Jeremy Bamber Forum
OFF TOPIC => General => Topic started by: Steve_uk on August 09, 2018, 10:13:AM
-
Whilst reading the case today I felt desperately sad that no individual could reach this poor young woman, engulfed in an overwhelming sense of her own inadequacy for several years, the medical profession finally acceding to her wish that she be allowed to die, clutching her precious cuddly toy whilst listening to a selection of her favourite songs. I have to wonder whether this is the best the doctors can do, planning the mechanics of her funeral rather than striving to attain the highest of expectations embodied in the Hippocratic Oath, her wish to die just one of the symptoms the doctors should have treated or is this a unique case where all options save assisted suicide have been carefully considered and rejected? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45117163
-
Isn't this shocking ? Like most who are in the throes of a depressive mental health issue their one and only " wish " is to die. The truth is that it's a cry for help. How sad that nobody appears qualified to deal with such problems other than to either dish out a chemical cosh or inhumanely practice this route.
-
Isn't this shocking ? Like most who are in the throes of a depressive mental health issue their one and only " wish " is to die. The truth is that it's a cry for help. How sad that nobody appears qualified to deal with such problems other than to either dish out a chemical cosh or inhumanely practice this route.
I can't believe that they are equating mental illness with a physical infirmity such as terminal cancer. The doctors are paid to make people well, not arrange their funeral. It reminds me of the Dignitas clinic in Switzerland where hundreds of people's ashes were dumped unceremoniously into Lake Zurich.
The young woman needed help, not encouragement to die. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/switzerland/7641989/300-urns-with-human-ashes-dumped-in-Lake-Zurich-near-Dignitas-clinic.html
-
Without signing up for any euthanasia programme we do have such a thing as an " agreement " in this country and probably many others which applies to those sufferers of advanced and terminal illnesses.The agreement falls to close relatives of the person suffering to increase painkilling medicine which a GP knows would end the life of a sufferer in preference to seeing someone writhing in pain and agony which a disease such as cancer causes toward the end of life.
To euthanise someone so young as in the clip is nothing short of manslaughter. It's frightening.
A friend of mine has signed up to Dignitas and I've worried about it ever since she told me. I don't agree with it.
-
No because it's not treating the symptoms of the illness. Look at this case: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/man-holland-netherlands-dutch-euthanised-alcohol-addiction-alcoholic-netherlands-a7446256.html
How can you possibly be surrounded by "family and friends" if they're going to watch you die?
Can you guess how many people this affects in one year? https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/dutch-euthanasia-mental-paitients-euthanized/
-
Without signing up for any euthanasia programme we do have such a thing as an " agreement " in this country and probably many others which applies to those sufferers of advanced and terminal illnesses.The agreement falls to close relatives of the person suffering to increase painkilling medicine which a GP knows would end the life of a sufferer in preference to seeing someone writhing in pain and agony which a disease such as cancer causes toward the end of life.
To euthanise someone so young as in the clip is nothing short of manslaughter. It's frightening.
A friend of mine has signed up to Dignitas and I've worried about it ever since she told me. I don't agree with it.
One of the first things that's drummed into would be Samaritans is that what WE think is right -as in being right for us- isn't necessarily the right thing for someone else. We were also told, emphatically, that no one can put right everyone else's problems.
It a huge tragedy that there appeared to be no more that could be done to make such a young woman's life bearable and enjoyable. I can only imagine how she must have suffered whilst a solution -believed to be right for her- was being looked for. I can only begin to imagine the terrible sense of failure experienced by all who cared for her, both professionals and family when they couldn't. I believe I may JUST begin to imagine her relief when she knew that the end to the awfulness that her life had become was drawing to a close. It may well have been the first time she felt she had some control.
-
There's no way that I can agree to this at all and the more I read about it the more I'm appalled by the coldness and disbelief of it all. How can anyone grieve under such circumstances ? When you lose a loved one through the processes of illness you " sort of " prepare yourself for the end and accept the decision that no more can be done but this cruel way you'd never know and therefore it would forever be a cloud over their judgement. I couldn't cope with it.
-
This is very sad and after having a family member commit suicide, I don't think I could live with helping them do this.
No neither could I Caroline. Maybe we don't know enough about the circumstances of this particular case and how the illness was triggered at the age of 12. I can't help thinking though that it should never have come to this and I do question what therapy was given if the only way out for this young woman was to curl up and die at age 29 with the assistance of others.
-
So the man is an alcoholic: then let him drink himself to death if he must. The woman has had multiple suicide attempts, the classic cry for help. Could she really not finish the job if she wanted to (I won't mention all the ways but you could throw yourself off the top of a block of flats to make sure) but at least you could argue that nobody else was complicit. I wouldn't want her to do that because all these efforts at ending one's life are symptoms of the illness, which should have been treated by the medical profession.
-
This is very sad and after having a family member commit suicide, I don't think I could live with helping them do this.
There's no way that I can agree to this at all and the more I read about it the more I'm appalled by the coldness and disbelief of it all. How can anyone grieve under such circumstances ? When you lose a loved one through the processes of illness you " sort of " prepare yourself for the end and accept the decision that no more can be done but this cruel way you'd never know and therefore it would forever be a cloud over their judgement. I couldn't cope with it.
Caroline, I can understand that, having been up close and personal to it, helping out/giving permission is too awful to contemplate.
Lookout, this isn't about how those left behind, grieve, although I accept they need to. Would you rather a loved one lived in unending mental/physical agony because it made you feel better, rather than giving them your blessing/acquiescence? No one is saying we have to like doing it. It's just possible that, if someone knows they've been given a choice, they MAY decide to have another go at living. It's neither here nor there, because it's not about me. It's about what someone else feels is right for them. I wonder if I'd feel better, having given -if not my blessing- acquiescence, as opposed to feeling guilt for them living when they'd rather not, and hoping it would all be okay for them somewhere down the line.
-
I agree Steve.
-
Caroline, I can understand that, having been up close and personal to it, helping out/giving permission is too awful to contemplate.
Lookout, this isn't about how those left behind, grieve, although I accept they need to. Would you rather a loved one lived in unending mental/physical agony because it made you feel better, rather than giving them your blessing/acquiescence? No one is saying we have to like doing it. It's just possible that, if someone knows they've been given a choice, they MAY decide to have another go at living. It's neither here nor there, because it's not about me. It's about what someone else feels is right for them. I wonder if I'd feel better, having given -if not my blessing- acquiescence, as opposed to feeling guilt for them living when they'd rather not, and hoping it would all be okay for them somewhere down the line.
But the debate should not have arrived at that point Jane because the root causes of the person's death wish should have been addressed years ago.
-
Caroline, I can understand that, having been up close and personal to it, helping out/giving permission is too awful to contemplate.
Lookout, this isn't about how those left behind, grieve, although I accept they need to. Would you rather a loved one lived in unending mental/physical agony because it made you feel better, rather than giving them your blessing/acquiescence? No one is saying we have to like doing it. It's just possible that, if someone knows they've been given a choice, they MAY decide to have another go at living. It's neither here nor there, because it's not about me. It's about what someone else feels is right for them. I wonder if I'd feel better, having given -if not my blessing- acquiescence, as opposed to feeling guilt for them living when they'd rather not, and hoping it would all be okay for them somewhere down the line.
How on earth could/would I " feel better " about someone living with mental illness ? This is about all I expect from someone like you !! How can you talk like that ?
We as a family are presently living with a child who has some form of mental illness and to read something like euthanasia is highly upsetting in a 29 year old let alone what a 10 year old is going through and whose future is uncertain !
-
No neither could I Caroline. Maybe we don't know enough about the circumstances of this particular case and how the illness was triggered at the age of 12. I can't help thinking though that it should never have come to this and I do question what therapy was given if the only way out for this young woman was to curl up and die at age 29 with the assistance of others.
Steve, I'm not talking about the past and what could have, might have, should have been done for that person. I'm talking about the immediacy. The here and now. Where NOTHING has worked. Where every POSSIBLE avenue has been explored, and all that's left is the possibility that things MIGHT improve somewhere in the future. If you were such a person's friend or relative, how long to you think you could go one watching their interminable suffering before you found yourself wanting them to be free of it, permanently?
-
Steve, I'm not talking about the past and what could have, might have, should have been done for that person. I'm talking about the immediacy. The here and now. Where NOTHING has worked. Where every POSSIBLE avenue has been explored, and all that's left is the possibility that things MIGHT improve somewhere in the future. If you were such a person's friend or relative, how long to you think you could go one watching their interminable suffering before you found yourself wanting them to be free of it, permanently?
I've read about all the abortive attempts to cure her (if that's the right word) but one picture summed it up for me: the young woman clutching her pink cuddly toy, suggesting that she still had love to give and was capable of feeling it, even if it were only directed at an inanimate object. The problem lay in her distrust of humans, so much so that she wished to detach herself permanently from them. I have to ask myself if this is the case why that human contact had failed and why better efforts could not be made by them to ameliorate the condition of someone they purport to love.
-
I can't help thinking that because she had spent time in the penal system this might have been seen by politicians in league with accountants as a way to cut public spending instead of a real effort to make her well.
-
I've read about all the abortive attempts to cure her (if that's the right word) but one picture summed it up for me: the young woman clutching her pink cuddly toy, suggesting that she still had love to give and was capable of feeling it, even if it were only directed at an inanimate object. The problem lay in her distrust of humans, so much so that she wished to detach herself permanently from them. I have to ask myself if this is the case why that human contact had failed and why better efforts could not be made by them to ameliorate the condition of someone they purport to love.
Steve, I DO hear hat you say. I, too, have a sense of frustration, anger, helplessness. How CAN this have happened? MAYBE the psychotherapy didn't dig deeply enough. MAYBE she was resistant to it. MAYBE she refused certain drugs/therapies. I can't help but feel, that as an adult, she wasn't allowed to have some responsibility in the treatment she received. It sounds very much to me as if she'd had all she wanted and couldn't take any more. MAYBE that teddybear reminded her of a time when she felt safe and difficult decisions weren't required of her.
-
Steve, I DO hear hat you say. I, too, have a sense of frustration, anger, helplessness. How CAN this have happened? MAYBE the psychotherapy didn't dig deeply enough. MAYBE she was resistant to it. MAYBE she refused certain drugs/therapies. I can't help but feel, that as an adult, she wasn't allowed to have some responsibility in the treatment she received. It sounds very much to me as if she'd had all she wanted and couldn't take any more. MAYBE that teddybear reminded her of a time when she felt safe and difficult decisions weren't required of her.
..and as you say gaining control over her fate by following legal procedures for a number of years until she arrived at that point. The problem I have is why she has put the onus, the responsibility and burden of killing her onto others.
-
..and as you say gaining control over her fate by following legal procedures for a number of years until she arrived at that point. The problem I have is why she has put the onus, the responsibility and burden of killing her onto others.
I can't help thinking that because she had spent time in the penal system this might have been seen by politicians in league with accountants as a way to cut public spending instead of a real effort to accommodate her wish.
I think the Dutch have a very different way of seeing things than do we. The Dutch have legal euthanasia, which is something I'd certainly opt for if I had the choice. The most I could do now is sign a DNR, however, a 90+ year old of my acquaintance who is completely bed bound was indignant when asked!!! So why would she put responsibility for her death in the hands of others? Presumably, for no deeper reason than because that's the way it's done in Holland and there are those whose job it is to administer their client/patient's wishes.
-
Can anybody understand this woman's condition? I thought voices in one's head could be controlled by medication, or is there still a gap in psychiatric medicine or are these voices merely a reflection of one's inner self? https://www.dailywire.com/news/26461/netherlands-doctors-approve-euthanizing-29-year-hank-berrien
-
A person who is normal and healthy can hear voices in their head. It's not only those who are diagnosed with illness. When I say normal and healthy I mean those who've suffered some form of trauma can hallucinate------it's to do with shock.
Sometimes it's whatever drugs a patient takes which can cause voices and hallucinations. It's trial and error because when those drugs are stopped, so do the voices.
-
Can anybody understand this woman's condition? I thought voices in one's head could be controlled by medication, or is there still a gap in psychiatric medicine or are these voices merely a refelection of one's inner self? https://www.dailywire.com/news/26461/netherlands-doctors-approve-euthanizing-29-year-hank-berrien
Chlorpromazine which Sheila should have taken but didn't is an antipsychotic and would have quelled the voices in her head.
-
Reading this actually made me cry, not least because my son has suffered from almost the same symptoms as she had from age 13 to 18 that he is now, believe me there is always hope and there are many ways of helping , a combination of medication, therapy , love and support . We should never give up on people who have mental illness ! shame on these so called "doctors" !
-
Can anybody understand this woman's condition? I thought voices in one's head could be controlled by medication, or is there still a gap in psychiatric medicine or are these voices merely a reflection of one's inner self? https://www.dailywire.com/news/26461/netherlands-doctors-approve-euthanizing-29-year-hank-berrien
there are a number of anti psychotic medications that are now available , so if one didn't work they could have tried others, in combination with psychotherapy would have been her best chance
-
It has made me think about all categories of people who have been euthanized by the Dutch and Belgian governments and reconsider my attitude about Ashley Smith, a thread which nugnug started and for whom there should have been proper help.
-
Reading this actually made me cry, not least because my son has suffered from almost the same symptoms as she had from age 13 to 18 that he is now, believe me there is always hope and there are many ways of helping , a combination of medication, therapy , love and support . We should never give up on people who have mental illness ! shame on these so called "doctors" !
It certainly sounds inhumane however, tragically many people choose to end their own lives every day. Some succeed and some fail, those who fail and are determined keep trying until they succeed. I don't feel I have a right to judge.
-
It certainly sounds inhumane however, tragically many people choose to end their own lives every day. Some succeed and some fail, those who fail and are determined keep trying until they succeed. I don't feel I have a right to judge.
I feel I have the right to judge someone who assists them i.e a doctor who is enabled by the legal system to carry out this shocking act ! imo it is inhumane
-
It certainly sounds inhumane however, tragically many people choose to end their own lives every day. Some succeed and some fail, those who fail and are determined keep trying until they succeed. I don't feel I have a right to judge.
But aren't we all tarnished in some way by being complicit in this legalized killing? Why does the individual concerned wish for an audience or at least another medical professional to perform the procedure for them?
-
But aren't we all tarnished in some way by being complicit in this legalized killing? Why does the individual concerned wish for an audience or at least another medical professional to perform the procedure for them?
imo the person is ill and lacking in the necessary insight to make the decision.
-
It has made me think about all categories of people who have been euthanized by the Dutch and Belgian governments and reconsider my attitude about Ashley Smith, a thread which nugnug started and for whom there should have been proper help.
I've just googled that, horrendous case!
-
But aren't we all tarnished in some way by being complicit in this legalized killing? Why does the individual concerned wish for an audience or at least another medical professional to perform the procedure for them?
I don't know Steve. It is certainly tragic for all concerned. I certainly don't know enough about the case to have any right to comment. I used to be completely against assisted suicide however latterly my view has begun to change. The idea of a 29 year old being assisted to die sounds abhorrent to us but we are not in her or her family's shoes . May she RIP.
-
imo the person is ill and lacking in the necessary insight to make the decision.
The alternative would be that she found a way to kill herself, she was obviously determined to do so. I am not denying it brings up all kinds of emotions individually and collectively but that is about our perceptions not about her pesonal tragic illness and suffering.
-
You see once you accept the principle of legalized killing it's hardly a surprise that it opens the floodgates to all kinds of controversial cases: https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2017/01/doctor-reprimanded-for-overstepping-mark-during-euthanasia-on-dementia-patient/
-
You see once you accept the principle of legalized killing it's hardly a surprise that it opens the floodgates to all kinds of controversial cases: https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2017/01/doctor-reprimanded-for-overstepping-mark-during-euthanasia-on-dementia-patient/
It's true it does which is one reason why I was against it. It's a very difficult question and there should be more safeguards and protection in place. I have many reservations but at the same time if a person is suffering without hope and wishes to end their suffering what right do I have to stop them?
-
It's true it does which is one reason why I was against it. It's a very difficult question and there should be more safeguards and protection in place. I have many reservations but at the same time if a person is suffering without hope and wishes to end their suffering what right do I have to stop them?
then that would be their choice , but enabling them to do it is something else entirely
-
I'd rather not think about it.
-
then that would be their choice , but enabling them to do it is something else entirely
I do accept your argent however I don't know the history or circumstances of the case so it's difficult to foem an opinion. If assisted suicide is acceptable for physically debilitating terminal diseases should we not look at mental illness in the same way?
I would guess her illness was untreatable and this young woman could not be helped.
I don't believe this was a sudden decision, why should she be abandoned and left to jump in front of a rain or die in any other lonely and dstressing way, surely beter to die surrounded by those who loved her unconditionally.
-
I do accept your argent however I don't know the history or circumstances of the case so it's difficult to foem an opinion. If assisted suicide is acceptable for physically debilitating terminal diseases should we not look at mental illness in the same way?
I would guess her illness was untreatable and this young woman could not be helped.
I don't believe this was a sudden decision, why should she be abandoned and left to jump in front of a rain or die in any other lonely and dstressing way, surely beter to die surrounded by those who loved her unconditionally.
..because you would never know with a mental illness whether the death wish was just a symptom, and any relative who cared would fight tooth and nail to keep the chance of rehabilitation alive.
-
..because you would never know with a mental illness whether the death wish was just a symptom, and any relative who cared would fight tooth and nail to keep the chance of rehabilitation alive.
I don't disagree with you however it is really nother about the relative it is about respecting the suffering of the young woman. It very much depends on the case history and prognosis. I don't know how anyone can keep alive anyone who ants to die that much. It's a huge moral problem but the sufferer deserves respect. D'you think she should be locked up as well to stop her achieving her death or would you rather she died aldistressed and alone I don't know the anwer but as I said the sufferer's rights should be respected.
-
I don't disagree with you however it is really nother about the relative it is about respecting the suffering of the young woman. It very much depends on the case history and prognosis. I don't know how anyone can keep alive anyone who ants to die that much. It's a huge moral problem but the sufferer deserves respect. D'you think she should be locked up as well to stop her achieving her death or would you rather she died aldistressed and alone I don't know the anwer but as I said the sufferer's rights should be respected.
If she's hearing voices which tell her to kill herself and I were a relative then she should be locked up for her own good until she becomes stabilized. I don't know what percentage of individuals are like this but it seems an easy way out for the authorities to euthanize and I also suspect a public expenditure rather than a medical motive.
-
If she's hearing voices which tell her to kill herself and I were a relative then she should be locked up for her own good until she becomes stabilized. I don't know what percentage of individuals are like this but it seems an easy way out for the authorities to euthanize and I also suspect a public expenditure rather than a medical motive.
Do you know her history? I don't and my opinion is from a neutral position. I am not advocating euthanasia for anyone simply trying to look at the situation objectively. I am not comfortable with assisted suicide but am aware if I was in certain situations I may change my mind therefore I do not have the right to criticise someone choosing it IF there is no other relief from their suffering.
-
If she's hearing voices which tell her to kill herself and I were a relative then she should be locked up for her own good until she becomes stabilized. I don't know what percentage of individuals are like this but it seems an easy way out for the authorities to euthanize and I also suspect a public expenditure rather than a medical motive.
Once upon a time the " padded cell " would have been used on those patients who not only harmed others but were used for their own safety from damaging themselves as most hear commanding voices in their heads. This practice was used during the time when staff were otherwise too busy to deal with a one-to-one situation. Even those with suicidal thoughts were put into these cells in order for staff to administer medication and generally monitor them.
During psychotic attacks patients would bang their heads on the walls or throw themselves onto the floor so for their own safety in many ways patients were restrained in this way.
Restraining is no longer used though more favourable than euthanasia.
-
Once upon a time the " padded cell " would have been used on those patients who not only harmed others but were used for their own safety from damaging themselves as most hear commanding voices in their heads. This practice was used during the time when staff were otherwise too busy to deal with a one-to-one situation. Even those with suicidal thoughts were put into these cells in order for staff to administer medication and generally monitor them.
During psychotic attacks patients would bang their heads on the walls or throw themselves onto the floor so for their own safety in many ways patients were restrained in this way.
Restraining is no longer used though more favourable than euthanasia.
I am not in any way supporting euthanasia and I know a doctor's role is to save life. There is better medication these days which for most would bring some quality of life, however for the few people who cannot find any relief and are capable of making their own choice there may be an argument to allow them to die with dignity. The alternative to force a person to a life of appalling suffering or a lonely and miserable death may make society feel vindicated but is not necessarily more humane. Imo.
-
Time was when doctors, as a matter of course, carried with them, on their rounds, a phial containing morphine. To the best of my knowledge, it wasn't used indiscriminately, but to give release to those whose lives had become little more than a miserable existence. I wonder how many of those who denigrate people being given the choice of euthanasia would insist on living if their lives had become intolerable. Perhaps if the happy, healthy, and hopeful -who make rules for others- could begin to understand what it feels like to be in constant, unrelieved pain and devoid of hope, they might view it more compassionately.
-
Time was when doctors, as a matter of course, carried with them, on their rounds, a phial containing morphine. To the best of my knowledge, it wasn't used indiscriminately, but to give release to those whose lives had become little more than a miserable existence. I wonder how many of those who denigrate people being given the choice of euthanasia would insist on living if their lives had become intolerable. Perhaps if the happy, healthy, and hopeful -who make rules for others- could begin to understand what it feels like to be in constant, unrelieved pain and devoid of hope, they might view it more compassionately.
But there was nothing physically wrong with her Jane, she lived in a highly-developed country with a welfare state yet purported to suffer agonies from the age of twelve. How about transporting her to Africa to assist the aid workers for a week or see how they manage in Haiti? Shock therapy I know but wouldn't she stop feeling sorry for herself and count her blessings and wonder how she could make a contribution to others instead of expecting others to enact the death decision she made unilaterally?
-
I agree Steve, you're in the right direction of " shock therapy ".
-
[/b]
But there was nothing physically wrong with her Jane, she lived in a highly-developed country with a welfare state yet purported to suffer agonies from the age of twelve. How about transporting her to Africa to assist the aid workers for a week or see how they manage in Haiti? Shock therapy I know but wouldn't she stop feeling sorry for herself and count her blessings and wonder how she could make a contribution to others instead of expecting others to enact the death decision she made unilaterally?
Steve! Am I to believe that you're saying you think there was no more wrong with her than a massive case of the "Poor me's"? She had to have seen psychiatrists/psychologists/counselors..............didn't she? Did she fool/convince them all? They wouldn't have been allowed -whatever their private thoughts- to call her a liar. Personally, I don't believe she was lying simply because I can't see that there'd have been any pleasure in maintaining such a stance for all that time, HOWEVER, if it DID give her pleasure, surely that would be an indication that something was seriously not right?
-
Steve! Am I to believe that you're saying you think there was no more wrong with her than a massive case of the "Poor me's"? She had to have seen psychiatrists/psychologists/counselors..............didn't she? Did she fool/convince them all? They wouldn't have been allowed -whatever their private thoughts- to call her a liar. Personally, I don't believe she was lying simply because I can't see that there'd have been any pleasure in maintaining such a stance for all that time, HOWEVER, if it DID give her pleasure, surely that would be an indication that something was seriously not right?
I don't know because I'm not a psychiatrist. All I know is that at 12 years old her problems were ignored and spiralled out of control. Look at Nathon Brooks and Kipland Kinkel: similar causes I would bet yet they dealt with it differently, albeit in just as shocking a manner.
-
Do you have problems with pupils Steve ?
-
my view on this is that it is totally and utterly wrong and immoral to assist someone to take their own life , she was only 29 !!!! life is above all else to be protected ! it is an absolute tragedy that this woman was killed by her doctor who was supposed to help her, thank god we don't have laws in this country that would have allowed this "murder" for want of a better word. that poor woman!
-
my view on this is that it is totally and utterly wrong and immoral to assist someone to take their own life , she was only 29 !!!! life is above all else to be protected ! it is an absolute tragedy that this woman was killed by her doctor who was supposed to help her, thank god we don't have laws in this country that would have allowed this "murder" for want of a better word. that poor woman!
I hope you're one of those people for whom life is more generally good, than bad. I hope that, if there have been times when you've felt it to be a weight too great to bear, they've been fleeting. I hope you've never felt that no one would miss you or care if you died. I hope, if you've ever felt life to be intolerable, there's been a warm and loving hand for you to hold. I can't believe this girl has been cast aside, as being worthless, for more than half her life...................any more than I WANT to believe it MAY be beyond the skill of doctors to cure some patients as a prerequisite for it HAS to be the patient's own compliance in it. I've never seriously believed that death is better than living. SHOULD I arrive at such a decision, having given it enough chances to be better soon, I think I might welcome the chance to have a conversation about the possibility of making a dignified exit.
-
I agree Indigo. It wasn't the right thing to do at all. It's something you do to a distressed ailing animal not a human and a young one at that.
I watched a docu-film about Amy Winehouse and she ended up in a dreadful mess but the last thing I'd have done would have been to end it for her. I felt so sorry for such a talented jazz singer that nobody had appeared to help her in any way. So very sad that she died alone without the privilege of friends and family poor soul. Tragic.
-
Do you have problems with pupils Steve ?
I don't care anymore lookout because I'm thinking ahead to retirement. I've never had the severity of a Nathon Brooks or Kipland Kinkel to deal with. I feel we haven't got to the bottom of these problems, which start at an early age, fester and blow up to suicide or homicide in a tiny minority.
To get back to the subject of this thread I don't think euthanasia is ever justified.
-
I don't care anymore lookout because I'm thinking ahead to retirement. I've never had the severity of a Nathon Brooks or Kipland Kinkel to deal with. I feel we haven't got to the bottom of these problems, which start at an early age, fester and blow up to suicide or homicide in a tiny minority.
To get back to the subject of this thread I don't think euthanasia is ever justified.
Sorry for the loaded question Steve. Good to learn you'll be out of it soon enough and able to LIVE !
-
I don't care anymore lookout because I'm thinking ahead to retirement. I've never had the severity of a Nathon Brooks or Kipland Kinkel to deal with. I feel we haven't got to the bottom of these problems, which start at an early age, fester and blow up to suicide or homicide in a tiny minority.
To get back to the subject of this thread I don't think euthanasia is ever justified.
Steve, I'm surprised. NOT at your belief, but, at what sounds like your readiness to deny others access to what may be right for them. I don't believe in abortion, but I'd never deny women the right to it.
-
Steve, I'm surprised. NOT at your belief, but, at what sounds like your readiness to deny others access to what may be right for them. I don't believe in abortion, but I'd never deny women the right to it.
I still don't think we know enough about this case, or didn't because the poor woman is now dead. I believe she had a father who was desperately sad about her decision, but nothing further was reported. Where was her mother, where were her friends and what did they advise? How did she end up in prison ( parallels with Ashley Smith), what medication was she prescribed and how did she react to it?
In some respects we're all just guessing here.
-
my view on this is that it is totally and utterly wrong and immoral to assist someone to take their own life , she was only 29 !!!! life is above all else to be protected ! it is an absolute tragedy that this woman was killed by her doctor who was supposed to help her, thank god we don't have laws in this country that would have allowed this "murder" for want of a better word. that poor woman!
If she had motor neurons disease or something similar, would it still be wrong? We don't knows how much she was suffering. However we all have the right to our own opinions and beliefs.
-
If she had motor neurons disease or something similar, would it still be wrong? We don't knows how much she was suffering. However we all have the right to our own opinions and beliefs.
It makes you wonder what we'd have done for her in this country.
-
I still don't think we know enough about this case, or didn't because the poor woman is now dead. I believe she had a father who was desperately sad about her decision, but nothing further was reported. Where was her mother, where were her friends and what did they advise? How did she end up in prison ( parallels with Ashley Smith), what medication was she prescribed and how did she react to it?
In some respects we're all just guessing here.
/quote]
Steve, you're correct. We are just guessing. Also, SOME of us appear to hold the view that because THEY don't agree with it, no one else should be allowed the choice. It would be good if they could apply the first rule of counselling here ie to walk a mile in the other person's shoes so they can experience how that person feels.
You ask where was this tragic girl's mother? From the sounds of it -and again, I'm guessing- there may NOT have been a happy family unit. One would wish to know how this may have contributed to her decision. I feel certain that any parent would feel sad that their child made such a decision for themselves -surely they would wonder about their own part in it being reached?- but the ultimate decision, about whether the adult child chooses life or death, is not theirs to make.
As a friend of -TO?- a would-be suicide? I can only say I felt a complete failure for not being able to make his life such that all thoughts of suicide left him, relief that there would be no more small hour telephone calls which lasted for hours, and guilt for my own part in spending so much time persuading him that living was better than dying. I'd probably made it about me. I had no idea what it felt like to be 40, home repossessed, everything I owned in a black dustbin bag, and a craving for alcohol the moment I opened my eyes. I certainly didn't have the right to impose my values on him.
-
If she had motor neurons disease or something similar, would it still be wrong? We don't knows how much she was suffering. However we all have the right to our own opinions and beliefs.
yes it would be wrong !! look at what Stephen Hawkins achieved in his life!
-
It makes you wonder what we'd have done for her in this country.
well for a start off we wouldn't have enabled a doctor to hand her the poison!
-
well for a start off we wouldn't have enabled a doctor to hand her the poison!
That's exactly what I meant !
-
yes it would be wrong !! look at what Stephen Hawkins achieved in his life!
I believe Stephen Hawkins wanted to live. We're not discussing those who want to live.
-
The thing is, can those who have mental health issues really make such decisions ? Are they in the right frame of mind to do so ?
-
The thing is, can those who have mental health issues really make such decisions ? Are they in the right frame of mind to do so ?
Depends on where you put the boundaries. If one is ill enough to be under section, I suppose legally, one would be deemed not to be capable.
-
The thing is, can those who have mental health issues really make such decisions ? Are they in the right frame of mind to do so ?
That is a difficult question and would think it depends on the nature of the illness. On the other hand anyone totally debilitated with a wasting disease is bound to have mental health illness due to the stress of their disease. Where is the line drawn? If assisted suicide is legal and acceptable is there a difference? I don't know the answer however if I found myself in such a situation and wanted it why should I deny it to others who are suffering at least as much and want it? It's a massive question.
-
yes it would be wrong !! look at what Stephen Hawkins achieved in his life!
Stephen Hawking had a strain of motor neurone disease which was bery slow to develop. He also was able to cope with his illness in a way that some cannot. He was particularly cerebral which possibly helped him and was also privileged with work wide connections. Others find being paralysed and trapped demoralising and humiliating ando unbearable
with no dignity and nothing to live for. Maybe this young woman had similar tortures.
-
Stephen Hawking had a strain of motor neurone disease which was bery slow to develop. He also was able to cope with his illness in a way that some cannot. He was particularly cerebral which possibly helped him and was also privileged with work wide connections. Others find being paralysed and trapped demoralising and humiliating ando unbearable
with no dignity and nothing to live for. Maybe this young woman had similar tortures.
But motor neurone disease is a physical infirmity. There was nothing physically wrong with Aureilia Brouwers but she became enshrouded in a deep melancholy from which extrication proved beyond the mental health professionals. No love for another, no concern for fellow humankind, no wish to marry, have children, improve herself educationally, no favourite food or walk? Was the arson attack a cry for help, was she resolved to kill herself from aged twelve?
I can't believe it..
-
this story really makes you think! death is so final , never forget that ....
https://uk.yahoo.com/style/woman-shot-herself-face-given-second-chance-face-044400450.html?guccounter=1
-
These victims are all beautiful girls ?
-
But motor neurone disease is a physical infirmity. There was nothing physically wrong with Aureilia Brouwers but she became enshrouded in a deep melancholy from which extrication proved beyond the mental health professionals. No love for another, no concern for fellow humankind, no wish to marry, have children, improve herself educationally, no favourite food or walk? Was the arson attack a cry for help, was she resolved to kill herself from aged twelve?
I can't believe it..
Highly debilitating physical disease can cause huge psychological stress. My aregiment is that incurable mental health can be as traumatic as similar physical affliction. Some do not agree with EVER allowing anyone to have an assisted death which is fine if that is their sincere belief. My thinking is that incurable severe mental illness can be at least as horrendous for the sufferer who deserves the same respect as anyone suffering a physicall disease therefore if assisted dying is legal and strictly controlled what is the difference? I am not even sure if I believe in it but do believe severe mental illness can be as bad as the worst physical illness although it is often not accepted to be so which is why it's so often dismissed or misunderstood.
-
But motor neurone disease is a physical infirmity. There was nothing physically wrong with Aureilia Brouwers but she became enshrouded in a deep melancholy from which extrication proved beyond the mental health professionals. No love for another, no concern for fellow humankind, no wish to marry, have children, improve herself educationally, no favourite food or walk? Was the arson attack a cry for help, was she resolved to kill herself from aged twelve?
I can't believe it..
Steve, perhaps if you'd experienced what she had, you might believe it. I can only hope you never get to know how she felt.
-
Are mental illnesses incurable and lifelong?
No. When treated appropriately and early, many people recover fully and have no further episodes of illness.
For others, mental illness may recur throughout their lives and require ongoing treatment. This is the same as many physical illnesses, such as diabetes and heart disease. Like these other long-term health conditions, mental illness can be managed so that individuals live life to the fullest.
Although some people become disabled as a result of ongoing mental illness, many who experience even very major episodes of illness live full and productive lives.
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/publications/publishing.nsf/Content/mental-pubs-w-whatmen-toc~mental-pubs-w-whatmen-myth
you are talking like mental illness is incurable , it isn't.
-
Are mental illnesses incurable and lifelong?
No. When treated appropriately and early, many people recover fully and have no further episodes of illness.
For others, mental illness may recur throughout their lives and require ongoing treatment. This is the same as many physical illnesses, such as diabetes and heart disease. Like these other long-term health conditions, mental illness can be managed so that individuals live life to the fullest.
Although some people become disabled as a result of ongoing mental illness, many who experience even very major episodes of illness live full and productive lives.
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/publications/publishing.nsf/Content/mental-pubs-w-whatmen-toc~mental-pubs-w-whatmen-myth
you are talking like mental illness is incurable , it isn't.
But SOME don't. It's those for whom the possibility of assisted suicide MAY be the crutch that keeps them going.
I believe you've stated categorically that you don't hold with assisted suicide being allowed. I get that it's not something you'd want for yourself -although I WOULD ask if you've ever been in a place SO dark and for SO long that you may have wished for a way out- and even if it was legalized, it's not something which would be forced on you. WHY then, would you wish to force others to live, if, for them, living had become intolerable?
This isn't about "one size fits all". Each case is individual. It's not about "if I can put up with it why can't they". What it IS about is the need to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before we pontificate on how they should/shouldn't -my two least favourite words- live lives we have no understanding of.
-
But SOME don't. It's those for whom the possibility of assisted suicide MAY be the crutch that keeps them going.
I believe you've stated categorically that you don't hold with assisted suicide being allowed. I get that it's not something you'd want for yourself -although I WOULD ask if you've ever been in a place SO dark and for SO long that you may have wished for a way out- and even if it was legalized, it's not something which would be forced on you. WHY then, would you wish to force others to live, if, for them, living had become intolerable?
This isn't about "one size fits all". Each case is individual. It's not about "if I can put up with it why can't they". What it IS about is the need to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before we pontificate on how they should/shouldn't -my two least favourite words- live lives we have no understanding of.
Are you saying that Aurelia Brouwers had an illness which is yet to be diagnosed by the medical profession? Why was she allowed to vegetate for so long and why does an otherwise physically fit individual expect someone else to carry out her death wish for her?
-
It just disgusts me that the young woman wasn't even terminally ill. I'm sure there'd be an outcry if that happened in this country that all those who have mental health issues were allowed to die ? No chance !!
We are STILL the best health system which strives to give patients the right to life.
-
What I also find disgusting and frightening is the way the media/celebrities DICTATE how the young should look regarding their weight/fashion/diet etc etc. This must damage the mental health of many youngsters.
This is cruel and very damaging and probably one of the biggest causes of depression among lots of people.
-
Are you saying that Aurelia Brouwers had an illness which is yet to be diagnosed by the medical profession? Why was she allowed to vegetate for so long and why does an otherwise physically fit individual expect someone else to carry out her death wish for her?
You're asking questions which, without having access to her history, it's impossible to answer. However, I imagine those who set up web sites, which encourage others to commit suicide, probably have personality disorders, and so, too, MAY have those who respond to them. As we ALL know, personality disorders are NOT, in themselves, mental illnesses, and being "an otherwise physically fit individual" has no bearing on it.
-
It just disgusts me that the young woman wasn't even terminally ill. I'm sure there'd be an outcry if that happened in this country that all those who have mental health issues were allowed to die ? No chance !!
We are STILL the best health system which strives to give patients the right to life.
Which I support wholeheartedly..................PROVIDING the patient isn't having life forced on them when they feel it's not in their best interests.
-
What I also find disgusting and frightening is the way the media/celebrities DICTATE how the young should look regarding their weight/fashion/diet etc etc. This must damage the mental health of many youngsters.
This is cruel and very damaging and probably one of the biggest causes of depression among lots of people.
On this very rare occasion, I agree with you 100%. It MAY be true that low self esteem, caused by media/peer group pressure is responsible -more than any other variable- for self inflicted injuries and suicides in a particular age group.
-
Which I support wholeheartedly..................PROVIDING the patient isn't having life forced on them when they feel it's not in their best interests.
Patients in hospital who are terminally ill are at liberty to ask for strong painkillers toward the end of their lives for which they or family sign for, namely diamorphine and/or fentanyl both used for chronic cancer pain. Both drugs give relief and comfort to the sufferers and also assist in a deep sleep before death. This is right for a physical illness but I would never ever consider ending the life of a physically healthy person no matter how their mental health appeared.
-
But SOME don't. It's those for whom the possibility of assisted suicide MAY be the crutch that keeps them going.
I believe you've stated categorically that you don't hold with assisted suicide being allowed. I get that it's not something you'd want for yourself -although I WOULD ask if you've ever been in a place SO dark and for SO long that you may have wished for a way out- and even if it was legalized, it's not something which would be forced on you. WHY then, would you wish to force others to live, if, for them, living had become intolerable?
This isn't about "one size fits all". Each case is individual. It's not about "if I can put up with it why can't they". What it IS about is the need to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before we pontificate on how they should/shouldn't -my two least favourite words- live lives we have no understanding of.
I dont agree with assisted suicide for me or anyone else. The fact is mental illness is not incurable it can be treated , I don't believe we should give up on anyone , life is precious ! There are far worse symptoms of mental illness than this woman was displaying, I have seen people with depression who are in a catatonic state , that is as low as you can go and I have seen them recover from that , you are saying we should be dispensing with them when they decide they have had enough but the reality is that they could make a recovery , no way should we assist them to end their life when they are mentally unwell and lacking the insight into the situation , we should be protecting them ! As a society we should be looking to improve suicide rates not increase them!
don't presuppose that I haven't been in a dark place myself, but what that has to do with i do not know , i would think anyone who has been in a dark place and is here to tell the tale would be totally against assisted suicide .
-
It just disgusts me that the young woman wasn't even terminally ill. I'm sure there'd be an outcry if that happened in this country that all those who have mental health issues were allowed to die ? No chance !!
We are STILL the best health system which strives to give patients the right to life.
It's the start of a slippery slope ! I hope to God we never have that law in this country
-
Which I support wholeheartedly..................PROVIDING the patient isn't having life forced on them when they feel it's not in their best interests.
Life forced on them? that's an interesting way of looking at it!
but we force the mentally ill to have treatment by virtue of being able to section them under the Mental Health Act , presumably you are therefore against that too?>
-
What I also find disgusting and frightening is the way the media/celebrities DICTATE how the young should look regarding their weight/fashion/diet etc etc. This must damage the mental health of many youngsters.
This is cruel and very damaging and probably one of the biggest causes of depression among lots of people.
undoubtedly , together with the increasing reliance on social media, and internet to communicate and grow rather than face to face and real life experiences...but that's a debate for another thread
-
I dont agree with assisted suicide for me or anyone else. The fact is mental illness is not incurable it can be treated , I don't believe we should give up on anyone , life is precious ! There are far worse symptoms of mental illness than this woman was displaying, I have seen people with depression who are in a catatonic state , that is as low as you can go and I have seen them recover from that , you are saying we should be dispensing with them when they decide they have had enough but the reality is that they could make a recovery , no way should we assist them to end their life when they are mentally unwell and lacking the insight into the situation , we should be protecting them ! As a society we should be looking to improve suicide rates not increase them!
don't presuppose that I haven't been in a dark place myself, but what that has to do with i do not know , i would think anyone who has been in a dark place and is here to tell the tale would be totally against assisted suicide .
How much longer would you have FORCED this poor girl to live when life seems to have been intolerable to her for years? You're fully entitled to make the decision for yourself about whether you live or die. I believe others are entitled to the same. Whether or not I agree with their decision doesn't come into the equation. How do I know what it feels like to be another person? Unless I do, I don't believe I'm qualified -or entitled- to say what's right for them. ALL I'm entitled to is my own opinion.
-
How much longer would you have FORCED this poor girl to live when life seems to have been intolerable to her for years? You're fully entitled to make the decision for yourself about whether you live or die. I believe others are entitled to the same. Whether or not I agree with their decision doesn't come into the equation. How do I know what it feels like to be another person? Unless I do, I don't believe I'm qualified -or entitled- to say what's right for them. ALL I'm entitled to is my own opinion.
But are they entitled to force others to carry out their death wish?
-
Life forced on them? that's an interesting way of looking at it!
but we force the mentally ill to have treatment by virtue of being able to section them under the Mental Health Act , presumably you are therefore against that too?>
I didn't say we shouldn't TRY to heal/cure, but I do believe there comes a time when the cure may cause more distress than the illness. There are those receiving treatment for cancer who choose to stop. We accept that they've had as much as they can take. How is this any different from being long term mentally ill?
-
But are they entitled to force others to carry out their death wish?
Perhaps, Steve, after reviewing the patient's history, it wouldn't be a problem, but I don't suppose anyone would be "forced" into doing something they found abhorrent. There are nurses and doctors who refuse to take part in the termination of pregnancies. I imagine there will be medics who won't participate in blood transfusions because of religious beliefs.
-
I didn't say we shouldn't TRY to heal/cure, but I do believe there comes a time when the cure may cause more distress than the illness. There are those receiving treatment for cancer who choose to stop. We accept that they've had as much as they can take. How is this any different from being long term mentally ill?
you can't compare mental illness and terminal cancer
-
How much longer would you have FORCED this poor girl to live when life seems to have been intolerable to her for years? You're fully entitled to make the decision for yourself about whether you live or die. I believe others are entitled to the same. Whether or not I agree with their decision doesn't come into the equation. How do I know what it feels like to be another person? Unless I do, I don't believe I'm qualified -or entitled- to say what's right for them. ALL I'm entitled to is my own opinion.
No one is forcing her , she could have decided to kill herself, of course people can't force others to live if they are hell bent on killing themselves but the compassionate thing to do would be to prevent them from doing so as we do when we section people etc what we must not do is hand them the poison to kill themselves !
-
you can't compare mental illness and terminal cancer
And YOU clearly have little idea of what it might feel like when BOTH decide they've come to the end of the road. When they've had enough of needles being stuck into them and different drugs being tried on them. The only thing I can't compare is what constitutes the end of the road for the individual. Each will have their own.
-
There's an article here which I'm translating via Google Translate, my Dutch not sufficient to render the text comprehensible. There might be unmanageable chunks but here goes. The pictures are heartbreaking.
https://www.hln.be/nieuws/buitenland/aurelia-krijgt-na-acht-jaar-psychisch-lijden-haar-vurig-gewenste-dood~a9cd80e8/
Daily life
07 March 2018 by EO
Why Eline as a Christian has started to think differently about euthanasia
Aurelia Brouwers put an end to her life by euthanasia at the end of January. The Christian Eline Rietkerk worked on a documentary about her. At the EO she explains why she has started to think differently about euthanasia.
The 29-year-old Aurelia was physically healthy, but indicated that she was unbearable and hopeless. She struggled with borderline, did self-harm, heard voices, had psychoses and was depressed. She did not want to live anymore for years. On New Year's Eve, she received permission for euthanasia after a long trajectory. "Last June, I had my first meeting at the End of Life Clinic, I was out and no one can help me, I want to die in a dignified way, I think I deserve a dignified death."
"Before I met Aurelia, I had a clear idea about euthanasia," says documentary maker Eline. "I believe that God is about life and death, so to put an end to your life yourself goes against it." As she got to know Aurelia better, her opinion about euthanasia became more and more nuanced. "She did not sleep, had psychoses and was terrified of the nights. (...) Aurelia did not want to die either, she did not want to suffer anymore, she could not do it anymore, I understood that."
Eline refers to a Canadian Christian who started a petition to stop Aurelia's death. It struck her that many Christians judged harshly about Aurelia. "If someone no longer sees a way out and suffers, you have to support so
PHOTO HISSINK Aurelia Brouwers.
It has been nice for the Dutch Aurelia Brouwers, only 29 years. Although, beautiful? It was hell in her head. Years of contiguous. A storm that never went down. Unbearable psychic suffering. Yesterday, Friday, January 26, the woman from Deventer got euthanasia. "I hope that reincarnation does not exist. I do not want to go back to this rot-earth.
Yes, she feels guilty towards her father, she says 23 days before her death. His wife, her mother, passed away last August. To a heart condition. He is still in the middle of the grief processing. Aurelia itself, by the way. And then her father must also let his daughter go. "And I'm going to mom."
Aurelia, the only child, swallows, but quickly recovers. "'You do not have to feel guilty,' says my father. Your euthanasia is so dominant, you want to die for so long. He is not happy about it, of course not. But he is happy for me. He grants me th
PHOTO HISSINK Aurelia Brouwers.
It has been nice for the Dutch Aurelia Brouwers, only 29 years. Although, beautiful? It was hell in her head. Years of contiguous. A storm that never went down. Unbearable psychic suffering. Yesterday, Friday, January 26, the woman from Deventer got euthanasia. "I hope that reincarnation does not exist. I do not want to go back to this rot-earth. "
Yes, she feels guilty towards her father, she says 23 days before her death. His wife, her mother, passed away last August. To a heart condition. He is still in the middle of the grief processing. Aurelia itself, by the way. And then her father must also let his daughter go. "And I'm going to mom."
Aurelia, the only child, swallows, but quickly recovers. "'You do not have to feel guilty,' says my father. Your euthanasia is so dominant, you want to die for so long. He is not happy about it, of course not. But he is happy for me. He grants me the
is and that I choose death. Do not blame me for a cowardly act. You do not have a death wish for pleasure. ''
Bible
The young woman is also so angry about opponents of euthanasia from the religious angle. "I am evangelical. Everyone reads the Bible in a different way. A ban on euthanasia, that is not love of God? If God is love, then sometimes you have to let go. I also think that God can let go of love. I do not believe in hell after death, it does not exist. I believe that God receives me with open arms. Hell? That is the earth for me. Some politicians are very offensive to people who want euthanasia, by wanting to ban it. I mean, if you want to suffer until the end, fine, but do not put that on someone else. "
Yes, it really hurts her that some people react violently to her euthanasia. Make her up for everything and everything. Last but not least, an ex-girlfriend with whom she has been hit. For a moment she thinks about her wording. "She said, 'you're a bad daughter that you abandon your father, you're a weakling, you have to be ashamed of your father doing this.' Really, she said. Everyone can scold me rottenly, but do not take my family. This comment hurt me the most. "Fortunately, she says, she also gets a lot of positive reactions. People who respect her decision and also realize that a life for Aurelia on this earth has not been given. That she deserves to die worthy.
I am evangelical. Everyone reads the Bible in a different way. A ban on euthanasia, that is not love of God?
Aurelia
Last toast
In the midst of dear friends, Aurelia spent a final toast just before the intake of her deadly drink, under the guidance of a doctor and psychiatric nurse at the End of Life Clinic. And with music from Hugh
-
There's an article here which I'm translating via Google Translate, my Dutch not sufficient to render the text comprehensible. There might be unmanageable chunks but here goes. The pictures are heartbreaking.
https://www.hln.be/nieuws/buitenland/aurelia-krijgt-na-acht-jaar-psychisch-lijden-haar-vurig-gewenste-dood~a9cd80e8/
Daily life
07 March 2018 by EO
Why Eline as a Christian has started to think differently about euthanasia
Aurelia Brouwers put an end to her life by euthanasia at the end of January. The Christian Eline Rietkerk worked on a documentary about her. At the EO she explains why she has started to think differently about euthanasia.
The 29-year-old Aurelia was physically healthy, but indicated that she was unbearable and hopeless. She struggled with borderline, did self-harm, heard voices, had psychoses and was depressed. She did not want to live anymore for years. On New Year's Eve, she received permission for euthanasia after a long trajectory. "Last June, I had my first meeting at the End of Life Clinic, I was out and no one can help me, I want to die in a dignified way, I think I deserve a dignified death."
"Before I met Aurelia, I had a clear idea about euthanasia," says documentary maker Eline. "I believe that God is about life and death, so to put an end to your life yourself goes against it." As she got to know Aurelia better, her opinion about euthanasia became more and more nuanced. "She did not sleep, had psychoses and was terrified of the nights. (...) Aurelia did not want to die either, she did not want to suffer anymore, she could not do it anymore, I understood that."
Eline refers to a Canadian Christian who started a petition to stop Aurelia's death. It struck her that many Christians judged harshly about Aurelia. "If someone no longer sees a way out and suffers, you have to support so
PHOTO HISSINK Aurelia Brouwers.
It has been nice for the Dutch Aurelia Brouwers, only 29 years. Although, beautiful? It was hell in her head. Years of contiguous. A storm that never went down. Unbearable psychic suffering. Yesterday, Friday, January 26, the woman from Deventer got euthanasia. "I hope that reincarnation does not exist. I do not want to go back to this rot-earth.
Yes, she feels guilty towards her father, she says 23 days before her death. His wife, her mother, passed away last August. To a heart condition. He is still in the middle of the grief processing. Aurelia itself, by the way. And then her father must also let his daughter go. "And I'm going to mom."
Aurelia, the only child, swallows, but quickly recovers. "'You do not have to feel guilty,' says my father. Your euthanasia is so dominant, you want to die for so long. He is not happy about it, of course not. But he is happy for me. He grants me th
PHOTO HISSINK Aurelia Brouwers.
It has been nice for the Dutch Aurelia Brouwers, only 29 years. Although, beautiful? It was hell in her head. Years of contiguous. A storm that never went down. Unbearable psychic suffering. Yesterday, Friday, January 26, the woman from Deventer got euthanasia. "I hope that reincarnation does not exist. I do not want to go back to this rot-earth. "
Yes, she feels guilty towards her father, she says 23 days before her death. His wife, her mother, passed away last August. To a heart condition. He is still in the middle of the grief processing. Aurelia itself, by the way. And then her father must also let his daughter go. "And I'm going to mom."
Aurelia, the only child, swallows, but quickly recovers. "'You do not have to feel guilty,' says my father. Your euthanasia is so dominant, you want to die for so long. He is not happy about it, of course not. But he is happy for me. He grants me the
is and that I choose death. Do not blame me for a cowardly act. You do not have a death wish for pleasure. ''
Bible
The young woman is also so angry about opponents of euthanasia from the religious angle. "I am evangelical. Everyone reads the Bible in a different way. A ban on euthanasia, that is not love of God? If God is love, then sometimes you have to let go. I also think that God can let go of love. I do not believe in hell after death, it does not exist. I believe that God receives me with open arms. Hell? That is the earth for me. Some politicians are very offensive to people who want euthanasia, by wanting to ban it. I mean, if you want to suffer until the end, fine, but do not put that on someone else. "
Yes, it really hurts her that some people react violently to her euthanasia. Make her up for everything and everything. Last but not least, an ex-girlfriend with whom she has been hit. For a moment she thinks about her wording. "She said, 'you're a bad daughter that you abandon your father, you're a weakling, you have to be ashamed of your father doing this.' Really, she said. Everyone can scold me rottenly, but do not take my family. This comment hurt me the most. "Fortunately, she says, she also gets a lot of positive reactions. People who respect her decision and also realize that a life for Aurelia on this earth has not been given. That she deserves to die worthy.
I am evangelical. Everyone reads the Bible in a different way. A ban on euthanasia, that is not love of God?
Aurelia
Last toast
In the midst of dear friends, Aurelia spent a final toast just before the intake of her deadly drink, under the guidance of a doctor and psychiatric nurse at the End of Life Clinic. And with music from Hugh
Steve, that was heart breaking but worth the struggle I had reading it. Thank you for the time and trouble that writing it must have taken.
-
There's an article here which I'm translating via Google Translate, my Dutch not sufficient to render the text comprehensible. There might be unmanageable chunks but here goes. The pictures are heartbreaking.
https://www.hln.be/nieuws/buitenland/aurelia-krijgt-na-acht-jaar-psychisch-lijden-haar-vurig-gewenste-dood~a9cd80e8/
Daily life
07 March 2018 by EO
Why Eline as a Christian has started to think differently about euthanasia
Aurelia Brouwers put an end to her life by euthanasia at the end of January. The Christian Eline Rietkerk worked on a documentary about her. At the EO she explains why she has started to think differently about euthanasia.
The 29-year-old Aurelia was physically healthy, but indicated that she was unbearable and hopeless. She struggled with borderline, did self-harm, heard voices, had psychoses and was depressed. She did not want to live anymore for years. On New Year's Eve, she received permission for euthanasia after a long trajectory. "Last June, I had my first meeting at the End of Life Clinic, I was out and no one can help me, I want to die in a dignified way, I think I deserve a dignified death."
"Before I met Aurelia, I had a clear idea about euthanasia," says documentary maker Eline. "I believe that God is about life and death, so to put an end to your life yourself goes against it." As she got to know Aurelia better, her opinion about euthanasia became more and more nuanced. "She did not sleep, had psychoses and was terrified of the nights. (...) Aurelia did not want to die either, she did not want to suffer anymore, she could not do it anymore, I understood that."
Eline refers to a Canadian Christian who started a petition to stop Aurelia's death. It struck her that many Christians judged harshly about Aurelia. "If someone no longer sees a way out and suffers, you have to support so
PHOTO HISSINK Aurelia Brouwers.
It has been nice for the Dutch Aurelia Brouwers, only 29 years. Although, beautiful? It was hell in her head. Years of contiguous. A storm that never went down. Unbearable psychic suffering. Yesterday, Friday, January 26, the woman from Deventer got euthanasia. "I hope that reincarnation does not exist. I do not want to go back to this rot-earth.
Yes, she feels guilty towards her father, she says 23 days before her death. His wife, her mother, passed away last August. To a heart condition. He is still in the middle of the grief processing. Aurelia itself, by the way. And then her father must also let his daughter go. "And I'm going to mom."
Aurelia, the only child, swallows, but quickly recovers. "'You do not have to feel guilty,' says my father. Your euthanasia is so dominant, you want to die for so long. He is not happy about it, of course not. But he is happy for me. He grants me th
PHOTO HISSINK Aurelia Brouwers.
It has been nice for the Dutch Aurelia Brouwers, only 29 years. Although, beautiful? It was hell in her head. Years of contiguous. A storm that never went down. Unbearable psychic suffering. Yesterday, Friday, January 26, the woman from Deventer got euthanasia. "I hope that reincarnation does not exist. I do not want to go back to this rot-earth. "
Yes, she feels guilty towards her father, she says 23 days before her death. His wife, her mother, passed away last August. To a heart condition. He is still in the middle of the grief processing. Aurelia itself, by the way. And then her father must also let his daughter go. "And I'm going to mom."
Aurelia, the only child, swallows, but quickly recovers. "'You do not have to feel guilty,' says my father. Your euthanasia is so dominant, you want to die for so long. He is not happy about it, of course not. But he is happy for me. He grants me the
is and that I choose death. Do not blame me for a cowardly act. You do not have a death wish for pleasure. ''
Bible
The young woman is also so angry about opponents of euthanasia from the religious angle. "I am evangelical. Everyone reads the Bible in a different way. A ban on euthanasia, that is not love of God? If God is love, then sometimes you have to let go. I also think that God can let go of love. I do not believe in hell after death, it does not exist. I believe that God receives me with open arms. Hell? That is the earth for me. Some politicians are very offensive to people who want euthanasia, by wanting to ban it. I mean, if you want to suffer until the end, fine, but do not put that on someone else. "
Yes, it really hurts her that some people react violently to her euthanasia. Make her up for everything and everything. Last but not least, an ex-girlfriend with whom she has been hit. For a moment she thinks about her wording. "She said, 'you're a bad daughter that you abandon your father, you're a weakling, you have to be ashamed of your father doing this.' Really, she said. Everyone can scold me rottenly, but do not take my family. This comment hurt me the most. "Fortunately, she says, she also gets a lot of positive reactions. People who respect her decision and also realize that a life for Aurelia on this earth has not been given. That she deserves to die worthy.
I am evangelical. Everyone reads the Bible in a different way. A ban on euthanasia, that is not love of God?
Aurelia
Last toast
In the midst of dear friends, Aurelia spent a final toast just before the intake of her deadly drink, under the guidance of a doctor and psychiatric nurse at the End of Life Clinic. And with music from Hugh
Massive tragedy for her and her family. Thank you Steve
-
Hasn't changed my mind one iota. I feel sorry for her father.
-
And YOU clearly have little idea of what it might feel like when BOTH decide they've come to the end of the road. When they've had enough of needles being stuck into them and different drugs being tried on them. The only thing I can't compare is what constitutes the end of the road for the individual. Each will have their own.
And YOU clearly don't know anything about me , so stop telling me what I have an idea about and what I don't.
-
And YOU clearly don't know anything about me , so stop telling me what I have an idea about and what I don't.
[/q
uote]
How and what you write and how you respond says much about you. None of us owns the right to say how others live or die.
-
And YOU clearly don't know anything about me , so stop telling me what I have an idea about and what I don't.
[/q
uote]
How and what you write and how you respond says much about you. None of us owns the right to say how others live or die.
For some reason you want to make this personal about "me" , I suspect just because I don't agree with your pov.
-
I wouldn't want this woman to cause trouble after her death. There are still huge gaps which we just don't know about.
-
For some reason you want to make this personal about "me" , I suspect just because I don't agree with your pov.
Please refrain from telling me what you think I want and allow me to assure you that this isn't about YOU. You're fully entitled to whatever opinion you hold but what's right for you probably isn't right for others.
-
Please refrain from telling me what you think I want and allow me to assure you that this isn't about YOU. You're fully entitled to whatever opinion you hold but what's right for you probably isn't right for others.
As I said , STOP making personal remarks to me, this is not about me we are debating an issue that affects society in general. I am entitled to my own opinions without people making personal remarks about me. I will continue to state my opinions and not be intimidated by others who think they know better.
-
I wouldn't want this woman to cause trouble after her death. There are still huge gaps which we just don't know about.
in what way is she causing trouble? although she clearly wanted all the world to know about it otherwise she wouldnt have done the documentary and the media articles ???
-
As I said , STOP making personal remarks to me, this is not about me we are debating an issue that affects society in general. I am entitled to my own opinions without people making personal remarks about me. I will continue to state my opinions and not be intimidated by others who think they know better.
As I have said on several occasions, this isn't about YOU and to the best of my knowledge, that's the ONLY thing I've said to you, personally. I have NEVER said that you're not entitled to your own opinion. All I've said is whilst your opinion is right for you, it's not right for everyone.
-
Instead of plugging headlines like this resources should be possible/found worldwide into the reasons why so many young people are committing suicide. It's heartbreaking for victims and families alike.
-
As I have said on several occasions, this isn't about YOU and to the best of my knowledge, that's the ONLY thing I've said to you, personally. I have NEVER said that you're not entitled to your own opinion. All I've said is whilst your opinion is right for you, it's not right for everyone.
no it is not the only thing you have said to me! if you're not going to be honest then please do not address me again. End of.
-
Instead of plugging headlines like this resources should be possible/found worldwide into the reasons why so many young people are committing suicide. It's heartbreaking for victims and families alike.
Amen
-
no it is not the only thing you have said to me! if you're not going to be honest then please do not address me again. End of.
Tell you what. Put me on ignore then you won't need to read what I say. When you post on an open forum it's an invitation for any, to answer, who have opinions on it.
-
in what way is she causing trouble? although she clearly wanted all the world to know about it otherwise she wouldnt have done the documentary and the media articles ???
She's causing trouble between two members here is what I meant. As far as Aurelia Brouwers is concerned I still don't feel she has the right to demand of others to assist in her death and if it were up to me I'd close the Levenseindekliniek down.
-
Tell you what. Put me on ignore then you won't need to read what I say. When you post on an open forum it's an invitation for any, to answer, who have opinions on it.
someone show me how to do this please,
and you are missing the point , i dont mind anyone answering my posts but what you were doing was a personal attack.
i will gladly put you on ignore
-
someone show me how to do this please,
and you are missing the point , i dont mind anyone answering my posts but what you were doing was a personal attack.
i will gladly put you on ignore
I have NO recall of launching "a personal attack" on you. You chose to take it as such. I'd have said exactly the same to anyone who thinks that because they hold a certain view -which effectively could have an adverse effect on others' lives- it must be adhered to by all. I highlighted this by revealing that I don't believe abortion is right but I'd never deny women the right to make that choice for themselves.
-
JaneJ now on ignore list.
-
She's causing trouble between two members here is what I meant. As far as Aurelia Brouwers is concerned I still don't feel she has the right to demand of others to assist in her death and if it were up to me I'd close the Levenseindekliniek down.
I agree, she doesn't have that right.
-
She's causing trouble between two members here is what I meant. As far as Aurelia Brouwers is concerned I still don't feel she has the right to demand of others to assist in her death and if it were up to me I'd close the Levenseindekliniek down.
Surely it's about choice. No one is FORCED to participate in a death of another. Some may see it as compassion.
-
Surely it's about choice. No one is FORCED to participate in a death of another. Some may see it as compassion.
But Jane professionals are getting paid to do a job. It's a production line of death. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/switzerland/7641989/300-urns-with-human-ashes-dumped-in-Lake-Zurich-near-Dignitas-clinic.html
-
But Jane professionals are getting paid to do a job. It's a production line of death. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/switzerland/7641989/300-urns-with-human-ashes-dumped-in-Lake-Zurich-near-Dignitas-clinic.html
Aww Steve. What you see as "a production line of death" I imagine those who work there see it as helping people out of intolerable situations. Perhaps it's compassion which guides them. My late partner would have gone to them but sadly was too ill to make the journey, and therein is the rub. The visitor to Dignitas must be capable of administering the drug with their own hand. It's certainly a choice I'd make for myself if circumstances allowed, and as I've already stipulated that as much of me can be used as is deemed possible, I've decided not to have a funeral service, but a memorial service followed by a party. It's of NO moment what happens to my ashes. With no family, I'd be very happy for them to be part of a lake in Switzerland for eternity.
-
But Jane professionals are getting paid to do a job. It's a production line of death. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/switzerland/7641989/300-urns-with-human-ashes-dumped-in-Lake-Zurich-near-Dignitas-clinic.html
exactly and I wouldn't want to be the cause of someone else's death ! can you imagine having to dish out the poison and watch them die! horrendous. I wouldn't do that job for any amount of money
dumping of the ashes like they are garbage speaks volumes!
-
exactly and I wouldn't want to be the cause of someone else's death ! can you imagine having to dish out the poison and watch them die! horrendous. I wouldn't do that job for any amount of money
dumping of the ashes like they are garbage speaks volumes!
I imagine to do such a job, one would have to put self aside. I appreciate that not everyone is capable of such.
As for ashes? Whose responsibility are they? What might be the alternative to disposing of them? My friend had her husband's ashes made into a locket for herself and a ring for her granddaughter. I believe it's also possible to create 'diamond' from human remains. Like euthanasia, this isn't for everyone. Each to their own.
-
Aww Steve. What you see as "a production line of death" I imagine those who work there see it as helping people out of intolerable situations. Perhaps it's compassion which guides them. My late partner would have gone to them but sadly was too ill to make the journey, and therein is the rub. The visitor to Dignitas must be capable of administering the drug with their own hand. It's certainly a choice I'd make for myself if circumstances allowed, and as I've already stipulated that as much of me can be used as is deemed possible, I've decided not to have a funeral service, but a memorial service followed by a party. It's of NO moment what happens to my ashes. With no family, I'd be very happy for them to be part of a lake in Switzerland for eternity.
I'm not averse to cremation, but not with my ashes mixed in one of many large urns with hundreds of others whom I never met. I'd prefer my ashes to be scattered on my favourite spot by at least one person who knew me for some length of time, not a faceless bureaucrat dumping them like trash then ticking a box on a sheet before leaving for the evening.
-
I'm not averse to cremation, but not with my ashes mixed in one of many large urns with hundreds of others whom I never met. I'd prefer my ashes to be scattered on my favourite spot by at least one person who knew me for some length of time, not a faceless bureaucrat dumping them like trash then ticking a box on a sheet before leaving for the evening.
I very much hope it will be as you wish, Steve..................but not just yet, eh? :)
-
I'm not averse to cremation, but not with my ashes mixed in one of many large urns with hundreds of others whom I never met. I'd prefer my ashes to be scattered on my favourite spot by at least one person who knew me for some length of time, not a faceless bureaucrat dumping them like trash then ticking a box on a sheet before leaving for the evening.
Perish the thought.
Providing I'm pronounced dead first and foremost I'll be buried surrounded by my favourite flowers following my favourite music. No cremation for me thankyou very much.
-
I'm not averse to cremation, but not with my ashes mixed in one of many large urns with hundreds of others whom I never met. I'd prefer my ashes to be scattered on my favourite spot by at least one person who knew me for some length of time, not a faceless bureaucrat dumping them like trash then ticking a box on a sheet before leaving for the evening.
Doesn't bother me Steve, It's only a body, like an old overcoat that's no longer wanted. ;D
-
New Zealand has voted to legalize assisted dying for terminally ill people. If the letter of the law is followed I might have been able to support this proposal. My fear is that this will now open the floodgates to legalized euthanasia under many more circumstances and the elderly who feel that they are a burden on their relatives will come under pressure to end their own lives. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/30/new-zealand-votes-to-legalise-euthanasia-but-against-legalising-cannabis-in-referendum
-
New Zealand has voted to legalize assisted dying for terminally ill people. If the letter of the law is followed I might have been able to support this proposal. My fear is that this will now open the floodgates to legalized euthanasia under many more circumstances and the elderly who feel that they are a burden on their relatives will come under pressure to end their own lives. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/30/new-zealand-votes-to-legalise-euthanasia-but-against-legalising-cannabis-in-referendum
The thought of it coming to this country is scary to say the least.
-
Should people with terminal cancer be allowed to end their own life, have they the right to ask another person to help them or should they let nature take its course? https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/top-uk-brain-surgeon-calls-for-urgent-inquiry-into-assisted-dying/ar-BB1fcO34?ocid=msedgntp
-
He was a perfectionist in life, an analyser, a battling braveheart on the field of football, the only career he had known since leaving school at 18, a renowned gentleman off the pitch. He ostensibly had the perfect domestic arrangements with a pretty cookie-cutter girlfriend and three beautiful, energetic daughters.
Yet it seemed the pressure became too much. On the evening of March 31 he drove the three miles from his Yeovil home to the Lanes Luxury Boutique Hotel & Spa at East Coker with the intention of taking his own life. In retrospect it seems he was on a downward trajectory from his numerous injuries sustained from 2012 onwards, which limited his worth to employers and may have had a deleterious effect on his mental health. It led to an out of character altercation incident at a Shropshire pub the following year, for which he was fortunate to escape jail.
One always asks oneself with suicide whether there were signs, whether there was something one could have done to prevent, where the extended family of Lee and Rachel were to be found, but in the final analysis they are not to blame. Only Lee Collins knew why he chose to end his life, Whether he was of sound mind or not, those left behind have to pick up the pieces and carry on for the children, to create as such a normality as can be created under the circumstances, to grieve yes, but allow the children to thrive in their environment without the guilt which may blight yet further life. https://www.aol.co.uk/news/footballer-lee-collins-died-hanging-153610505.html
-
Arguably, we already have the informal practice of euthanasia, of a sort, in this country's hospitals under the doctrine of double effect, which came out of the R v Bodkin case, and no doubt similar practices existed before that.
For me, the ruling principle is individual bodily sovereignty. Ultimately, an individual should have the right to do as he wishes, even if foolish, as long as it harms no-one else. If we protect people too much from their own foolishness, then ultimately we will just end up with more bad decisions in society, not less, because people will not develop experience and judgement. It can be foolish to commit suicide, and it is terrible if a seemingly healthy person does this, but at the same time some people cannot face life further and would prefer to end things, and sometimes this is in its own way a sensible decision that comes after lengthy reflection on the matter. Shouldn't we respect people's wishes? And shouldn't the state perhaps allow a lawful means of exit for these people, to avoid the trauma and complications of suicide?
I appreciate that an official system of lawfully-condoned assisted suicide has dangers. Vulnerable people such as the elderly, and those who are injured or mentally- or physically-ill and depend on care from others, could under pressure to end their lives. A rather nasty climate of opinion may also develop in society that elderly people, or people with debilitating injuries, or serious physical or mental illnesses, or disabilities, ought to go for euthanasia and should not be around.
There is also the problem that even if some sort of euthanasia is brought in on a sensitive, controlled basis, that could prove to be the thin end of the wedge. Once the principle is established, then campaigners - normally well-intentioned people - will bring actions in the courts challenging the restrictions so that sufferers of lesser afflictions can also apply for assisted death. And to be fair, these people's arguments would be not without validity, since if you try to restrict things on the basis of type of affliction or circumstances, then there will be some subjectivity and unfairness in that. Once introduced, it will never be fair to ration euthanasia and have people deciding who should qualify for it and who should not, and though some discretionary authority is inescapable, should those decisions not be based on an evaluation of the patient's own experience and views, rather than an application of rigid top-down criteria? If an otherwise healthy person suffers from serious depression and just doesn't want to go on with life and that is his considered decision, why should anybody stand in his way?
-
Arguably, we already have the informal practice of euthanasia, of a sort, in this country's hospitals under the doctrine of double effect, which came out of the R v Bodkin case, and no doubt similar practices existed before that.
For me, the ruling principle is individual bodily sovereignty. Ultimately, an individual should have the right to do as he wishes, even if foolish, as long as it harms no-one else. If we protect people too much from their own foolishness, then ultimately we will just end up with more bad decisions in society, not less, because people will not develop experience and judgement. It can be foolish to commit suicide, and it is terrible if a seemingly healthy person does this, but at the same time some people cannot face life further and would prefer to end things, and sometimes this is in its own way a sensible decision that comes after lengthy reflection on the matter. Shouldn't we respect people's wishes? And shouldn't the state perhaps allow a lawful means of exit for these people, to avoid the trauma and complications of suicide?
I appreciate that an official system of lawfully-condoned assisted suicide has dangers. Vulnerable people such as the elderly, and those who are injured or mentally- or physically-ill and depend on care from others, could under pressure to end their lives. A rather nasty climate of opinion may also develop in society that elderly people, or people with debilitating injuries, or serious physical or mental illnesses, or disabilities, ought to go for euthanasia and should not be around.
There is also the problem that even if some sort of euthanasia is brought in on a sensitive, controlled basis, that could prove to be the thin end of the wedge. Once the principle is established, then campaigners - normally well-intentioned people - will bring actions in the courts challenging the restrictions so that sufferers of lesser afflictions can also apply for assisted death. And to be fair, these people's arguments would be not without validity, since if you try to restrict things on the basis of type of affliction or circumstances, then there will be some subjectivity and unfairness in that. Once introduced, it will never be fair to ration euthanasia and have people deciding who should qualify for it and who should not, and though some discretionary authority is inescapable, should those decisions not be based on an evaluation of the patient's own experience and views, rather than an application of rigid top-down criteria? If an otherwise healthy person suffers from serious depression and just doesn't want to go on with life and that is his considered decision, why should anybody stand in his way?
Many people (including myself) take John Bodkin Adams to be a serial killer who got off due to his Establishment connections. If I compare how methods of suicide seem to have evolved over the decades I recall the Scottish group EXIT providing a polythene bag with drawstring attached in 1980, twenty years later the character of Dot Cotton in Eastenders was on trial for murder(and rightly so) for giving her friend morphine pills, and in June Brown's own time it was not uncommon to stick one's head in the gas oven, a route which her husband took but became impossible once North Sea gas came onshore. In past months I have read of a couple of cases of young people killing themselves by means of chemicals obtained online, a method which as yet has not I believe been closed down.
As usual with your posts you cover most bases though your dragnet is so wide I'm not altogether sure where you stand. For me the act of suicide is abhorrent by any means, though if it is to be undertaken I suppose it would be best committed by an individual which doesn't cause distress or inconvenience to others (for example to throw yourself in front of a Jubilee Line train might cause lasting mental anguish to the Tube driver or onlookers as well as delaying people's journey to work). If you are terminally ill and have loved ones I think you should spare them the anguish, even if it means a few extra weeks' suffering. I don't like the idea of affording doctors the power to end life, lest this should lead to another Harold Shipman case, a scandal which occurred not far from where I live.
-
As usual with your posts you cover most bases though your dragnet is so wide I'm not altogether sure where you stand.
That's because I try to think about what I am saying, and I try to make thoughtful contributions to the Forum, and I dislike intellectual arrogance in general. I find that the more I think about a topic, question or subject, the more taxing it becomes. When that happens in regard to a tricky issue such as this, it is difficult to come to a definite view one way or the other. Similarly, on the matter of capital punishment: I am not an enthusiast for it, but I acknowledge that justice demands it in some cases, and I think it should be up to the courts to decide.
Dichotomies are often practically unhelpful anyway. I think issues such as this have to give way to pragmatism and messy compromises in the end. It's easy for us to say that a terminally-ill patient should endure a few more weeks' suffering so as uphold high-flown ethical or moral principle and also not upset his relatives, but our view may well be different if we find ourselves as one of the patients enduring such suffering.
For me the act of suicide is abhorrent by any means,
I should think it is abhorrent to many people. In my case, I think abhorrent is the wrong word. I am not religious and I do not see a moral dimension to it. Certainly I find it disturbing and troublesome, and I would try to talk anybody out of it, though I must also acknowledge that it is for the individual to make their own decision about it, and I also acknowledge that where a person of at least minimal mental competence decides to commit suicide for his own reasons, then it must be his right. Who am I to demand otherwise?
I would find any sort of organised system of euthanasia quite frightening in some ways, due to its deeper implications and possible ramifications. However, the fact is that authorities in the Netherlands and Switzerland allow it or condone it without any evident disruption to their societies. It would seem that uptake among the healthy who 'just want to die' is relatively tiny and restricted to desperate people, and such people face a number of obstacles before their wishes will be carried out. The obstacles may not always be difficult to surmount, but I suppose that's because the point of the system is to ensure that a person's wishes are carried out only after a responsible person has checked that they are fully-informed and know what they are doing.
Personally, I think that is a reasonable system. That doesn't mean I like it or that I'm going to be rushing to join Dignitas and book an appointment next week due to the long-term trauma inflicted on me by Adam's stubborn refusal to recognise the genius of my Crispy theory and recommend me for the CT, but it does mean I can acknowledge that other people believe this should be an option on the table for them, and there ought to be a system in place to cater for them without it obnoxiously impacting on the rest of society.
And one day I might need it.
though if it is to be undertaken I suppose it would be best committed by an individual which doesn't cause distress or inconvenience to others (for example to throw yourself in front of a Jubilee Line train might cause lasting mental anguish to the Tube driver or onlookers as well as delaying people's journey to work). If you are terminally ill and have loved ones I think you should spare them the anguish, even if it means a few extra weeks' suffering. I don't like the idea of affording doctors the power to end life, lest this should lead to another Harold Shipman case, a scandal which occurred not far from where I live.
Arguably doctors do technically have that power under double effect. What normally happens is that there's a nod and a wink between the patient or the relatives, and the doctor administers an overdose of morphine. Job done. It's just not discussed much, because it's not something that anybody really wants to discuss, and besides, it's only supposed to be done when the patient is dying anyway. Nevertheless, it won't always be done with the patient's explicit consent. The distinction with the Shipman case is that a double effect defence was not possible, and he knew this, which is why he was writing-up all the death certificates.
But euthanasia per se doesn't give the medical profession any 'power' over a patient. It's a completely different situation. Euthanasia in the sense we are referring to is strictly elective, and in virtually all cases, there will be no legal dispute over consent. Thus, a Shipman-type incident could only happen if the doctor forges the consent, and I should think that is virtually impossible because consent will not be a once-only matter, rather it will be given progressively over a long period of time as the patient consults with several doctors and non-medical people. Therefore I don't see any scope for the criminality you mention.
-
I wish I could agree with your last two sentences. The sad fact is that Harold Shipman was only caught after approximately 250 murders because one of these victims had apparently bequeathed him a substantial sum of money.
-
I wish I could agree with your last two sentences. The sad fact is that Harold Shipman was only caught after approximately 250 murders because one of these victims had apparently bequeathed him a substantial sum of money.
In the context of euthanasia, what you're really referring to is a dispute over consent. The only way that could arise is if the patient cannot provide oral or written consent, due to an injury or disability. In those circumstances, either some unconventional means would have to be found for the patient to convey his wishes or the request for euthanasia would have to be denied (assuming the question even arises). Furthermore, doctors do not normally carry out euthanasia. The patient must carry out the act and in Switzerland this is under the supervision of a non-medical person. Under the relevant Swiss laws, the only involvement of the medical profession is diagnostic and administrative and a doctor is not present during the final act.
If a doctor of the Shipman model wrongly authorises euthanasia and a subsequent examining clinician is unduly influenced by this view to also approve the request, that is wrong and probably a professional disciplinary offence on the part of the doctors involved, but it is not murder or manslaughter by the original doctor because the patient is still killing himself.
If such a doctor actually kills the patient and then claims it was euthanasia, that is plain murder and little to do with the permissibility of euthanasia itself, in my view. Such a doctor has plenty of opportunity to murder patients under the cloak of double effect just by fixing himself up with a job at any local hospital - a much easier route to sate his murderous lust. Falsifying euthanasia would require extensive falsification of medical records and the involvement of other medical professionals, as well as forcing the patient to drink something or be smothered with a bag, which requires violence and thus leaves incriminating evidence behind; whereas in a hospital situation, it is unlikely a doctor would be questioned for overdosing a terminally-ill or badly-suffering elderly patient.
As an aside, I read into the Shipman case a few years ago and came away unsure about the trial. It's not that I doubt he was guilty of something, and he certainly forged a will, but I take a sceptical approach to everything and it seemed to me that the prosecution case for murder relied mainly on toxicology findings - and I must tell you that I find that quite dubious.
My scepticism deepened when I considered the Smith reports, which I don't give very much credibility as it's clear the authors are engaging in guesswork, perhaps under the social and political pressure of the time. Ultimately, reports like that are always 'political' first and foremost. I think it is unlikely somebody would have been killing patients over such a long period. Assuming he was a murderer, I think it is more likely that he started this when he took over his own practice and found himself working unsupervised, and perhaps for some reason he cracked at this point - maybe just on account of middle age. Of course, I'm falling into guesswork myself. I don't know either, but remember Shipman was caught only after some years as a solo general practitioner. He had previously been in partnership and I am given to understand that no concerns of this nature were raised about him over that period.
-
I think organized suicide is horrible myself. Out of the 3248 persons who have been assisted to die at Dignitas 21% expresssed "weariness of life" rather than suffering from a terminal illness. Surely they could have been talked round by medical professionals or a man of the cloth?
Where is the dignity in Dignitas anyway..https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1269271/Fury-300-urns-containing-human-remains-Dignitas-suicide-clinic-Lake-Zurich.html
-
I think organized suicide is horrible myself. Out of the 3248 persons who have been assisted to die at Dignitas 21% expresssed "weariness of life" rather than suffering from a terminal illness. Surely they could have been talked round by medical professionals or a man of the cloth?
Where is the dignity in Dignitas anyway..https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1269271/Fury-300-urns-containing-human-remains-Dignitas-suicide-clinic-Lake-Zurich.html
Yes, I agree that looked at overall, it is horrible, but that does not mean it should be illegal. Fox hunting is horrible, but I'm not sure it was right or proper for Parliament to intervene in it. In reality, we have to accept that other people may make different choices to ours and we may have to tolerate the existence of things that we may not approve of in our own lives.
The phrase "weariness of life" could encompass lots of things. You have interpreted it trivially. Perhaps you have not been in the position of being 'weary of life', but I have and I have been suicidal and did not want to go on, as I did not see the point. Who is to say it was right for me to go on living? By what measure or benchmark is this decided? Some people just want to die. If somebody does not want to go on and cannot be talked round by appropriate people, then shouldn't their choice be respected?
-
In very rare circumstances when the quality of life has been so diminished as to become intolerable I could see the proposed law as helpful to the debate, though I still don't like it in principle. I would have thought that there might be a distinction made between mental and physical health, as it's surely a doctor's duty to help preserve life and treat the sick to the best of his or her ability and not always pander to what may be pressure exerted on an elderly individual to end life the true reasons for which may be concealed. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-58014609
-
He was a perfectionist in life, an analyser, a battling braveheart on the field of football, the only career he had known since leaving school at 18, a renowned gentleman off the pitch. He ostensibly had the perfect domestic arrangements with a pretty cookie-cutter girlfriend and three beautiful, energetic daughters.
Yet it seemed the pressure became too much. On the evening of March 31 he drove the three miles from his Yeovil home to the Lanes Luxury Boutique Hotel & Spa at East Coker with the intention of taking his own life. In retrospect it seems he was on a downward trajectory from his numerous injuries sustained from 2012 onwards, which limited his worth to employers and may have had a deleterious effect on his mental health. It led to an out of character altercation incident at a Shropshire pub the following year, for which he was fortunate to escape jail.
One always asks oneself with suicide whether there were signs, whether there was something one could have done to prevent, where the extended family of Lee and Rachel were to be found, but in the final analysis they are not to blame. Only Lee Collins knew why he chose to end his life, Whether he was of sound mind or not, those left behind have to pick up the pieces and carry on for the children, to create as such a normality as can be created under the circumstances, to grieve yes, but allow the children to thrive in their environment without the guilt which may blight yet further life. https://www.aol.co.uk/news/footballer-lee-collins-died-hanging-153610505.html
"I will record a conclusion of suicide" https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/death-lee-collins-followed-years-5742627
-
Determined to end one's own life..https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/man-travelling-to-switzerland-to-end-his-life-says-terminally-ill-have-been-failed-by-uk-law/ar-AAPAlOe?ocid=msedgntp
-
Determined to end one's own life..https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/man-travelling-to-switzerland-to-end-his-life-says-terminally-ill-have-been-failed-by-uk-law/ar-AAPAlOe?ocid=msedgntp
Steve if you don't mind me saying you do seem to post a lot of rather depressing material. There are some positive news stories out there too :)
-
Steve if you don't mind me saying you do seem to post a lot of rather depressing material. There are some positive news stories out there too :)
The Bamber case is hardly Charlie Chaplin material, is it? I suppose as one advances in years one does tend to dwell on one's own mortality a little.
-
The Bamber case is hardly Charlie Chaplin material, is it? I suppose as one advances in years one does tend to dwell on one's own mortality a little.
I was referring to your non-Bamber posts.
-
Should one be able to force the full panoply of the State to kill you? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-62592897