Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: David1819 on October 21, 2019, 03:15:AM
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Bews, Saxby and Bonnet all timed their dispatch to WHF at 3:35am. This means the clocks and watches of CA07 and Bonnet are all in sync.
Bews and Saxby both agree they arrived at WHF at 3:45am
Bonnet heard of their arrival at WHF at 3:48am. This can only be the result of a delayed message from CA07 confirming their arrival at the scene.
Bews and Saxby both agree that Jeremy arrived two minutes after they did. Thus they have Jeremy arriving at 3:47am
And So.
Jeremy calls West at 3:36am and has two conversations with West while also being on hold for six minutes in-between. This means Jeremy got off the phone no sooner than 3:44am.
He then must drive at around 84 mph in order to reach his destination 4.2 miles away at 3:47am. This also allows no time for Jeremy to call Julie, get the car keys, and put clothes on.
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Bews, Saxby and Bonnet all timed their dispatch to WHF at 3:35am. This means the clocks and watches of CA07 and Bonnet are all in sync.
Bews and Saxby both agree they arrived at WHF at 3:45am
Bonnet heard of their arrival at WHF at 3:48am. This can only be the result of a delayed message from CA07 confirming their arrival at the scene.
Bews and Saxby both agree that Jeremy arrived two minutes after they did. Thus they have Jeremy arriving at 3:47am
And So.
Jeremy calls West at 3:36am and has two conversations with West while also being on hold for six minutes in-between. This means Jeremy got off the phone no sooner than 3:44am.
He then must drive at around 84 mph in order to reach his destination 4.2 miles away at 3:47am. This also allows no time for Jeremy to call Julie, get the car keys, and put clothes on.
If however Jeremy calls West 10 minutes earlier. Getting off the phone no sooner than 3:34am. This enables him to have a 9 minute journey to the scene at just under 30mph. The same speed as Bews and Saxby both said they passed him at. It also allows a further three minutes to put clothes on and call Julie prior to leaving.
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Bews' statement is a bit confusing in this respect. He said this:
"About 3.45 on Wednesday 7th August I was on duty with Police Constable 1509 Myall and Police Constable 1995 Saxby, when as a result of information received we went to White House Farm ..."
Myall said much the same thing - he just changed the names. Saxby said he received the info at 3.30 when he was at Witham police station.
Did Bews and Myall mean they received the information at about 3.45 or that they arrived at the farm at about 3.45?
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If however Jeremy calls West 10 minutes earlier. Getting off the phone no sooner than 3:34am. This enables him to have a 9 minute journey to the scene at just under 30mph. The same speed as Bews and Saxby both said they passed him at. It also allows a further three minutes to put clothes on and call Julie prior to leaving.
And your point is..
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And your point is..
Jeremy didn't and couldn't have phoned West at 3.36
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Bews' statement is a bit confusing in this respect. He said this:
"About 3.45 on Wednesday 7th August I was on duty with Police Constable 1509 Myall and Police Constable 1995 Saxby, when as a result of information received we went to White House Farm ..."
Myall said much the same thing - he just changed the names. Saxby said he received the info at 3.30 when he was at Witham police station.
Did Bews and Myall mean they received the information at about 3.45 or that they arrived at the farm at about 3.45?
They both said they arrived at 3.45am
Bews statement is easily misinterpreted. He is talking about the journey to WHF in the past tense.
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They both said they arrived at 3.45am
Bews statement is easily misinterpreted. He is talking about the journey to WHF in the past tense.
They said that later? This is the problem when talking about the timing of certain events. Statements aren't clear, police logs weren't written at the time, etc.
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Jeremy didn't and couldn't have phoned West at 3.36
Agreed. That means that PC West made some kind of mistake when logging the time of the call.
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They said that later? This is the problem when talking about the timing of certain events. Statements aren't clear, police logs weren't written at the time, etc.
No its written in Bews notebook that he made on the day also
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No its written in Bews notebook that he made on the day also
I can't find that. I found his notes, but it says the same as in his statement.
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Agreed. That means that PC West made some kind of mistake when logging the time of the call.
No. In his original statement in mid August he claimed Jeremy rang him just before 3:26am
It was not until the following month he started saying it was 3:36am.
So he got it right and then got it wrong.
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No. In his original statement in mid August he claimed Jeremy rang him just before 3:26am
It was not until the following month he started saying it was 3:36am.
So he got it right and then got it wrong.
He must have made a mistake because Jeremy couldn't have called him at 3.36 and got to the farm at around 3.48.
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He must have made a mistake because Jeremy couldn't have called him at 3.36 and got to the farm at around 3.48.
I know that. But West did get it right at first.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6845.0;attach=41408)
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Did West ever explain why he put 3.36 in his log?
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Did West ever explain why he put 3.36 in his log?
He admitted he could have written it down wrong. ::)
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He certainly did get it wrong !
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He certainly did get it wrong !
He didn't? Then why did Jeremy wait over 25 minutes before calling the police? Why did he say he called the police first before calling Julie because if he called the police at 03:36 then he definitely called Julie first! Also, why did he try to bring a perjury charge against West? Accusing him of altering the log from 03:26 to 03:36 - being adamant that he called earlier and that he called Julie after?
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He certainly did get it wrong !
Has it dawned on you that he wrote a 3 instead of a 2?
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Has it dawned on you that he wrote a 3 instead of a 2?
No. It looks like 03.37 to me which was changed from either 03.45 or 03.49.
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No. It looks like 03.37 to me which was changed from either 03.45 or 03.49.
David is talking about West, not that rubbish from the Mirror.
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David is talking about West, not that rubbish from the Mirror.
Where am I supposed to look ? It was the first Mirror I've bought-----ever.
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This one lookout.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/12/3f/2b/123f2b37b5663efc40a20ee959ceaeaf.jpg)
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I'm sorry but where should I be looking at a 3 which is really a 2 ?
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Where am I supposed to look ? It was the first Mirror I've bought-----ever.
West wrote the time on the log that Kaldin posted, we have no idea who wrote the 03:37 (APPROX and earlier time entry scrubbed out) that was posted in The Mirror. It's a random entry on some other log.
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I'm sorry but where should I be looking at a 3 which is really a 2 ?
Can you see the time West received the call from Jeremy? It says 03.36. That's a problem because when West phoned Bonnet, Bonnet put the time as 3.26.
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Can you see the time West received the call from Jeremy? It says 03.36. That's a problem because when West phoned Bonnet, Bonnet put the time as 3.26.
Somebody wasn't concentrating were they ? 5 murders and more mistakes than enough.
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Somebody wasn't concentrating were they ? 5 murders and more mistakes than enough.
To be fair, PC West didn't know at the time that five people had been or would be murdered.
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Jeremy calls West at 3:36am and has two conversations with West while also being on hold for six minutes in-between. This means Jeremy got off the phone no sooner than 3:44am.
He then must drive at around 84 mph in order to reach his destination 4.2 miles away at 3:47am. This also allows no time for Jeremy to call Julie, get the car keys, and put clothes on.
It's not known how long Jeremy was on hold for. At trial, Pc West thought it was far less than six minutes. Also, Jeremy's journey was about 3.6 miles, not 4.2 miles, as far as I know. Hence he had just enough time to do the trip, assuming he had telephoned Julie and got dressed before he called the police; his car keys were probably in one of his pockets. The trip probably took between 6 and 7 1/2 minutes, depending on how fast he drove (7 1/2 minutes corresponds to 29 mph average speed; 6 minutes corresponds to 36 mph average speed; the police who overtook him mentioned "about 30 mph" or "up to 30 mph" as his speed when overtaken).
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Hopefully the CT will say why Nevill got the Yello Pages out and phoned the sixth furthest away police station. Rather than dial 999.
They are the ones saying it happened & have had enough time to think of a reason.
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Minutes: Miles:
Chelmsford 0.39 21.1
Colchester 0.26 13
Maldon 0.20 7.2
Tiptree 0.10 3.8
Witham 0.27 11.1
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Minutes: Miles:
Chelmsford 0.39 21.1
Colchester 0.26 13
Maldon 0.20 7.2
Tiptree 0.10 3.8
Witham 0.27 11.1
Colchester police station is further than Chelmsford. Tiptree was not even open. Plus according to the police and the operator, Jeremy tried calling Witham, thus you must accept they made this up for no reason if you do not believe it happened.
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Colchester police station is further than Chelmsford. Tiptree was not even open. Plus according to the police and the operator, Jeremy tried calling Witham, thus you must accept they made this up for no reason if you do not believe it happened.
Another poster said Colchester is nearer.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8947.msg424773.html#msg424773
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Colchester police station is further than Chelmsford. Tiptree was not even open. Plus according to the police and the operator, Jeremy tried calling Witham, thus you must accept they made this up for no reason if you do not believe it happened.
Bamber said he tried calling Witham. Then said he didn't.
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Tollshunt D'Arcy to Colchester is 11.4 miles.
Colchester is a big place. It even has it's own professional football team.
Why didn't Jeremy or Nevill call Colchester?
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I don't know where my second nearest police station is. Let alone my sixth.
Jeremy & Nevill looking through the Yello Pages for the 6th furthest away police station, :))
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Bamber said he tried calling Witham. Then said he didn't.
This may be a good point from which to dispel the myths about why it was that Jeremy didn't call 999 immediately.
It's been suggested that he didn't know anything about the 999 system, which is rather odd given that it's the world's oldest Emergency Service phone number and came into service on July 1st 1937 -it must make Jeremy the only person in the country who didn't know how it worked- and up until the mid '90's a BT operator would ask the caller "Which service do you require?" and then alert the relevant service. The Emergency Service call taker would introduce themselves and assist the caller. They would then alert such other services as required.
I really cannot believe that using this well used, tried and trusted method of raising assistance wouldn't have been a much quicker way for Jeremy to get help for his 'terrified' father. I feel certain it wouldn't have taken 20 minutes.
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This may be a good point from which to dispel the myths about why it was that Jeremy didn't call 999 immediately.
It's been suggested that he didn't know anything about the 999 system, which is rather odd given that it's the world's oldest Emergency Service phone number and came into service on July 1st 1937 -it must make Jeremy the only person in the country who didn't know how it worked- and up until the mid '90's a BT operator would ask the caller "Which service do you require?" and then alert the relevant service. The Emergency Service call taker would introduce themselves and assist the caller. They would then alert such other services as required.
I really cannot believe that using this well used, tried and trusted method of raising assistance wouldn't have been a much quicker way for Jeremy to get help for his 'terrified' father. I feel certain it wouldn't have taken 20 minutes.
it may be the oldest system emergency wise. But Bamber was a farmers boy from rural Essex. It's not being ridiculous he carried on the tradition of his mother father, other people in the locality of directly calling a police station
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it may be the oldest system emergency wise. But Bamber was a farmers boy from rural Essex. It's not being ridiculous he carried on the tradition of his mother father, other people in the locality of directly calling a police station
Your terminology is way off course. A "farmers boy" suggests nothing more than a labourer -one of those who, in past times of more deferential days, would doff their cap to the employer- Jeremy, public school educated, was the son of local gentry, and a MAGISTRATE, to boot. Do you not think it odd that such a person, with ties, through his position, to the police, wouldn't have done what other, lesser souls, would automatically do in an emergency.
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What addresses did you use, Adam? I got the figures below with the aid of Google.
Minutes: Miles:
Chelmsford 31 17.7
Colchester 20 11.4
Maldon 16 8.0
Tiptree 8 4.3
Witham 20 10.1
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What addresses did you use, Adam? I got the figures below with the aid of Google.
Minutes: Miles:
Chelmsford 31 17.7
Colchester 20 11.4
Maldon 16 8.0
Tiptree 8 4.3
Witham 20 10.1
That is the same as me in reply 33 for Colchester.
Why didn't Jeremy or Nevill call Colchester police station. It is nearer than Chelmsford?
It's not as if there was only 1 mile difference & they would not know Colchester was nearer. There was a massive difference. Colchester is also a big place.
Hopefully the CT will also provide an answer.
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Your terminology is way off course. A "farmers boy" suggests nothing more than a labourer -one of those who, in past times of more deferential days, would doff their cap to the employer- Jeremy, public school educated, was the son of local gentry, and a MAGISTRATE, to boot. Do you not think it odd that such a person, with ties, through his position, to the police, wouldn't have done what other, lesser souls, would automatically do in an emergency.
my uncle was a magistrate. He was also a supply English teacher. Who liked playing darts at his local club. He had a tattoo saying " Nina"
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my uncle was a magistrate. He was also a supply English teacher. Who liked playing darts at his local club. He had a tattoo saying " Nina"
Nevill was archetypal.
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He had a tattoo saying " Nina"
A talking tattoo that reminds him of a police siren - how punny!
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Maldon is also big and classed as a town. And twice as close to Tollshunt D'arcy than Chelmsford. So even more surprising both Jeremy & Nevill chose to phone Chelmsford after deciding not to ring 999.
Leo McKinstry was right when he said Jeremy's actions on the night were 'deeply incriminating'.
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I was not around in 1985. But why did police operators have a local telephone number if you are not supposed to call them?
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I was not around in 1985. But why did police operators have a local telephone number if you are not supposed to call them?
I was not around either.
Local telephone number?
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If a station wasn't manned, calls would be transferred to one that was, automatically.
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If a station wasn't manned, calls would be transferred to one that was, automatically.
Not necessarily. At the police house -behind the 'shop'- where my friends lived, a recorded message told the caller where the next available police station was but if it was an emergency to call 999.
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Chelmsford police station is 14.3 road miles.
Colchester police station is 13.1 road miles.
However Colchester police station is 11.4 straight miles away while Chelmsford police station is only 11.16 straight miles away.
So technically Chelmsford is closer.
Jeremy had no way of knowing this because internet maps with route planners did not exist. The idea of calling Chelmsford and not Colchester being incriminating is rather baseless as Jeremy couldn't have known the precise distance between the two.
According to Bews and West, Jeremy tried calling Witham. Tiptree police station was only open part time.
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Chelmsford police station is 14.3 road miles.
Colchester police station is 13.1 road miles.
However Colchester police station is 11.4 straight miles away while Chelmsford police station is only 11.16 straight miles away.
So technically Chelmsford is closer.
Jeremy had no way of knowing this because internet maps with route planners did not exist. The idea of calling Chelmsford and not Colchester being incriminating is rather baseless as Jeremy couldn't have known the precise distance between the two.
According to Bews and West, Jeremy tried calling Witham. Tiptree police station was only open part time.
I'm afraid Colchester is over 6 miles nearer than Chelmsford. As stated by me & Reader. Jeremy & Nevill would automatically ring Colchester.
After deciding not to ring the other police stations or 999 of course.
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I was not around in 1985. But why did police operators have a local telephone number if you are not supposed to call them?
Policemen, like others, worked a three shift duty roster. Many lived above/behind the 'shop' with their families. When they were off duty, the phone to the 'shop' was switched off from their home. Friends/relatives could make coded calls which would override the recorded message and go through to the private quarters.
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Bamber said he rang Witham. Then said he didn't.
The judge in his summing up said Bamber should know whether he phoned them or not.
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Braintree is also nearer than Chelmsford. But only slightly. They have a police station.
Jeremy's already getting enough of a hammering on this, so I'll let that go.
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Not necessarily. At the police house -behind the 'shop'- where my friends lived, a recorded message told the caller where the next available police station was but if it was an emergency to call 999.
If there was a 999 call in an unmanned station, it would automatically go through to where it was being manned. This is what went on in my area in the 80's where someone would call what was their local station and find themselves receiving an answer out of area/locality.
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Braintree is also nearer than Chelmsford. But only slightly. They have a police station.
Jeremy's already getting enough of a hammering on this, so I'll let that go.
Braintree was manned 24 hours. It had response cars, cells and a court room but it would have taken very much longer for cars to get from Braintree rather than Chelmsford unless they happened to be out and on another job, in which case the most urgent would take priority.
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If there was a 999 call in an unmanned station, it would automatically go through to where it was being manned. This is what went on in my area in the 80's where someone would call what was their local station and find themselves receiving an answer out of area/locality.
I guess every area has it's own system.
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There was always a main exchange regardless of which number you called. Ours was 10 miles away even though the nearest station was only 1/2 a mile away. Calls are then received in cars in the hope that there's one in the area if it happens to be an emergency.
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I was not around in 1985. But why did police operators have a local telephone number if you are not supposed to call them?
You could call them for none emergency issues.
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There was always a main exchange regardless of which number you called. Ours was 10 miles away even though the nearest station was only 1/2 a mile away. Calls are then received in cars in the hope that there's one in the area if it happens to be an emergency.
The village, more so then, than now, was quite rural. I was still using the same method of contacting them by phone, in 1985, as I'd used in 1965. The nearest 24hr manned stations were in towns 5 miles in one direction and 9 miles in the other.
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For people who believe Bamber is guilty. Please give me a time estimate of when you roughly think he killed Shelia and did the staging....
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Bare in mind he makes the phonecall to west at 3.26am from head street
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For people who believe Bamber is guilty. Please give me a time estimate of when you roughly think he killed Shelia and did the staging....
He was cleaning himself up for those 26 missing minutes, so working backwards the bicycle ride could be done in as few as six minutes. https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/bicycle
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He was cleaning himself up for those 26 missing minutes, so working backwards the bicycle ride could be done in as few as six minutes. https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/bicycle
no that's not what I asked. What time do you think Jeremy roughly killed Shelia ( the two shot suicide scenario) at whf on August 7th 1985....
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no that's not what I asked. What time do you think Jeremy roughly killed Shelia ( the two shot suicide scenario) at whf on August 7th 1985....
Well I'm saying you have to work back. He probably killed her around 2:30am, telephoned his answerphone from White House Farm, cycled back to Bourtree Cottage, cleaned up for 26 minutes then telephoned Julie around 3:10am.
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Well I'm saying you have to work back. He probably killed her around 2:30am, telephoned his answerphone from White House Farm, cycled back to Bourtree Cottage, cleaned up for 26 minutes then telephoned Julie around 3:10am.
what do you think he did to clean up, in his relatively short window
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what do you think he did to clean up, in his relatively short window
Steve what time did Jeremy claim his father called him 3.10?
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Steve what time did Jeremy claim his father called him 3.10?
He said around 03:10
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what do you think he did to clean up, in his relatively short window
He propped the bike up in the yard, retrieved the tape in his answerphone, undressed and showered, dried his hair, washed all the clothes he had worn for the murders, put on fresh clothing (and overdid it), telephoned Julie then police.
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what do you think he did to clean up, in his relatively short window
We don't know what time they died so have have no idea how long or short the window was.
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He said around 03:10
so how is he both on the phone to Julie,and nevill on a standard landline in august 1985 at 3.10??
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We don't know what time they died so have have no idea how long or short the window was.
did the pathologist reckon an estimate ?
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so how is he both on the phone to Julie,and nevill on a standard landline in august 1985 at 3.10??
Well he isn't - because if you believe he's guilty, there was no call from Nevill.
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I am aware the farmhouse wasn't entered until hours later
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Well he isn't - because if you believe he's guilty, there was no call from Nevill.
on the flip side if Jeremy has been believed to have planned this to a vital tee. Why would he serve himself up this way. By giving times that could be contradicted that he wasn't on phone to one person at any given time?
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did the pathologist reckon an estimate ?
No, by the time he saw the bodies, they had been dead for some time and he said TOD is difficult to estimate. Dr craig who pronounced death just said they had been dead for 'some hours'.
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He propped the bike up in the yard, retrieved the tape in his answerphone, undressed and showered, dried his hair, washed all the clothes he had worn for the murders, put on fresh clothing (and overdid it), telephoned Julie then police.
what's he do with the bloody clothes, bare in mind he was soon about to be in the vicinity of dectectives later in the day,at his home address, did he stash them in a wardrobe, or did he hold a bonfire that very night??
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on the flip side if Jeremy has been believed to have planned this to a vital tee. Why would he serve himself up this way. By giving times that could be contradicted that he wasn't on phone to one person at any given time?
He covered himself by saying 'around' and 'about'. However, I don't think he ever expected to have to answer such questions. This is how killers are caught out. They make mistakes.
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I am aware the farmhouse wasn't entered until hours later
How was it entered given that there was fresh paint outside ?
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He covered himself by saying 'around' and 'about'. However, I don't think he ever expected to have to answer such questions. This is how killers are caught out. They make mistakes.
I agree Caroline, but I don't believe Bamber would be stupid enough to inform Julie mugford of his intentions as I mentioned last night, he would be imprisoned by the fact if he stepped a foot wrong she would fuck him over. I believe if we are to believe Jeremy Bamber is the evil callous killer, he wouldn't have told a soul about his intentions, he would not want to risk it
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I agree Caroline, but I don't believe Bamber would be stupid enough to inform Julie mugford of his intentions as I mentioned last night, he would be imprisoned by the fact if he stepped a foot wrong she would fuck him over. I believe if we are to believe Jeremy Bamber is the evil callous killer, he wouldn't have told a soul about his intentions, he would not want to risk it
If that's what you believe, it's what you believe. Personally, I think he did tell her, partly for someone to share it with and partly because he'd said stuff to her in the past and she would have guessed anyway.
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If that's what you believe, it's what you believe. Personally, I think he did tell her, partly for someone to share it with and partly because he'd said stuff to her in the past and she would have guessed anyway.
i understand you have had contact with Jeremy , is that over the phone or have you been to full sutton?
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i understand you have had contact with Jeremy , is that over the phone or have you been to full sutton?
None of the above - just letters.
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None of the above - just letters.
so contact then...
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so contact then...
I used to write to him when I thought he was innocent. Just asked him stuff about the case and gave him my opinion on various issues.
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I used to write to him when I thought he was innocent. Just asked him stuff about the case and gave him my opinion on various issues.
ok
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what's he do with the bloody clothes, bare in mind he was soon about to be in the vicinity of dectectives later in the day,at his home address, did he stash them in a wardrobe, or did he hold a bonfire that very night??
He hung a couple of items up in the wardrobe with blood flecks on them, but by the time he was considered a suspect John Hayward couldn't get a result from them.
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He hung a couple of items up in the wardrobe with blood flecks on them, but by the time he was considered a suspect John Hayward couldn't get a result from them.
To be fair, those items may not have been anything to do with the murders.
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He hung a couple of items up in the wardrobe with blood flecks on them, but by the time he was considered a suspect John Hayward couldn't get a result from them.
he if believe to be guilty. Had been involved in a massacre of five people. Including a heavily bloody fight with his father. I submit it would have been more than just mete blood flecks. So having said this, there are only three possible scenarios, disposal at White House farm ( ie bonfire,) drive off in the Astra somewhere to dump the evidence, or he conceals them at head street goldhanger, I'm not drawn towards the latter as I believe he wouldn't want to bring anything too close to home
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he if believe to be guilty. Had been involved in a massacre of five people. Including a heavily bloody fight with his father. I submit it would have been more than just mete blood flecks. So having said this, there are only three possible scenarios, disposal at White House farm ( ie bonfire,) drive off in the Astra somewhere to dump the evidence, or he conceals them at head street goldhanger, I'm not drawn towards the latter as I believe he wouldn't want to bring anything too close to home
this is why it is such a shame the deaths could never have been predicted as in so for what time they occured. If they had, a lot of cul de sacs on one side or the other could be created
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he if believe to be guilty. Had been involved in a massacre of five people. Including a heavily bloody fight with his father. I submit it would have been more than just mete blood flecks. So having said this, there are only three possible scenarios, disposal at White House farm ( ie bonfire,) drive off in the Astra somewhere to dump the evidence, or he conceals them at head street goldhanger, I'm not drawn towards the latter as I believe he wouldn't want to bring anything too close to home
Or stick em in the washing machine before heading off to WHF to meet the police.