Author Topic: Yvonne Hartley  (Read 24309 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #150 on: September 15, 2017, 12:55:PM »
What evidence has changed since you said this -

'The forensics point to him in all directions despite the police errors and inconsistencies.

Nothing. I said that under the impression the silencer was used and that is all the 'forensics' there is. Much like the Jury I was misled. Once I realised Scipio's argument was flawed I revised my position accordingly.

Offline Adam

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #151 on: September 15, 2017, 01:00:PM »
Nothing. I said that under the impression the silencer was used and that is all the 'forensics' there is. Much like the Jury I was misled. Once I realised Scipio's argument was flawed I revised my position accordingly.

So you've based you're guilt & then innocence stance on one piece of forensic evidence. And now believe the police & relatives fabricated the silencer. 

Did you previously not believe the rest of the published incriminating evidence was based on 'perjury & forgery' ?
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #152 on: September 15, 2017, 02:26:PM »
Why should someone bother taking the time to explain something to you that you have already worked out yourself? Unless you have totally forgotten everything you wrote, it shows you are not here for an honest debate.

Changing your mind does not change the evidence. And the reasons you have given certainly does not nullify the evidence either.

Like you changed your mind? How could I forget what I wrote? You have adopted most of it!

By the way, I have no wish for you to explain anything to me. I wasn't talking to you!
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 02:30:PM by Caroline »
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Offline Jane

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #153 on: September 15, 2017, 02:41:PM »
" Common characteristics of a victim of emotional abuse ", quote :

" They have a low self-esteem "
 " They have a submissive personality "
" They feel inferior to others "
 " They depend on others emotionally and financially "
 " They feel they don't deserve to be respected as human beings "
 " They have unrealistic expectations "
 " They feel they need to be controlled ( or protected ) by others "
 " They are excessively tolerant and accommodating "
 " They don't stand for their rights "
 " They deceive themselves in thinking that--one day--magically,the abuser will change "
 " They blame themselves on other people's problems,or they blame it on the world,or life,or luck,or a given situation.
 " They are not aware of the fact that they allow abuse to occur "
 "They don't feel they are capable to succeed by themselves "
 " They tend to have a difficult time setting boundaries and saying " NO ".

In between times Sheila lived with depression through lack of self-achievement, and frustration because of the continuous controlling and belittling attitude from her mother.   
Quite often,the victim will allow the abuse to continue because they feel that they have nothing to live for.
The abusers themselves have mental health issues and also display inadequate behaviours whether the victim is present or not. Theirs is a personality disorder.
Sheila had been a healthy child but on growing into adulthood didn't have a particularly good relationship with her mother. Her salvation in this household was her father who she relied on for emotional support, and up to a point she'd have been able to control her emotions of the psychological abuse,but not those of her abuser.
If Sheila's father hadn't been around,I doubt very much that Sheila would ever have visited WHF.

You missed out the part where, without help, they'll never experience a relationship which isn't emotionally/psychologically abusive, because they lack the emotional tools to do so. Many DO achieve, but don't recognize it because their abuser belittles the achievement. The abuser can't afford to allow their victim any success because they'll lose their hold on them. Without help, the victim doesn't know how to stop the abuse from happening. The abuser's behaviour is always inappropriate although it may, on occasions be "inadequate". It's highly likely that the abuser will also have been a victim. Had Sheila's relationship with June not broken down until she was an adult, she'd have had the 'tools' to cope. The relationship is likely, always, to have been one of controller/controlled. Sheila, in all likelihood, would have continued to visit June even if Nevill hadn't been there. She'd have gone out of the sense of gratitude and duty she'd been indoctrinated with, but more importantly, because she'd have hoped -vainly- that during one of those visits June would have shown her the love she longed for.

Offline lookout

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #154 on: September 15, 2017, 03:40:PM »
You missed out the part where, without help, they'll never experience a relationship which isn't emotionally/psychologically abusive, because they lack the emotional tools to do so. Many DO achieve, but don't recognize it because their abuser belittles the achievement. The abuser can't afford to allow their victim any success because they'll lose their hold on them. Without help, the victim doesn't know how to stop the abuse from happening. The abuser's behaviour is always inappropriate although it may, on occasions be "inadequate". It's highly likely that the abuser will also have been a victim. Had Sheila's relationship with June not broken down until she was an adult, she'd have had the 'tools' to cope. The relationship is likely, always, to have been one of controller/controlled. Sheila, in all likelihood, would have continued to visit June even if Nevill hadn't been there. She'd have gone out of the sense of gratitude and duty she'd been indoctrinated with, but more importantly, because she'd have hoped -vainly- that during one of those visits June would have shown her the love she longed for.






I didn't miss anything out when you read into it. It's you,because you always now feel that it's a rite of passage that you have to pick holes in everything I post.

Offline Jane

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #155 on: September 15, 2017, 04:26:PM »





I didn't miss anything out when you read into it. It's you,because you always now feel that it's a rite of passage that you have to pick holes in everything I post.

Where did I say there was anything wrong with what you wrote? Actually, it was factual, unsentimental and you didn't made wild claims, but you failed to make clear something which is hugely important. There's a difference between adding a point and picking holes.

 Regarding Sheila's relationship with Nevill. I get why she turned to him. He supported her against June's harshness but it seems it almost became a game of good parent/bad parent. Almost like each was vying with the other for control of her with June being the dominant parent. I wonder why Nevill didn't discuss, with June, why it was that she was so rigid with Sheila?

Offline lookout

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #156 on: September 15, 2017, 04:33:PM »
Where did I say there was anything wrong with what you wrote? Actually, it was factual, unsentimental and you didn't made wild claims, but you failed to make clear something which is hugely important. There's a difference between adding a point and picking holes.

 Regarding Sheila's relationship with Nevill. I get why she turned to him. He supported her against June's harshness but it seems it almost became a game of good parent/bad parent. Almost like each was vying with the other for control of her with June being the dominant parent. I wonder why Nevill didn't discuss, with June, why it was that she was so rigid with Sheila?





I can bet that there were umpteen rows going on over Sheila between the parents. This is possibly why June could have been at breaking point during those last weeks of her own life. I'd be interested to have known when June penned her letter to the family.

Offline Jane

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #157 on: September 15, 2017, 04:42:PM »




I can bet that there were umpteen rows going on over Sheila between the parents. This is possibly why June could have been at breaking point during those last weeks of her own life. I'd be interested to have known when June penned her letter to the family.

We have no idea if Sheila saw June and Nevill, at any time other than the designated visit, prior to her death, so it's not possible to say that rows between them were the cause of June having "been at breaking point".

June's letter MAY have been written at a time when she felt ill and may have believed she was going to die imminently. Were not her words something like "If I should have to leave you (suddenly?)..............."

Offline Adam

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #158 on: September 15, 2017, 04:46:PM »
So you've based you're guilt & then innocence stance on one piece of forensic evidence. And now believe the police & relatives fabricated the silencer. 

Did you previously not believe the rest of the published incriminating evidence was based on 'perjury & forgery' ?

No answer.

It seems David changed stance after realising the police & relatives together had the capacity to fabricate the silencer. In other words one piece of evidence.

This automatically results in him now trying to dismiss all the other published incriminating forensic & circumstantial evidence which as a hardcore guilter, he had previously supported.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 05:00:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #159 on: September 15, 2017, 04:54:PM »
We have no idea if Sheila saw June and Nevill, at any time other than the designated visit, prior to her death, so it's not possible to say that rows between them were the cause of June having "been at breaking point".

June's letter MAY have been written at a time when she felt ill and may have believed she was going to die imminently. Were not her words something like "If I should have to leave you (suddenly?)..............."





According to the pathologist,June was a healthy woman ? Pity he couldn't have seen inside her mind.

Offline Jane

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #160 on: September 15, 2017, 05:30:PM »




According to the pathologist,June was a healthy woman ? Pity he couldn't have seen inside her mind.

OR it could have been the most unbelievable piece of guilt inducement. "I kept telling you all that I wasn't well"!!!!!

Offline Harry

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #161 on: September 16, 2017, 07:02:AM »
Wow! You certainly put some heavy reliance on what I used to believe. I guess I should be flattered. Do you have any theories of your own to add or are you just going to repost my old posts?

Believing Bamber is innocent, leads you to make assumptions in order to explain some really odd behaviour. You have to believe that Julie is a monster and capable of sending an innocent man who she once loved, to prison for the rest of his life. They had nothing on Julie - she told them about the cheque book fraud and the Osea robbery and she was nowhere near WHF on the night of the murders.

When the fog lifted, I had to ask what I would do - no matter how much I resented someone, I'd never do that. I don't imagine she's that much different to the rest of us on that score. However, boot on the other foot, if she had done that to me, I have to ask what kind of letter I would have sent to her - it certainly wouldn't end 'love you stinker'. Odd thing is, I can put myself in Julie's shoes to a certain extent and understand some of the behaviours she expressed - can't do that with Bamber.

They are not your theories. I came to certain conclusions before you did.

I don't think Jeremy hates Julie Mugford, the reason being that he realises fully that she agreed to co-operate because she was threatened with a long jail sentence if she didn't. Demonising Julie Mugford is a basic mistake. The whole woman scorned seeking revenge thing is a myth. According to Liz Rimmington, Julie did not want to go to the police and had to be pushed into it.

What probably happened is something like this. Once Liz Rimmington had betrayed her trust, Julie faced the prospects of a long jail term as an accomplice of Bamber. Suppose for the sake of argument she had tried to back out saying "But I just made up those things, because I was angry with Jeremy". It would not have worked. The police had gained the advantage that they had been looking for and were not going to let it slip. DS Jones would have explained to Mugford that her only chance of avoiding prison was to co-operate fully, so what you basically have in Mugford is a puppet witness who was terrified and literally fighting for her life.

The way that Mugford and Battersby lied on the instructions of the police in describing the vist to the bank shows what had been going on right from the beginning. The girls were told to say that they had gone there of their own volition and not accompanied by a police officer (as was attested by the manager Alan Dovey).

Earlier, the police had told Battersby to say that Mugford had told her she knew that Jeremy was the culprit even before she had told Liz Rimmington. That incident with Battersby larking about at a party and squeezing cream on Jeremy gives the lie to that story. It is predated by the time Julie allegedly told her friend that she knew Jeremy was the killer.

Susan would not have been laughing and joking with Jeremy if she knew he was a child killer. To comprehend the real status of Mugford and Battersby as witnesses, you should start with the visit to the bank. Their "evidence" was the result of intructions from dodgy Stan Jones.

The Court of Appeal in 2002 rejected the claim by Bamber's defence that Dovey's account proves that Mugford and Battersby were lying.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 06:26:AM by Harry »

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #162 on: September 16, 2017, 09:38:AM »
They are not your theories. I came to certain conclusions before you did.

I don't think Jeremy hates Julie Mugford, the reason being that he realises fully that she agreed to co-operate because she was threatened with a long jail sentence if she didn't. Demonising Julie Mugford is a basic mistake. The whole woman scorned seeking revenge thing is a myth. According to Liz Rimmington, Julie did not want to go to the police and had to be pushed into it.

What probably happened is something like this. Once Liz Rimmington had betrayed her trust, Julie faced the prospects of a long jail term as an accomplice of Bamber. Suppose for the sake of argument she had tried to back out saying "But I just made up those things, because I was angy with Jeremy". It would not have worked. The police had gained the advantage that they had been looking for and were not going to let it slip. DS Jones would have explained to Mugford that her only chance of avoiding prison was to co-operate fully, so what you basically have in Mugford is a puppet witness who was terrified and fighting for her life.

The way that Mugford and Battersby lied on the instructions of the police in describing the vist to the bank shows what had been going on right from the beginning. The girls were told to say that they had gone there of their own volition and not accompanied by a police officer (as was attested by the manager Alan Dovey).

Earlier, the police had told Battersby to say that Mugford had told her she knew that Jeremy was the culprit even before she had told Liz Rimmington. That incident with Battersby larking about at a party and squeezing cream on Jeremy gives the lie to that story. It is predated by the time Julie allegedly told her friend that she knew Jeremy was the killer.

Susan would not have been laughing and joking with Jeremy if she knew he was a child killer. To comprehend the real status of Mugford and Battersby as witnesses, you should start with the visit to the bank. Their "evidence" was the result of intructions from dodgy Stan Jones.

The Court of Appeal in 2002 rejected the claim by Bamber's defence that Dovey's account proves that Mugford and Battersby were lying.
This is well argued but had Julie been fighting for her life so to speak she would not have introduced the fantastic Matthew McDonald hitman scenario, but laid all the blame on Jeremy. I think this also explains why Susan Battersby, again probably young and immature, was larking about with the other guests at the party, one of whom happened to be child killer Jeremy Bamber.

As far as Alan Dovey is concerned he was probably guided by Head Office as to the final decision not to prosecute, which in turn would have been contacted by DS Jones or his superior. Julie and Susan may have met the Police Officer on the day at the bank so whether he "accompanied" them is really immaterial and just playing with words. http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1165.0.html
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 09:40:AM by Steve_uk »

Offline lookout

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #163 on: September 16, 2017, 10:51:AM »
The reason that JM had introduced MM into the equation was to steer her mind away from the FACT that she'd KNOWN Jeremy WASN'T guilty,so she made up the name of someone who'd been mentioned in a conversation at some time. It wouldn't have mattered who it was so long as she could pick a name out of a hat as it were,to cover herself from her and everyone else blaming Jeremy.
JM knew it wasn't Jeremy and to save any embarrassment on her part towards him thinking that she'd even thought of him as a murderer,she plumped for MM---------as simple as that,but it all blew up in her face.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Yvonne Hartley
« Reply #164 on: September 16, 2017, 12:54:PM »
The reason that JM had introduced MM into the equation was to steer her mind away from the FACT that she'd KNOWN Jeremy WASN'T guilty,so she made up the name of someone who'd been mentioned in a conversation at some time. It wouldn't have mattered who it was so long as she could pick a name out of a hat as it were,to cover herself from her and everyone else blaming Jeremy.
JM knew it wasn't Jeremy and to save any embarrassment on her part towards him thinking that she'd even thought of him as a murderer,she plumped for MM---------as simple as that,but it all blew up in her face.

She didn't know MM - Jeremy did. What would be the point of naming someone else? It's a big sticking point in Julie's story (supposedly to frame Jeremy as a woman scored) that she didn't just name Bamber isn't it? Fact is, she wouldn't have mentioned MM unless someone had told her.
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