Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm

[David1819]

Good for you, but aren't you also one of those people that ask others to post proof? I'm not saying it's not the case BUT, I'm sure you don't like blind faith either.

There is a lot being claimed at he moment and if it all points to an innocent Jeremy, why wouldn't you post it? I just don't get it!

I have not been reading 90% of the forum lately. I've been signing in intermittently. You would have to ask who ever is claiming what.

[Adam]

According to the prosecution, there were no cuts on her hand either _ can't answer why Jeremy would put the bible over the stain, perhaps to give them impression the stain was caused by the carpet blood - which is what the 2002 appeal argued (although that can't be true).

This is how I think the nightdress and the bible became stained.

I doubt that Bamber thought too much about where he put June's bible. As long as it was very near Sheila. To give the murder/suicide a religious slant.

The bible wasn't just near Sheila. It was touching her.

[Roch]

Blood is a non Newtonian fluid (does not follow Newton's law of viscosity)

Blood has adhesive properties and it does not go from fluid to dry. depending on the amount It quickly turns into a semi fluid gel that gets less and less fluid until it eventually becomes completely dry.

Blood can be fluid and remain still without gravity moving it.

Is this your possible explanation for the darker spots? 

[Harry]

I think the trails are from her hand. I think Bamber made the palm print on the bible from blood on her hand, placed the bible on her lap leaving the stain of bloodied finger marks on her nightdress, which ended in a straight line (because of the bible). I think it thought it looked too staged and he wouldn't have been able to stage the rifle. I think he changed his mind and put the bible on the floor - upturned.

I am not sure that your attempt to form a "Jeremy did it" scenario out of your previous position on the bible question really works.  People can read your main post on the subject and make up their own minds. You have given your reasons for thinking it would have been impossible for Jeremy to have placed the bible on the floor and that it must have somebody other than Jeremy, namely the police.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4616.msg191520.html#msg191520

From your Post number 271:

This is a FACT and not a scenario or a what if or even a maybe. It is also something that the 2002 appeal got completely WRONG when they stated

"The largest area of blood seems to
have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood
beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut
whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still
wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this
is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body
after Sheila Caffell had been shot"

The stain COULD NOT have been from the carpet because it is on the wrong page of the open bible!! It is obviously a hand print.

But think about this ..... The COA state categorically that the blood must have been 'wet' when the bible was closed and opened later by the 'killer' before being placed on the floor over the stain next to Sheila. So, IF it was placed there by Jeremy just after shooting Sheila the pool of blood would have to be wet at the time it was placed there  - so why is there no stain on the page that would have been face down on top of the blood? The stain MUST have been dry when the bible was placed there and as such could not have been placed there by Jeremy Bamber. The COA were WRONG and as such, this point should still be valid in future submissions!!

It also begs the question of who placed the bible on top of the blood stain (and why) - because it wasn't Jeremy and it wasn't Jeremy because it was placed there when the stain was dry. It proves that the scene was staged, but more importantly, that it was staged by someone OTHER  than Jeremy Bamber!!

[maggie]

Blood is a non Newtonian fluid (does not follow Newton's law of viscosity)

Blood has adhesive properties and it does not go from fluid to dry. depending on the amount It quickly turns into a semi fluid gel that gets less and less fluid until it eventually becomes completely dry.

Blood can be fluid and remain still without gravity moving it.

The behaviour of blood depends on it's velocity, unsticky, healthy blood or blood thinned by anti coagulants will run freely and copiously and have a lower clotting rate while blood from an older person, particularly if they have a high clotting rate will be thicker and stickier, more likely to congeal rather than flow.

[Adam]

Who placed the bible on Sheila's arm & on top of blood,  if the crime scene was staged but it wasn't Bamber ?

Don't tell me it was bungling EP again.  After seeing two bodies in the kitchen, knocking over everything upon entrance, not noticing Sheila go upstairs before shooting her.  Then moving her off the bed,  pulling her legs, putting a rifle across her & a bible on her.

[Caroline]

I am not sure that your attempt to form a "Jeremy did it" scenario out of your previous position on the bible question really works.  People can read your main post on the subject and make up their own minds. You have given your reasons for thinking it would have been impossible for Jeremy to have placed the bible on the floor and that it must have somebody other than Jeremy, namely the police.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4616.msg191520.html#msg191520

From your Post number 271:

This is a FACT and not a scenario or a what if or even a maybe. It is also something that the 2002 appeal got completely WRONG when they stated

"The largest area of blood seems to
have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood
beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut
whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still
wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this
is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body
after Sheila Caffell had been shot"

The stain COULD NOT have been from the carpet because it is on the wrong page of the open bible!! It is obviously a hand print.

But think about this ..... The COA state categorically that the blood must have been 'wet' when the bible was closed and opened later by the 'killer' before being placed on the floor over the stain next to Sheila. So, IF it was placed there by Jeremy just after shooting Sheila the pool of blood would have to be wet at the time it was placed there  - so why is there no stain on the page that would have been face down on top of the blood? The stain MUST have been dry when the bible was placed there and as such could not have been placed there by Jeremy Bamber. The COA were WRONG and as such, this point should still be valid in future submissions!!

It also begs the question of who placed the bible on top of the blood stain (and why) - because it wasn't Jeremy and it wasn't Jeremy because it was placed there when the stain was dry. It proves that the scene was staged, but more importantly, that it was staged by someone OTHER  than Jeremy Bamber!!

Oh yes I can, because you can't actually tell if the bible is on top of the blood or not. This was the COA's suggestion, not mine - I was pointing out they THEY were incorrect about the stain coming from the carpet.

[Jan]

Who placed the bible on Sheila's arm & on top of blood,  if the crime scene was staged but it wasn't Bamber ?

Don't tell me it was bungling EP again.  After seeing two bodies in the kitchen, knocking over everything upon entrance, not noticing Sheila go upstairs before shooting her.  Then moving her off the bed,  pulling her legs, putting a rifle across her & a bible on her.

? But they did report two bodies in the kitchen? They did admit that they probably knocked over chairs etc when they went in? They did call out to sheila when they went in? They did move her hand at least during the photos? Early officers said they did not see the rifle on the body and that the bible was in a different position , specifically at waist height away from the body?

You see all you have said has come from EP , not posters ? So how on earth is the truth supposed to be found? You are blaming the wrong people in your sarcastic posts .

[Roch]

You aren't in the least bit interested in anything Roch had to say.  You denied point blank that Sheila had scratches and cuts on her hand which could be seen on the photo put up by Bill or that the marks on her arm from photos in the archives just maybe have been nail marks which had bled. Why should anyone bother to say anymore about it if people are just going to ridicule it? 
I thought the debate was about the truth not about scoring points.

Yes.  I cannot imagine Roch would be so gullible as to make such claims unless he was absolutely certain in his own mind that what he had seen was valid and worth supporting.  He's not a fool.
Anyone can accept there may be something in it but argue that even if they can see the marks there may be other reasons why Sheila was marked other than her being guilty of the killings, that is fair enough as we are all free to have our own opinions but I believe the claims still deserved serious consideration.

Maggie - just wanted to say thanks for your support and recognition of the wounds regarding the right hand of Sheila. 

I know you worked this out for your self already - but for the benefit of anybody interested..  If you look properly at the images on the forum of her right arm, it becomes obvious that some of the darker spots on her arm just dont look right - within the context of the claim that they represent an accumulation of blood at the end of 'runs' from her neck wound.  Some of them stop completely dead in their tracks - as if they were phyisically impeded from travelling further - ie. by obstructions - yet there are no such obstructions present.  The reason for this seeming anomally, is that the dark spots are actually the source (or in some cases very cose to the source) of the blood runs.  They have nothing to do with the neck wound.  Her right arm was attacked in a desperate life or death struggle. 

Sheila's right arm would have been extremely raw - though I get the sense that she 'did not feel it'.  It would most certainly have been felt the following day - had she survived in a conscious state and without pain relief.

[David1819]

Some of them stop completely dead in their tracks - as if they were phyisically impeded from travelling further - ie. by obstructions - yet there are no such obstructions present.

That's what blood can do. Its a non-newtonian fluid.

[Caroline]

That's what blood can do. Its a non-newtonian fluid.

Don't really like agreeing with you but in this instance .....

[Adam]

Maggie - just wanted to say thanks for your support and recognition of the wounds regarding the right hand of Sheila. 

I know you worked this out for your self already - but for the benefit of anybody interested..  If you look properly at the images on the forum of her right arm, it becomes obvious that some of the darker spots on her arm just dont look right - within the context of the claim that they represent an accumulation of blood at the end of 'runs' from her neck wound.  Some of them stop completely dead in their tracks - as if they were phyisically impeded from travelling further - ie. by obstructions - yet there are no such obstructions present.  The reason for this seeming anomally, is that the dark spots are actually the source (or in some cases very cose to the source) of the blood runs.  They have nothing to do with the neck wound.  Her right arm was attacked in a desperate life or death struggle. 

Sheila's right arm would have been extremely raw - though I get the sense that she 'did not feel it'.  It would most certainly have been felt the following day - had she survived in a conscious state and without pain relief.

Hopefully you will answer my questions soon about the rifle and whether the evidence you saw in March 2017 is with Bamber's legal team. Something me, Susan & the rest of the forum would be interested to know.

I did ask these questions several times & created a thread called 'Roch's suggestion yesterday that Bamber should have used a different weapon '. So not sure why Maggie said I'm not interested in what you have to say. In the same post I was attacked for having an opinion thst Sheila's hand had smudged blood rather than scratches. After one of Bill's brief & rare forum visits.

[Roch]

That's what blood can do. Its a non-newtonian fluid.

In the image you have shown, the runs appear to be of equal viscosity along their length. They are not essentially fainter trails that end in a darker accumulation, like a 'spot'.  The man's back also has considerably larger breadth and surface area for the blood to travel - in comparison to Sheila's arm. We also don't know the nature the wound which caused those runs.

[David1819]

In the image you have shown, the runs appear to be of equal viscosity along their length. They are not essentially fainter trails that end in a darker accumulation, like a 'spot'.  The man's back also has considerably larger breadth and surface area for the blood to travel - in comparison to Sheila's arm. We also don't know the nature the wound which caused those runs.

It is blood from the neck wound. Sheila had to put her arm out in order to push the trigger and that's how the blood got there.

Incase you missed it. I posted CCTV footage the other day of a man committing suicide with a rifle. He lands in the same position as Sheila with the gun in same position also. For some daft reason it was removed as 'inappropriate' despite the forum having a library full of even more gory and graphic content. 

[Jan]

It is blood from the neck wound. Sheila had to put her arm out in order to push the trigger and that's how the blood got there.

Incase you missed it. I posted CCTV footage the other day of a man committing suicide with a rifle. He lands in the same position as Sheila with the gun in same position also. For some daft reason it was removed as 'inappropriate' despite the forum having a library full of even more gory and graphic content. 

So are you saying she was in a sitting position and leant forward to pull the trigger?

That makes sense and links up with a post alias made ages ago about the same pattern appearing when someone had a nose bleed onto their arm .