'm inclined to believe bullets and trigger fingers move faster than people, especially wounded people. On a more serious note, I think for any parent, the unthinkable horror of finding themselves facing a child intent on shooting them, would, at the very least, stop them, temporarily, in their tracks.
It depends on where that gun is pointing! I don't know that I would attempt to take a loaded gun off someone who was pointing it at me, or who was threatening to kill themselves.
Nevill wasn't stopped in his tracks. I understand that he was shot in the bedroom at some point, which would have been a shock, but he went downstairs after that to the kitchen.
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Nevill's Will specified that after certain bequests, the main residue of his estate would go to Jeremy, so there was no advantage in killing Nevill after June. In fact, some people have said he would kill Nevill first to take out the main resistance. I haven't seen June's Will, so I don't know what it said.
Let's say that the plan went wrong, and Nevill wasn't killed or incapacitated in the bedroom. He went down to the kitchen for some reason and Jeremy followed him. Would Jeremy really be in such a rage that he beat Nevill rather than kill him straightaway in some kind of revenge?
I can't read anything into where Sheila would have shot herself.
None of us, I imagine, feel comfortable if/when plans, we've put time and energy into, are thwarted. Imagine, then, if those plans, when they came to fruition, were going to change our lives in every way we believed were important. Imagine if we'd risked everything, burned our boats, left ourselves no escape room and it's so very nearly there, within grasp, so close we can taste it.......................and then the person we may believe to be the cause of us having to take such risks -at no small cost to ourselves- stands ready to prevent us attaining our goal. Yeh! I can see he'd feel pretty murderous.
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It depends on where that gun is pointing! I don't know that I would attempt to take a loaded gun off someone who was pointing it at me, or who was threatening to kill themselves.
Nevill wasn't stopped in his tracks. I understand that he was shot in the bedroom at some point, which would have been a shock, but he went downstairs after that to the kitchen.
Oh, you're right. At one point it was a matter of SO little consequence -just a gun being waved around- that, at silly o' clock in the morning, he was able to, allegedly, take time out to call Jeremy and allegedly the police -although no one have ever said whether he did, as Jeremy, and call random police stations before finding one manned, OR call 999. We have all of these facts which taken individually are feasible, however. when they're put together, make no sense at all.
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Oh, you're right. At one point it was a matter of SO little consequence -just a gun being waved around- that, at silly o' clock in the morning, he was able to, allegedly, take time out to call Jeremy and allegedly the police -although no one have ever said whether he did, as Jeremy, and call random police stations before finding one manned, OR call 999. We have all of these facts which taken individually are feasible, however. when they're put together, make no sense at all.
I think it depends on the circumstances. Sheila might have been holding the gun and refusing to put it down, or she might have been threatening to kill herself with it. It's possible that Nevill didn't think she would start shooting everyone, so he rang Jeremy. Sheila might have suddenly run up the stairs, and that's why Nevill dropped the phone and went after her.
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I think it depends on the circumstances. Sheila might have been holding the gun and refusing to put it down, or she might have been threatening to kill herself with it. It's possible that Nevill didn't think she would start shooting everyone, so he rang Jeremy. Sheila might have suddenly run up the stairs, and that's why Nevill dropped the phone and went after her.
Why would calling Jeremy help with any of that?
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Why would calling Jeremy help with any of that?
Nevill might have wanted Jeremy to come over to help calm Sheila down or to help get the gun off her.
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Nevill might have wanted Jeremy to come over to help calm Sheila down or to help get the gun off her.
Why? Why not just ask June? It makes no sense.
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Why? Why not just ask June? It makes no sense.
Perhaps he didn't want to involve June.
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Nevill might have wanted Jeremy to come over to help calm Sheila down or to help get the gun off her.
I'd totally concur if I believed such to be an habitual thing, but I can't think why Nevill would call Jeremy, who acknowledged that he only saw Sheila once every 4-6 weeks(?) and admitted that he didn't like her and she didn't like him.
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Perhaps he didn't want to involve June.
So he urgently wants to disarm Sheila but phones Jeremy for help when help is readily at hand?
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I don't see a problem with Nevill calling Jeremy (although I don't know if he did).
It's very difficult to work out the order in which things happened, but if Nevill did call him, it must have been before he was injured, and I would think before any shooting started. If there was shooting going on, I think he would have called the police or tried to get the gun off Sheila. He clearly didn't do that until he was attacked himself.
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I don't see a problem with Nevill calling Jeremy (although I don't know if he did).
It's very difficult to work out the order in which things happened, but if Nevill did call him, it must have been before he was injured, and I would think before any shooting started. If there was shooting going on, I think he would have called the police or tried to get the gun off Sheila. He clearly didn't do that until he was attacked himself.
But why, at that hour, would he get Jeremy out of bed, if there was nothing more serious than Sheila throwing a wobbly? You've mentioned the discrepancy in their heights and sizes -and by no means was he an 'old' 60+ year old. He was fit- so could, presumably, have relieved Sheila of the gun. Not only that, but Lookout reminds us that Nevill spent HOURS on the phone calming Sheila during the night. So really, he had no need to call Jeremy at that hour.
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What is not disputed, as Jeremy has said it is Nevill said -
Sheila's gone crazy.
She's got the gun.
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Then the line went dead.
Nevill simultaneously thought the situation was serious enough to ring Jeremy. But not so serious that he was able to spend several minutes making the call & another 40 minutes waiting for him to arrive.
I have no idea what Sheila could have been doing with the gun, for Nevill to contradict himself so much.
The CT are even saying Nevill spent around another 10 minuts to call the police, 15 minutes after calling Jeremy.
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I don't see a problem with Nevill calling Jeremy (although I don't know if he did).
It's very difficult to work out the order in which things happened, but if Nevill did call him, it must have been before he was injured, and I would think before any shooting started. If there was shooting going on, I think he would have called the police or tried to get the gun off Sheila. He clearly didn't do that until he was attacked himself.
It's difficult to work out because it didn't happen.
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Supporters have to give some suggestions of what crazy thing/s Sheila was doing with the gun. Which simultaneously -
Made Nevill want to ring Jeremy.
Gave Nevill enough time to ring Jeremy.
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I cannot think of what she could have been doing.
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Hopefully supporters will now submit some suggestions.
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Nevill wasn't shot in bed was he? Where was he and what was he doing before the shooting started?
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Nevill wasn't shot in bed was he? Where was he and what was he doing before the shooting started?
He was shot in the bedroom by his bed. After Jeremy entered.
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He was shot in the bedroom by his bed. After Jeremy entered.
So how did he get past Jeremy in order to go down to the kitchen?
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So how did he get past Jeremy in order to go down to the kitchen?
Personally, I don't think he had to get passed Jeremy. I think Jeremy came straight back to WHF after calling Julie (possibly on the pretence of apologising for an earlier argument over the rape seed load). I think he waited for Nevill to go in the shower (thus all adults are separated), shot the twins, then incapacitated June and Sheila and shot Nevill as he came up the stairs.
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So how did he get past Jeremy in order to go down to the kitchen?
By running past him.
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Hopefully supporters will now submit some suggestions.
It seems that no one is going to give any suggestions to reply 41.
Not sure why there is such passionate support for Jeremy if a basic question cannot be answered.
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Supporters have to give some suggestions of what crazy thing/s Sheila was doing with the gun. Which simultaneously -
Made Nevill want to ring Jeremy.
Gave Nevill enough time to ring Jeremy.
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I cannot think of what she could have been doing.
Obviously Sheila had not started firing the rifle. As Nevill would not have been able to phone Jeremy.
Apart from firing the rifle, not sure what else Sheila could have been doing with it that would be crazy.
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Personally, I don't think he had to get passed Jeremy. I think Jeremy came straight back to WHF after calling Julie (possibly on the pretence of apologising for an earlier argument over the rape seed load). I think he waited for Nevill to go in the shower (thus all adults are separated), shot the twins, then incapacitated June and Sheila and shot Nevill as he came up the stairs.
A very interesting theory. So you think that Nevill was still up when Jeremy came back. Wouldn't he have heard Jeremy getting into the house?
Then there's the issue of the cartridges in the bedroom. They were mostly grouped on the side of the bedroom nearest the door, but I suppose Nevill could have been shot as he got to the doorway from the landing.
I don't think he could have just incapacitated Sheila at that time. I think the two bullets fired at Sheila happened one after another, and I don't think Sheila would have been in the main bedroom at that time.
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Obviously Sheila had not started firing the rifle. As Nevill would not have been able to phone Jeremy.
Apart from firing the rifle, not sure what else Sheila could have been doing with it that would be crazy.
Threatening to kill herself maybe? It depends on your definition of "crazy".
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By running past him.
Oh right, so Nevill was injured and yet he managed to get past Jeremy who had a gun and get all the way to the kitchen before Jeremy caught up with him. It's possible that Jeremy was out of bullets at that point of course.
Is there any real evidence that Nevill was shot in the bedroom other than the presence of empty cartridges?
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Threatening to kill herself maybe? It depends on your definition of "crazy".
Threatening to kill herself. Why?
How did that escalate to 4 x murder & a brutal fight. Why would Nevill ring Jeremy?
Nevill would just take the rifle off her.
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Threatening to kill herself. Why?
How did that escalate to 4 x murder & a brutal fight. Why would Nevill ring Jeremy?
Nevill would just take the rifle off her.
People do threaten to kill themselves you know. According to Jeremy, there had been some debate about the children earlier.
It might not have occurred to Nevill that she would kill anyone else. Perhaps she was pointing the gun at her neck. Would you risk taking it off her?
Nevill might have phoned Jeremy so he could come and help talk her out of it.
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Oh right, so Nevill was injured and yet he managed to get past Jeremy who had a gun and get all the way to the kitchen before Jeremy caught up with him. It's possible that Jeremy was out of bullets at that point of course.
Is there any real evidence that Nevill was shot in the bedroom other than the presence of empty cartridges?
We will have to go by the empty cartridges as evidence. Together with the fact that Nevill slept in the bedroom next to June who was also shot there. Where else would Bamber open fire on him?
Nevill would have got past Bamber. He will move quickly if being shot at.
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People do threaten to kill themselves you know. According to Jeremy, there had been some debate about the children earlier.
It might not have occurred to Nevill that she would kill anyone else. Perhaps she was pointing the gun at her neck. Would you risk taking it off her?
Nevill might have phoned Jeremy so he could come and help talk her out of it.
Oh yes I forgot about the conversations with Sheila over supper.
Nevill did not do a very good job of persuading Jeremy to help him calm Sheila down. Eleven words in 4 seconds. Jeremy did not go within 50 feet of the front door.
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We will have to go by the empty cartridges as evidence. Together with the fact that Nevill slept in the bedroom next to June who was also shot there. Where else would Bamber open fire on him?
Nevill would have got past Bamber. He will move quickly if being shot at.
I've said that Nevill was shot in the bedroom, but there's no evidence that he just got out of bed. He wasn't shot in bed - that's obvious.
You don't agree with Caroline then. She thinks Nevill was shot as he came up the stairs.
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Oh yes I forgot about the conversations with Sheila over supper.
Nevill did not do a very good job of persuading Jeremy to help him calm Sheila down. Eleven words in 4 seconds. Jeremy did not go within 50 feet of the front door.
Something might have happened to make Nevill drop the phone.
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Something might have happened to make Nevill drop the phone.
Yes something must have happened.
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People do threaten to kill themselves you know. According to Jeremy, there had been some debate about the children earlier.
It might not have occurred to Nevill that she would kill anyone else. Perhaps she was pointing the gun at her neck. Would you risk taking it off her?
Nevill might have phoned Jeremy so he could come and help talk her out of it.
Why didn't Nevill ask June to help him talk Sheila out of it?
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People do threaten to kill themselves you know. According to Jeremy, there had been some debate about the children earlier.
It might not have occurred to Nevill that she would kill anyone else. Perhaps she was pointing the gun at her neck. Would you risk taking it off her?
Nevill might have phoned Jeremy so he could come and help talk her out of it.
I'd have thought Jeremy would have been the very last person he'd have called for that purpose. Besides which, had she been hell bent on suicide, she'd hardly have given her father the chance to talk her out of it.
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I've said that Nevill was shot in the bedroom, but there's no evidence that he just got out of bed. He wasn't shot in bed - that's obvious.
You don't agree with Caroline then. She thinks Nevill was shot as he came up the stairs.
Bamber opened fire on June. Five shots in quick succession while she slept. Silencer on meaning minimal noise.
Nevill was next but woke & got out of bed seconds beforehand.
Bamber still managed two close range head shots before retreating backwards as Nevill advanced. Nevill was a big man.
Bamber's next two shots were from feet rather than inches away. Both hitting Nevill in the torso.
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Why didn't Nevill ask June to help him talk Sheila out of it?
Sheila might have been angry with June because of the earlier discussion. Maybe Nevill didn't think June should be around guns. I don't know, but I don't really have a problem with the idea of Nevill ringing Jeremy. I'm not saying he did ring Jeremy, just that he could have done.
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I'd have thought Jeremy would have been the very last person he'd have called for that purpose. Besides which, had she been hell bent on suicide, she'd hardly have given her father the chance to talk her out of it.
People do threaten to kill themselves, but they don't always do it. Think of people threatening to jump off a building - they don't always just do it straightaway.
Jeremy hadn't been involved in the discussion at supper time. Perhaps Nevill thought he could be of help if they needed to physically get the gun off her.
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Bamber opened fire on June. Five shots in quick succession while she slept. Silencer on meaning minimal noise.
Nevill was next but woke & got out of bed seconds beforehand.
Bamber still managed two close range head shots before retreating backwards as Nevill advanced. Nevill was a big man.
Bamber's next two shots were from feet rather than inches away. Both hitting Nevill in the torso.
Wouldn't Nevill have attacked Jeremy rather than run past him? He would be concerned about June surely.
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People do threaten to kill themselves, but they don't always do it. Think of people threatening to jump off a building - they don't always just do it straightaway.
Jeremy hadn't been involved in the discussion at supper time. Perhaps Nevill thought he could be of help if they needed to physically get the gun off her.
Exactly so. There are also those who kill to make it look like suicide.
Interesting. Are you accepting that Jeremy told the entire truth about "the discussion at supper time"? Jeremy had full control over relating what occurred because he was the only one to come out of it alive.
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I'm now wondering if there's something in what Caroline said earlier. I've said that Nevill was shot in the bedroom, and that's because of the empty cartridges in there. However, perhaps he was shot on the landing with the shooter standing in the bedroom. It could be that he heard the shots which were aimed at June and came upstairs. Isn't that more likely than him rushing past Jeremy when he knew his wife had been shot next to him in bed?
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Exactly so. There are also those who kill to make it look like suicide.
Interesting. Are you accepting that Jeremy told the entire truth about "the discussion at supper time"? Jeremy had full control over relating what occurred because he was the only one to come out of it alive.
I think that discussion probably did take place. That doesn't mean anything re Jeremy's guilt or innocence. I think that June was concerned about the future of the twins.
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I think that discussion probably did take place. That doesn't mean anything re Jeremy's guilt or innocence. I think that June was concerned about the future of the twins.
Is it not also possible that there was some sort of altercation between Jeremy and Nevill regarding a trailer?
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Is it not also possible that there was some sort of altercation between Jeremy and Nevill regarding a trailer?
I don't know anything about that Jane.
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I thought the heated argument was about the fostering of the children, not the trailer which Nevill had told Jeremy that he'd do it and for Jeremy to get himself home ready for another day's harvesting next day. Then there was the other chap who took his trailer to the caravan park where he was staying at the time.
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I thought the heated argument was about the fostering of the children, not the trailer which Nevill had told Jeremy that he'd do it and for Jeremy to get himself home ready for another day's harvesting next day. Then there was the other chap who took his trailer to the caravan park where he was staying at the time.
Jeremy has carte blanche to write a script any way he sees fit. It's quite ridiculous to think Nevill would have told Jeremy to get off home with any equanimity when there was still work left to do. Poor Jeremy probably hadn't put in as many hours as had Nevill who was nearly three times his age.
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Wouldn't Nevill have attacked Jeremy rather than run past him? He would be concerned about June surely.
He was being shot in the face and torso. He had no idea what type of gun it was or how many more bullets were left. He would not know who the attacker was.
So tried to escape to prevent being killed.
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Sheila might have been angry with June because of the earlier discussion. Maybe Nevill didn't think June should be around guns. I don't know, but I don't really have a problem with the idea of Nevill ringing Jeremy. I'm not saying he did ring Jeremy, just that he could have done.
There were no fostering discussions at supper.
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Sheila might have been angry with June because of the earlier discussion. Maybe Nevill didn't think June should be around guns. I don't know, but I don't really have a problem with the idea of Nevill ringing Jeremy. I'm not saying he did ring Jeremy, just that he could have done.
Nevill should have got June. It might have stopped her being shot 5 times while asleep.
Jeremy arrived 40 minutes later & wouldn't go within 50 feet of WHF.
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Hmmm, I don't know. I just wonder what his plan was. Did he hope to shoot them all in bed, apart from Sheila,or did he expect any of them to put up a fight? I don't think that an assault/fight in the kitchen was something he anticipated. Wouldn't he just kill Nevill at the first opportunity?
I think he tested the rifle on the twins first, then proceeded into the master bedroom where he opened fire again, then shooting Nevill again in the hallway as the latter made a desperate attempt to reach the kitchen telephone.
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Nevill's Will specified that after certain bequests, the main residue of his estate would go to Jeremy, so there was no advantage in killing Nevill after June. In fact, some people have said he would kill Nevill first to take out the main resistance. I haven't seen June's Will, so I don't know what it said.
Let's say that the plan went wrong, and Nevill wasn't killed or incapacitated in the bedroom. He went down to the kitchen for some reason and Jeremy followed him. Would Jeremy really be in such a rage that he beat Nevill rather than kill him straightaway in some kind of revenge?
I can't read anything into where Sheila would have shot herself.
A common misconception is Nevill left everything to Jeremy. In fact he bequeathed his liquid assets to his wife with £10000 going to his daughter, the farming business went to Jeremy, though I doubt Nevill in his heart of hearts really felt his son was going to persist with it. June left her share Osea Road to Sheila along with an adjoining field, to be managed by James Carr, the residue of her estate bequeathed to Jeremy.
Of course with five victims dying at the same time the stipulations of the will were in effect made meaningless, as Jeremy would inherit everything.
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.qualitysolicitors.com/jordans/news/2019/10/jeremy-bamber-case-statement-following-mirror-article&ved=2ahUKEwiHlN2nq87lAhWuQEEAHVufAnE4FBAWMAR6BAgEEAE&usg=AOvVaw1M-aOTGxmjGr73dbyg8SSA
Ohhhh.
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.qualitysolicitors.com/jordans/news/2019/10/jeremy-bamber-case-statement-following-mirror-article&ved=2ahUKEwiHlN2nq87lAhWuQEEAHVufAnE4FBAWMAR6BAgEEAE&usg=AOvVaw1M-aOTGxmjGr73dbyg8SSA
Ohhhh.
They have no legal leg to stand on, however much they care to dress it up.
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"We do not propose therefore as Jeremy's legal team to further elaborate on the grounds to be advanced or other actions that may be imminent at this stage , however we expect to make a further statement in the coming weeks"
Isn't that a contradiction? We're not going to say anything but will say something in the coming weeks? ???
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"We do not propose therefore as Jeremy's legal team to further elaborate on the grounds to be advanced or other actions that may be imminent at this stage , however we expect to make a further statement in the coming weeks"
Isn't that a contradiction? We're not going to say anything but will say something in the coming weeks? ???
They're not going to be specific at this stage but leave us dangling until the story is forgotten or there will be less expectation for them to produce something worthwhile.
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There were no fostering discussions at supper.
In your opinion.
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In your opinion.
Kaldin it simply wouldn't have happened. June was fiercely protective of the twins, it was the reason she bought Sheila the Maida Vale flat in the first place, she had even on one occasion waited outside the school gates on a Friday afternoon to take them to the Farm. There may have been some suggestion that local girls be brought in to care for them whilst Sheila spent a holiday in Bournemouth but to imply somehow that Social Services become involved with the Bambers at Witham is a nonsense.
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Kaldin it simply wouldn't have happened. June was fiercely protective of the twins, it was the reason she bought Sheila the Maida Vale flat in the first place, she had even on one occasion waited outside the school gates on a Friday afternoon to take them to the Farm. There may have been some suggestion that local girls be brought in to care for them whilst Sheila spent a holiday in Bournemouth but to imply somehow that Social Services become involved with the Bambers at Witham is a nonsense.
And Colin had custody so it was never their decision to make.
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I do think there was a conversation about Sheila's future and that of the twins. Whether that contained references to fostering, I have no idea.
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I do think there was a conversation about Sheila's future and that of the twins. Whether that contained references to fostering, I have no idea.
I imagine such conversations take place in many homes. Grandparents like to be abreast of what's happening in their adult children and grandchildren's lives................especially when they're helping financially.
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I do think there was a conversation about Sheila's future and that of the twins. Whether that contained references to fostering, I have no idea.
There was indeed, instigated by Jeremy wishing to sow familial discord, accusing his sister of being an unfit mother and that her children would be taken away from her. Fortunately I don't think Sheila was too troubled, knowing how popular the twins were with her parents, but angering Nevill, which is why farm secretary Barbara Wilson sensed the discord when she telephoned later that evening at 9:30pm.
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Bamber had no need to start an argument when he went for supper. It would make no difference to his 2am attack.
He would have loaded the rifle complete with silencer & may have gone out to shoot imaginary rabbits.
He would have monitored Sheila to make sure she would be easily controlled. Then made sure neither of the twins had been rushed to hospital with a sprained ankle etc. He may have left the downstairs bathroom window ajar & left the rifle in an easy to access location.
After this it was home to ring Julie & make sure the bikes tyres were fully pumped.
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All this is speculation.
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All this is speculation.
Now that's overpraising them a bit don't you think?
I call it fiction. ;D
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All this is speculation.
Well it is a fact that Jeremy went for supper, loaded the rifle, went out to shoot rabbits, rang Julie & brought June's bike over just before the massacre.
It is also correct that there was no point in him starting arguments it would make no difference to the 2am attack.
Bamber had no choice to go to supper before the massacre. To make sure everything was in place.
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Well it is a fact that Jeremy went for supper, loaded the rifle, went out to shoot rabbits, rang Julie & brought June's bike over just before the massacre.
It is also correct that there was no point in him starting arguments it would make no difference to the 2am attack.
Bamber had no choice to go to supper before the massacre. To make sure everything was in place.
It's interesting that you say it's a fact that Jeremy went for supper and went out to shoot rabbits. You have only his word for that.
Don't know anything about the bicycle.
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I do think there was a conversation about Sheila's future and that of the twins. Whether that contained references to fostering, I have no idea.
I think the convo may have been more about Sheila than the twins because June mentioned being concerned about her to Pam.
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It's interesting that you say it's a fact that Jeremy went for supper and went out to shoot rabbits. You have only his word for that.
Don't know anything about the bicycle.
A farm resident heard Bamber leave in his car.
Why would he say he went for supper if he didn't?
Where did Sheila pick up the fully loaded rifle from?
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It's interesting that you say it's a fact that Jeremy went for supper and went out to shoot rabbits. You have only his word for that.
Don't know anything about the bicycle.
It wasn't just the murder scene he needed to stage. He had to arrange a whole believable scenario of what led up to it. Other than those phone calls from Barbara Wilson and Pam, he had a free hand.
The bike was June's. Jeremy had 'borrowed' it. Allegedly to give Julie some means of transport. Julie never used it. It's claimed to have been discovered at Bourtree with yellow mud dried on the spokes.
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A farm resident heard Bamber leave in his car.
Why would he say he went for supper if he didn't?
Where did Sheila pick up the fully loaded rifle from?
Are you now saying that Sheila did pick up the rifle?
You normally question everything that Jeremy said, but now you say you believe him.
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It wasn't just the murder scene he needed to stage. He had to arrange a whole believable scenario of what led up to it. Other than those phone calls from Barbara Wilson and Pam, he had a free hand.
The bike was June's. Jeremy had 'borrowed' it. Allegedly to give Julie some means of transport. Julie never used it. It's claimed to have been discovered at Bourtree with yellow mud dried on the spokes.
So is this an established fact?
brought June's bike over just before the massacre.
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It's possible for Jeremy to committ the masaacre without going for supper beforehand. He could still give the rabbit story.
However that is more risky & there was no harm in a quick visit, monitor & final preperations at WHF.
An independent witness said he heard his car leave WHF. So I believe Jeremy when he said he went to WHF.
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So is this an established fact?
Yes.
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Yes.
Do you have a link to a statement about that?
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Do you have a link to a statement about that?
He talks about bringing the bike over in his interviews which can be found in 'Statements and Transcripts'
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It's possible for Jeremy to committ the masaacre without going for supper beforehand. He could still give the rabbit story.
However that is more risky & there was no harm in a quick visit, monitor & final preperations at WHF.
An independent witness said he heard his car leave WHF. So I believe Jeremy when he said he went to WHF.
Of course he'd been to the farm - he worked there. ???
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He talks about bringing the bike over in his interviews which can be found in 'Statements and Transcripts'
OK, I misunderstood what Adam meant. Jeremy brought the bike to his own house a few days or a week before the murders.
I don't really see that the bicycle is particularly relevant.
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OK, I misunderstood what Adam meant. Jeremy brought the bike to his own house a few days or a week before the murders.
I don't really see that the bicycle is particularly relevant.
Well, as you've dismissed much of what is being discussed - what is it you actually do find relevant?
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Well, as you've dismissed much of what is being discussed - what is it you actually do find relevant?
The silencer and the DNA, Julie's statements, the fact that Jeremy let his relatives into the farmhouse, the empty cartridges, the spare key, the wills, the blood on the bedroom carpet, Sheila's illness, the Bible, the whereabouts of Nevill when he was first shot, the fight in the kitchen, the order of death, etc, etc.
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The silencer and the DNA, Julie's statements, the fact that Jeremy let his relatives into the farmhouse, the empty cartridges, the spare key, the wills, the blood on the bedroom carpet, Sheila's illness, the Bible, the whereabouts of Nevill when he was first shot, the fight in the kitchen, the order of death, etc, etc.
Well, I don't think the silencer was used but still think he's guilty
What about the DNA? Such experiments were carried out long after items were handled by various people
I find it irrelevant that he let the relatives in - so what?
What about the empty cartridges? But while we're on the subject of cartridges - where did the extra five come from on the counter top?
The doors were bolted so the spare key is irrelevant
What about the wills? He doesn't deny reading them.
What about the blood on the bedroom carpet?
Sheila was on medication for her illness
What about the bible?
The last three points call for assumptions. I think Nevill was on the stairs, don't think there was a fight in the kitchen, I think it was staged. We will never know the order of deaths for sure but I have given you my scenario.
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Well, I don't think the silencer was used but still think he's guilty
What about the DNA? Such experiments were carried out long after items were handled by various people
I find it irrelevant that he let the relatives in - so what?
What about the empty cartridges? But while we're on the subject of cartridges - where did the extra five come from on the counter top?
The doors were bolted so the spare key is irrelevant
What about the wills? He doesn't deny reading them.
What about the blood on the bedroom carpet?
Sheila was on medication for her illness
What about the bible?
The last three points call for assumptions. I think Nevill was on the stairs, don't think there was a fight in the kitchen, I think it was staged. We will never know the order of deaths for sure but I have given you my scenario.
I can't answer all those at once. I was merely stating what I found relevant - as you asked.
However, it's interesting that you don't think the silencer was used. Why do you think that?
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I can't answer all those at once. I was merely stating what I found relevant - as you asked.
However, it's interesting that you don't think the silencer was used. Why do you think that?
Because it doesn't fit and having written to Jeremy for some time, it's clear he 'knows' it wasn't used either. It was the source of too much forensic detail for me - far beyond coincidence. The only thing it didn't contain, was a video of the actual murder! ;)
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Because it doesn't fit and having written to Jeremy for some time, it's clear he 'knows' it wasn't used either. It was the source of too much forensic detail for me - far beyond coincidence. The only thing it didn't contain, was a video of the actual murder! ;)
It doesn't fit what? This is most interesting. Could you elaborate?
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It doesn't fit what? This is most interesting. Could you elaborate?
I just did - too much forensic detail - over egged!
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I just did - too much forensic detail - over egged!
So do you think evidence was planted or what?
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So do you think evidence was planted or what?
I presume so.
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I presume so.
Well the paint and blood can't have got there by accident.
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Well the paint and blood can't have got there by accident.
Quite!
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I'm going to assume that you don't want to say what you really think because of the potential for libel.
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There would be a rumpus if Jeremy admitted after 34 years that he killed them all sans silencer. However succour is at hand for the relatives because I believe it was used.
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Of course he'd been to the farm - he worked there. ???
I did not say farm. I said supper.
He could have had supper at his cottage. But he is telling the truth that he went for supper at WHF. For a final check.
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I'm going to assume that you don't want to say what you really think because of the potential for libel.
To an extent but my main protagonist would be Stan Jones. I just think he thought he didn't have enough evidence.
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To an extent but my main protagonist would be Stan Jones. I just think he thought he didn't have enough evidence.
Do you believe Stan Jones put the blood and paint on the silencer. Then asked the relatives to say they found it?
Why would Stan Jones care so much to commit his own crime?
How would Stan Jones know if there was enough evidence or not? If he was in the know, he would know a mountain of forensic & circumstantial evidence against Bamber was building up.
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Do you believe Stan Jones put the blood and paint on the silencer. Then asked the relatives to say they found it?
Why would Stan Jones care so much to commit his own crime?
How would Stan Jones know if there was enough evidence or not? If he was in the know, he would know a mountain of forensic & circumstantial evidence against Bamber was building up.
He did worry he didn't have enough evidence - why he would do that isn't really something I can answer and of course I could be completely wrong. It's an opinion but he was certainly in abetter position than the relatives to be able to do so.
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He did worry he didn't have enough evidence - why he would do that isn't really something I can answer and of course I could be completely wrong. It's an opinion but he was certainly in abetter position than the relatives to be able to do so.
Do you believe that Stan Jones acted alone inside Essex Police?
Why do believe he asked the relatives to say they found the silencer?
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Do you believe that Stan Jones acted alone inside Essex Police?
Why do believe he asked the relatives to say they found the silencer?
What I think in this respect, isn't important. I could only given an opinion anyway.
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What I think in this respect, isn't important. I could only given an opinion anyway.
That is what forums are for. Opinions.
Stan Jones must have put Sheila's blood & the paint onto the silencer. After checking current evidence, the rifle lenght, Sheila's arm lenght, the possibility of back splatter on each victim & the crime scene photos.
Then asked the relatives to say they found the silencer.
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That is what forums are for. Opinions.
Stan Jones must have put Sheila's blood & the paint onto the silencer. After checking current evidence, the rifle lenght, Sheila's arm lenght, the possibility of back splatter on each victim & the crime scene photos.
Then asked the relatives to say they found the silencer.
If you say so.
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I'm quite baffled by Jeremy's stance re these appeals. He seems to concentrate on minor issues really.
Let's just say for a moment that he's innocent. In that case, he must think the evidence was tampered with, it must have occurred to him that the silencer evidence was fake, and he knows that Julie was lying about some things at least. Why isn't he concentrating on those things? He did accuse his cousins of planting evidence, but it was a bit half hearted. Does he really think that Sheila did use the silencer and put it back in the cupboard?
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If you say so.
Well you are the one saying so. Stan Jones had to have asked the relatives to say they found the silencer he fabricated. As the relatives have always said they found it.
But people have different views. David & Jeremy accusing the relatives while Mike has lots of theories.
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Well you are the one saying so. Stan Jones had to have asked the relatives to say they found the silencer he fabricated. As the relatives have always said they found it.
But people have different views. David & Jeremy accusing the relatives while Mike has lots of theories.
Unless it was put there for them to find. That document which a lot of people think is fake - I wonder if Jeremy thinks it's fake. He must know about it, and if he thought it was genuine, he would surely have kicked up a huge fuss.
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I'm quite baffled by Jeremy's stance re these appeals. He seems to concentrate on minor issues really.
Let's just say for a moment that he's innocent. In that case, he must think the evidence was tampered with, it must have occurred to him that the silencer evidence was fake, and he knows that Julie was lying about some things at least. Why isn't he concentrating on those things? He did accuse his cousins of planting evidence, but it was a bit half hearted. Does he really think that Sheila did use the silencer and put it back in the cupboard?
No, he doesn't think Sheila used it - he doesn't think/(know) it was used at all.
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No, he doesn't think Sheila used it - he doesn't think/(know) it was used at all.
Well then he must either know that the evidence was planted, or he must think that the evidence was massively faulty. You'd think he'd concentrate more on that.
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Well then he must either know that the evidence was planted, or he must think that the evidence was massively faulty. You'd think he'd concentrate more on that.
Of course, neither of which make him innocent. He has to be very careful about what he claims to know.
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Of course, neither of which make him innocent. He has to be very careful about what he claims to know.
No he doesn't. He can merely take the stance that he didn't do it, and therefore the evidence must have been planted.
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Well then he must either know that the evidence was planted, or he must think that the evidence was massively faulty. You'd think he'd concentrate more on that.
Well, to be fair, a lot has been concentrated on it but to no avail. Quiet a lot of money was paid a few years ago to have theories 'Re: the silencer' tested but test remain incomplete. It was probably unwise to have submitted the results of such tests until they could have been completed. Here is link the documentary made about the tests.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,370.msg189924.html#msg189924
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Unless it was put there for them to find. That document which a lot of people think is fake - I wonder if Jeremy thinks it's fake. He must know about it, and if he thought it was genuine, he would surely have kicked up a huge fuss.
What document, the one which is supposedly a statement from Stan Jones? It's a fake 100%.
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What document, the one which is supposedly a statement from Stan Jones? It's a fake 100%.
Yes, but how can it be proved it's fake? Who faked it?
In any case, why would that bother Jeremy? If it helps his case, he wouldn't care if it was fake or not.
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Well, to be fair, a lot has been concentrated on it but to no avail. Quiet a lot of money was paid a few years ago to have theories 'Re: the silencer' tested but test remain incomplete. It was probably unwise to have submitted the results of such tests until they could have been completed. Here is link the documentary made about the tests.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,370.msg189924.html#msg189924
Cheers!
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That is what forums are for. Opinions.
Stan Jones must have put Sheila's blood & the paint onto the silencer. After checking current evidence, the rifle lenght, Sheila's arm lenght, the possibility of back splatter on each victim & the crime scene photos.
Then asked the relatives to say they found the silencer.
Stan Jones never had Sheila's blood in his possession.
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Stan Jones never had Sheila's blood in his possession.
What about the canvas shoes he surreptitiously took from WHF as he told AE " you didn't see that ?" Sheila could well have worn them during the murders and if so there'd have been blood on them.
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Stan Jones never had Sheila's blood in his possession.
Thought the police had Sheila's blood in a fridge.
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Thought the police had Sheila's blood in a fridge.
Yes they did. But those samples were up in the Huntingdon lab while Stan Jones had the silencer in his possession.
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And the bloodied canvas shoes.
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Yes they did. But those samples were up in the Huntingdon lab while Stan Jones had the silencer in his possession.
Maybe the 'treacherous' Stan Jones broke into the Huntingdon lab at 2am?
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Maybe the 'treacherous' Stan Jones broke into the Huntingdon lab at 2am?
He wouldn't have known the blood was sent up there. Plus the silencer was already contaminated with blood before he received it.
This effectively rules him out. And narrows the suspect pool down to four people. David Boutfluour, Ann Eaton, Robert Boutflour or Peter Eaton.
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And the bloodied canvas shoes.
There weren't any 'bloodied' canvas shoes!
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He wouldn't have known the blood was sent up there. Plus the silencer was already contaminated with blood before he received it.
This effectively rules him out. And narrows the suspect pool down to four people. David Boutfluour, Ann Eaton, Robert Boutflour or Peter Eaton.
So Stan Jones wasn't so treacherous. It was the relatives who fabricated the silencer.
Julie & the industrial frame team doing the rest.
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So Stan Jones wasn't so treacherous. It was the relatives who fabricated the silencer.
Julie & the industrial frame team doing the rest.
As far as the lab is concerned, we know that they did not understand the dubious circumstances it was found in since DI Cook handed it to them under the pretence that Stan Jones had found it. We know from Mark Webster that Hayward had never seen backspatter in a silencer before. We know from Fletcher's testimony that he does not understand the subject of backspatter very well. And neither has he seen backspatter in a silencer before either. Thus the lab fooled themselves.
No industrial frame.
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There weren't any 'bloodied' canvas shoes!
The black canvas shoes that Sheila wore that day when her and her mother went shopping. Sheila would have worn them with her day clothes that night too. SJ took them away, unless you know/knew where they are/were when pics were taken.?
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It was AE who'd mentioned the black canvas shoes initially saying that Sheila must have had big feet. Did AE not notice that either on someone she'd purported to have known well ?
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The black canvas shoes that Sheila wore that day when her and her mother went shopping. Sheila would have worn them with her day clothes that night too. SJ took them away, unless you know/knew where they are/were when pics were taken.?
So Sheila WOULD, would she? You know this how? I'd say chances are equally high that indoors Sheila went barefoot. I'd also have said it would be rather difficult to see blood on black canvas footwear. Are you saying your eyes detect that there were bloodstains without ever setting eyes on them?
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So Sheila WOULD, would she? You know this how? I'd say chances are equally high that indoors Sheila went barefoot. I'd also have said it would be rather difficult to see blood on black canvas footwear. Are you saying your eyes detect that there were bloodstains without ever setting eyes on them?
Shoes have insides as well as outsides so blood would have been visible/detected on the inside if EP had bothered to examine them----which they didn't as they weren't given an exhibit number for starters.
Why the need to " say nothing " when SJ took them away ?
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Shoes have insides as well as outsides so blood would have been visible/detected on the inside if EP had bothered to examine them----which they didn't as they weren't given an exhibit number for starters.
Why the need to " say nothing " when SJ took them away ?
I'm willing to bet the inner sole of flat, black canvas footwear would also be black. Blood can only be detected if there's blood there to detect. I can't say what was the need to "say nothing" but it crosses my mind that perhaps they should have been seen previously? I can see no valid reason why he should wish to draw AE's attention to them. However, what I AM willing to put money on is that IF those shoes were blood-soaked, the blood was dry, and if it was dry, it would have been flaking off in a fine dust, from the canvas. I doubt AE would have missed it.
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I'm willing to bet the inner sole of flat, black canvas footwear would also be black. Blood can only be detected if there's blood there to detect. I can't say what was the need to "say nothing" but it crosses my mind that perhaps they should have been seen previously? I can see no valid reason why he should wish to draw AE's attention to them. However, what I AM willing to put money on is that IF those shoes were blood-soaked, the blood was dry, and if it was dry, it would have been flaking off in a fine dust, from the canvas. I doubt AE would have missed it.
I don't doubt that any blood on the soles would have been detected or even physically seen on being in the kitchen wearing them. It's only because they'd been large that AE hadn't bagged them. But why were they so sneakily taken without further examination ?
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The black canvas shoes that Sheila wore that day when her and her mother went shopping. Sheila would have worn them with her day clothes that night too. SJ took them away, unless you know/knew where they are/were when pics were taken.?
I know which shoes you're talking about and they weren't blood stained.
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I don't doubt that any blood on the soles would have been detected or even physically seen on being in the kitchen wearing them. It's only because they'd been large that AE hadn't bagged them. But why were they so sneakily taken without further examination ?
Certainly blood would be seen on beige rope soles, but if the shoes were flat it's more than likely that the soles were black. You may be reading WAY too much into the "say nothing" aside. What do you think he was going to do with them, and why. You seem to be suggesting a huge secret that I can see no reason for.
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I know which shoes you're talking about and they weren't blood stained.
It HAS to have been a guess, Caroline. I don't see how Lookout could possibly know.
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It was AE who'd mentioned the black canvas shoes initially saying that Sheila must have had big feet. Did AE not notice that either on someone she'd purported to have known well ?
She didn't say that Sheila 'must' have had big feet - she said Sheila DID have big feet! So yes, she did notice it!
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Shoes have insides as well as outsides so blood would have been visible/detected on the inside if EP had bothered to examine them----which they didn't as they weren't given an exhibit number for starters.
Why the need to " say nothing " when SJ took them away ?
So, you're claiming that a pair of shoes that weren't examined, were blood stained? That's called making it up Lookout!
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So, you're claiming that a pair of shoes that weren't examined, were blood stained? That's called making it up Lookout!
I'm not making anything up. Why did SJ waltz off with them only letting on to AE ? Why aren't they included in the list of exhibits ?
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I'm not making anything up. Why did SJ waltz off with them only letting on to AE ? Why aren't they included in the list of exhibits ?
How do you know he only let on to AE? You weren't privy to what he said to whom after her left the room. Who's to say that there was anything useful on them. It's only you who are insisting that they were blood soaked because you want them to be.
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I'm not making anything up. Why did SJ waltz off with them only letting on to AE ? Why aren't they included in the list of exhibits ?
You said there was blood on the canvas shoes - even though there is no evidence and no one else saying it. What else would you call that?
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You said there was blood on the canvas shoes - even though there is no evidence and no one else saying it. What else would you call that?
Lack of thought.
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Lack of thought.
So you have a lack of thought? OK I'll go with that!
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I'm not making anything up. Why did SJ waltz off with them only letting on to AE ? Why aren't they included in the list of exhibits ?
Check out no. 54!
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Lack of thought.
Well, that's a good place to start from. Who knows where thinking might lead you?
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Well, that's a good place to start from. Who knows where thinking might lead you?
On behalf of others is where the" lack of thought "comes in and not referring to myself.
Then again you don't have to do much thinking do you ? It's already cut and dried and mapped out for you. Far easier to prosecute than to defend !
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On behalf of others is where the" lack of thought "comes in and not referring to myself.
Then again you don't have to do much thinking do you ? It's already cut and dried and mapped out for you. Far easier to prosecute than to defend !
How convenient. You appear to be forgetting all the years I believed he was innocent. I guess you're still holding on 'knowing', with certain knowledge, the shoes were blood soaked.......................WITHOUT seeing them
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How convenient. You appear to be forgetting all the years I believed he was innocent. I guess you're still holding on 'knowing', with certain knowledge, the shoes were blood soaked.......................WITHOUT seeing them
I'm " holding on " to many things that have been conveniently missed out.
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I'm " holding on " to many things that have been conveniently missed out.
See, I can't help but wonder how, if something is genuinely "missed out", how it was ever thought to have there in the first place. Makes it very easy for anyone to jump in and say "Aha, XY and Z are missing". If they've never been seen, how do they know? 'Course, I do realize that there are probably enough fake docs here to paper a lavatory with.
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See, I can't help but wonder how, if something is genuinely "missed out", how it was ever thought to have there in the first place. Makes it very easy for anyone to jump in and say "Aha, XY and Z are missing". If they've never been seen, how do they know? 'Course, I do realize that there are enough fake docs here to paper a lavatory with.
It's quite clear that you've been blinkered while half-heartedly following the case because you'd also have gathered that a number of documents/files are still in existence but hidden away. So this means, to me, that they were already there to begin with, even if it makes no sense in your world.
It's the genuine docs which are hidden from view. Those which make up the missing pieces of the unfinished jig-saw which spell the difference between JB's guilt/innocence.
Don't you imagine that because he'd been found guilty that every page would have been thrown at him and that PII would be empty of every last thing pertaining to this case ?
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It's quite clear that you've been blinkered while half-heartedly following the case because you'd also have gathered that a number of documents/files are still in existence but hidden away. So this means, to me, that they were already there to begin with, even if it makes no sense in your world.
It's the genuine docs which are hidden from view. Those which make up the missing pieces of the unfinished jig-saw which spell the difference between JB's guilt/innocence.
Don't you imagine that because he'd been found guilty that every page would have been thrown at him and that PII would be empty of every last thing pertaining to this case ?
You totally misunderstand me. I'm NOT inclined to think that anything which might reveal Jeremy's innocence has been/is hidden away because I don't believe, IF there had ever been any, they'd be holding onto them. IF they'd ever existed, at the first sniff of interest in the possibility of their existence, they'd have been mysteriously magicked away.
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On behalf of others is where the" lack of thought "comes in and not referring to myself.
Then again you don't have to do much thinking do you ? It's already cut and dried and mapped out for you. Far easier to prosecute than to defend !
Given that you start off being innocent, I'd say it was the other way around.
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So, we're just ignoring the exhibits list?
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2prs of Sheila's footwear mean nothing.
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2prs of Sheila's footwear mean nothing.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D OK Lookout! ::)
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2prs of Sheila's footwear mean nothing.
Well, if you want to go down that road, I guess there's no reason for any item on the list to mean anything either. Might just as well tear it up.