Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm

[David1819]

Im sure, if the images you or Bill have and they wasn't available at trial, will have to be looked at and if without a shadow of doubt show scratches, this then could form a basis and would cause concern.  I personally feel that the photo's were available at trial and the evidence was discussed and it's become even more evident reading court transcripts.

If it was available at trial it can still be used via arguing ineffective counsel.

[David1819]

Hmm! Methinks I touched a nerve

No you don't 

[Roch]

Hmm! Methinks I touched a nerve

Possibly - but if you are just going to constantly mock and dismiss - why don't you put your money where your mouth is and explain it?  If we who can see it are so brainwashed and stupid - then enlighten us all?

[maggie]

In other words - EP can stretch the truth by claiming that images were made available at trial, which were of sufficient clarity to allow the defence to see the wounds and challenge accordingly.  The CCRC will take their word (as they always do in this case) and reject any submissions regarding this topic.  This amounts to keeping him in prison 'on a technicality'.

They can keep him in on a technicality - but what they will not be able to do is stop people at large from learning that Sheila Caffell had fight injuries; Nevill Bamber had fight injuries; June Bamber had fight injuries; Jeremy Bamber had no injuries whatsoever.

JB can die in prison.. but people will draw their own conclusions.  This is not a case that paints the authorities in a good light.

I would hope in the above scenario public pressure would have some influence.  However, it's true the fact all the victims apparently have fight injuries on them and most of these have been hidden for some reason does not mean JB would necessarily be allowed another appeal. 
If JB is innocent and has been imprisoned for over 30 years it is a massive tragedy for him and a massive disgrace to our criminal justice system. 
We can argue forever over who did what and why, refuse to contemplate what doesn't fit our own scenario but the bottom line is the truth.
It's not about what we think or more importantly how the CCRC would react but about what is and the fact is that there are highly suspect marks on Sheila's right hand and arm, Nevill has similar marks which have been shown more clearly and have not bled in the same way, probably because his blood was sticky and we are told June has the same or similar marks on her. 
It's very unlikely JB could have sustained similar marks on his hands and arms and been able to have hidden them.  Those kind of wounds don't heal overnight.
It is surely right to question and keep an open mind, the fact that Sheila, June and Nevill all had similar marks is interesting and challenging. The fact it conflicts with other evidence isn't a reason to prove the marks don't exist but is a reason to question everything imo.

[guest7363]

If it was available at trial it can still be used via arguing ineffective counsel.

Its probably a grey area and to be truthful you could be right, but I'm no expert on this.  Ineffective counsel, do you mean his defence failing to spot the scratches and questioning the evidence provided by witnesses by bringing in their own experts?

[mike tesko]

Mike used to claim the images used at trial were poor quality - I do not know where he got that information from.  Mike - if you are reading this - can you elaborate?

Some of the images used during the trial were extracted from the video footage that was taken by the first SOCO team (DC Oakey, and DC Henderson), after senior officers had completed their 'informatives', staging the scene! These images were grainy! But, once the second team of SOCO took control of the crime scene after 10am, onwards, PC Birds photographs were much clearer! The problem is though, that not all 581 photographs taken at the scene were used in court, only about 50 were! These were presented under the general heading, ' Court Album', and separated by coloured pieces of card! The reason why some of the images I have previously posted up on this forum are grainy, is because I took photographs of the actual photographs when we went down to the offices of 'GDS', in London by invitation! You can see the flash in some of the photographs I took of photographs! In any event, the defence team were only allowed to view 223 photographs (Master Copy Album) at the police station, the other 358 were kept from them! Considering that the official court album only contained 50 photographs, it means that the court never got to see the other 531 photographs, which is astonishing! At least two of these missing photographs I have seen, with Sheila on top of the bed, minus the gun, only shot once! Imagine the impact those two photographs would have had on the outcome of Bambers trial!

[Jane]

Its probably a grey area and to be truthful you could be right, but I'm no expert on this.  Ineffective counsel, do you mean his defence failing to spot the scratches and questioning the evidence provided by witnesses by bringing in their own experts?

One might believe it to be a tad late in the day to raise the cry "Ineffective counsel" of a trial which took place 32 years ago?

[Roch]

One might believe it to be a tad late in the day to raise the cry "Ineffective counsel" of a trial which took place 32 years ago?

One might believe 2011 is a tad too late for EP/CCRC to provide negatives for lab blow-up?

[guest7363]

One might believe it to be a tad late in the day to raise the cry "Ineffective counsel" of a trial which took place 32 years ago?

I would think everyone convicted of a crime could use this excuse, it was the first one my son in law used after pleading guilty.

[Jane]

Possibly - but if you are just going to constantly mock and dismiss - why don't you put your money where your mouth is and explain it?  If we who can see it are so brainwashed and stupid - then enlighten us all?

Just a moment, Roch. Before you accuse me of mocking and dismissing, I suggest YOU put your money where your mouth is and reveal exactly WHAT is that carrot you've been dangling in front of us since you came back saying you had information which wasn't yours to reveal. From where I'm sitting, it sounds very much like taunt..................or, if I'm being generous, tease.

[Roch]

Some of the images used during the trial were extracted from the video footage that was taken by the first SOCO team (DC Oakey, and DC Henderson), after senior officers had completed their 'informatives', staging the scene! These images were grainy! But, once the second team of SOCO took control of the crime scene after 10am, onwards, PC Birds photographs were much clearer! The problem is though, that not all 581 photographs taken at the scene were used in court, only about 50 were! These were presented under the general heading, ' Court Album', and separated by coloured pieces of card! The reason why some of the images I have previously posted up on this forum are grainy, is because I took photographs of the actual photographs when we went down to the offices of 'GDS', in London by invitation! You can see the flash in some of the photographs I took of photographs! In any event, the defence team were only allowed to view 223 photographs (Master Copy Album) at the police station, the other 358 were kept from them! Considering that the official court album only contained 50 photographs, it means that the court never got to see the other 531 photographs, which is astonishing! At least two of these missing photographs I have seen, with Sheila on top of the bed, minus the gun, only shot once! Imagine the impact those two photographs would have had on the outcome of Bambers trial!

Thanks for your response Mike.  We are trying to ascertain the likely quality of images used at trial, for Sheila's right hand and right arm.

[mike tesko]

I would hope in the above scenario public pressure would have some influence.  However, it's true the fact all the victims apparently have fight injuries on them and most of these have been hidden for some reason does not mean JB would necessarily be allowed another appeal. 
If JB is innocent and has been imprisoned for over 30 years it is a massive tragedy for him and a massive disgrace to our criminal justice system. 
We can argue forever over who did what and why, refuse to contemplate what doesn't fit our own scenario but the bottom line is the truth.
It's not about what we think or more importantly how the CCRC would react but about what is and the fact is that there are highly suspect marks on Sheila's right hand and arm, Nevill has similar marks which have been shown more clearly and have not bled in the same way, probably because his blood was sticky and we are told June has the same or similar marks on her. 
It's very unlikely JB could have sustained similar marks on his hands and arms and been able to have hidden them.  Those kind of wounds don't heal overnight.
It is surely right to question and keep an open mind, the fact that Sheila, June and Nevill all had similar marks is interesting and challenging. The fact it conflicts with other evidence isn't a reason to prove the marks don't exist but is a reason to question everything imo.

Yes, Maggie, and in addition to the fact that the three adult victims all have these marks or blood on their arms, is the fact that when Sheila's nightdress was examined on 6th September 1985, blood types 'A' (301, 2+02, 2+03, 2+02) and 'O' (003, 003, 003, 002+, 003) were found to be present fuelling the argument in favour of Sheila being the shooter!

[guest7363]

One might believe 2011 is a tad too late for EP/CCRC to provide negatives for lab blow-up?

I thought Bill had photo's that show 28 scratches and these were being looked at?  This one he put up was just one of them and he had evidence of scratches elsewhere?

[Adam]

After 32 years Roch is running with Bill's claim that blood smudges in one photo show gouges. Which refutes several expert testimonies.

The gouges made either by the twins after being shot 8 times in bed, June after being shot 5 times in bed, or Nevill who could apparently not fight back.

I think he believes if he says it enough times, it will become accepted on the forum.

[Adam]

I thought Bill had photo's that show 28 scratches and these were being looked at?  This one he put up was just one of them and he had evidence of scratches elsewhere?

Bill said he has seen photographs. But he can't post them as they are not his.

The 28 scratches must all be underneath Sheila's undamaged nightie. As her visible feet, legs, arms, hands, shoulders, neck, & face had none.

Obviously it's not worthy of discussion.