Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm

[mike tesko]

Ambulance crews were deployed to the scene and given information which had been passed to the operator by way of a '999' call, by Sheila Caffell! She is understood to have told the operator that she had just shot her dad. Upon arrival at the incident the ambulance crews were prevented from going directly to the farmhouse because of safety issues! At 7am, firearm officers did not know the whereabouts inside the farmhouse of Sheila, nor did they know if she still had control of a loaded gun! It was not until about 7.15am when cops finally persuaded her to show the weapon she had been using at a window, before they would let the ambulance crew come to tend to the wounded and the dying!

They tricked Sheila into showing the anshuzt rifle at a first floor box room window!

Sheila made her way downstairs to the region of the kitchen, the scene where she had shot her dad to death! She intended to go through the kitchen to unlock the farmhouse door to allow the ambulance crew access, but she didn't get that far, before the firearm officers sledge hammered in the door, and proceeded to enter the kitchen! It was at this stage that there was a struggle over the possession of the officers weapon!

[mike tesko]

Sheila made her way downstairs to the region of the kitchen, the scene where she had shot her dad to death! She intended to go through the kitchen to unlock the farmhouse door to allow the ambulance crew access, but she didn't get that far, before the firearm officers sledge hammered in the door, and proceeded to enter the kitchen! It was at this stage that there was a struggle over the possession of the officers weapon!

WPC Jeapes and PC Brown both saw the rifle which Sheila had placed at the box room window! They saw the six man raid team making its approach to try and bring the seige to a conclusion at 7.30am, after a three and a half hour stand off...

[Jan]

There was a link to ambulance crew statements on here but it does not work . Did you have copies ?

[mike tesko]

There was a link to ambulance crew statements on here but it does not work . Did you have copies ?

Yes, but not to hand...

[Kaldin]

I'd like to revisit the issue of the blood on Sheila's arm. I think these are runs from drips of blood and not the result of injuries to her arm. That would suggest that she was standing up or at least sitting up when she was shot and that her right arm was directly below her chin at the time of one of the shots so that the blood dripped onto her arm. That would probably be the first shot.

If she shot herself and then fell backwards, it's not much of a mystery, but if Jeremy shot her, he had to make sure that he positioned the rifle correctly, and I'm not sure how he would have done that. Did he ask her to stand or sit still whilst he shoved a rifle up against her neck? Perhaps he did just that and she had her hand on the rifle trying to push it away, which is how the blood dripped onto her arm.

I do think that the evidence shows that she was shot where she was found - I see no evidence that she shot herself once and then walked around.

[Adam]

I'd like to revisit the issue of the blood on Sheila's arm. I think these are runs from drips of blood and not the result of injuries to her arm. That would suggest that she was standing up or at least sitting up when she was shot and that her right arm was directly below her chin at the time of one of the shots so that the blood dripped onto her arm. That would probably be the first shot.

If she shot herself and then fell backwards, it's not much of a mystery, but if Jeremy shot her, he had to make sure that he positioned the rifle correctly, and I'm not sure how he would have done that. Did he ask her to stand or sit still whilst he shoved a rifle up against her neck? Perhaps he did just that and she had her hand on the rifle trying to push it away, which is how the blood dripped onto her arm.

I do think that the evidence shows that she was shot where she was found - I see no evidence that she shot herself once and then walked around.

How do you think Sheila committed the massacre ?

[David1819]

I'd like to revisit the issue of the blood on Sheila's arm. I think these are runs from drips of blood and not the result of injuries to her arm. That would suggest that she was standing up or at least sitting up when she was shot and that her right arm was directly below her chin at the time of one of the shots so that the blood dripped onto her arm. That would probably be the first shot.

If she shot herself and then fell backwards, it's not much of a mystery, but if Jeremy shot her, he had to make sure that he positioned the rifle correctly, and I'm not sure how he would have done that. Did he ask her to stand or sit still whilst he shoved a rifle up against her neck? Perhaps he did just that and she had her hand on the rifle trying to push it away, which is how the blood dripped onto her arm.

I do think that the evidence shows that she was shot where she was found - I see no evidence that she shot herself once and then walked around.

Something like this. (NSFL)
https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck

[Kaldin]

Something like this. (NSFL)
https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck

Possibly, although there wasn't much time for blood to drip onto that poor chap's arm. However, the first shot didn't kill her, and it might not have been enough for her to fall over, so there would have been time. It's interesting where the gun ended up - pretty much where the gun ended up on Sheila.

[Kaldin]

How do you think Sheila committed the massacre ?

If she did it, I can only make some guesses here. Apparently, there had been some discussion earlier on about the twins which was a bit negative, so it's possible that she woke in the night and was convinced she had to kill them. In that case, I think she shot them first. They were asleep so clearly there hadn't been any commotion to wake them up. Neville maybe heard the shots and got up to investigate, but it's not clear to me if she shot him at that time. It's also possible that she was only threatening to shoot the twins and that's when Neville went to downstairs to call Jeremy. Anyway, he went downstairs and that's when she could have shot the twins and June, and then went downstairs to confront Neville.

[Roch]

I'd like to revisit the issue of the blood on Sheila's arm. I think these are runs from drips of blood and not the result of injuries to her arm. That would suggest that she was standing up or at least sitting up when she was shot and that her right arm was directly below her chin at the time of one of the shots so that the blood dripped onto her arm. That would probably be the first shot.

If she shot herself and then fell backwards, it's not much of a mystery, but if Jeremy shot her, he had to make sure that he positioned the rifle correctly, and I'm not sure how he would have done that. Did he ask her to stand or sit still whilst he shoved a rifle up against her neck? Perhaps he did just that and she had her hand on the rifle trying to push it away, which is how the blood dripped onto her arm.

I do think that the evidence shows that she was shot where she was found - I see no evidence that she shot herself once and then walked around.

Are you referring to lower arm (i.e. wrist)?  It's difficult to discern correctly from images on the forum - but the trails actually fade away from the darker spots.  The trails are 'dappled' in appearance and become more faint away from the spots.  There are also occurrences of broken skin in the vicinity of the darker spots.   Personally I would have to disagree that the wrist spots are formed by a coagulation of runs deposited on her arm from the neck wound. 

There are also other occurrences of broken skin further up the arm, including cuts upon her upper arm that are completely distinct from any nearby trail or smear.  In addition various cuts, upon her hand and grazing / nicks on another part of the same hand.   
   

[Kaldin]

Are you referring to lower arm (i.e. wrist)?  It's difficult to discern correctly from images on the forum - but the trails actually fade away from the darker spots.  The trails are 'dappled' in appearance and become more faint away from the spots.  There are also occurrences of broken skin in the vicinity of the darker spots.   Personally I would have to disagree that the wrist spots are formed by a coagulation of runs deposited on her arm from the neck wound. 

There are also other occurrences of broken skin further up the arm and upon her hand.  The are also cuts on her upper arm that are completely distinct from any nearby trail or smear - these being in addition to cuts, upon her hand and grazing / nicks on another part of the same hand.   
 

I can see several trails of blood on her lower arm and her wrist, and I can see the darker spots. It's possible that the darker spots are where the blood fell and then trickled away round her arm, becoming fainter. It's also possible that the dark spots are where the blood finally stopped running and pooled.

I can't see any cuts on her upper arm, only more trails of blood. The blood on her nightdress puzzles me though - she could not have bled that way if she was lying down when she was shot.

[Roch]

I can see several trails of blood on her lower arm and her wrist, and I can see the darker spots. It's possible that the darker spots are where the blood fell and then trickled away round her arm, becoming fainter. It's also possible that the dark spots are where the blood finally stopped running and pooled.

I can't see any cuts on her upper arm, only more trails of blood. The blood on her nightdress puzzles me though - she could not have bled that way if she was lying down when she was shot.

Yes the definition and clarity of the images on the forum is poor.  If we run with your first option - in my mind - this requires Sheila to manoeuvre her own arm back and forth underneath her neck wound, in order for the blood to fall in successive spots evenly along her wrist.

If you try doing this yourself, so that your arm doesn't rotate, it feels very awkward.

[Kaldin]

Yes the definition and clarity of the images on the forum is poor.  If we run with your first option - in my mind - this requires Sheila to manoeuvre her own arm back and forth, underneath her neck wound, in order for the blood to fall in successive spots, evenly along her wrist.

If you try doing this yourself, so that your arm doesn't rotate, it feels very awkward.

Yes, I do see what you mean, but the problem remains whether it was Sheila or Jeremy who pulled the trigger. She might not have been moving her arm, she might have been moving her head forwards and backwards for the blood to drip in those positions, or she might have been trying to push the gun away from her after the first shot.

[Adam]

If she did it, I can only make some guesses here. Apparently, there had been some discussion earlier on about the twins which was a bit negative, so it's possible that she woke in the night and was convinced she had to kill them. In that case, I think she shot them first. They were asleep so clearly there hadn't been any commotion to wake them up. Neville maybe heard the shots and got up to investigate, but it's not clear to me if she shot him at that time. It's also possible that she was only threatening to shoot the twins and that's when Neville went to downstairs to call Jeremy. Anyway, he went downstairs and that's when she could have shot the twins and June, and then went downstairs to confront Neville.

Obviously Sheila shooting the twins & waking Nevill is ruled out. As Nevill wouldn't have then phoned Bamber due to time constraints.

However if there was a big commotion beforehand, the twins or June would have woken.

Sheila couldn't have shot the twins & June & then gone downstairs to confront Nevill as he was shot 4 times upstairs. Nevill would have overpowered her in the kitchen as Sheila would have no bullets & he would still be fully fit.

[Kaldin]

Obviously Sheila shooting the twins & waking Nevill is ruled out. As Nevill wouldn't have then phoned Bamber due to time constraints.

However if there was a big commotion beforehand, the twins or June would have woken.

Sheila couldn't have shot the twins & June & then gone downstairs to confront Nevill as he was shot 4 times upstairs. Nevill would have overpowered her then as Sheila would have no bullets & he would still be fully fit.

Why would Sheila shooting the twins first and waking Neville be ruled out because of time constraints?

If Neville was shot four times upstairs, what was June Bamber doing? Did she stay in bed? There are a lot of blood stains on the bed. Wouldn't the twins and Sheila have woken up?

Do you think that either Jeremy or Sheila confronted Neville first in the kitchen? How then did he get shot upstairs? Also, I would have thought that someone upstairs would have heard the commotion. After all, it's been said there was quite a fight in there as well as the gun being fired.