Shell Casing Ejection Theory

[Adam]

I nearly praised you for giving me a reasonable answer.

You think the 522 point appeal report has incorrect facts ?

[Roch]

You think the 522 point appeal report has incorrect facts ?

That's not what I meant.  For a brief moment in time.... I thought you had composed a reasonable answer to me yourself.

[Adam]

That's not what I meant.  For a brief moment in time.... I thought you had composed a reasonable answer to me yourself.

I copied and pasted a section of the 2002 appeal.

Do you think the 2002 appeal is wrong regarding the shell casings ?

[Roch]

I copied and pasted a section of the 2002 appeal.

Do you think the 2002 appeal is wrong regarding the shell casings ?

Adam, you are like an android or something.  Relentless. 

[susan]

Adam, you are like an android.  Relentless. 

Roch 

[David1819]

Fleeing FROM the bedroom, after being shot IN the bedroom.

How?

I cant see how one can match that to the trajectories. Nor the shell casings for that matter.

[guest2181]

How?

I cant see how one can match that to the trajectories. Nor the shell casings for that matter.

No, I'm sure you can't, or rather don't want to.

As has already been explained to you very clearly, the tracts of the wounds don't really tell you very much unless you know both the position of the target and the shooter.

You want to have Neville down a few steps so that the tracts of the wounds are on a downwards trajectory, that's cool, but instead of being down a few steps, why not just have him in the bedroom and ducking defensively, or lying or just rising from his bed?

The range of the shots given by the pathologist simply do not fit your scenario.

The shots could all have been taken from the area hatched on the floor plan previously posted, the two shell casings in the doorway and on the landing are attributed to the two final shots to June on the killers return to the bedroom.

It seems to me that you are desperately coming up with contrived scenarios to allow Neville to be downstairs before being shot. It simply doesn't work.

[Roch]

It seems to me that you are desperately coming up with contrived scenarios to allow Neville to be downstairs before being shot. It simply doesn't work.

It's funny you should say that.  There are some people who believe all of Nevill's shot were downstairs.

[guest2181]

It's funny you should say that.  There are some people who believe all of Nevill's shot were downstairs.

Seems like an attempt to muddy the waters.

Neville was shot in the bedroom prior to receiving the four fatal shots in the kitchen, this is based on shell case positions and blood stain found on the route from the bedroom to the kitchen.

[Adam]

It's funny you should say that.  There are some people who believe all of Nevill's shot were downstairs.

Buddy in his scenario said that Nevill called Bamber after being shot 4 times, & was not shot upstairs.

Not sure what difference it makes where Nevill received his first 4  shots prior to phoning Bamber.

[Adam]

As I said yesterday, if the rifle nozzle was a few inches from Nevill's face when shot upstairs, as stated by the 2002 appeal, I don't know how the shell casings were so deep inside the bedroom if he was shot on the stairs.

David has said the shell casings bounced off the walls. What walls these were supposed to be I don't know as he's posted several pictures of Sheila standing at the door entrance.

[David1819]

No, I'm sure you can't, or rather don't want to.

As has already been explained to you very clearly, the tracts of the wounds don't really tell you very much unless you know both the position of the target and the shooter.

Were?

You want to have Neville down a few steps so that the tracts of the wounds are on a downwards trajectory, that's cool, but instead of being down a few steps, why not just have him in the bedroom and ducking defensively, or lying or just rising from his bed?

No blood on Nevills bed. None of the blood on the carpet belongs to Nevills blood group.

The range of the shots given by the pathologist simply do not fit your scenario.

The pathologist(Vanezis) never gave the range of shots. It was Malcom Fletcher who came to his opinion by looking at photographs.

The shots could all have been taken from the area hatched on the floor plan previously posted, the two shell casings in the doorway and on the landing are attributed to the two final shots to June on the killers return to the bedroom.

The area on the floor plan only indicates where the shooter could have been standing.

It seems to me that you are desperately coming up with contrived scenarios to allow Neville to be downstairs before being shot. It simply doesn't work.

Really? Your scenario requires Nevill to be shot in some odd position and not bleed. With June getting out of bed and running away from the shooter while Nevill runs in the opposite direction towards the shooter. June and Neville cross paths then Nevil runs past the shooter in the door way and down the stairs.

I challenge you to make a reconstruction of that like I have with mine. You might realise how preposterous it becomes.

[guest2181]

Were?

Were what? 

No blood on Nevills bed. None of the blood on the carpet belongs to Nevills blood group.

Clearly Neville was not bleeding very much at that time, other than a small stain on the wall at the bottom of the stairs and a couple of drops outside the bedroom, there is no particular trail of blood.

Likewise your scenario seems to lack a blood trail.

The pathologist(Vanezis) never gave the range of shots. It was Malcom Fletcher who came to his opinion by looking at photographs.

Yes it is Fletchers report, having seen Vanezis, Hayward & Elliots statements, x-rays, photographs, a pyjama top and nightdress and test firing the rifle at various ranges with and without moderator attached, noting discharge residues so produced.

The area on the floor plan only indicates where the shooter could have been standing.

Yes, the shooter was standing somewhere in the hatched area, they are not thought to have been stood outside of this area.

Really? Your scenario requires Nevill to be shot in some odd position and not bleed. With June getting out of bed and running away from the shooter while Nevill runs in the opposite direction towards the shooter. June and Neville cross paths then Nevil runs past the shooter in the door way and down the stairs.

Erm no it doesn't, if it is so preposterous why has it been accepted by the various experts and at trial, appeal, CCRC review etc.

The killer enters the bedroom, stands at the foot of the bed and starts shooting, shell casings are ejected to the right.
June is shot a number of times, she sits forward and collapses out of bed on her side.
Neville is shot a number of times but manages to run past the killer out of the room and down the stairs. The killer pursues and after a struggle in the kitchen Neville receives the 4 fatal shots.
The killer returns to the bedroom where June has managed to move around a little and shoots her an additional two times whilst standing in the doorway, the cases eject to the right.

Not a single convoluted ricochet in sight. 

[David1819]

Perhaps Nevill was shot in the bedroom, as June was. Rather than casings bouncing off walls.

I thought the casings went forward 6feet. That must explain the casings bouncing off walls. Or do the casings go sideways ? You have posted conflicting information on this.

Here.

[David1819]

Were what? 

Clearly Neville was not bleeding very much at that time, other than a small stain on the wall at the bottom of the stairs and a couple of drops outside the bedroom, there is no particular trail of blood.

Likewise your scenario seems to lack a blood trail.

Yes it is Fletchers report, having seen Vanezis, Hayward & Elliots statements, x-rays, photographs, a pyjama top and nightdress and test firing the rifle at various ranges with and without moderator attached, noting discharge residues so produced.

Yes, the shooter was standing somewhere in the hatched area, they are not thought to have been stood outside of this area.
Erm no it doesn't, if it is so preposterous why has it been accepted by the various experts and at trial, appeal, CCRC review etc.

The killer enters the bedroom, stands at the foot of the bed and starts shooting, shell casings are ejected to the right.
June is shot a number of times, she sits forward and collapses out of bed on her side.
Neville is shot a number of times but manages to run past the killer out of the room and down the stairs. The killer pursues and after a struggle in the kitchen Neville receives the 4 fatal shots.
The killer returns to the bedroom where June has managed to move around a little and shoots her an additional two times whilst standing in the doorway, the cases eject to the right.

Not a single convoluted ricochet in sight. 

You will find many convoluted parts if you actually try and reconstruct that scenario in detail.

Its only been 'accepted' because its a mere assumption that has never been challenged by the defence.

What position is Neville shot in to accommodate the trajectories if shot in the bedroom? The shooter must have been at an elevated position. You have made 3D diagrams before with the kitchen window. Why not do one for this?