Author Topic: mugford rwb and the order of death.  (Read 42459 times)

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Offline maggie

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #195 on: October 14, 2017, 05:48:PM »
If Sheila did it, what we don't know is if she intended to kill everyone, including herself. Maybe one killing led to another in her mind.
If Sheila did it I would imagine she was out of control in some way although not necessarily raging around in an obvious psychotic state.  It may have started small and become a roller coaster.

Offline David1819

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #196 on: October 14, 2017, 05:49:PM »
If Sheila did it, what we don't know is if she intended to kill everyone, including herself. Maybe one killing led to another in her mind.


There are three motives that overlap

Motive A) Believes the twins are possessed by the devil, Hatred against June, and also wants to end her life. No known hatred for Neville however in the house he is an obstacle that needs to be eliminated in order to kill June, the twins and herself.

Motive B) The threat of having her children taken away from her combined with her parents suggesting and supporting the idea. This creates the motive for altruistic filicide and could also create a dislike of Neville.

Motive C) She could also have killed the twins in an act of what is know as spouse revenge filicide. Wanting to make Colin suffer for one reason or another by killing the children.



Mothers, particularly, are the group with the highest risk
of becoming victims of homicide by patients with schizophrenia
(Devaux et al., 1974; Estroff et al., 1998; McKnight
et al., 1966). In this study, the rate of matricide was also
higher than the rate of patricide, and female sex of the victim
was a significant factor that raised the risk of parricide
20-fold. Raising a child is primarily the mother’s responsibility
and they are the caregivers who spend the most time
with the patients. Thus, they play major roles in forcing
medications, forcing hospitalisations, and providing discipline.
In this process, long-term conflicts between mothers
and patients can occur, and mothers can be direct targets of
longstanding delusional ideas of persecution or paranoid
ideation or both.

source- Clinical features of parricide in
patients with schizophrenia (2008)



All of the women in the NGRI group described psychotic motivations for
their murders. Common themes included the delusional conviction that the
child was defective or monstrous in some way (such as possessed by Satan, or
half human and half dog), hallucinatory commands to kill the child, and the
idea that the child could be saved from disaster (fates such as being raped,
becoming a prostitute, or undergoing torture) only through death. In contrast,
the women found CR described a variety of nonpsychotic motives. Two of the
eight (25 percent) indicated that the child was simply unwanted; three (37 percent)
asserted that the child died by accident, in the course of a beating; one
(13 percent) reported that the child died after an accidental fall; and two (25
percent) blamed another for the death
.

source- Insanity and Filicide: Women Who Murder Their Children
Carol E. Holden, Andrea Stephenson Burland, Craig A. Lemme




In this case, the reasons for attempted suicide and extended
filicide seem to be two: (1) altruistic in the light of concern
about the welfare of the children and (2) spouse revenge in
the background of marital problems and infidelity, and intent
to induce pain, sorrow, and guilt in the husband by taking
away children. The demographic characteristics and the
background history are similar to common features reported
in the literature such as lack of social support, primary care
giver status, and relationship problems between the couple.
The reasons for not giving any hint may be spousal infidelity,
wanting to take revenge, depression, and lack of knowledge
about availability of help.[6?8
[/color]
Source - Filicide as a part of extended suicide: An experience of psychotherapy with
the survivor. M. Manjula, C. R. Chandrasheka


"Her complaints during her prior hospitalizations included command hallucinations
(which told her to kill herself), depression, agitation, and paranoid
delusional ideation. She was being followed by Community Mental Health and
was taking antipsychotic medication at the time of the murder.
The defendant was evaluated on the issue of legal insanity approximately
five months after the murder. At this time, she described the voices as suggesting
that she kill her daughter and indicating that her daughter would be
better off and happier dead."



Insanity and Filicide: Women Who Murder Their Children.  American Journal of psychiatry. Published in 1996.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 05:56:PM by David1819 »

Offline lookout

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #197 on: October 14, 2017, 05:50:PM »
If Sheila did it I would imagine she was out of control in some way although not necessarily raging around in an obvious psychotic state.  It may have started small and become a roller coaster.






This is how I see it Maggie.

Offline Jane

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #198 on: October 14, 2017, 05:51:PM »
but she dident hate her children ethere so does that one work out.

so people she shoot her children but not a dog why would they believe that.

Because it was designed to look as if A) she'd gone mad and shot them all B) she shot her parents because they were allegedly going to arrange foster care for the children and she allegedly shot the children so no one else would have them. She wasn't concerned about the dog but it wasn't hers so it didn't matter.

Offline lookout

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #199 on: October 14, 2017, 05:55:PM »
Forget the dog, Lookout. Jeremy did. Yes, Jeremy hated it. I'm certain that had he not cared about getting caught he happily have shot it but in order for it to look as if Sheila had been responsible, he had to let it live because Sheila didn't hate it.







That doesn't make sense at all.

Online nugnug

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #200 on: October 14, 2017, 06:17:PM »
Because it was designed to look as if A) she'd gone mad and shot them all B) she shot her parents because they were allegedly going to arrange foster care for the children and she allegedly shot the children so no one else would have them. She wasn't concerned about the dog but it wasn't hers so it didn't matter.

so people will belive shes mad enough to kill her family but not a pet that makes avslutly no sense at all.

Offline Jane

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #201 on: October 14, 2017, 06:26:PM »
so people will belive shes mad enough to kill her family but not a pet that makes avslutly no sense at all.


Well now, Nugs. Let's look at what the dog might have been doing. Might it have been nipping at ankles/biting at heels/yapping/snarling/howling -generally making a nuisance of itself- difficult one for Jeremy as he hated it but he'd have focused on what he thought Sheila would have done. OR might it just have slunk out the way? Should such have been the case, why would you think it SO important for the killer to hunt it out and shoot it? What makes no sense to you doesn't necessarily make no sense to others.

Offline lookout

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #202 on: October 14, 2017, 06:34:PM »
The dog hadn't posed a threat to Sheila.

Whereas her parents had by talking about fostering for her boys,and she'd killed her boys because she'd wanted them with her.

Offline Adam

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #203 on: October 14, 2017, 06:39:PM »
What would be interesting is where was the dog put every night.

Did it sleep behind closed bedroom doors with Nevill & June. Or put into a separate room behind a shut door ?

I doubt it would be allowed to roam around WHF farm all night while everyone slept.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #204 on: October 14, 2017, 06:41:PM »
All that is known is Crispy was found cowering underneath a bed when the police arrived.

Bamber didn't want it as it would mess up his stereo equipment & suggested it be put down.

He later suggested to the police Crispy fired the second shot into Sheila.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 06:46:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #205 on: October 14, 2017, 06:46:PM »
Bamber wouldn't be interested in Crispy. He was an inheritance killer.

Sheila would have fired shots at Crispy if Crispy was aggravating her more by barking or jumping around her. Or both. 

Sheila was aggravated enough to kill June, Nicholas & Daniel & all they were doing was sleeping.

The evidence shows Sheila  did not fire any shots at crispy. Which is interesting.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 06:47:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #206 on: October 14, 2017, 07:27:PM »
The dog hadn't posed a threat to Sheila.

Whereas her parents had by talking about fostering for her boys,and she'd killed her boys because she'd wanted them with her.
I always saw June and Nevill's relationship with their children as a balancing act: Sheila was given the flat at Maida Vale but minimal financial assistance, whereas Jeremy had a less glamorous cottage but a salary with the expectation that he would inherit the Farm. Given this I don't see that there was any malicious intent in inviting their daughter and grandsons down for the week, certainly not issuing an ultimatum which would have been further detrimental to her health.

Offline lookout

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #207 on: October 14, 2017, 07:40:PM »
Do we know when/if,as a family,Sheila,Colin and the twins had a holiday together ?

Offline Jane

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #208 on: October 14, 2017, 07:46:PM »
I always saw June and Nevill's relationship with their children as a balancing act: Sheila was given the flat at Maida Vale but minimal financial assistance, whereas Jeremy had a less glamorous cottage but a salary with the expectation that he would inherit the Farm. Given this I don't see that there was any malicious intent in inviting their daughter and grandsons down for the week, certainly not issuing an ultimatum which would have been further detrimental to her health.

Steve, I really don't think there was any more to the village than Grandma and Grandpa seeing the boys -and probably slipping them some pocket money- before their father took them on holiday.

Offline Jane

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #209 on: October 14, 2017, 07:49:PM »
Do we know when/if,as a family,Sheila,Colin and the twins had a holiday together ?

It's one of the numerous things we don't know. It sounds highly likely that there were holidays at the farm with Sheila and holidays with Colin anywhere other. There would have been no reason for Sheila and Colin to holiday together.