Significance of two double marked bullet cases, found in kitchen?

[Jerry]

When Jeremy phoned police,he was told that there was already a car in the area.Maybe it could have just been patrolling,or maybe it could have been responding to Nevills call (if indeed he made one).
Shona,I dont think it is certain that Nevill was killed first in the kitchen.If you look back at the close up pic of the main bedroom,he seems to have been in bed at some point and Im sure there were at least 2 bullets in the bedroom that could not be linked to June or Sheila.Also,you say that you are not convinced that the photos of Sheila show wet blood, but dont forget,one of the first officers on the scene (forgot his name) logged that Sheila had blood running from both sides of her mouth.I just cannot work out how all the victims had rigor mortis and yet Sheila clearly did not! She didn't even seem to be showing signs of livor mortis.Does the livor motis come first does anyone know?

Sheila died while the cops cowered outside waiting for daylight and the cavalry to arrive.

Lots of people have been shot in the head and didn't die immediately and even survived. Just look at that Congresswoman in the US who was shot in the head recently by a gunman wielding a 9mm pistol and survived to fight another day.   

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12143774

[tyler]

Would the blood have run for that many hours though? Are you saying she may have been brain dead but that the heart may still have been pumping?

[Jerry]

Would the blood have run for that many hours though? Are you saying she may have been brain dead but that the heart may still have been pumping?

It would appear that she was stunned by the shots and never managed to get upright again.  What you post is probably quite correct Tyler. The heart is a wonderful organ and in such a young woman it could continue to pump blood for a period of time.

[vidvic]

When Jeremy phoned police,he was told that there was already a car in the area

I don't recall that. Where did you see that? I thought it was near Witham. Surely they would have said "yes, we've already had a call and we're on our way" or words to that effect.....This would have calmed him down when he got agitated....

What about the timings though? Do you not think that a 3.36 call would make the timings impossible?

[Jerry]

The car in the area was undoubtedly CA7 which arrived at the farm first at 03.48 

It is interesting that car CA5 which was tasked one minute after CA7 did not arrive until 04.23

It should also be noted that CA6 took 1 minute to get there?

[tyler]

Vic,I cant remember what document I read it on now,read so many of the damn things! He was told a car was already in the area.If told that his father( or anyone else) had already phoned,then surely that would worry him?Especially when at that point he did not appreciate the seriousness of it.Just telling him that a car was already in the area was probably enough to comfort him,in the eyes of the police. Problem is,is that Jeremy seems to contradict himself here.On the one hand he was panicking during call to police,seeming anxious that his father sounded distressed,but on the other hand,wasted valuable time calling police station instead of 999 and then driving like a grandad over to the farm.Confused!

[tyler]

Jerry,did not one of the cars have to do a detour to pick up other officers.? I think that was the case.

[vidvic]

As far as I'm aware the CA7 car was at witham Police station, not 'in the area' and was despatched from there, hence the shorter travel time than the following cars, which were despatched from Chelmsford. I don't believe that JB ever claimed he was told that a 'car was already in the area'.

I totally agree with you about JB and the 999 call. Have always thought it rubbish and still do, as did the Jury.

[tyler]

I can assure you that I definately read it somewhere!

[vidvic]

I can assure you that I definately read it somewhere!

Sorry Tyler, came across right snotty there! Didn't mean it. I think what I'm saying is that I think the info you read, I believe, is wrong and that CA7 was despatched from Witham police station.

[simong]

Morning Mike, I have had a look at the pathology reports into the sizes of the entry wounds. The 5 1/2 inch wounds are.......

Nevill
1. Parietal region of the skull (top of the skull)
2. Posterior to the above wound.
3. 4 inches above elbow.

June
1. Right upper chest in front of armpit.
2. Right knee.

Are you suggesting that another gun was used to cause these injuries? If Sheila did this it would seem odd to swap guns especially with Nevill. The shots in 1 and 2 above to Nevill would have killed him and yet the other head shots he received would also have killed him. Why swap guns to shoot an already dead man?

[mike tesko]

Morning Mike, I have had a look at the pathology reports into the sizes of the entry wounds. The 5 1/2 inch wounds are.......

Nevill
1. Parietal region of the skull (top of the skull)
2. Posterior to the above wound.
3. 4 inches above elbow.

June
1. Right upper chest in front of armpit.
2. Right knee.

Are you suggesting that another gun was used to cause these injuries? If Sheila did this it would seem odd to swap guns especially with Nevill. The shots in 1 and 2 above to Nevill would have killed him and yet the other head shots he received would also have killed him. Why swap guns to shoot an already dead man?

... Well, at least it has been established that 5 of the 25 bullet entry wounds are 1/2 inch diameter. The question that begs answering, is which weapon fired the bullet, that made those 1/2 inch diameter entry holes? Was it by use of the .22 Bamber rifle? Or, as the case may be, some other as yet unidentified gun? Some evidence exists, to suggest that there has been, was some interference, with the batch of crime scene ammunition, and that there were two separate test firings, of the Bamber rifle, and one of the silencers the police had in thier possession, on or after 11th September 1985. There were two test fires of the gun/silencer, using control ammunition, (a) the unofficial test fire, and (b) the official test fire, from 20th September 1985 - bullet and bullet cases which were fired via the Bamber rifle/silencer, were used to make comparison tests, with or against crime scene ammunition, and in some instances, some of the control ammunition was switched over with individual crime scene bullets (a typical example where this took place, involves bullet, PV/20...

[Alias]

Surely, Mike, if June and the children had already been shot, Ralph would call for an ambulance and the police? What would be the point of calling Jeremy? How could he help once the shootings had begun?

... But you are forgeting that there are grounds for believing that Ralph did actually call the police, before he made the short call to Jeremy (discussed elsewhere)...

I find it hard to believe that Nevill would have had time to phone the police and Jeremy too if someone was running amok in his home with a rifle.

It is not recorded that Nevill ever phoned the police, only Jeremy's call to police is recorded reporting what his father allegedly said to him in a call some time earlier.

... Well, as you know - there is fresh information available which suggests that Ralph may have, or did make a separate call to the police. Yot only have to look at, why patrol car, CA07, was dispatched to the scene, before Jeremy contacted the police himself, to realize that the police were responding to a call for help, before police were even speaking to Jeremy. In addition to this, the person who called the police before Jeremy did, about this matter, identified the shooter, as 'his daughter', adding that 'daughter has got one of my gtns', and as you well know, Shiela was Ralphs daughter, and the weapon which is supposed to have fired all the bullets, was owned, amd it belonged to non other, than Ralph Bamber...

It DOES say in the log (as a quote of what the caller said), "My daughter".
That is puzzling. How could such a "misunderstanding" ocurr with Jeremy as the caller?

[mike tesko]

Surely, Mike, if June and the children had already been shot, Ralph would call for an ambulance and the police? What would be the point of calling Jeremy? How could he help once the shootings had begun?

... But you are forgeting that there are grounds for believing that Ralph did actually call the police, before he made the short call to Jeremy (discussed elsewhere)...

I find it hard to believe that Nevill would have had time to phone the police and Jeremy too if someone was running amok in his home with a rifle.

It is not recorded that Nevill ever phoned the police, only Jeremy's call to police is recorded reporting what his father allegedly said to him in a call some time earlier.

... Well, as you know - there is fresh information available which suggests that Ralph may have, or did make a separate call to the police. Yot only have to look at, why patrol car, CA07, was dispatched to the scene, before Jeremy contacted the police himself, to realize that the police were responding to a call for help, before police were even speaking to Jeremy. In addition to this, the person who called the police before Jeremy did, about this matter, identified the shooter, as 'his daughter', adding that 'daughter has got one of my gtns', and as you well know, Shiela was Ralphs daughter, and the weapon which is supposed to have fired all the bullets, was owned, amd it belonged to non other, than Ralph Bamber...

It DOES say in the log (as a quote of what the caller said), "My daughter".
That is puzzling. How could such a "misunderstanding" ocurr with Jeremy as the caller?

--------------------------

Let us also not forget that as a result of the earlier call (3:26am) the occupants of CA07 were dispatched to the scene, and that these were the officers who were also responsible for seeing a figure inside the farmhouse that they later claimed was nothing but a reflection of the moon on the glass of the bedroom window, and later still these were the very same officers who were responsible for relaying the messages from the scene about the discovery of two bodies inside the kitchen once police entered the building....

Odd that these very same officers are involved in all these contradictions and anomalies surrounding a figure that was seen at the bedroom window, and the fact that police found two bodies, one dead male and one dead female upon entry, and that they are also at the centre of a timing dispute involving two clocks, where one is said to have been 10 minutes faster than the other, or vice versa --- It stinks to high heaven, they are just telling lie after lie, they will lets their gobs say anything rather than have to admit the truth...

[Alias]

Surely, Mike, if June and the children had already been shot, Ralph would call for an ambulance and the police? What would be the point of calling Jeremy? How could he help once the shootings had begun?

... But you are forgeting that there are grounds for believing that Ralph did actually call the police, before he made the short call to Jeremy (discussed elsewhere)...

I find it hard to believe that Nevill would have had time to phone the police and Jeremy too if someone was running amok in his home with a rifle.

It is not recorded that Nevill ever phoned the police, only Jeremy's call to police is recorded reporting what his father allegedly said to him in a call some time earlier.

... Well, as you know - there is fresh information available which suggests that Ralph may have, or did make a separate call to the police. Yot only have to look at, why patrol car, CA07, was dispatched to the scene, before Jeremy contacted the police himself, to realize that the police were responding to a call for help, before police were even speaking to Jeremy. In addition to this, the person who called the police before Jeremy did, about this matter, identified the shooter, as 'his daughter', adding that 'daughter has got one of my gtns', and as you well know, Shiela was Ralphs daughter, and the weapon which is supposed to have fired all the bullets, was owned, amd it belonged to non other, than Ralph Bamber...

It DOES say in the log (as a quote of what the caller said), "My daughter".
That is puzzling. How could such a "misunderstanding" ocurr with Jeremy as the caller?

--------------------------

Let us also not forget that as a result of the earlier call (3:26am) the occupants of CA07 were dispatched to the scene, and that these were the officers who were also responsible for seeing a figure inside the farmhouse that they later claimed was nothing but a reflection of the moon on the glass of the bedroom window, and later still these were the very same officers who were responsible for relaying the messages from the scene about the discovery of two bodies inside the kitchen once police entered the building....

Odd that these very same officers are involved in all these contradictions and anomalies surrounding a figure that was seen at the bedroom window, and the fact that police found two bodies, one dead male and one dead female upon entry, and that they are also at the centre of a timing dispute involving two clocks, where one is said to have been 10 minutes faster than the other, or vice versa --- It stinks to high heaven, they are just telling lie after lie, they will lets their gobs say anything rather than have to admit the truth...

It is a bit like being in the Twilight Zone, where nothing makes much sense.
I never liked the two (convenient?) clocks.