Author Topic: Is rational discussion possible?  (Read 6360 times)

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Luminous Wanderer

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Is rational discussion possible?
« on: April 01, 2018, 12:24:PM »
I have now contributed to threads on both the 'red' forum and this forum.  Although I am strictly neutral on the question of Bamber's culpability, I think this forum is superior, partly because people are generally more polite and constructive here and the bias towards Bamber that exists here creates a better atmosphere and greater open-mindedness about the evidence.  The individuals associated with the 'red' forum come across as rather smug and insufferable.

However, I would argue that a rational discussion of this case is next-to-impossible on the web, and when it does occur, it can't be sustained for long before the My Side Is Right dogma creeps in - be it pro- or anti-Bamber - or somebody gets upset.  The reason for this is that human beings are not, on the whole, rational in the first place.  Most of us are hormonal, and very ego-driven and tribal, and we tend to want to 'take sides', and I suppose the criminal justice system in England reflects this structurally in that it is adversarial and not, per se, concerned with the truth and proofs but with who can 'win' an argument and 'persuade' the jury of their case. 

The way that that manifests on forums like this is that people make undisciplined arguments, assert things factually that aren't true facts and take sides in a discussion that ought to be concerned with establishing, variously, the truthfulness, legality or forensic integrity of a point.  For example, a dogmatic anti-Bamber poster on this Forum asserts that the blood evidence is absolutely Sheila's or, if not hers, then definitely Nevill's and June's, but that isn't necessarily the case.  That's not what the evidence says and confuses fact with expert opinion.  All opinions are assailable. 

Nigel, who posts on here, is fanatically pro-Bamber, but I can forgive him.  I don't blame people like Nigel and Mike who want to stand by Jeremy, and given the disadvantages that a defendant/appellant has under this system, I think it's admirable what you are doing.

It occurs to me that Jeremy Bamber's case is one of those that might have benefited more from the inquisitorial trial system that exists on the Continent, where an examining judge determines both law and fact, supervises the criminal investigation and sets out to determine the truth - analogous to the typical work of an English coroner.  I don't have any statistics to back this up, but my general impression is that adversarial justice systems seem to produce a greater number, and worse, miscarriages of justice than systems that concern themselves purely with establishing the truth. 

I have been quite impressed with the workings of the Portuguese criminal justice system during the McCann investigation and the way that police investigations are judicially-supervised.  That's not to take a view either way on the case itself - I don't - and I wouldn't say I was impressed with the competence of the actual investigation, but the Portuguese system seems to operate more fairly and carefully overall and seems less susceptible to intellectual tribalism, media influence and manufactured hysteria.  Just my opinion.

Where do we go from here?  My (layman's) view is that the pro-Bamber side of this needs to be ruthlessly focused on the points that are relevant to an appeal and not allow itself to be sidetracked by non-probative issues.  For this Forum, it would probably help if one of us could draw up a list of the points that are thought to bring the conviction into doubt, and we can then whittle that down to the most promising two or three.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 12:27:PM by Luminous Wanderer »

Offline Nigel

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2018, 12:27:PM »
I have now contributed to threads on both the 'red' forum and this forum.  Although I am strictly neutral on the question of Bamber's culpability, I think this forum is superior, partly because people are generally more polite and constructive here and the bias towards Bamber that exists here creates a better atmosphere and greater open-mindedness about the evidence.  The individuals associated with the 'red' forum come across as rather smug and insufferable.

However, I would argue that a rational discussion of this case is next-to-impossible on the web, and when it does occur, it can't be sustained for long before the My Side Is Right dogma creeps in - be it pro- or anti-Bamber - or somebody gets upset.  The reason for this is that human beings are not, on the whole, rational in the first place.  Most of us are hormonal, and very ego-driven and tribal, and we tend to want to 'take sides', and I suppose the criminal justice system in England reflects this structurally in that it is adversarial and not, per se, concerned with the truth and proofs but with who can 'win' an argument and 'persuade' the jury of their case. 

The way that that manifests on forums like this is that people make undisciplined arguments, assert things factually that aren't true facts and take sides in a discussion that ought to be concerned with establishing, variously, the truthfulness, legality or forensic integrity of a point.  For example, a dogmatic anti-Bamber poster on this Forum asserts that the blood evidence is absolutely Sheila's or, if not hers, then definitely Nevill's and June's, but that isn't necessarily the case.  That's not what the evidence says and confuses fact with expert opinion.  All opinions are assailable. 

Nigel, who posts on here, is fanatically pro-Bamber, but I can forgive him.  I don't blame people like Nigel and Mike who want to stand by Jeremy, and given the disadvantages that a defendant/appellant has under this system, I think it's admirable what you are doing.

It occurs to me that Jeremy Bamber's case is one of those that might have benefited more from the inquisitorial trial system that exists on the Continent, where an examining judge determines both law and fact, supervises the criminal investigation and sets out to determine the truth - analogous to the typical work of an English coroner.  I don't have any statistics to back this up, but my general impression is that adversarial justice systems seem to produce a greater number, and worse, miscarriages of justice than systems that concern themselves purely with establishing the truth. 

I have been quite impressed with the workings of the Portuguese criminal justice system during the McCann investigation and the way that police investigations are judicially-supervised.  That's not to take a view either way on the case itself - I don't - and I wouldn't say I was impressed with the competence of the actual investigation, but the system seems to operate more fairly and carefully overall and seems less susceptible to intellectual tribalism, media influence and manufactured hysteria.  Just my opinion.

Where do we go from here?  My (layman's) view is that the pro-Bamber side of this needs to be ruthlessly focused on the points that are relevant to an appeal and not allow itself to be sidetracked by non-probative issues.  For this Forum, it would probably help if one of us could draw up a list of the points that are thought to bring the conviction into doubt, and we can then whittle that down to the most promising two or three.

"Nigel, who posts on here, is fanatically pro-Bamber, but I can forgive him"


Do not patronise me.
I slow down for a speeding police car, don't you?

6.01pm on Friday 6th September 1985 'Part 2' of the case began.

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2018, 12:31:PM »

"Nigel, who posts on here, is fanatically pro-Bamber, but I can forgive him"


Do not patronise me.

Sorry, but it is true.  Patronising or not.  You are every bit as dogmatic as Adam is.  Therefore, no rational discussion is possible.

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2018, 12:36:PM »
NEVER

COMPARE ME TO  ADAM666

Nigel, I'm sorry, you are not in a position to tell me what to do and what not to do.

I form my own impressions and you absolutely are the mirror image of Adam.  He is dogmatic and so are you.  Both of you are, ultimately, immune to reason and facts.  Both of you have lied or distorted things.  You are the type of people who cause miscarriages of justice, because you don't respect the truth.  I've explained above of course that, in fairness, this is partly due to the way the system works.

Sorry to be patronising - but that's what I think, Nigel!

Offline nugnug

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2018, 12:45:PM »
probably not its a very long time since ive had one on here.

Offline Nigel

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2018, 12:47:PM »
probably not its a very long time since ive had one on here.

Wake up, its happening!
I slow down for a speeding police car, don't you?

6.01pm on Friday 6th September 1985 'Part 2' of the case began.

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2018, 12:47:PM »
I think I read around this (very smart).

However please provide truth for me. re: BOLD

Just keep posting crap and proving my point.  This case can't be discussed rationally due to the evident fact that most people can't transcend simple human nature.

Your support for Jeremy Bamber is admirable - not patronising, just a compliment - but I'm not interested in flag-waving and taking sides, so please, don't patronise me, and stop condescending to me and telling me that I'm supposed to know things that can't possibly be known or accept assertions for which you have delivered no proofs.

Offline Nigel

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2018, 12:52:PM »
Just keep posting crap and proving my point.  This case can't be discussed rationally due to the evident fact that most people can't transcend simple human nature.

Your support for Jeremy Bamber is admirable - not patronising, just a compliment - but I'm not interested in flag-waving and taking sides, so please, don't patronise me, and stop condescending to me and telling me that I'm supposed to know things that can't possibly be known or accept assertions for which you have delivered no proofs.
not 'flag waving' at all. whats your problem?

maybe you should spend more time in SLOANE SQUARE, checking out the FACTS.
I slow down for a speeding police car, don't you?

6.01pm on Friday 6th September 1985 'Part 2' of the case began.

Offline Adam

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2018, 02:57:PM »
Just keep posting crap and proving my point.  This case can't be discussed rationally due to the evident fact that most people can't transcend simple human nature.

Your support for Jeremy Bamber is admirable - not patronising, just a compliment - but I'm not interested in flag-waving and taking sides, so please, don't patronise me, and stop condescending to me and telling me that I'm supposed to know things that can't possibly be known or accept assertions for which you have delivered no proofs.

You're posts are long but don't say much in you're attempt to remain impartial.

Supporters arguments are extremely weak & with the exception of Mike, sources are never supplied. However at least it is interesting seeing the latest reason why Bamber is innocent.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline buddy

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2018, 03:07:PM »
Blimey Adam you are one to talk about loooooong posts.

Offline JackieD

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2018, 03:45:PM »
Just keep posting crap and proving my point.  This case can't be discussed rationally due to the evident fact that most people can't transcend simple human nature.

Your support for Jeremy Bamber is admirable - not patronising, just a compliment - but I'm not interested in flag-waving and taking sides, so please, don't patronise me, and stop condescending to me and telling me that I'm supposed to know things that can't possibly be known or accept assertions for which you have delivered no proofs.

Peoples opinions on Jeremy Bamber and if this case is a miscarriage of justice are quite straightforward

Can you believe Julie Mugford or not when it has been accepted she was a prolific liar

Do you believe the tampered silencer evidence?

There is no evidence of phone calls either way

You have to make your mind up was Jeremy a cold bloodied killer although it was know he hated blood sports

Who tried to mislead the jury and benefitted from Jeremy’s conviction? A family that would never have benefitted from the Bamber fortunes

Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline Roch

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2018, 07:28:PM »
I have now contributed to threads on both the 'red' forum and this forum.  Although I am strictly neutral on the question of Bamber's culpability, I think this forum is superior, partly because people are generally more polite and constructive here and the bias towards Bamber that exists here creates a better atmosphere and greater open-mindedness about the evidence.  The individuals associated with the 'red' forum come across as rather smug and insufferable.

That's a fair summary.  I glanced at your posts and the predictable responses over there, wondering why you chose to start there.  I wondered whether you would venture here and reasoned that if you did, it would soon become apparent to you that this is the better forum (for this particular case).
   

Offline Roch

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2018, 07:41:PM »
Where do we go from here?  My (layman's) view is that the pro-Bamber side of this needs to be ruthlessly focused on the points that are relevant to an appeal and not allow itself to be sidetracked by non-probative issues.  For this Forum, it would probably help if one of us could draw up a list of the points that are thought to bring the conviction into doubt, and we can then whittle that down to the most promising two or three.

The evidence available on the forum has been 'done to death'.  The case has progressed behind the scenes and beyond the reach of the forum.  Therefore to some extent, the evidence available to the forum is outdated. I personally don't think the system plays fair in this case: therefore I doubt even if strong exculpatory evidence was available to the defence, it would necessarily lead to the conviction being over-turned.   To me it looks like they're determined to keep him in prison on technicalities - the opposite of what is claimed by the rabid brigade on the red.

Offline David1819

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2018, 09:12:PM »
The evidence available on the forum has been 'done to death'.  The case has progressed behind the scenes and beyond the reach of the forum.  Therefore to some extent, the evidence available to the forum is outdated. I personally don't think the system plays fair in this case: therefore I doubt even if strong exculpatory evidence was available to the defence, it would necessarily lead to the conviction being over-turned.   To me it looks like they're determined to keep him in prison on technicalities - the opposite of what is claimed by the rabid brigade on the red.

It does not matter if its outdated. Its still part of the jigsaw.

There are some practical experiments I would like to carry out. But I don't have the apparatus needed.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Is rational discussion possible?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2018, 11:51:AM »
I have now contributed to threads on both the 'red' forum and this forum.  Although I am strictly neutral on the question of Bamber's culpability, I think this forum is superior, partly because people are generally more polite and constructive here and the bias towards Bamber that exists here creates a better atmosphere and greater open-mindedness about the evidence.  The individuals associated with the 'red' forum come across as rather smug and insufferable.

However, I would argue that a rational discussion of this case is next-to-impossible on the web, and when it does occur, it can't be sustained for long before the My Side Is Right dogma creeps in - be it pro- or anti-Bamber - or somebody gets upset.  The reason for this is that human beings are not, on the whole, rational in the first place.  Most of us are hormonal, and very ego-driven and tribal, and we tend to want to 'take sides', and I suppose the criminal justice system in England reflects this structurally in that it is adversarial and not, per se, concerned with the truth and proofs but with who can 'win' an argument and 'persuade' the jury of their case

The way that that manifests on forums like this is that people make undisciplined arguments, assert things factually that aren't true facts and take sides in a discussion that ought to be concerned with establishing, variously, the truthfulness, legality or forensic integrity of a point.  For example, a dogmatic anti-Bamber poster on this Forum asserts that the blood evidence is absolutely Sheila's or, if not hers, then definitely Nevill's and June's, but that isn't necessarily the case.  That's not what the evidence says and confuses fact with expert opinion.  All opinions are assailable. 

Nigel, who posts on here, is fanatically pro-Bamber, but I can forgive him.  I don't blame people like Nigel and Mike who want to stand by Jeremy, and given the disadvantages that a defendant/appellant has under this system, I think it's admirable what you are doing.

It occurs to me that Jeremy Bamber's case is one of those that might have benefited more from the inquisitorial trial system that exists on the Continent, where an examining judge determines both law and fact, supervises the criminal investigation and sets out to determine the truth - analogous to the typical work of an English coroner.  I don't have any statistics to back this up, but my general impression is that adversarial justice systems seem to produce a greater number, and worse, miscarriages of justice than systems that concern themselves purely with establishing the truth. 

I have been quite impressed with the workings of the Portuguese criminal justice system during the McCann investigation and the way that police investigations are judicially-supervised.  That's not to take a view either way on the case itself - I don't - and I wouldn't say I was impressed with the competence of the actual investigation, but the Portuguese system seems to operate more fairly and carefully overall and seems less susceptible to intellectual tribalism, media influence and manufactured hysteria.  Just my opinion.

Where do we go from here?  My (layman's) view is that the pro-Bamber side of this needs to be ruthlessly focused on the points that are relevant to an appeal and not allow itself to be sidetracked by non-probative issues.  For this Forum, it would probably help if one of us could draw up a list of the points that are thought to bring the conviction into doubt, and we can then whittle that down to the most promising two or three.
The problem with the Continental system is that it's far too slow, the juge d'instruction has dozens of cases to investigate at any one time and as there's no habeas corpus the temptation is just to slap somebody in jail and let them rot until release or trial. I wasn't particularly impressed with the McCann investigation, where Police were slow off the mark but quick to make the couple arguidos on flimsy if any real evidence of involvement.

The downside to the adversarial system is that when Police do get it wrong as in the Stephen Dowling case they will be dragged kicking and screaming before they admit to any mistake, the Establishment holding firm until those involved in the original investigation have long since retired.

In both systems more public money should be spent on the pursuit of justice to level out the playing field between those defendants who have access to the best legal representation and those who do not.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 11:52:AM by Steve_uk »