Kitchen telephone

[lookout]

I know what I said, Lookout. It was a straightforward question. I have no responsibility in how you choose to read it.

I'm perfectly certain that you believe EP responsible for reducing/destroying documents. It's said here on an almost daily basis and chanted like a mantra. The Bamber case is certainly not the only one in which a conviction has been given on mostly circumstantial evidence. I'm inclined to believe it's spite which causes some to say it was out of such that Julie gave her evidence.

Once upon a time you too thought that JM's statements were a disgrace. I can understand you changing from innocent to guilty,but can't understand why you would change your mind with what are deemed to be lies which JM rattled off.

[Reader]

I disagree, because the operator could not patch through an exchange line call from whf in that era, because of the old type of exchange system, the only way the operator could patch the line through from the farmhouse to the police using the 999 system, was if Nevill's call (or at least one of them) had in fact been a 999 call! I was told this by telephone engineers

There was obviously some misunderstanding. If the WHF line had completed a 999 call (by hanging up) and then been left off-hook, the prior 999 call would be irrelevant to the current status. If the 999 call hadn't been completed, the operator wouldn't have told Pc West that the receiver was simply off-hook. The operator made a statement in which she said that she connected the WHF line to the police HQ without using the 999 system, because she wasn't allowed to use the 999 system for that purpose.

Pc West may have used a second line to try to make that call, hence why he would get an engaged tone!

It doesn't matter what line Pc West was using, as the engaged tone implies that the WHF line wasn't available. The operator told Pc West that the engaged tone was because the receiver at WHF was off-hook.

Failing that, Nevilles 3.26am call may not have changed into a 999 status until much later in the early hours of the morning

There is no evidence that the WHF line ever had a 999 status.

. . . the operator reported she could hear a dog barking when she reported the phone at the farm being off the hook

At 3:42am (according to Pc West's log),  the operator told Pc West that the explanation of the engaged tone was that the receiver at WHF was off-hook. She didn't mention hearing a dog barking until later on, after another line check had been requested. On that later occasion, the line was still engaged due to being off-hook, but there was a new piece of information, that a dog had been heard barking. The line's status hadn't changed. What the operator could hear, whether a dog barking, sounds possibly caused by the raid team, or anything else of that nature, had no bearing on the line status. The line remained engaged because it was off-hook. Whether the police happened to write "off-hook" or "engaged" in their log on each occasion is irrelevant.

. . . why would it suddenly become engaged at 5.47am?

It didn't suddenly become engaged. It was necessarily engaged at all times when the receiver was off-hook.

. . . at 6.08am...

The police log suggests that the police asked the operator to switch the line to the police HQ using the 999 system, but the operator explained in her statement that she connected the WHF line to the police HQ using a normal exchange line, not the 999 system (which she wasn't allowed to use for that purpose).

. . . somebody inside the farmhouse made a 999 emergency call requesting ambulances

I've seen no evidence that the WHF line was used to make a 999 call for that purpose or that any 999 call was used to request the ambulances. However, the police could have asked for ambulances to attend using that line whilst it was off-hook and being listened to by the operator. I haven't seen anything to indicate that occurred, but it's technically possible. I think it's more likely that the police at WHF used their radio instead.

[Jane]

Once upon a time you too thought that JM's statements were a disgrace. I can understand you changing from innocent to guilty,but can't understand why you would change your mind with what are deemed to be lies which JM rattled off.

Yes. I hold my hands up to it. I'll even go as far as to say that Julie MAY have gone to the police after he dumped her because she felt safe to do that. It doesn't make her a liar, though. WAY too many people have been called liars in an effort to prove that Jeremy is innocent. It stands to reason that they can't all be such. If you're going to say that each of them had a motive, it must make Jeremy the most disliked person in the whole of Essex prior to the murders, and that everyone of those who 'framed' him had been biding their time until they could find a way to do so.

[susan]

There's no getting away from the fact that you'd implied that's what I'd said.
However-----all the altering/editing reducing volume of certain statements ( probably by destruction ) was done by EP and those on the side of the prosecution.
Because of the sheer reduction of documents meant for the defence,I'd hardly imagine that any of those would have been altered in any way.

The prosecution only presented those documents which they'd cherry-picked to make the biggest impact------the silencer,which had been an afterthought and JM's ramblings which were written out of spite. What else was there when no evidence was found that connected JB to the murders ?

Hello lookout IMO EP have evidence that shows Sheila murdered her family then herself.  Sadly they may have destroyed it when they burnt evidence against the Courts instructions it must have been items they did not want anyone else to see

[notsure]

Yes. I hold my hands up to it. I'll even go as far as to say that Julie MAY have gone to the police after he dumped her because she felt safe to do that. It doesn't make her a liar, though. WAY too many people have been called liars in an effort to prove that Jeremy is innocent. It stands to reason that they can't all be such. If you're going to say that each of them had a motive, it must make Jeremy the most disliked person in the whole of Essex prior to the murders, and that everyone of those who 'framed' him had been biding their time until they could find a way to do so.

was she a liar when you thought he was innocent Jane. . ? Or did you believe what she had said was the truth then.

[JackieD]

Once upon a time you too thought that JM's statements were a disgrace. I can understand you changing from innocent to guilty,but can't understand why you would change your mind with what are deemed to be lies which JM rattled off.

Lookout it has proved without a doubt that Mugford is a pathological liar. She has even held her hands up to the fact. Most people on this forum agree with this and that's why there are only a handful of people on this forum who believe Jeremy is guilty.
The next documentary that airs I am sure she will have the chance to have her say about her involvement in the WHF murders. I believe it will be detrimental for her not to be involved

[Jane]

was she a liar when you thought he was innocent Jane. . ? Or did you believe what she had said was the truth then.

Notsure, I'm pretty certain, back then, I thought she'd acted out of vengeance because he'd dumped her, but there are ALWAYS two sides to the same story and looking at it from the OTHER side, it was starting to feel as if everyone connected with the case -that is EVERYONE. The whole kit and caboodle- were HAVING to be said to be liars and incompetents, in order for Jeremy to be innocent. It simply ceased to make any sort of sense. Add to that 20/25 wasted minutes of diddling through a phone book and a call to Julie -for no reason, other than to tell her everything was going well- BEFORE calling the police following a "panicked" call from his father at silly o'clock to say that his sister had gone mad and had hold of a gun, and suddenly, Jeremy doesn't appear quite as innocent.

[Jane]

Lookout it has proved without a doubt that Mugford is a pathological liar. She has even held her hands up to the fact. Most people on this forum agree with this and that's why there are only a handful of people on this forum who believe Jeremy is guilty.
The next documentary that airs I am sure she will have the chance to have her say about her involvement in the WHF murders. I believe it will be detrimental for her not to be involved

Please point us all to where Julie has held up her hands and confessed to being a liar. I feel perfectly confident that she won't be taking part in any documentary any time soon.

[notsure]

Notsure, I'm pretty certain, back then, I thought she'd acted out of vengeance because he'd dumped her, but there are ALWAYS two sides to the same story and looking at it from the OTHER side, it was starting to feel as if everyone connected with the case -that is EVERYONE. The whole kit and caboodle- were HAVING to be said to be liars and incompetents, in order for Jeremy to be innocent. It simply ceased to make any sort of sense. Add to that 20/25 wasted minutes of diddling through a phone book and a call to Julie -for no reason, other than to tell her everything was going well- BEFORE calling the police following a "panicked" call from his father at silly o'clock to say that his sister had gone mad and had hold of a gun, and suddenly, Jeremy doesn't appear quite as innocent.

thanks but what do you suppose happens when miscarriages of justice happen Jane. It has been proven that because police THINK they have the guilty person they ensure the story fits to get a conviction. This is happening all the time Jane, people are being fitted up. Circumstantial evidence cases are dangerous because it's who tells the better story on the day.

Im not sure why you seem to use the fact that you can't see this amount of people lying in this case when it's clearly happened in so many others.

[Jane]

thanks but what do you suppose happens when miscarriages of justice happen Jane. It has been proven that because police THINK they have the guilty person they ensure the story fits to get a conviction. This is happening all the time Jane, people are being fitted up. Circumstantial evidence cases are dangerous because it's who tells the better story on the day.

Im not sure why you seem to use the fact that you can't see this amount of people lying in this case when it's clearly happened in so many others.

Are you saying that just because MOJ's DO happen, this has to be one? As I said to Lookout, I wonder just how many of the 700 cases of alleged MOJ's are the real deal.

[lookout]

Hello lookout IMO EP have evidence that shows Sheila murdered her family then herself.  Sadly they may have destroyed it when they burnt evidence against the Courts instructions it must have been items they did not want anyone else to see

It wouldn't surprise me if EP have burned all the documents and photographs that have been requested for months now,and they're too dishonest to say so. Which,if they have,will show the world just what they're like and how underhanded they'd been about this case.

[notsure]

Are you saying that just because MOJ's DO happen, this has to be one? As I said to Lookout, I wonder just how many of the 700 cases of alleged MOJ's are the real deal.

no I'm not saying that, I'm saying I don't get why you  seem so adamant that it couldn't be because so many people couldn't have lied

[Jane]

no I'm not saying that, I'm saying I don't get why you  seem so adamant that it couldn't be because so many people couldn't have lied

And I'm equally interested to know why you're so adamant that he's innocent and a huge and diverse number of people lied -most having NOTHING to gain from it- and have kept faith with each other for 30+ years.

[susan]

It wouldn't surprise me if EP have burned all the documents and photographs that have been requested for months now,and they're too dishonest to say so. Which,if they have,will show the world just what they're like and how underhanded they'd been about this case.

Hello lookout

and this evidence would show Sheila was the one who murdered her family then herself.  I have never thought EP set out to be dishonest I thin k they got themselves in a pickle after Taff had said 4 murders one suicide I keep saying and saying when Taff studied the crime scene what he saw must have brought him to the conclusion it did otherwise he would have kept and open mind till a full investigation had been carried out this stays with me all the time and can never get me off Sheila being the killer.

[mike tesko]

There was obviously some misunderstanding. If the WHF line had completed a 999 call (by hanging up) and then been left off-hook, the prior 999 call would be irrelevant to the current status. If the 999 call hadn't been completed, the operator wouldn't have told Pc West that the receiver was simply off-hook. The operator made a statement in which she said that she connected the WHF line to the police HQ without using the 999 system, because she wasn't allowed to use the 999 system for that purpose.
It doesn't matter what line Pc West was using, as the engaged tone implies that the WHF line wasn't available. The operator told Pc West that the engaged tone was because the receiver at WHF was off-hook.
There is no evidence that the WHF line ever had a 999 status. Yes there is, its mentioned in one of the contemporaneously recorded police radio message logs that at 7.47am, the 999 open line from inside the kitchen to police back in the conytrol room, or the Communications room or wherever, was requested to be closed down!
At 3:42am (according to Pc West's log),  the operator told Pc West that the explanation of the engaged tone was that the receiver at WHF was off-hook. She reported the line was off the hook,
 then later on she reported the line was enaged, and then she linked the open line from inside the farm to the police back in the control room! She was only able to do this because by the time she transferred that line to the police at 6.08am, the phone inside whf had already made a 999 call! That link via the 999 system remained in use for one hour and 39 minutes before it was requested that the 999 open line to the farmhouse should be closed down..She didn't mention hearing a dog barking until later on, after another line check had been requested. The line being off the hook, is the same as when the operator heard the dog barking! She would not have been able to hear the dog barking if the phone was engagedOn that later occasion, the line was still engaged a phone off the hook where the operator can hear a dog barking is not the same as a phone that is recorded as being engaged..due to being off-hook,You are trying to merge two different states in which the phone inside the farmhouse was in, as representing the same which I do not believe to be true and its not technically possible... but there was a new piece of information, that a dog had been heard barking. A dog heard barking because when the operator heard the dog barking the handset of the phone was off the hook, not engaged!The line's status hadn't changed. It had..What the operator could hear, whether a dog barking, sounds possibly caused by the raid team, or anything else of that nature, had no bearing on the line status.
 It does, because if when the operator checked the phone at the farmhouse (5.47am) and she got an engaged tone, she would not also be able to hear a dog barking, its not technically possible! The line remained engaged because it was off-hook. It did not remain in the same state,
 it could not be off the hook, and producing an engaged tone when the operator checked it at 5.47am,
 and she be able to hear a dog barking unless the state of the phone altered or changed, unless the caller had attempted to make a 999 call, which allowed the operator to bypass the engaged tone she was receiving by 5.47am, and switch the phone using the 999 system to the police by 6.08am. There was clearly a 999 open line link created by the operator at 6.08am, which was requested to be closed down at 7.47am, after only two of the five bodies had been found...Whether the police happened to write "off-hook" or "engaged" in their log on each occasion is irrelevant. I disagree, its a significant difference, technically and factually...
It didn't suddenly become engaged. It did at 5.47am, and the fact that it had become engaged was noted in the log... It was necessarily engaged at all times when the receiver was off-hook.No, it wasn't engaged at all times, it was clearly off the hook at one time or another, and it became engaged at 5.47am, and by 6.08am the operator patched the farmhouse phone directly to the police back in the control room or wherever, by the 999 system, which was closed down at 7.47am. There were clear differences in the state of the farmhouse phone at different stages of the siege which was ongoing from after 3.48am, all the way through incorporating the reports that two bodies were found upon entry to the kitchen (7.30am, 7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, and 7.45am), until the line in question was itself closed down at precisely 7.47am. It was closed down, yet in the crime scene photographs we see the kitchen phone with its handset off the hook, and we find that a request was made for Harris to make contact with ACC Peter Simpson via the landline phone, once he, Gibbons and Montgomery entered the kitchen!
The police log suggests that the police asked the operator to switch the line to the police HQ using the 999 system, And she did.. but the operator explained in her statement that she connected the WHF line to the police HQ using a normal exchange line impossible, that couldn't be done back in the mid 1980's because of the old exchange system in use. There was simply no way an operator could patch a phone line with its handset off the hook, and be engaged at one and the same time, through to the police and the operator bypassing the engaged tone, to allow the police to listen in, lets say for a dog barking, or whatever, unless the original off the hook, or engaged phone had at some stage been used to either make, or attempt to make a 999 call! If we treat the information on Malcom Bonnetts 3.26am C6 log as Neville Bambers call to PC West as being made by an exchange line call, there is no way in all you have alluded to, with that handset being off the hook from 3.42am, onward, engaged tone blurting out after so many minutes of time had elapsed, for anybody including the operator to hear a dog barking, unless the status of the phone changed from it starting off as an exchange line call to PC West by 3.26 am, or thereabouts, and someone inside the farmhouse then dialling, or trying to dial 999. The explanation I have given is an accurate one! The operator did switch the call from the phone at the farm to the police by the 999 system, because by that stage (long after 3.42am) somebody who was still very much alive inside the house used that phone intending to summon ambulances for the wounded,
 the dying, or for what its worth, the dead..., not the 999 system (which she wasn't allowed to use for that purpose). She wouldn't have been able to switch the exchange line phone call from the house to the police, in the circumstances you are implying, it simply would not have been technically possible because of the old exchange system in use at that time!
I've seen no evidence that the WHF line was used to make a 999 call for that purpose or that any 999 call was used to request the ambulances. Wait until the statements become available which deals with who requested the ambulances, and why...However, the police could have asked for ambulances to attend using that line whilst it was off-hook There's absolutely no evidence suggesting that,
 for reasons best known to Essex police and the CPS and its affiliates, they don't want anyone knowing anything at all about this feature in the case, but somebody called for the ambulances, and they had a specific reason for doing so! One ambulance to go directly to the house, and the other ambulance to remain on standby parked up in Pages Lane, so what is that all about? and being listened to by the operator. I haven't seen anything to indicate that occurred, but it's technically possible. I think it's more likely that the police at WHF used their radio instead. Very odd though that there is no contemporaneous message log record confirming the truth...