The Bible

[Kaldin]

Is it at all possible that the Bible was originally placed on June's body and that's how the blood got there? Then the killer changed their mind, picked up the Bible and closed it.

[Roch]

I wouldn't have thought so, but I could be wrong.

Re the possible palm.. found it:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4295.msg175756.html#msg175756

[lookout]

I don't suppose anyone checked to see if there traces of blood in a sink did they? It's not impossible that Sheila could have washed her hands at some point.

I'm not sure,but I think I read that the drains had been checked. 

[Kaldin]

Re the possible palm.. found it:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4295.msg175756.html#msg175756

That is amazing, and it does look very much like the blood stain. Caroline said she painted her whole hand though, so did she try to pick up the pad without leaving blood on the other side? We know that Bible was shut at some point and then opened again, so wouldn't there be finger prints in blood on the cover of the Bible?

[Roch]

That is amazing, and it does look very much like the blood stain. Caroline said she painted her whole hand though, so did she try to pick up the pad without leaving blood on the other side? We know that Bible was shut at some point and then opened again, so wouldn't there be finger prints in blood on the cover of the Bible?

Good question - I do not know the answer.  But here's another question.  If you were attempting to prosecute somebody for the killings - why would you not include the bible evidence (palm etc.) within the context of the evidence for that morning's events?

Did you also notice it is effectively Psalm print as well as palm print? 

[lookout]

I remember having a problem with that Bible because it didn't appear to be as " worn and dog-eared " as the one on the murder pics ?

[Kaldin]

Good question - I do not know the answer.  But here's another question.  If you were attempting to prosecute somebody for the killings - why would you not include the bible evidence (palm etc.) within the context of the evidence for that morning's events?

Did you also notice it is effectively Psalm print as well as palm print?

I would certainly have drawn attention to the issue of the Bible resting slightly on top of her arm, yes. I'm not sure I would have introduced the alleged palm print because that would create the difficulty of how it got there. If Jeremy had pressed Sheila's palm on the Bible, there would have been blood on her palm. If they had claimed it was Jeremy's palm print, that would mean he wasn't wearing gloves and his fingerprints would have been found elsewhere.

[Adam]

107. The appellant reported that MacDonald had said that everything had been done as instructed but there had been a bit of a struggle with the appellant's father. He said MacDonald had told him, "for an old man he was very strong and put up a fight" and that MacDonald had then become angry and shot seven bullets into Nevill Bamber.

The appellant said that Sheila Caffell had been told to lie down and shoot herself last. He said that MacDonald had then placed a Bible on her chest to make it look as though she had killed in some sort of religious mania. The appellant said the children were shot in their sleep and so they had not felt anything and there was no pain. He told Julie Mugford that MacDonald had been paid £2,000 for the killings.

[Roch]

I would certainly have drawn attention to the issue of the Bible resting slightly on top of her arm, yes. I'm not sure I would have introduced the alleged palm print because that would create the difficulty of how it got there. If Jeremy had pressed Sheila's palm on the Bible, there would have been blood on her palm. If they had claimed it was Jeremy's palm print, that would mean he wasn't wearing gloves and his fingerprints would have been found elsewhere.

I appreciate the candid reasoning in your answer.  However is that not tantamount to saying that the palm print should be concealed from the court / jury etc. because it is possible unhelpful to the prosecution?

In real terms - that is concealing a factual aspect of what took place that night. 

[guest2181]

I would certainly have drawn attention to the issue of the Bible resting slightly on top of her arm, yes. I'm not sure I would have introduced the alleged palm print because that would create the difficulty of how it got there. If Jeremy had pressed Sheila's palm on the Bible, there would have been blood on her palm. If they had claimed it was Jeremy's palm print, that would mean he wasn't wearing gloves and his fingerprints would have been found elsewhere.

Is the fingerprints an issue? His prints would be all over the house anyway. And he said he handled the rifle the previous evening.

I think wearing gloves might make loading and firing the rifle difficult.

[Adam]

416.

The fact that the defence made no play of the Bible's pages may very well have something to do with another aspect of the matter. The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body.

As already observed the Bible must have been shut whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot.

These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial.

[Kaldin]

I appreciate the candid reasoning in your answer.  However is that not tantamount to saying that the palm print should be concealed from the court / jury etc. because it is possible unhelpful to the prosecution?

In real terms - that is concealing a factual aspect of what took place that night.

Yes, I suppose it is. If it's a palm print, then the prosecution would have a hard time explaining how it got there. They couldn't have claimed it was from Sheila, and they couldn't really claim it was from Jeremy either. However, they could have claimed the blood came from the floor and that it was Sheila's blood, which would go in their favour.

Were the defence not aware of the Bible at all at the time of the trial?

[David1819]

416.

The fact that the defence made no play of the Bible's pages may very well have something to do with another aspect of the matter. The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body.

As already observed the Bible must have been shut whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot.

These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial.

 
This is from the 2002 appeal. Fresh evidence of the police noting the bible was moved renders this lapsed

[Kaldin]

Is the fingerprints an issue? His prints would be all over the house anyway. And he said he handled the rifle the previous evening.

I think wearing gloves might make loading and firing the rifle difficult.

They would have been on the phone, unless he wiped it. Did they test the phone for fingerprints? I'm surprised there weren't more of his prints on the gun actually.

[Kaldin]

 
This is from the 2002 appeal. Fresh evidence of the police noting the bible was moved renders this lapsed

They're making quite an assumption that - that the Bible was put there after Sheila was shot.