Author Topic: Is rational discussion possible?  (Read 6337 times)

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Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2018, 05:48:AM »



What a weak attitude !

The weak attitude is siding with one camp or the other without any rational basis for doing so.

Were you there at White House Farm on the night of the murders?  No, and given the nature of the case, you can't know what occurred.  Ergo, the very fact you adopt one position or another shows that you have fundamentally misunderstood the case - which is the very problem with this forum.  You can't rationally take a pro- or anti-Bamber view in this case, due to its nature.

Steve in one of his comments asserted that the sound moderator links Bamber forensically to the scene, but it doesn't.  Steve has been commenting here for years, yet he doesn't know the basics, whereas I have been commenting here for five minutes and I know more than he does.

Maybe you should pay more attention to my pleas for objectivity?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 05:57:AM by Luminous Wanderer »

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2018, 05:51:AM »
It's not entirely unexpected. You can't expect to set an agenda and expect everyone to run with it. There's no excuse for swearing or profanity either, except it marks you out as somebody not in control of your own thoughts or emotions.

That's not going to wash, Steve.  I've exposed your ignorance about this case, so we know that you're a fraud.

I've also demonstrated that Julie Mugford's evidence is not relevant.  This was at a time when most people commenting on here were going off down that tangent.  I've stopped that.

That's because I'm neutral and, unlike you, I don't pretend that I know things that I can't know.

Before I arrived here a short while ago, this forum was dead and pretty much the only posts were coming from Mike Tesko, and maybe Nigel.  I suspect you'd prefer that it returns to that state because like most anti-Bambers you don't want honest discussion about the case.

Offline lookout

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2018, 10:16:AM »
The weak attitude is siding with one camp or the other without any rational basis for doing so.

Were you there at White House Farm on the night of the murders?  No, and given the nature of the case, you can't know what occurred.  Ergo, the very fact you adopt one position or another shows that you have fundamentally misunderstood the case - which is the very problem with this forum.  You can't rationally take a pro- or anti-Bamber view in this case, due to its nature.

Steve in one of his comments asserted that the sound moderator links Bamber forensically to the scene, but it doesn't.  Steve has been commenting here for years, yet he doesn't know the basics, whereas I have been commenting here for five minutes and I know more than he does.

Maybe you should pay more attention to my pleas for objectivity?





Oh but I do understand the case------more so than you'd imagine and I can take whatever view of the case that I wish without your controlling attitude thank you very much.

Offline lookout

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2018, 11:28:AM »
BTW,it didn't take the relatives long to reach their conclusion did it--------and without the need for EP ? :o

Had they looked at the whys and wherefors of the case ? Of course not,so what's the difference in their prompt decision and mine ?

Offline nugnug

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2018, 11:36:AM »
i exept he may of done it but the evdence is tainted to say the least.


and very few people can prove there innocence 100 percent.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 11:37:AM by nugnug »

Offline lookout

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2018, 12:24:PM »
i exept he may of done it but the evdence is tainted to say the least.


and very few people can prove there innocence 100 percent.





There are the exceptions when it comes to 100% innocence though nugs.

Offline nugnug

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2018, 01:38:PM »




There are the exceptions when it comes to 100% innocence though nugs.

I only  know of about 2 cases in the uk were innocence was proved beyond doubt.

but then it shouldn't have to be.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 01:39:PM by nugnug »

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2018, 02:53:PM »
My interest is in the legal safety of Bamber's conviction. I believe that is the only issue that can be discussed.  Unfortunately, it seems that 99% of people disagree and believe in treating this case as an article of faith.  For that reason, I don't believe the blue or the red forums achieve anything - though I think for the most part the problems are being caused by the anti-Bamber camp.

I speak here as a neutral - I have no interest in deciding Bamber's guilt or innocence - but in my view, anti-Bamber people are inhibiting proper discussion of this case.  They are bringing a close-minded agenda into the Forum.

I do find assertions of Bamber's innocence objectionable enough, but at least I can have a reasonably sensible discussion with most pro-Bamber people here.

I've had enough.  I'm asking the administrators to delete my account and posts here.
We seem to have managed well enough until now, so much that you wish to join us. Incidentally I'm glad you're back ,despite you indicating at intervals various members' failings.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2018, 02:56:PM »
Where have I said you're not allowed to have an opinion,. you xxxxxxx xxxxx xxxxx?
You implied it in #21. We should be allowed to speculate on the motives of the various protagonists involved in the case, just as you speculate on the different scenarios in the sound moderator thread in post #245.

Incidentally there has been more use of the "f" word by you in the past few days than at any other time I can remember on the forum. It reflects far worse on you than the recipient, of that I am sure.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 03:00:PM by maggie »

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2018, 03:08:PM »
The weak attitude is siding with one camp or the other without any rational basis for doing so.

Were you there at White House Farm on the night of the murders?  No, and given the nature of the case, you can't know what occurred.  Ergo, the very fact you adopt one position or another shows that you have fundamentally misunderstood the case - which is the very problem with this forum.  You can't rationally take a pro- or anti-Bamber view in this case, due to its nature.

Steve in one of his comments asserted that the sound moderator links Bamber forensically to the scene, but it doesn't.  Steve has been commenting here for years, yet he doesn't know the basics, whereas I have been commenting here for five minutes and I know more than he does.

Maybe you should pay more attention to my pleas for objectivity?
I wonder if there's a formulation of words that we could all agree on. In your post #250 in the sound moderator thread you write:

Why would Jeremy stage Nevill's body?  In an attempt to exclude from evidence the moderator he had used in the killings, realising that a moderated gun in and of itself potentially implicates him, and also having realised at some point that Sheila could not kill herself with a moderated gun.  His error was in not understanding the forensic possibilities of the moderator. He puts the moderator back rather than taking it with him because he thinks the moderator will be missed. 

Whether you like it or not you have admitted that the sound moderator is classified in the forensic evidence category. Now I am perfectly prepared to admit that it is not the smoking gun the guilters are looking for and indeed many here deny its involvement in the crime. I thoroughly respect that view.

All I would say to you is that IF you believe the silencer was used by Jeremy and IF you believe that he left it in situ in the gun cupboard then I am entitled because of the purported telephone call from Nevill to himself to infer that the suspects are limited to two, namely Sheila or Jeremy. Therefore IF I rule out Sheila for many valid reasons I am entitled to say that as Sheila's blood was more likely present in the sound moderator than Robert Boutflour's (or anyone else's with Type A blood) then the sound moderator is a piece of forensic evidence which is incriminatory towards Jeremy.

I don't profess to know everything about the case, which is why I enjoy reading other members' opinions here. I might suggest that it is you who is trying to close off debate by framing it in paramaters that most of us here just do not accept.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 03:11:PM by Steve_uk »

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2018, 04:35:AM »
I wonder if there's a formulation of words that we could all agree on. In your post #250 in the sound moderator thread you write:

Why would Jeremy stage Nevill's body?  In an attempt to exclude from evidence the moderator he had used in the killings, realising that a moderated gun in and of itself potentially implicates him, and also having realised at some point that Sheila could not kill herself with a moderated gun.  His error was in not understanding the forensic possibilities of the moderator. He puts the moderator back rather than taking it with him because he thinks the moderator will be missed. 

Whether you like it or not you have admitted that the sound moderator is classified in the forensic evidence category. Now I am perfectly prepared to admit that it is not the smoking gun the guilters are looking for and indeed many here deny its involvement in the crime. I thoroughly respect that view.

All I would say to you is that IF you believe the silencer was used by Jeremy and IF you believe that he left it in situ in the gun cupboard then I am entitled because of the purported telephone call from Nevill to himself to infer that the suspects are limited to two, namely Sheila or Jeremy. Therefore IF I rule out Sheila for many valid reasons I am entitled to say that as Sheila's blood was more likely present in the sound moderator than Robert Boutflour's (or anyone else's with Type A blood) then the sound moderator is a piece of forensic evidence which is incriminatory towards Jeremy.

I don't profess to know everything about the case, which is why I enjoy reading other members' opinions here. I might suggest that it is you who is trying to close off debate by framing it in paramaters that most of us here just do not accept.

No, no, no, no....Again, with great respect, you've misunderstood me.  The point is that the evidence doesn't directly link Jeremy to the crime.  I realise that, in and of itself, this isn't very important.  I only attach significance to it in the sense of how I am reasoning the whole thing out.  In other words, I'm (provisionally) concluding that the lack of direct forensic evidence is of no relevance (which, if anything, leans in favour of the anti-Bamber position, though I would argue it's a neutral conclusion on the basis that, oddly enough, the Crown could actually have used the lack of forensics in support of their case).  Of course, you may find all that to be a statement of the obvious, but remember I am trying to delineate the issues here from a neutral perspective.  I'm not taking sides and I need to be able to think all this through as logically as my capabilities allow.

If I come across as frustrated and angry, it's because I am trying to understand this case from a neutral position and it is very frustrating when people want to 'take sides'.  I've explained why taking sides is completely unhelpful given the special features of this case.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 04:37:AM by Luminous Wanderer »

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2018, 04:35:AM »




Oh but I do understand the case------more so than you'd imagine and I can take whatever view of the case that I wish without your controlling attitude thank you very much.

You're just straw-manning, so I'll ignore you.

Offline lookout

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2018, 10:20:AM »
You're just straw-manning, so I'll ignore you.






Good ! Ditto.