The Bible

[Caroline]

If you have to create evidence to lock somebody away for a crime - what's the chance that the reason there was insufficient evidence in the first place... was because they didn't commit the crime?  It's not exactly nuclear physics 

I mean where do you draw the line?

That's not true MOST cases are taken to court on circumstantial evidence. Most don't have a smoking gun or a hand in a till, or you wouldn't need a jury to deliberate. I think the whole silencer thing skewed the evidence and believe that without it, he would have been found guilty with a higher majority.

[Kaldin]

Obviously you've seen the other forensic evidence.

Bamber would carry out the massacre with the silencer attached. He either knew beforehand or realised on the night that the rifle was too long for Sheila with the silencer attached.

Or Bamber took the silencer off prior to burning Nevill's back.

Was the silencer usually kept on the gun?

[David1819]

The real question is - was the silencer on the gun at any stage? The evidence suggests that it was, and yet there's something very foolish about Jeremy using the silencer and then taking it off because he realised Sheila couldn't reach with it attached. I've seen no evidence that she couldn't reach. Did they actually try it with her body?

34. The evidence of Dr Fowler is set out in a more substantial report.  That report has been peer?reviewed by Dr Dragovich, who is Chief Medical Examiner in Oakland County, Michigan and Dr Marcella Fierro, who is the retired Chief Medical Examiner to the Commonwealth of Virginia.  Both have qualifications as forensic pathologists.  In his careful report, Dr Fowler makes clear that he has reviewed the evidence, which was available in relation to the wounds.  He concluded that the abrasions found were consistent with those of a rifle without a silencer, that there were no distinctive marks on the body which showed that a silencer had been attached, and the residue was consistent with contact wounds.

https://streamable.com/f1vb6

[Caroline]

Why do you think the police asked the relatives to lie in their WS's & say they found the silencer ?

The police could have used the 50+ other pieces of forensic evidence as justification for returning to WHF to do further searches. Finding the silencer in the process.

All other guilters believe the relatives found one piece of evidence which they passed to the police. It does happen.

I know Jones was afraid that they might loose the case even WITH the silencer. I don't think he was happy just to go with a circumstantial case.

[Caroline]

Was the silencer usually kept on the gun?

Apparently so (according to AP). I asked Jeremy if he removed it, he said not and that his father liked to clean the guns regularly  and that he had probably removed it.

[David1819]

I know Jones was afraid that they might loose the case even WITH the silencer. I don't think he was happy just to go with a circumstantial case.

What circumstantial case?

[Adam]

I know Jones was afraid that they might loose the case even WITH the silencer. I don't think he was happy just to go with a circumstantial case.

So you believe Stan Jones asked the relatives to lie in their WS's & say they found the silencer.

Do you believe the relatives with Basil Cock & Barbara Wilson went to WHF for a tidy up just after the massacre ?

[Jane]

If you have to create evidence to lock somebody away for a crime - what's the chance that the reason there was insufficient evidence in the first place... was because they didn't commit the crime?  It's not exactly nuclear physics 

I mean where do you draw the line?

Most lawyers are more concerned with whether the jury will buy the story they're selling, than whether their client is innocent or guilty.

[Kaldin]

34. The evidence of Dr Fowler is set out in a more substantial report.  That report has been peer?reviewed by Dr Dragovich, who is Chief Medical Examiner in Oakland County, Michigan and Dr Marcella Fierro, who is the retired Chief Medical Examiner to the Commonwealth of Virginia.  Both have qualifications as forensic pathologists.  In his careful report, Dr Fowler makes clear that he has reviewed the evidence, which was available in relation to the wounds.  He concluded that the abrasions found were consistent with those of a rifle without a silencer, that there were no distinctive marks on the body which showed that a silencer had been attached, and the residue was consistent with contact wounds.

https://streamable.com/f1vb6

Then we're still left with the issue of the paint and the blood. The paint could have got on the silencer at any time of course - a false move whilst cleaning the gun perhaps? I'm aware that some chap has said that there were no scratches on the red mantelpiece until after the crimes, but that would indicate a definite stitch up - by whom?

The blood in the silencer - that was tested again before the 2002 appeal and it was confirmed that there was human DNA inside it. How did that get there?

[lookout]

That enzyme is also present in rabbits,rats and chickens. This AK1 enzyme had been a bit of a bone of contention leading up to the trial as it had been noted that vermin's blood contained the enzyme of which there'd been two types found on the end of the silencer. This information was never used at trial nor as it included in forensic reports.

[Adam]

What circumstantial case?

Errr. Nevill's 'mysterious' call to Bamber which rounded the suspects down to two.

That's a good start.

[lookout]

The " flake " of dried blood could have also been argued as belonging to an animal and had been present for a while,otherwise there'd have been no need to have scraped it off.

[Kaldin]

Apparently so (according to AP). I asked Jeremy if he removed it, he said not and that his father liked to clean the guns regularly  and that he had probably removed it.

Did Jeremy say that he'd left the gun with the silencer attached the night before? What about the telescopic sights?

[Kaldin]

That enzyme is also present in rabbits,rats and chickens. This AK1 enzyme had been a bit of a bone of contention leading up to the trial as it had been noted that vermin's blood contained the enzyme of which there'd been two types found on the end of the silencer. This information was never used at trial nor as it included in forensic reports.

Yes, but human DNA was found later on.

[Adam]

Then we're still left with the issue of the paint and the blood. The paint could have got on the silencer at any time of course - a false move whilst cleaning the gun perhaps? I'm aware that some chap has said that there were no scratches on the red mantelpiece until after the crimes, but that would indicate a definite stitch up - by whom?

The blood in the silencer - that was tested again before the 2002 appeal and it was confirmed that there was human DNA inside it. How did that get there?

Human blood inside the silencer rounds it down to 5 people.

Sheila received a contact shot which rounds it down to two I believe.

Someone scratching the aga with the silencer by cleaning it, just before the massacre ? That is a new theory.