Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm

[Roch]

And the fact he gave court testimony at the trial saying he was there as well, you missed that bit.

No, I already knew he gave testimony at trial. 

[Jane]

Perhaps his notes are not complete?  Perhaps he described contamination separately from wounds.  You're really hanging on these notes mind 

It has been suggested that West and Bonnett concealed the fact of Nevill's call in case it was decided to frame Jeremy for the murders. Are you suggesting that autopsy information was withheld for the same reason?

[guest7363]

There are a few reasons.

Wouldn't be wanting to be known as a child killer
Once he confesses, he's no longer special
If he confessed, did his time and got parole, there would be no compo and he'd go where and do what?

You missed one Caroline?  Could be this,

Psychopaths and sociopaths share a number of characteristics, including a lack of remorse or empathy for others, a lack of guilt or ability to take responsibility for their actions,

[guest7363]

No, I already knew he gave testimony at trial.

Oh sorry Roch 

[guest2181]

You missed one Caroline?  Could be this,

Psychopaths and sociopaths share a number of characteristics, including a lack of remorse or empathy for others, a lack of guilt or ability to take responsibility for their actions,

I see your point, but I think it's a bit harsh to label Roch a psychopath.   

[guest7363]

I see your point, but I think it's a bit harsh to label Roch a psychopath.   

You had me worried then, I had to check it over and over again. 

[Adam]

Adam you are totally misrepresenting what people have said and summarising thier opinions with single points that are not even accurate . So personally I think you are grasping at straws.

If I take one point ( just the one) I personally do think that the fact that Julie identified the twins is a CONTRIBUTING factor to some posters opinions . Most of them find it very difficult to believe that she would identify the twins when her later statements state she KNEW he had killed them . Therefore they are of the opinion that at that point of time she did not know he was guilty in other words she thought him innocent . Because who on earth would do what she did . But that of course would mean her later statements were not true and her first statements were true.

So as I say it is a point BUT NOT the total reason some posters believe his innocence .

And if you ever want some pointers about poachers and living in the countryside please let me know😎

But I can tell you 100% owls are not the target of poachers 😀

Reasons why Julie identified the twins

She wanted to be helpful.

She was not as upset as everyone else. As was not related to any of the deceased.

Another person volunteered but the police rejected the offer.

She still didn't believe or was not sure Bamber was guilty.

She was asked to.

She was not doing anything useful or constructive,  as had been whisked over by Bamber. So offered, or was asked.

Bamber seemed to be coping well, and could cope for a short period while Julie went to identify the bodies.

She went with another relative to give moral support.

If she didn't go with another relative, then she would have originally assumed she would be accompanied.

She believed Bamber was guilty, identifying the twins is no worse than being by his side as he acted.

She knew the twins and could identify them.

Bamber didn't offer to do this. 

No one else offerred.

Her WS was true and she felt she could communicate with them.

She offered in error. But couldn't withdraw once the offer had been made.

She wanted a break from the crime scene and police. Which was a situation she had not asked to be a part of.

She believed seeing the twins would help her come to terms with what had happened.

She was in the room when discussions about who would do this started. So not surprising she ended up doing this.

If not in the room, Bamber or someone else recommended to the police Julie could do this.

If she was asked & refused she would be criticised.

The police felt Julie was the best person. She could identify the twins but had least emotional attachment.

She had little attachment to the twins. They were her boyfriends sisters, sons.

Bamber had brought her over in a police car. She assumed this was so she could be helpful. Identifying the bodies is being helpful.

No one tried to stop her identifying the twins.

A combination of several of the above.

                                   ---------------

Well the only reason JackieD has ever given is that Julie identified the twins.

Believing she would act differently at Julie's age & her predicted reaction represents everyone. She even created a thread addressed to me on this. 

[susan]

Reasons why Julie identified the twins

She wanted to be helpful.

She was not as upset as everyone else. As was not related to any of the deceased.

Another person volunteered but the police rejected the offer.

She still didn't believe or was not sure Bamber was guilty.

She was asked to.

She was not doing anything useful or constructive,  as had been whisked over by Bamber. So offered, or was asked.

Bamber seemed to be coping well, and could cope for a short period while Julie went to identify the bodies.

She went with another relative to give moral support.

If she didn't go with another relative, then she would have originally assumed she would be accompanied.

She believed Bamber was guilty, identifying the twins is no worse than being by his side as he acted.

She knew the twins and could identify them.

Bamber didn't offer to do this. 

No one else offerred.

Her WS was true and she felt she could communicate with them.

She offered in error. But couldn't withdraw once the offer had been made.

She wanted a break from the crime scene and police. Which was a situation she had not asked to be a part of.

She believed seeing the twins would help her come to terms with what had happened.

She was in the room when discussions about who would do this started. So not surprising she ended up doing this.

If not in the room, Bamber or someone else recommended to the police Julie could do this.

If she was asked & refused she would be criticised.

The police felt Julie was the best person. She could identify the twins but had least emotional attachment.

She had little attachment to the twins. They were her boyfriends sisters, sons.

Bamber had brought her over in a police car. She assumed this was so she could be helpful. Identifying the bodies is being helpful.

No one tried to stop her identifying the twins.

A combination of several of the above.

                                   ---------------

Well the only reason JackieD has ever given is that Julie identified the twins.

Believing she would act differently at Julie's age & her predicted reaction represents everyone. She even created a thread addressed to me on this.

Adam I have read all the points you have made with regard to Julie identifying the twins.  IMO Julie could not have done this if she had known her boyfriend was responsible for the death of those two wee innocent little boys.  After this traumatic experience she went home and shared his bed.

[Adam]

Out of interest why do you think Jeremy has spent so many years going over and over the evidence to prove his innocence when at one stage he could have been in line for parole if he had admitted guilt .

And by the way I am still waiting for that one piece of forensic evidence that proves he is responsible .

Perfectly clean front of hands on Sheila.   

One blood mark on back of hand of Sheila. 

Extremley low levels of lead found on hands on Sheila.  Not consistent with handling a rifle. Significantly higher traces expected.

Well manicured nails on Sheila. 

No broken nails.

Nails in tact.

No marks or indentations on Sheila's fingers. 

No blood on finger tips.

No dirt on finger tips.

No powder on finger tips.

No trace of any lead dust coating on fingers.

No traces of the lubricant on fingers from re loading twice.

Very clean feet in comparison to June.

Feet free from major blood staining.

No debris such as sugar on feet

No mention of foot injuries after bare footed aggressive movement around big house & brutal fight.

No injuries in photos to neck, shoulders, legs, arms & face.

Only Sheila Caffell's blood on nightdress.

No presence of firearm residue on nightdress.

No presence of firearm residue on Sheila.

No trace of rifle oil on nightdress

No mention of nightdress damage from agressive movement and brutal kitchen fight.

Impossibility of shower removing evidence off Sheila.

Impossibility of Sheila showering after killing herself.

Nevill being bare footed in pyjamas as if just got up.

Sheila being bare footed in pyjamas as if just got up.

Paint in silencer.

Blood in silencer.

No blood in the rifle end.

Sheila's legs pulled after second shot as suggested by expert.

Sheila's blood underneath the bible.

Effects of Haloperidol.

Sheila having Haloperidol in her body.

Sheila's condition hours before the massacre.

Sheila under sedation.

Easy window entrance into WHF.

Shutting kitchen window from outside. 20 sources. 

No alternative murder weapon options.

Professor Herbert Leon Mcdonell.

Items around the kitchen window being moved. 

Easy bike route to WHF.

Bike at Bamber's cottage.

June not waking/getting shot in bed.

Nevill's back burns.

2012 CCRC court judgement.

The twins not waking.

Bamber's huge advantages over Sheila in a kitchen fight.

Bamber's call to the police rounding suspects to two.

Nevill's injuries. 

Sheila's time limits.

No valid Sheila scenario.

[Jan]

Reasons why Julie identified the twins

She wanted to be helpful.  IF SHE WANTED TO BNE HELPFUL SHE COULD HAVE TOLD THE POLICE WHILE SHE WAS ALONE WITH THEM

She was not as upset as everyone else. As was not related to any of the deceased.  SO HER BOYFRIEND KILLED TWO CHILDREN  THAT SHE KNEW WELL ENOUGH TO ID ,SHE KNEW HE HAD DONE IT AND SHE WAS NOT UPSET

Another person volunteered but the police rejected the offer.  SO ?

She still didn't believe or was not sure Bamber was guilty.  SO HE  HAD THREATENED TO BURN THEM POISON THEM AND ON THE NIGHT SHE SAID SHE KNEW HE HAD DONE IT  BUT SHE WAS NOT SURE ?

She was asked to. SHE COULD HAVE SAID NO

She was not doing anything useful or constructive,  as had been whisked over by Bamber. So offered, or was asked. YOU ARE RIGHT THERE .SHE COULD HAVE USEFULLY AND CONSTRUCTIVELY TOLD THE POLICE ALL THAT SHE KNEW .


Bamber seemed to be coping well, and could cope for a short period while Julie went to identify the bodies. WHAT HAS THAT GOT TO DO WITH ANYTHING.?

She went with another relative to give moral support. THE RELATIVE DID NOT GO IN SO NEEDED NO SUPPORT

If she didn't go with another relative, then she would have originally assumed she would be accompanied. ??

She believed Bamber was guilty, identifying the twins is no worse than being by his side as he acted.AGAIN YOUR POINT SEEMS CONFUSED

She knew the twins and could identify them.  YES BUT WHY DO IT WHEN SHE KNEW JEREMY HAD KILLED THE M  DID SHE NOT LOVE CHILDREN ?
I
Bamber didn't offer to do this.   HOW DO YOU KNOW HE WAS EVEN ASKED.?

No one else offerred.

Her WS was true and she felt she could communicate with them. SO YOU DO BELIEVE SHE KNEW HE WAS GUILTY WHEN SHE WENT TO THE MORTUARY. .?

She offered in error. But couldn't withdraw once the offer had been made. HMMMMM

She wanted a break from the crime scene and police. Which was a situation she had not asked to be a part of. OH YES OF COURSE GOING TO ID MULIPLE DEAD BODIES GAVE HER A BREAK

She believed seeing the twins would help her come to terms with what had happened. OH THATS OK THEN

She was in the room when discussions about who would do this started. So not surprising she ended up doing this.

If not in the room, Bamber or someone else recommended to the police Julie could do this.

The police felt Julie was the best person. She could identify the twins but had least emotional attachment.

She had little attachment to the twins. They were her boyfriends sisters, sons.

Bamber had brought her over in a police car. She assumed this was so she could be helpful. Identifying the bodies is being helpful.

No one tried to stop her identifying the twins.

A combination of several of the above.

                                   ---------------

Well the only reason JackieD has ever given is that Julie identified the twins.

Believing she would act differently at Julie's age & her predicted reaction represents everyone. She even created a thread addressed to me on this.

See my points IN CAPITALS above , I just really could not go on answering your "Points" as really they just seem just disrespectful of the whole situation .

I would have believed you more if you had said Jeremy had promised her half the inheritance so she was in on it all then he dumped her .

Perhaps you should think about that because none of the above makes sense , at all .

[Adam]

Adam I have read all the points you have made with regard to Julie identifying the twins.  IMO Julie could not have done this if she had known her boyfriend was responsible for the death of those two wee innocent little boys.  After this traumatic experience she went home and shared his bed.

She wouldn't have done it if Bamber hadn't have got a police car to pick her up & told her 'not to go to work'.

[Jan]

Perfectly clean front of hands on Sheila.   

One blood mark on back of hand of Sheila. 

Extremley low levels of lead found on hands on Sheila.  Not consistent with handling a rifle. Significantly higher traces expected.

Well manicured nails on Sheila. 

No broken nails.

Nails in tact.

No marks or indentations on Sheila's fingers. 

No blood on finger tips.

No dirt on finger tips.

No powder on finger tips.

No trace of any lead dust coating on fingers.

No traces of the lubricant on fingers from re loading twice.

Very clean feet in comparison to June.

Feet free from major blood staining.

No debris such as sugar on feet

No mention of foot injuries after bare footed aggressive movement around big house & brutal fight.

No injuries in photos to neck, shoulders, legs, arms & face.

Only Sheila Caffell's blood on nightdress.

No presence of firearm residue on nightdress.

No presence of firearm residue on Sheila.

No trace of rifle oil on nightdress

No mention of nightdress damage from agressive movement and brutal kitchen fight.

Impossibility of shower removing evidence off Sheila.

Impossibility of Sheila showering after killing herself.

Nevill being bare footed in pyjamas as if just got up.

Sheila being bare footed in pyjamas as if just got up.

Paint in silencer.

Blood in silencer.

No blood in the rifle end.

Sheila's legs pulled after second shot as suggested by expert.

Sheila's blood underneath the bible.

Effects of Haloperidol.

Sheila having Haloperidol in her body.

Sheila's condition hours before the massacre.

Sheila under sedation.

Easy window entrance into WHF.

Shutting kitchen window from outside. 20 sources. 

No alternative murder weapon options.

Professor Herbert Leon Mcdonell.

Items around the kitchen window being moved. 

Easy bike route to WHF.

Bike at Bamber's cottage.

June not waking/getting shot in bed.

Nevill's back burns.

2012 CCRC court judgement.

The twins not waking.

Bamber's huge advantages over Sheila in a kitchen fight.

Bamber's call to the police rounding suspects to two.

Nevill's injuries. 

Sheila's time limits.

No valid Sheila scenario.

Nope . They are your reasons . They are not forensic proof of Jeremy being responsible .

Each one of those has an answer .

So let's get back to the thread .

[Jan]

She wouldn't have done it if Bamber hadn't have got a police car to pick her up & told her 'not to go to work'.

That is pure assumption . She could have said no at any time .

[Adam]

Nope . They are your reasons . They are not forensic proof of Jeremy being responsible .

Each one of those has an answer .

So let's get back to the thread .

You did ask.

It is published evidence. A lot from the COA.

Bamber has not disputed most of this. Thread created.

[Jan]

Perhaps his notes are not complete?  Perhaps he described contamination separately from wounds.  You're really hanging on these notes mind 

There was a quote from him that said he did not put his reports in until ainsley was on the case? But surely EP would have asked for reports before then ? Or perhaps they did not because they did not think they were important ?