Reconstruction of the Kitchen

[Jane]

Don't think they would have done if they had known

And don't forget when she was in a psychotic episode before she did not even recognise who was with her .

But she was totally unmedicated then.

[Steve_uk]

But she was totally unmedicated then.

..and she did miraculously calm down when Nevill appeared.

[Adam]

..and she did miraculously calm down when Nevill appeared.

That is what I read as well.

Nevill couldn't calm her down on the massacre night. Maybe Bamber would have. If he had actually entered WHF after Nevill's call.

[Steve_uk]

That is what I read as well. Nevill couldn't calm her down on the massacre night. Maybe Bamber would have. If he had actually entered WHF after Nevill's call.

None of these murders-White House Farm, Every Street, Hungerford, Dunblane, happen in a vacuum. There's an inherent alienation, a grudge which festers over many years, only to burst open and explode within a very short space of time.

[Jan]

And so now every psychotic episode has a pattern as well ?

And there was a lot of statements about whether her medication was correct? Wrong doses given .

And are you saying that no one ever had an episode whilst on that particular medication ?

And how do we know she was taking what was prescribed in the correct doses ?

And not taken other drugs in the proceeding days ? Because we know her doctor was concerned about that ?

[Jane]

And so now every psychotic episode has a pattern as well ?

And there was a lot of statements about whether her medication was correct? Wrong doses given .

And are you saying that no one ever had an episode whilst on that particular medication ?

And how do we know she was taking what was prescribed in the correct doses ?

And not taken other drugs in the proceeding days ? Because we know her doctor was concerned about that ?

I doubt it's any more true that there are similar patterns to psychotic episodes, that that everyone kills whilst having a psychotic episode.

There were, indeed, discussions regarding the dosage of her medication.

It can no more be said that "no one ever had an episode whilst on that medication" that it can be said that everyone on that dose will experience an episode.

We know that one dose was taken because it was given by injection. Her oral drugs were to counteract the side effects of the higher dose of injected drug.

I'm not certain how her doctor would have known what she was taking in the way of recreational drugs as he never saw her again after she left hospital at the end of March.

[Jan]

I doubt it's any more true that there are similar patterns to psychotic episodes, that that everyone kills whilst having a psychotic episode.

There were, indeed, discussions regarding the dosage of her medication.

It can no more be said that "no one ever had an episode whilst on that medication" that it can be said that everyone on that dose will experience an episode.

We know that one dose was taken because it was given by injection. Her oral drugs were to counteract the side effects of the higher dose of injected drug.

I'm not certain how her doctor would have known what she was taking in the way of recreational drugs as he never saw her again after she left hospital at the end of March.

I did not say they knew , I said she was warned off taking drugs with her medication.

[lookout]

 It was Neville who'd had Sheila admitted in March 1985 because of deterioration of her mental state. At the time she thought Freddie was the Devil,she was restless and laughed inappropriately.

This is from Dr Ferguson's statement. He also knew she used cannabis and cocaine,but stated her psychotic attacks weren't drug induced,though would be exacerbated by the illicit drugs.

Even when Sheila was admitted in 1983,after an acute breakdown,her outlook was poor.
Sheila was a difficult patient and failed to take her medication and appointments.

[mike tesko]

I think there was some form of limited scuffle which surprised Jeremy as he had labelled them all callously in his mind as sitting ducks. I think Nevill managed to get a hand on the rifle and to manoeuvre it to smash the ceiling light, after which Jeremy became angry realizing it would be evidence left at the scene and that's when the overkill came into play with the broken stock and hale of bullets when Nevill was probably already dead.

the kitchen light got broken during the struggle in the kitchen between Sheila and Neville Bamber...

[Jane]

It was Neville who'd had Sheila admitted in March 1985 because of deterioration of her mental state. At the time she thought Freddie was the Devil,she was restless and laughed inappropriately.

This is from Dr Ferguson's statement. He also knew she used cannabis and cocaine,but stated her psychotic attacks weren't drug induced,though would be exacerbated by the illicit drugs.

Even when Sheila was admitted in 1983,after an acute breakdown,her outlook was poor.
Sheila was a difficult patient and failed to take her medication and appointments.

I think you'll find that the decision to admit Sheila a second time was made by doctors, not by Nevill, exactly BECAUSE she was suffering delusions.

It's true that Dr Ferguson said that her psychoses weren't drug induced. I wasn't aware that he'd said  they were "exacerbated" by recreational drugs.

It was for this very reason that it was decided Sheila would do better if the main drug -the antipsychotic- was injected, as opposed to being taken orally. It seems to me that all the other drugs she was taking were only counterbalances for the side effects of Haloperidol and had no other direct effect. In other words, by not taking them, she made her own daily life more difficult. I can perfectly well see that if the Haloperidol had been reduced, it might have made sense to reduce, correspondingly, those drugs she was taking to minimize side effects.

[Adam]

It seems that David isn't going provide 3D diagrams of the kitchen fight. Which is disappointing as he created this thread over a month ago saying it was 'almost done'.

He either had no intention of creating such 3D diagrams, which is similar to his 5th Sheila scenario committment. Or he realised how difficult it would be to include all the variables of a kitchen fight.

Creating 3D diagrams of Sheila firing 4 upstairs shots, complete with magical bullets is one thing. But creating 3D diagrams of a whole kitchen fight is something completely different.

[lookout]

I think you'll find that the decision to admit Sheila a second time was made by doctors, not by Nevill, exactly BECAUSE she was suffering delusions.

It's true that Dr Ferguson said that her psychoses weren't drug induced. I wasn't aware that he'd said  they were "exacerbated" by recreational drugs.

It was for this very reason that it was decided Sheila would do better if the main drug -the antipsychotic- was injected, as opposed to being taken orally. It seems to me that all the other drugs she was taking were only counterbalances for the side effects of Haloperidol and had no other direct effect. In other words, by not taking them, she made her own daily life more difficult. I can perfectly well see that if the Haloperidol had been reduced, it might have made sense to reduce, correspondingly, those drugs she was taking to minimize side effects.

The decision came from Neville,as in Ferguson's statement. Afterall it was Neville who'd picked her up the time that 2/3 doctors,couldn't,so it was he who'd known Sheila best and also the next appropriate move which had been hospital.
Non-medication and/or a reduction can bring on a random attack of psychosis which,because of its unpredictability,can endanger lives------and does.

[Adam]

It seems that David has completly abandoned this thread. Which would be fine if he wasn't the one who created it, with an 'almost done' promise.

To be fair he's in a rock & a hard place.

The only options are to say he never had any intention of creating the 3D diagrams in the first place. And just created this thread for no reason.

Or that creating 3D diagrams of the kitchen fight & including all variables proved to be too difficult.

A pity as I was looking forward to the diagrams & loved the bedroom's magical bouncing casings.

[Jan]

It seems that David has completly abandoned this thread. Which would be fine if wasn't the one who created it, with an 'almost done' promise.

To be fair he's in a rock & a hard place.

The only options are to say he never had any intention of creating the 3D diagrams and created this thread for no reason. Or that creating 3D diagrams of the kitchen fight & including all variables was too difficult.

A pity as I was looking forward to the diagrams & loved the magical casings.

Maybe he has got a life . Or looking at evidence even more interesting

[Adam]

Maybe he has got a life . Or looking at evidence even more interesting

Best not make promises he can't keep. I don't.

Not sure what is more interesting than the kitchen fight. Unless it's another 'forensic evidence breakthrough'.