Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.

[Adam]

20 minutes isn't really a great deal of time when you consider the carnage in the farmhouse.  How did he manage to successfully guess that the police wouldn't suspect him from the off - given that he had left Sheila with two gunshot wounds to the throat after having set her up as a suicide victim?

How did he know that the police wouldn't forensically check his person or cottage for traces of blood or excessive washing?  He apparently knew that he had completely botched Sheila's 'suicide' when he was washing himself!

Bamber had all the time in the world. Both at WHF & when he got back to his cottage. He would leave WHF & phone the police when he was ready.

He took the chance that the police wouldn't check him on the night. They didn't as he was ever so helpful to them.

[Caroline]

Hi Caroline, I don't mind making mistakes.  I've got a lot to learn about this case, so I see this as a fact finding mission.  So I can assume that the "one gunshot wound" that Dr Craig sees is the lower one, that allegedly was inflicted by JB some hours earlier which although not killing Sheila instantly rendered her unconcious.  Sheila bleeds to death internally and dies, sometime later as I understand it. This is the "one gunshot wound" that Dr.Craig sees some hours later; however what about the second GSW that Dr Craig doesn't see at 8.44am?  When does that get inflicted? 

Hoots!

Sheila had two GS wounds when Craig saw her. She died because of the second shot, they were inflicted within seconds of each other. If Craig only noticed one GS wound at the time, you would have to ask him why. However, he clearly wasn't giving her a full examination and simply wanted to pronounce death so that the police could do their job (as it turned out - not very well).

[Caroline]

I have given Ngb the details that's all I can post on here and your opinion means nothing to me

I'm sure he was thrilled. 

[Roch]

He didn't KNOW they wouldn't suspect him, he believed they wouldn't. Like any criminal, there would be no crime IF criminals though they would be suspected from the off. What was he supposed to do after the two shots happened? He had no choice but to go ahead and make sure that he put himself some place else when the murders were supposed to be happening - hence the phone call.

He didn't know, but he couldn't turn the clock back, he just had to crack on. They were too busy to suspect him from the off.

Sorry but that doesn't ring true.  You cant just say that he believed they wouldn't suspect him.  So he totally botches her 'suicide' - and his mental response to this is merely to believe that the police wont suspect him?

It makes far more sense that the police didn't suspect him because:

(a) They were fully aware Sheila was the killer

and

(b) They were comfortable with the fact that her second gunshot wound wasn't foul play.

[Caroline]

Sheila Caffell murdered her family - though I imagine it might have been considered 'diminished responsibility' (for example if she had survived and gone on trial). She may never have become fit for trial if she had survived - so I don't know the legalities of what would have been done in those circs.  Maybe ngb could provide an opinion?

The evidence is?

[Caroline]

Sorry but that doesn't ring true.  You cant just say that he believed they wouldn't suspect him.  So he totally botches her 'suicide' - and his mental response to this is merely to believe that the police wont suspect him?

It makes far more sense that the police didn't suspect him because:

(a) They were fully aware Sheila was the killer

and

(b) They were comfortable with the fact that her second gunshot wound wasn't foul play.

You seem to be saying he would have botched it on purpose? Clearly that was accidental but what would you imagine him to do after that happened? Phone the police and give himself up or just carry on in the hope that he got away with it?

That makes sense to you, but you have made a massive leap with no evidence to support it. I get where you are coming from now, you think the police made the second shot? Nah, they had no reason to cover that up, none whatsoever.

[guest1199]

Sheila had two GS wounds when Craig saw her. She died because of the second shot, they were inflicted within seconds of each other. If Craig only noticed one GS wound at the time, you would have to ask him why. However, he clearly wasn't giving her a full examination and simply wanted to pronounce death so that the police could do their job (as it turned out - not very well).

Hi Caroline. 

This thread is supposed to be about the book; therefore the points I raise are from the book.  At kindle location 3005 the Author makes it quite clear that Dr. Craig sees only "one gunshot wound" at 8.44am.  Why did he manage to get it so catastrophically wrong?  Or how did the Author get it so catastrophically wrong? 

[Caroline]

Hi Caroline. 

This thread is supposed to be about the book; therefore the points I raise are from the book.  At kindle location 3005 the Author makes it quite clear that Dr. Craig sees only "one gunshot wound" at 8.44am.  Why did he manage to get it so catastrophically wrong?  Or how did the Author get it so catastrophically wrong?

How is is seeing only one GS wound 'catastrophically wrong'? Sheila was dead and she had been shot in the throat. He was only pronouncing death so that the police could continue the investigation. Not sure what you're suggesting? Do you think she did only have one GS wound at this stage? That being the case, where did the other one come from and when?

[Roch]

You seem to be saying he would have botched it on purpose? Clearly that was accidental but what would you imagine him to do after that happened? Phone the police and give himself up or just carry on in the hope that he got away with it?

That makes sense to you, but you have made a massive leap with no evidence to support it. I get where you are coming from now, you think the police made the second shot? Nah, they had no reason to cover that up, none whatsoever.

No I'm not saying he botched it deliberately - Not sure how you come to that conclusion.  You've missed one of my other posts also. 

I left the option open.  How would police have explained .22 ammunition allegedly from the murder weapon was inside Sheila, as a result of being shot by police?  That would go down well at an inquest.  How would they explain the trajectory and circumstances?

[guest1199]

Sheila had two GS wounds when Craig saw her. She died because of the second shot, they were inflicted within seconds of each other. If Craig only noticed one GS wound at the time, you would have to ask him why. However, he clearly wasn't giving her a full examination and simply wanted to pronounce death so that the police could do their job (as it turned out - not very well).

I am a bit perplexed about your conclusions that the shots "were within seconds of each other" when Carol Ann lee quotes this from Venizis "He was unable to specify how much time had elapsed between the shots: ‘All I can say is there was enough time for there to be a fairly large build up of blood in the neck area". So how was did a large build up of blood from the first GSW occur if the second GSW was inflicted only seconds later as you say?

[Caroline]

No I'm not saying he botched it deliberately - Not sure how you come to that conclusion.  You've missed one of my other posts also. 

I left the option open.  How would police have explained .22 ammunition allegedly from the murder weapon was inside Sheila, as a result of being shot by police?  That would go down well at an inquest.  How would they explain the trajectory and circumstances?

Sorry but that doesn't ring true.  You cant just say that he believed they wouldn't suspect him.  So he totally botches her 'suicide' - and his mental response to this is merely to believe that the police wont suspect him?

That sounds like you're saying he did it on purpose, but either way, once it was botched, he couldn't turn back could he? It was done and he's have to proceed. The best that he could do was to make them believe he was elsewhere - hence the phone call.

I guess they could have said it happened while they tried to get the gun off her, but that's not for me to explain given that I don't think the police did shoot her - Jeremy did.

[Adam]

I doubt the raid team entered WHF with rifles for shooting rabbits.

If EP shot Sheila, the bullet would be different.

[Steve_uk]

No I'm not saying he botched it deliberately - Not sure how you come to that conclusion.  You've missed one of my other posts also. 

I left the option open.  How would police have explained .22 ammunition allegedly from the murder weapon was inside Sheila, as a result of being shot by police?  That would go down well at an inquest.  How would they explain the trajectory and circumstances?

The murder weapon was stiff-so stiff in fact that Malcolm Fletcher broke a nail trying to clear the magazine. You also fail to explain the lack of gunshot residue on Sheila's hands.

[guest1199]

How is is seeing only one GS wound 'catastrophically wrong'? Sheila was dead and she had been shot in the throat. He was only pronouncing death so that the police could continue the investigation. Not sure what you're suggesting? Do you think she did only have one GS wound at this stage? That being the case, where did the other one come from and when?

It's clear that according to Dr. Craig's testimony that Carol Ann Lee is clearly endorsing, is there was only one GSW when he pronouned her dead.  You are emphatically suggesting that there were 2.  Am I to assume that he was wrong and you are correct?  With reference to your question, that's what you should be answering not me.

[Adam]

It's clear that according to Dr. Craig's testimony that Carol Ann Lee is clearly endorsing, is there was only one GSW when he pronouned her dead.  You are emphatically suggesting that there were 2.  Am I to assume that he was wrong and you are correct?  With reference to your question, that's what you should be answering not me.

If there was one gun shot wound when prononced dead, why would the police shoot her again ? She was dead.