Audio

[Jackiepreece]

Exactly Grahame

[curiousessex]

Curiousessex I didnt mention the hitman being involved but a number of forum members have that is why I am discussing that theory like all other theory I do read everyones posts even Mr Angrys

Jackie

I beleive the hitman theory was discredited by Essex Police as the supposed hitman had an alibi.

As I understand it the hitman theory was only investigated, and discounted, after Jeremy became a suspect.

Interesting that instead of rejecting Julie Mugford's story as fiction when the story of the hitman was discredited, They rather believed that Jeremy invented the story instead of Julie. Very strange that.

It would not be unreasonable for the Police to investigate all aspects of what Julie Mugford had reported that Jeremy had told her.

As I understand it Julie Mugford detailed that both Jeremy and her had burgled the caravan site. Jeremy confirmed this was true so not all Julie Mugford detailed was incorrect.

[ngb1066]

Ngb1066
Do you think that the huge sum of money that Jeremy could get in compensation could have a bearing on if this case was referred to the court of appeal and do any secret deals take place like we will let you if (i know it sounds far fetched and I dont want any details but do things like that go on)

I know in the Eddie Gilfoyle case he was freed but there was some sort of gagging order on him that he couldnt talk to the media.  I know he was fighting this

I have no direct evidence that the compensation issue influences the CCRC in their decisions about whether to refer cases back to the Court of Appeal.  It certainly should not be a factor as the CCRC commissioners are supposed to exercise their independent judgement on the  merits of an appeal only.  I think in this case the CCRC may be adopting a particularly cautious approach as they have already referred the case back to the Court of Appeal once and a second reference is rare (at the moment I cannot think of an example where this has happened but there may be some such cases). In addition in the 2002 appeal the Court of Appeal judges were very strong in their rejection of the new scientific evidence which formed the basis of the CCRC's referral, and even went out of their way to criticise the evidence of the new expert.  They also in a lengthy judgement dismissed every single point of appeal raised, in strong terms. Against this background I suspect the CCRC may fear criticism for making a second referral here and are therefore adopting a very wary approach to the new material presented by Jeremy Bamber's legal team.  They should of course look at the application purely on its merits, but the CCRC have come in for criticism of late (including from Bob Woffinden) and that may be affecting their approach.

There would be no gagging order on Jeremy Bamber if he wins an appeal.  Gagging orders can only be imposed where a life sentenced prisoner is released on licence.


   

[curiousessex]

Not forgetting Julie Mugford also confirmed Jeremy rang her in the evening of the night before and during the early hours of the following morning. This telephone call being heard by others at sometime between 3.00 am and 3.15 am. This potentially being a time before Jeremy receives an alleged telephone call from Nevill which allegedly reports Sheila going beserk with THE gun.

[ngb1066]

Part of me thinks if one lifted Jeremy's trial verbatim into a Criminal Court as of today the case would be thrown out but then again the rules are very different now. Some of those rules are different now because of what happened in Jeremy's case / police investigation and the mistakes that were made as a result of the initial conclusions of 4 murders and a suicide. It cannot be denied that Jeremy was involved in the reporting of key information / intel which meant the Police thought they were dealing with a live situation which involved someone going beserk with a gun. The eventual result was there were 5 people who lost their lives.

Another part of me thinks Jeremy possibly knows what really happened and knows the events portrayed in court which secured his conviction are not how things actually happened. In reality only Jeremy knows what really happened.

 

Does this make Jeremy to be proven guilty............ I honestly do not know but I do know when tried in 1986 by 12 of his peers 10 of them found him guilty on a majority verdict of 10 to 2.

Should Jeremy get another trial......... probably to settle all the controvosy.

Is there a risk the Crown may not be able to win a second trial. Most probably. Does that make Jeremy not guilty......... only Jeremy knows. If it is the case Jeremy did actually commit the murders and the Crown were not able to prove a case at retrial and Jeremy is given his freedom where does that leave us all?

curiousessex - you have summed up very clearly the dilemma faced by a number of members of this forum. I sense that there is a fairly widespread feeling that all was not right with the original trial, mainly because of the non disclosure of evidence by the DPP/Essex Police.  However a number of posters have said that whilst they are not satisfied that justice was done and that Jeremy Bamber's case requires fresh consideration by the Court of Appeal, they are not convinced of his innocence and because of the really dreadful nature of the crimes they do not want him to be released on a technicality.  I can understand those feelings and it is right that the debate on this forum should not just be about whether Jeremy Bamber has strong grounds for appeal but should also cover views on what in fact happened at WHF.

Looking at this from the legal viewpoint and from the viewpoint of basic fairness, if we take the view that Jeremy Bamber's trial was flawed and his convictions are therefore unsafe, his appeal should be allowed.  If the Court of Appeal orders a retrial, a jury can evaluate the evidence again.  I strongly suspect that he would be acquitted on a retrial.  However, as I have posted earlier today I believe that in view of the passage of time and the fact that important evidence has been destroyed, if the Court of Appeal allow the appeal there will not be a retrial.  Jeremy Bamber will be declared not guilty and immediately released from prison, but he will not have a second chance to present his case before a jury. However from what I have read if Jeremy Bamber is succesful in a third appeal he is unlikely to leave the matter there.  He will pursue civil action against Essex Police and possibly others and there might through that process be an opportunity for all the evidence to be tested again.

I am sorry that this is a rather lengthy post but I do think that it is important to accept that in order to succeeed in overturning his convictions Jeremy Bamber does not have to prove his innocence, he only has to show that there is a reasonable doubt about his guilt.  If there is such a doubt, all fair minded people should support his appeal being allowed and his release from imprisonment.

How ironic would it be if Jeremy was released and he then pursued Essex Police and others through the Courts for what I imagine would be very substantial compension. Money being the very motive portrayed in the original trial.

From the legal viewpoint do you beleive Jeremy would be successful in pursuit of civil action?

Are you from a legal background?

If he succeeds on appeal I believe that Jeremy Bamber would almost certainly be eligible for substantial compensation from the state under the discretionary scheme currently in place. Depending upon the evidence he now has available he could launch a civil claim for damages against Essex Police for malicious prosecution.  He would have to demonstrate, on a balance of probabilities, that Essex Police Officers falsified or withheld key evidence with a view to securing a conviction.  I do not have access to the latest evidence so it is not possible for me to assess the likelihood of success in such an action at this stage.

I do have a legal background.  I practised as a barrister for a number of years.

When did you give up practising as a Barrister? (If you do not mind me asking)

I do not mind you asking.  I left my chambers in the Temple in 1995.  I was in practice at the time of Jeremy's original trial.  I retain my qualification and could return to the bar (although that is unlikely).

[Paul]

Not forgetting Julie Mugford also confirmed Jeremy rang her in the evening of the night before and during the early hours of the following morning. This telephone call being heard by others at sometime between 3.00 am and 3.15 am. This potentially being a time before Jeremy receives an alleged telephone call from Nevill which allegedly reports Sheila going beserk with THE gun.

Yes, good point, according to that version, Jeremy was not therefore awoken by the call from Ralph.

[joolz1975]

Joolz are you someone that would like all the evidence released to jb s defence team

I would like ALL evidence released to all concerned! Whether it proves him innocent or guilty all evidence should be released!

[Paul]

Joolz are you someone that would like all the evidence released to jb s defence team

I would like ALL evidence released to all concerned! Whether it proves him innocent or guilty all evidence should be released!

I agree with this too. I'd like to also see Jeremy's original statement which is available but withheld from the forum

[curiousessex]

Joolz are you someone that would like all the evidence released to jb s defence team

I would like ALL evidence released to all concerned! Whether it proves him innocent or guilty all evidence should be released!

I agree with this too. I'd like to also see Jeremy's original statement which is available but withheld from the forum

Most definately............  I have been asking for Mike to release a copy of Jeremy's original statement for a long time.

Maybe a pole / vote should be organised........ does anyone know how to do this?

[Paul]

Bob and John??

It does seem strange to me to have graphic pictures of Sheila available and not the statement Jeremy made.

[joolz1975]

Joolz are you someone that would like all the evidence released to jb s defence team

I would like ALL evidence released to all concerned! Whether it proves him innocent or guilty all evidence should be released!

I agree with this too. I'd like to also see Jeremy's original statement which is available but withheld from the forum

I find this bizzare to be honest because JB is wanting all the information held unfer PFI (sorry it might not be PFI ,my brain has left me today) but on the other hand seems to be witholding a certain amount of info himself!

I feel like we are only reading what some people want us to read on here! If mike has the original statements he should show them rather than cherry pick what info he shares!

After all this isnt a Jeremy Bamber is innocent forum so all sides should be shown!

[curiousessex]

Joolz are you someone that would like all the evidence released to jb s defence team

I would like ALL evidence released to all concerned! Whether it proves him innocent or guilty all evidence should be released!

I agree with this too. I'd like to also see Jeremy's original statement which is available but withheld from the forum

I find this bizzare to be honest because JB is wanting all the information held unfer PFI (sorry it might not be PFI ,my brain has left me today) but on the other hand seems to be witholding a certain amount of info himself!

I feel like we are only reading what some people want us to read on here! If mike has the original statements he should show them rather than cherry pick what info he shares!

After all this isnt a Jeremy Bamber is innocent forum so all sides should be shown!

If we are only being told what people want us to beleive then one could interpret that as being consistant with the events when Jeremy was regarded as only a witness.

[John]

Joolz are you someone that would like all the evidence released to jb s defence team

I would like ALL evidence released to all concerned! Whether it proves him innocent or guilty all evidence should be released!

I agree with this too. I'd like to also see Jeremy's original statement which is available but withheld from the forum

Most definately............  I have been asking for Mike to release a copy of Jeremy's original statement for a long time.

Maybe a pole / vote should be organised........ does anyone know how to do this?

Well you all know why he won't release it don't you!  The story has become confused over time and now the errors are beginning to come to the fore.  Just like one minute the rifle was left on the kitchen table according to Jeremy and the next time it was on the kitchen settle.

Then there was the order of the telephone calls which he confused and now it is THE GUN and not THE RIFLE.   :D :D

[grahameb]

Joolz are you someone that would like all the evidence released to jb s defence team

I would like ALL evidence released to all concerned! Whether it proves him innocent or guilty all evidence should be released!

I wish we had a freedom of information act like America has. That way  everyone including the President in the case of the US, or those in high places can be called to account. In the British system those in influential places can escape justice and withold crucial evidence to protect themselves from investigation.

[curiousessex]

We do have a Freedom of Information Act.