The Bible

[lookout]

Must be different when it's done to me then  That figures.

[Caroline]

Yes - I read that her family moved in later. She must be pretty tough.

4 years later.

[Harry]

I see no reason why they would want to conceal the bloodstain. However, if the blood stain on the Bible came from that stain, that's not coincidence. That's why it's important to know where the blood stain came from in the first place.

Caroline has proven that the stain on the bible did not come from the carpet. The stain is on the wrong side for that.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4616.msg191520.html#msg191520

"So, IF it was placed there by Jeremy just after shooting Sheila the pool of blood would have to be wet at the time it was placed there - so why is there no stain on the page that would have been face down on top of the blood? The stain MUST have been dry when the bible was placed there and as such could not have been placed there by Jeremy Bamber."



At the red forum Myster showed that the bible is open at a different page on the floor to the one which shows the stains.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?PHPSESSID=rt32johmi44hdos93lvd0a3171&topic=7970.msg386328#msg386328

"The bible in the crime scene photo is not open at the pages which are bloodstained (656-657). Look at the difference between that photo and the recent one using a new identical copy of the bible. The original bible is opened towards the end of the book, whereas (stained) pages 656-657 of the copy are in the middle of the book. Easily recognised by looking at the spine in both photos."


An interesting question is how do these two points relate to each other. Caroline made the point that the bible must have been put over the stain when it was dry, otherwise there would be a stain on the left hand page. But at that stage she appears not to have have been aware of Myster's point, that it is not only true that the stain is on the wrong side, but also that the bible on the floor is clearly open at different pages.

If the bible was put in the position in which it appears in the photographs by Jeremy Bamber, the blood stain on the carpet would have been still wet when he put it there. So it would have made a stain at different pages where it was open, not the ones where we see the stains.

Caroline's point as I understand it is that the blood must have been already dry when it was put there, otherwise there would have been an independent stain on the the left side page as opposed to faint mirror stains. But taking into account Myster's argument, there would have to have been stained pages we have never been shown, that is stains on the pages at which the bible on the floor is open at in the crime scene photographs.



In the above photograph, you can see that the bible is partly covering the stain on the carpet. It looks like it was put there when the blood was dry. The top of the pages where the bible is resting don't appear to be stained at all. But if there are other stained pages why have the police not disclosed the fact.

The bible must have been put there by the police when the blood was dry.

[Adam]

The only interesting thing from the bible discussion yesterday was that the bible is on top of Sheila's arm. It was impossible for this to happen after Sheila shot herself. Therefore Bamber put the bible there.

[Harry]

The only interesting thing from the bible discussion yesterday was that the bible is on top of Sheila's arm. It was impossible for this to happen after Sheila shot herself. Therefore Bamber put the bible there.

Look at Caroline's demonstration.



And that of Myster



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0htaXAG8QT8

[Kaldin]

Hi Harry.

There are two different issues relating to what you posted.

Firstly, the stain being on the wrong page. The Bible could have been put face down on the stain and then moved by either Jeremy or Sheila. We know that it was shut at some point and then opened again, so it could have been put back down in a slightly different place.

The second issue is why there's no blood on the left hand page apart from the mirror image. Now that is an interesting point. If the Bible was placed there on that blood stain, there should be more blood on the left hand page if the stain hadn't been there very long.

[Roch]

Hi Harry.

There are two different issues relating to what you posted.

Firstly, the stain being on the wrong page. The Bible could have been put face down on the stain and then moved by either Jeremy or Sheila. We know that it was shut at some point and then opened again, so it could have been put back down in a slightly different place.

The second issue is why there's no blood on the left hand page apart from the mirror image. Now that is an interesting point. If the Bible was placed there on that blood stain, there should be more blood on the left hand page if the stain hadn't been there very long.

I thought it was almost universally accepted on here that the stain was a palm print.  I can only think of one member who refused to accept this.

[Kaldin]

I thought it was almost universally accepted on here that the stain was a palm print.  I can only think of one member who refused to accept this.

I don't know about that. I haven't yet accepted that it was a palm print. I am thinking again in light of what Harry said though.

[Kaldin]

The only interesting thing from the bible discussion yesterday was that the bible is on top of Sheila's arm. It was impossible for this to happen after Sheila shot herself. Therefore Bamber put the bible there.

Yes, it's very important, but it's not the only important thing. I said yesterday that Sheila's right hand was moved and was in a different position in two photos, but also the gun was moved - in one photo the end of the barrel is lying across the left side of her neck, and in another one it's much lower down. It's true that I can't find a photo of the Bible in a different position, but the moving of the hand and the gun makes me suspicious.

[Roch]

The only interesting thing from the bible discussion yesterday was that the bible is on top of Sheila's arm. It was impossible for this to happen after Sheila shot herself. Therefore Bamber put the bible there.

I think deep down we all know who put the bible on the arm of Sheila.  At present it seems to be a toss-up between police staging the scene and the path of a door  .  The bible certainly wasn't originally where the TFG officers witnessed it to be... otherwise they would not have questioned it! 

Perhaps the bloodstain on the carpet also wasn't originally there?  Food for thought.

One set of police officers (TFG) view the scene.  When their role is complete, a second set of officers (SOCO and detectives) take over the scene  - but end up having to change it, prior to photography, after something goes wrong.   

The first set of officers then question their superiors, regarding why the scene has changed - because they cannot reconcile their own recollections with the images being presented to them. 

[Kaldin]

The large stain at the top of the right-hand page isn't the only interesting thing. What about the blood stain near the bottom of the left-hand page? That extends down the side of the Bible as well. Is it a trickle of blood? That stain would have been against Sheila's right arm, and there's no corresponding trickle of blood in that area of her arm.

[guest2181]

I thought it was almost universally accepted on here that the stain was a palm print.  I can only think of one member who refused to accept this.

I refused to accept the certainty of it being a palm print.

[Roch]

I refused to accept the certainty of it being a palm print.

Yeah - it was you who I was thinking of. 

Isn't it almost amusing though - that we now have a situation - whereby Sheila's neck wound is supposed to have transferred enough blood to the underside of her wrist* to cause the runs on her wrist that ended in congealed 'spots' - but she still isn't allowed to have a bloodied palm that could cause a print on the bible - because the prosecution's case is that her palm was blood-free?

*even though this is really uncomfortable and unlikely (have you tried it yet?)



 

[guest2181]

The large stain at the top of the right-hand page isn't the only interesting thing. What about the blood stain near the bottom of the left-hand page? That extends down the side of the Bible as well. Is it a trickle of blood? That stain would have been against Sheila's right arm, and there's no corresponding trickle of blood in that area of her arm.

The blood on the floor could actually be from June (we are told other blood around and under Sheila is June's). If so, then it's possible that the blood on the carpet was dry before the bible was placed/fell there.
If the stain on the bible is a palm print, then it does not belong to Sheila, her palms were not stained with blood.

It may be the case the the bible was originally on Sheila's chest and was relocated to the position we see it in the photographs.

[Kaldin]

I refused to accept the certainty of it being a palm print.

I would question the assumption that it was a palm print because there are traces of blood extending to the left of that stain. It's very subtle but those traces of blood don't really fit with the theory of it being a palm print.