Viva Les Differences

[lookout]

But surely, Lookout, they were Colin's memories of when they were together. They hadn't been together for years. From what you've told us, countless times, Sheila had been BRILLIANT at expressing herself verbally -I guess she felt she had to resort to throwing things because she didn't feel heard- it seems to me that it may have been Colin who shied away from confrontation.

I have no idea where the diaries were located -I don't imagine she took them everywhere but I'll allow for the possibility of a lockable 5 year diary- but if the police found them/it at WHF, HAD they contained suicidal thoughts, they'd have been a perfect counter-balance to the family's claims. If Jeremy had found them, for certain sure, he'd have handed them to the police. If they said what you're hoping, he very probably wouldn't be in prison now. However, if the relatives -according to you, nasty conniving people determined to do Jeremy out of his birthright- had found it/them, do you REALLY believe they'd have handed the police ANYTHING which suggested that Sheila MAY have committed such a crime, ESPECIALLY after allegedly going to all that trouble to frame Jeremy?

Let's not hide away from the fact that although certain memories etc had been shared by both Colin and Sheila as a couple, in the background were the damaging effects of June which Colin spoke quite frankly about in his book " if Sheila hadn't have killed her he would " not exactly words that you'd expect of a mild-mannered man. Which proves that if a mild Colin spoke in this way how Sheila would have done behind closed doors-------or inside a diary !!
Sheila, for once n her life would have felt empowered while brandishing a rifle and no doubt WOULD have been expressing her thoughts loudly that night.

NO amount of diaries would have influenced EP more than the relatives did. Because of their " knowledge " of " knowing Jeremy inside out " was far more plausible than a few scrawled-on pieces of paper in a diary EP gladly went along with them with SJ looking towards a promotion in doing so.


And a definite NO to the relatives handing in what they KNEW of the contents of the diaries.NEVER !!

[lookout]

BTW it was no trouble framing Jeremy------he was your typical " fall guy ".

[Jane]

Let's not hide away from the fact that although certain memories etc had been shared by both Colin and Sheila as a couple, in the background were the damaging effects of June which Colin spoke quite frankly about in his book " if Sheila hadn't have killed her he would " not exactly words that you'd expect of a mild-mannered man. Which proves that if a mild Colin spoke in this way how Sheila would have done behind closed doors-------or inside a diary !!
Sheila, for once n her life would have felt empowered while brandishing a rifle and no doubt WOULD have been expressing her thoughts loudly that night.

NO amount of diaries would have influenced EP more than the relatives did. Because of their " knowledge " of " knowing Jeremy inside out " was far more plausible than a few scrawled-on pieces of paper in a diary EP gladly went along with them with SJ looking towards a promotion in doing so.


And a definite NO to the relatives handing in what they KNEW of the contents of the diaries.NEVER !!

Lookout, as God is my witness, I've NEVER ,in my life, raised more than my voice, in anger, at anyone, yet there have been times without number that I've sworn I could/I'd like to kill someone. Please don't tell me you never have. You have created a Sheila -a Sheila you want her to be- that, I imagine few would recognize.

 First, it would be good to know who first found the diaries? Did they read them prior to handing them in. In this case, I'm fairly certain I would have. Then, I think you must make up your mind about the importance of these diaries. There seems to be some confusion. You now appear to be saying that whatever were the contents -even if they were irrefutable proof that Sheila was capable of murder/suicide- they handed them to the relatives at a time when they had no reason to believe she hadn't. Does that make any sense? What might make more sense is if the diaries said nothing of any consequence. Because of what seems to be a strong desire to point a finger EP/SJ/the relatives, you don't appear to have thought this through very clearly

[Caroline]

Diaries containing such content were also held from the trial of Eddie Gilfoyle, for 16 years during his sentence-----it took another two years before Merseyside police decided his release.
At least the police in Eddie's case kept hold of the diaries while no doubt knowing of their content, whereas EP couldn't get rid of them quick enough------particularly as Sheila's latter part of life had become a lot worse than at previous times.
This could well have become Jeremy's saving grace as proof that not all was well with Sheila.
Their destruction was criminal !! A very important aspect of the case as Sheila had felt more comfortable writing down her thoughts etc. than speaking them as lots of people, particularly victims of suicide are with their families left in disbelief that they'd been feeling as they had done when they'd thought that everything was fine.
How many families have been left in utter shock after realising the TRUE feelings of a suicide victim ??

The diaries haven't been withheld and Jeremy's legal team had copies.

[Jane]

The diaries haven't been withheld and Jeremy's legal team had copies.

Mmm. I think that when all the wished for possibilities are stripped away, however unacceptable, what remains is truth.

[lookout]

Lookout, as God is my witness, I've NEVER ,in my life, raised more than my voice, in anger, at anyone, yet there have been times without number that I've sworn I could/I'd like to kill someone. Please don't tell me you never have. You have created a Sheila -a Sheila you want her to be- that, I imagine few would recognize.

 First, it would be good to know who first found the diaries? Did they read them prior to handing them in. In this case, I'm fairly certain I would have. Then, I think you must make up your mind about the importance of these diaries. There seems to be some confusion. You now appear to be saying that whatever were the contents -even if they were irrefutable proof that Sheila was capable of murder/suicide- they handed them to the relatives at a time when they had no reason to believe she hadn't. Does that make any sense? What might make more sense is if the diaries said nothing of any consequence. Because of what seems to be a strong desire to point a finger EP/SJ/the relatives, you don't appear to have thought this through very clearly

Sheila was her own worst enemy. I've never written Sheila into " how I wanted her to be " ( what a strange suggestion ) she was a product of what this life is all about unless you hadn't noticed that nobody is cloned.
Whatever the girl did was overshadowed by her mother and so wasn't allowed to " be herself " . So many restrictions and put-downs during her times at WHF it was stifling.

I admit to raising my voice in the past------but NEVER EVER with a view to " murdering someone " That thought NEVER crossed my mind at any time. Killing/murdering wasn't in my vocabulary at all. Might have had something to do with the career I followed about saving lives, from the age of 16 onwards.

I don't know who found the diaries or where they were found but I can guess that the relatives would have been hunting high and low for them hoping they'd find them first----just in case !
The contents probably mirrored the notes which were found in Sheila's bedroom with perhaps more damning connotations of what went on between her mother and herself as deep down Sheila was a very angry person inside and to release her anger she wrote.


Perhaps someone else can elaborate on the diaries--------where/who found them.

[lookout]

My money would have gone on the " cold " relatives finding the diaries as they " found " everything else !!

They were probably in the bureau which they removed shortly after the murders------for" safe-keeping ".

[Jane]

Sheila was her own worst enemy. I've never written Sheila into " how I wanted her to be " ( what a strange suggestion ) she was a product of what this life is all about unless you hadn't noticed that nobody is cloned.
Whatever the girl did was overshadowed by her mother and so wasn't allowed to " be herself " . So many restrictions and put-downs during her times at WHF it was stifling.

I admit to raising my voice in the past------but NEVER EVER with a view to " murdering someone " That thought NEVER crossed my mind at any time. Killing/murdering wasn't in my vocabulary at all. Might have had something to do with the career I followed about saving lives, from the age of 16 onwards.

I don't know who found the diaries or where they were found but I can guess that the relatives would have been hunting high and low for them hoping they'd find them first----just in case !
The contents probably mirrored the notes which were found in Sheila's bedroom with perhaps more damning connotations of what went on between her mother and herself as deep down Sheila was a very angry person inside and to release her anger she wrote.


Perhaps someone else can elaborate on the diaries--------where/who found them.

 I can't see a Sheila who "was her own worst enemy"- she wasn't IN ANY WAY responsible for what was ingrained in her from her childhood- perhaps I should have extended "how you wanted her to be..........." to include ".............in relationship to Jeremy".

"NEVER EVER with a view to murdering some" is a very strange claim from one who'd bring back the death penalty, don't you think? I've confessed to have SAID, in the heat of the moment, that I could kill. They were simply words. Truth be told, I wouldn't know how. I guess it requires a rage I've, thus far, never been possessed of.

It's very necessary to know the truth of where, and by whom, the diaries were found, if only to eliminate fantasy hypotheses. Only when ALL such are eliminated -and there's a plethora of them- can it be said that what remains is truth.

[Jane]

My money would have gone on the " cold " relatives finding the diaries as they " found " everything else !!

They were probably in the bureau which they removed shortly after the murders------for" safe-keeping ".

It matters not a jot that the relatives don't come over as warm and nurturing. Any more than it matters that Jeremy was arrogant and supercilious. All it does is reveal something of their characters. If we hold that against one person we must treat others the same, surely?

So, if you're going to put money on the relatives finding the diaries, what do you think are the chances of them handing them over to the police without reading them? And if they revealed, as you hope they did, Sheila's suicidal proclivities and a desire to be rid of her family, do you truly believe, after all the effort you believe they put into framing Jeremy, they'd have presented the police with probable evidence of Sheila's culpability?

[Caroline]

My money would have gone on the " cold " relatives finding the diaries as they " found " everything else !!

They were probably in the bureau which they removed shortly after the murders------for" safe-keeping ".

They were in Sheila's flat - so wrong again!

[Jane]

They were in Sheila's flat - so wrong again!

So I guess that leaves Jeremy, Brett or the police, maybe Julie? to find them. If they said what supporters hope they did, Jeremy, Brett and Julie, who I'm certain would have read them, would surely have been falling over each other to get them to the police as fast as possible. However, ONE thing springs to my notice. Sheila clearly wasn't such an avid diary writer as we're led to believe, or she wouldn't have gone away for 4 nights without them.

[lookout]

I can't see a Sheila who "was her own worst enemy"- she wasn't IN ANY WAY responsible for what was ingrained in her from her childhood- perhaps I should have extended "how you wanted her to be..........." to include ".............in relationship to Jeremy".

"NEVER EVER with a view to murdering some" is a very strange claim from one who'd bring back the death penalty, don't you think? I've confessed to have SAID, in the heat of the moment, that I could kill. They were simply words. Truth be told, I wouldn't know how. I guess it requires a rage I've, thus far, never been possessed of.

It's very necessary to know the truth of where, and by whom, the diaries were found, if only to eliminate fantasy hypotheses. Only when ALL such are eliminated -and there's a plethora of them- can it be said that what remains is truth.

Brother and sister relationship is dictated by how the parents interact with their children. I would have said that Sheila and Jeremy had a good relationship so far as brotherly/sisterly love is concerned.

I was anticipating the death-penalty scenario------which is an entirely DIFFERENT mindset to that of whom one is familiar with, family friends etc. " Killing " as in above is for someone who doesn't want this normal way of life and who is out to destroy it. Most of those who are put to death have NO place in society and mean nothing to those victims families whose lives have been shattered and torn apart by a monster who doesn't want a normal life.

I DON'T class my remark as having any relevancy in my beliefs and those whose intentions are to kill will suffer the consequences. It's got NOTHING to do with how I view the word murder spoken in anger.

As for the diaries I've already surmised who found them simply because I have no trust in how the case as a whole was conducted from start to finish.

[Jane]

Brother and sister relationship is dictated by how the parents interact with their children. I would have said that Sheila and Jeremy had a good relationship so far as brotherly/sisterly love is concerned.

I was anticipating the death-penalty scenario------which is an entirely DIFFERENT mindset to that of whom one is familiar with, family friends etc. " Killing " as in above is for someone who doesn't want this normal way of life and who is out to destroy it. Most of those who are put to death have NO place in society and mean nothing to those victims families whose lives have been shattered and torn apart by a monster who doesn't want a normal life.

I DON'T class my remark as having any relevancy in my beliefs and those whose intentions are to kill will suffer the consequences. It's got NOTHING to do with how I view the word murder spoken in anger.

As for the diaries I've already surmised who found them simply because I have no trust in how the case as a whole was conducted from start to finish.

Totally off topic, but as it's my thread ...................... I have said I couldn't kill. I goes right across the board. It saddens me to say it, but I don't believe I'm capable of taking the life of someone terminally ill -I have been asked- so it's fitting that I can't condone the death penalty either. But I DO believe that life has to mean life.

Back to siblings, as in Sheila and Jeremy. You're quite correct in that it was dictated by their parents. NOT however by how they interacted with them, but how each child perceived that interaction and how they perceived their own place in it ie if one child perceived the other as getting more/better attention, it would become a breeding ground for sibling rivalry.

You've mentioned your lack of trust in the proceedings many times. Is this your fall-back? Caroline has told you where the diaries were located but from how you put it -"I've already surmised who found them because I have no trust...................from start to finish" it sounds very much like whatever is laid before you as truth -and there's no reason to think this isn't- if it doesn't fit with your stringent belief, you'll reject it, OR are you accepting that they were found in Sheila's flat?

[lookout]

Totally off topic, but as it's my thread ...................... I have said I couldn't kill. I goes right across the board. It saddens me to say it, but I don't believe I'm capable of taking the life of someone terminally ill -I have been asked- so it's fitting that I can't condone the death penalty either. But I DO believe that life has to mean life.

Back to siblings, as in Sheila and Jeremy. You're quite correct in that it was dictated by their parents. NOT however by how they interacted with them, but how each child perceived that interaction and how they perceived their own place in it ie if one child perceived the other as getting more/better attention, it would become a breeding ground for sibling rivalry.

You've mentioned your lack of trust in the proceedings many times. Is this your fall-back? Caroline has told you where the diaries were located but from how you put it -"I've already surmised who found them because I have no trust...................from start to finish" it sounds very much like whatever is laid before you as truth -and there's no reason to think this isn't- if it doesn't fit with your stringent belief, you'll reject it, OR are you accepting that they were found in Sheila's flat?

Your " life to mean life " is of no consolation to the families of victims of murder. It's THEY who suffer the life sentence !!

As for " taking the life of someone terminally ill " is an entirely different approach as their life is already taken by whatever ails them. It's a case of freeing the patient from the chronic pain they're suffering, or would you rather them be left screaming and dying in agony in front of you ?


The lack of trust falls within the visibly shoddy work of EP and forensics alike plus refusals of anything that showed Jeremy in a good light, such as the many testimonials by those who knew/know him. Handwritten statements which were altered or edited out. All documented.

[lookout]

Above all, that which remains hidden. Why the secrecy ? Is this justice and democracy ? I think not.