Author Topic: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th 1985  (Read 20342 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2018, 01:36:PM »
So you think David Boutflour found a telescopic sight twice, once on August 10th and again on September 11th and also identical batches of ammunition and stuff on two occasions. 

Your duplication theory does not work. The relatives did not find those same exhibits twice. How do you reconcile the statements of David Boutflour and DC Oakey?



1. David Boutflour found the silencer, telescopic sight and ammo in August.

2. He takes them to the Eaton Farm the same day.

3. Stan Jones collects the silencer from the Eaton farm a few days later.

4. The telecopic sight and ammo remain at Eatons farm.

5. In september Oakey then vists Eaton farm and collects the sight, ammo and the box that contained the silencer that DB found the month prior.

All in all your theory depends on poorly written paperwork. Furthermore it makes no logical sense. If the police were involved in an industrial scale and planted the silencer, There is no need for the relatives to even be in the picture. The police could stand up in court and say they found the silencer and it was all there credible honest detective work. Not give instructions to people who will be seen with suspicion due to the financial implications of a conviction.

I personally don't think the police even expected Jeremy to be found guilty. Its was merely a formality to resolve the accusations being made.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 01:37:PM by David1819 »

Offline Caroline

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2018, 06:12:PM »




SBJ/1----original murder/suicide documents.

Eh?
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Harry

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2018, 03:35:AM »
The fact that David Boutflour made his statement on September 12th strongly suggests that the whole performance of finding a silencer on September 11th (to be backdated in witness statements) was set up.

The police must have explained the purpose behind the deception. The relatives play acting shows they knew what the police required and what it was for. The way the relatives all make statements corroborating the finding on the 10th of August with each noticing the blood and paint on it and so on, shows that they willingly participated in the framing of Jeremy Bamber.

The fact that the statement recording the "finding" was ready to be signed only a day after it was found makes it seem likely that the plan involved telling the relatives to go to the farm on September 11th to collect items which had been deliberately left there by the police. The police must have explained the plan to the relatives. David Boutflour was to look in the gun cupboard and find a silencer along with other items with the exhibit references given above. Then he was to sign a statement dated September 12 claiming to have found those things on August 10th.

From the Statement of David Boutflour
Date September12  1985.

"On the Saturday or Sunday following the release of the key to White House Farm I went to the farm house with my sister Ann EATON. One of the reasons going to the farm was to help my sister clear up any mess.

I checked the firearms kept at the farm with the intention of removing items for safety purposes.

"I went to a cupboard under the stairs in the den. I found a cardboard box which contained 12 bore cartridges and about 200/3OO rounds of .22 ammunition all of which was low velocity ammunition.

Also in the box was a sound moderator for a .22 rifle. I picked up the sound moderator and saw what I believe to be blood on it. Also there was red paint or something similar on it as well. There was one quite deep scratch which.was bright and appeared to be new. There was a telescopic sight in its box, in the box as well. I took these items together with the other firearms to my sister's house. I later informed the Police of the finding of the telescopic sight and the sound moderator."

Three points

1 Police records show that the items referred to in this statement of David Boutflour were actually found on September 11th and collected on that day or shortly after. Talking about slack paperwork doesn't cut it, because there are several mutually corroborative documents involving several police officers including DS Davidson DI Wright and DC Oakey. So they all made the same mistakes! Who would really believe that?

2 The date of David Boutflour's statement September 12th is hugely significant, because it is just one day after the date when the silencer really was found. In this statement of  Bouflour and in a conveniently corroborative account given by Ann Eaton on the same day, September 12th, the finding of the silencer and other items at Whitehouse Farm are backdated to August 10th.

3 In the light of the above it should seem obvious that the plan to set up a finding of the silencer and other items and to backdate the story must have been thought up before the actual visit to the farm of the family members and Basil Cock. Before September 11th there would have been nothing to backdate.

But straight after the visit they all get cracking. David Boutflour and Ann Eaton both make statements in which they relate the events of the previous day, but backdate the story to August 10th.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 04:41:AM by Harry »

Offline Harry

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2018, 04:20:AM »
From the Statement of Ann Eaton, September 8th to 12th. The section below concerning events which allegedly took place on August 10th was recorded on September 12th, according to DS Davis who interviewed Ann Eaton.

 "Mr. COCK decided that he would need to speak to the farm secretary Barbara WILSON. He telephoned her and she agreed to come to the farm.
On arrival at the farm Barbara WILSON was very emotional and she conferred with Mr. COCK.

My father. David and I started to have a look around the house.

My brother David collected all the guns around the house so that we could take possession of them for safe keeping. This was on the authority of Mr Cock

My brother, DAVID. then went into the downstairs office and I stood in the doorway and saw David open the gun cupboard. He got onto his knees and he then checked the cupboard.

David then took out a silencer and a telescopic sight and a carrier bag of ammunition. David said to me that the silencer and telescopic sight belonged to the rifle which had killed the BAMBERS and the CAFFELL twins.

The items were put into the kitchen with other guns and ammunition ready to be conveyed to my house for safe keeping...."

Both Ann Eaton and David Boutflour are describing in their statements of September 12th events which actual happened only a day earlier, according to police records shown in previous posts.

It is notable that Ann Eaton mentions Basil Cock. According to Robert Boutflour, who was also there, Basil Cock was uninterested in the silencer, but expressed annoyance at the the fingerprint dust which was all around the house. Whitehouse Farm was not fingerprinted until after September 7th when the case became a murder investigation.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 05:09:AM by Harry »

Offline Harry

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2018, 05:20:AM »
He made the statement then because it was JUST after Bamber was arrested. What do you mean by "the statement recording the "finding" was ready to be signed only a day after it was found"?

Both David Boutflour and Ann Eaton made statements on September 12th which describe the events which occurred on the previous day when David found the silencer and other items.

The fact that they both signed fraudulent statements on September 12th, backdating the finding to August 10th should make it seem obvious that making those statements was part of plan hatched before the actual visit of the family to Whitehouse Farm on September 11th.

The idea, it would appear, was to create a real sequence of events, so that it would be easy for those prosecution witnesses to give accounts which were consistent with one another.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 05:29:AM by Harry »

Offline Harry

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2018, 05:49:AM »
1. David Boutflour found the silencer, telescopic sight and ammo in August.

2. He takes them to the Eaton Farm the same day.

3. Stan Jones collects the silencer from the Eaton farm a few days later.

4. The telecopic sight and ammo remain at Eatons farm.

5. In september Oakey then vists Eaton farm and collects the sight, ammo and the box that contained the silencer that DB found the month prior.

All in all your theory depends on poorly written paperwork. Furthermore it makes no logical sense. If the police were involved in an industrial scale and planted the silencer, There is no need for the relatives to even be in the picture. The police could stand up in court and say they found the silencer and it was all there credible honest detective work. Not give instructions to people who will be seen with suspicion due to the financial implications of a conviction.

I personally don't think the police even expected Jeremy to be found guilty. Its was merely a formality to resolve the accusations being made.

"All in all your theory depends on poorly written paperwork."

Talking about slack paperwork doesn't cut it, because there are several mutually corroborative documents involving several police officers including DS Davidson DI Wright and DC Oakey. So they all made the same mistakes! Who would really believe that?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 05:51:AM by Harry »

Offline Harry

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2018, 06:08:AM »
1. David Boutflour found the silencer, telescopic sight and ammo in August.

2. He takes them to the Eaton Farm the same day.

3. Stan Jones collects the silencer from the Eaton farm a few days later.

4. The telecopic sight and ammo remain at Eatons farm.

5. In september Oakey then vists Eaton farm and collects the sight, ammo and the box that contained the silencer that DB found the month prior.


I thought that you might try using that explanation, but it won't wash. To begin with it is not supported by any evidence. Such a delayed collection of the other items is in fact contradicted by police records

From the statement of DC Oakey dated October 25th 1985.

"At 1820 hours. on Wednesday, 11th September 1985, I was on duty, when I went to Oak Farm, Loamy Hill Road, Tolleshunt Major. I received from Mrs Ann Eaton one Nikko Stirling Telescopic Sight in box (Exhibit DRB/2 and an ABU carrier bag, containing seven boxes of fifty Eley Subsonic Hollowpoint .22 bullets and one empty .22 bullet box (Exhibit DRB/3)"

Other documents reveal the silencer was collected on September 11th along with other items. So you would need to argue that The Eatons kept all of that stuff, including the silencer, until September 11th. But then you would have a problem explaining how the silencer could have been sent to the laboratory on August 14th.


(Doc P31) Telephone Message Log 38, 11th September 1985 reads:
‘David Boutflour has found a silencer with blood on it’

(Doc P35) Action Report 88 reads: ‘Collection of silencer AE (Ann Eaton) 11th September to Wright items obtained by DC Oakey’

(Doc P34) Action Report 181 allocated to DS Davidson, 13th September 1985: “Examine the following for blood fibres and finger prints. 2/ cardboard box containing silencer and ammunition. 3/ Check silencer for fibres”

« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 06:21:AM by Harry »

Offline Adam

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2018, 08:38:AM »
There are several theories about the silencer. A lot put forward by Mike.

The official version is the family, BW & Basil Cock were at WHF when the silencer was found. It had the aga paint on, a white hair & blood on/in.

The police sent it for testing & it came back as Sheila's blood.

...............

Other people believe the police found & fabricated a silencer.  Then asked the relatives to lie in their WS's & say they found it when at WHF with BW & Basil Cock.

Not sure why the police would not simply say they found the silencer themselves.

...............

Others believe the relatives scratched the aga.

Not sure how they knew the kitchen crime scene photos did not contradict them & show an 'unscratched' aga. I doubt the photos had even been processed then.

The relatives also apparently already knew about back splatter. They got Sheila's blood from her underwear,  which was in a bucket of water. Then expertly inserted the blood into the silencer.

Not sure how the relatives knew Sheila's arm lenght, whether she received contact shots & if so whether the rifle nozzle already had her blood in.

...............

The official version is the only plausible version. 

« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 10:17:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2018, 08:49:AM »
I wouldn't mind but the silencer wasn't even given a mention in AE's first statement------------it became an afterthought when EP had nothing on JB.  Then everyone went to town.!

Offline David1819

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2018, 12:17:PM »
Three points

1 Police records show that the items referred to in this statement of David Boutflour were actually found on September 11th and collected on that day or shortly after. Talking about slack paperwork doesn't cut it, because there are several mutually corroborative documents involving several police officers including DS Davidson DI Wright and DC Oakey. So they all made the same mistakes! Who would really believe that?


No they do not. Police records show that Ann Eaton handed over DRB/2 and DRB/3 in on the 11th of September.

Any reasonable person would realise that DRB/2 and DRB/3 had been at the Eaton residence since David Boutflour brought them there on the 10th of August. Its written in DS Jones pocket book that he collected the silencer (DRB/1) at the Eaton Farm on the 12th of August. No mention of collecting DRB/2 and DRB/3. Which explains why the silencer appears on the early lab records and DRB/2 and DRB/3 do not. Because they remained at the Eaton farm as they were not considered important.


« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 12:39:PM by David1819 »

Offline David1819

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2018, 12:39:PM »
"All in all your theory depends on poorly written paperwork."

Talking about slack paperwork doesn't cut it, because there are several mutually corroborative documents involving several police officers including DS Davidson DI Wright and DC Oakey. So they all made the same mistakes! Who would really believe that?


Read it Action 181 carefully. "Cardboard box containing silencer & ammunition"


Its not a box containing a silencer. Its the now empty box that David Boutflour found the silencer in back in August.

Poorly written paperwork indeed.

Offline David1819

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2018, 12:56:PM »
Not sure how they knew the kitchen crime scene photos did not contradict them & show an 'unscratched' aga. I doubt the photos had even been processed then.


How do you explain the cut out film strips?

It's worth noting that back in 1985 the photos were developed manually not digitally. The origional photo bundles would unlikley show scratches unless they were focused on.

In 2011 the films were re-developed using modern computer methods. Back in 1985 there was no such thing as mega pixels ect.

If you showed me a 1985 photo showing the underside of the aga taken from the centre of the room. You probably would not notice any scratches even if they are there. Remember this would be a photo in my hand. Zooming in is not an option.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 01:06:PM by David1819 »

Offline Adam

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2018, 01:13:PM »
How do you explain the cut out film strips?

It's worth noting that back in 1985 the photos were developed manually not digitally. The origional photo bundles would unlikley show scratches unless they were focused on.

In 2011 the films were re-developed using modern computer methods. Back in 1985 there was no such thing as mega pixels ect.

If you showed me a 1985 photo showing the underside of the aga taken from the centre of the room. You probably would not notice any scratches even if they are there. Remember this would be a photo in my hand. Zooming in is not an option.

Cut out strips ? So the police were involved in the frame.

How would the relatives know the crime scene photos did not include close up pictures of the aga ?

The aga covered a big area.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 01:15:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline David1819

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2018, 01:27:PM »
How would the relatives know the crime scene photos did not have close up pictures of the aga ?

The aga covered a big area.

Why would the crime scene photographer take close up pictures of the underside of the mantle on the day of the murders? Furthermore that exact area was partially obscured by a jacket on the washing line. As far as I know the jacket was still on the line when the relatives entered the house . So it would be the least riskiest place to put the scratches. And lo and behold that's exactly were they are located!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 01:27:PM by David1819 »

Offline Adam

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Re: The Finding of the Silencer by David Boutflour on September 11th
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2018, 01:46:PM »
Why would the crime scene photographer take close up pictures of the underside of the mantle on the day of the murders? Furthermore that exact area was partially obscured by a jacket on the washing line. As far as I know the jacket was still on the line when the relatives entered the house . So it would be the least riskiest place to put the scratches. And lo and behold that's exactly were they are located!

How would the relatives know what was in front of the aga at the crime scene ?

The photograher would take lots of pictures all over the kitchen. Which would include the aga. Both close up & long shots.

The relatives would not risk scratching it. Espescially as they had scraped Sheila's period blood of her wet underwear.

Do you believe the police were involved in the frame ?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 01:57:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.