the gunshot resdue mystory.

[David1819]

I'm simply pointing out that Remington ammunition was not used in the murders.

Remington .22 rimfire and Eley .22 rimfire are the same thing. One is just Eley imported and packaged for American consumption under the Remington brand. There is no difference except for how they are marketed.

[guest2181]

Another observation that I have (yes really, another one  ) is that the first clipping provided by David, simply discusses a particular type of test to identify barium.

The tests carried out by the police were testing for the levels of lead, not barium.

At trial Brian Elliott, a scientist from the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, gave evidence that the item DRH/33 described as "Swabbing Kit – hands of Sheila Caffell" had been received at the laboratory on 13 September 1985. He said that tests had been carried out for the presence of lead and that only "very low levels of lead have been detected on the two hand swabs". He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected. Clearly if this evidence was right it cast doubt upon Sheila Caffell having loaded the cartridges into the gun and thus to her having killed the others and then herself.

In fact, they even did a test on the laboratory staff and obtained positive results. Which according to David, should be impossible to do until 1989. 

I think it's pretty clear that Davids attempt to blur the edges has failed miserably. 

[David1819]

so that means the the proscution seriously missled the jury when they said lack of gunshot proved  shiela dident fire the gun.

The Judge never instructed the jury they could find Jeremy guilty on the issue of GSR. So I am guessing not. If they were misled it would be from ignorance of the subject rather than anything malicious.

[nugnug]

gunshot resdue from riffels and shotguns will often often be often be found on the upper arms not the hands.

[guest2181]

"The hands – were swabbed – swabs rejected by the laboratory. Later raised by D/Superintendent Ainsley in conference at the laboratory when the laboratory again stated that it was too costly to do and that it would be expected to show a positive result as the body of Sheila was in a room contaminated by gunfire. D/Superintendent Ainsley made issue that the swabs should be examined and if not done he wished a statement to explain why it had not been done. As a result they were examined and found to be virtually negative of residue, i.e. lead, oil and propellant."

Negative findings of lead, oil and propellant.

[nugnug]

The Judge never instructed the jury they could find Jeremy guilty on the issue of GSR. So I am guessing not. If they were misled it would be from ignorance of the subject rather than anything malicious.

well misleading a jury is still missleading them even if its they dident intend to still means the jury are given the wrong information with wich to base there deciesn on a imagene most of the jury would of been ignorant of the subject wich is why it was so important they were given the correct information im sure was based on a number of facters and although he wasnt convicted on gsr evdence alone im sure it would of played a part.

[guest2181]

Remington .22 rimfire and Eley .22 rimfire are the same thing. One is just Eley imported and packaged for American consumption under the Remington brand. There is no difference except for how they are marketed.

I'm not so sure that is true. 

It seems to me that Remington and Eley are two separate companies. Remington simply acts as the supplier/distributer of Eley ammunition in the US. They add their name, but the ammunition remain Eley ammunition.

Your article refers to Remington ammunition https://www.remington.com/ammunition/rimfire  .

Eley .22lr subsonic hollow point ammunition is not manufactured Remington. http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

[guest2181]

I'm not so sure that is true. 

It seems to me that Remington and Eley are two separate companies. Remington simply acts as the supplier/distributer of Eley ammunition in the US. They add their name, but the ammunition remain Eley ammunition.

Your article refers to Remington ammunition https://www.remington.com/ammunition/rimfire  .

Eley .22lr subsonic hollow point ammunition is not manufactured Remington. http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

Upon further investigation (and information from a good friend), Remington and Eley ammunition is most certainly NOT the same.

Eley is a far superior quality which is imported in to the US by Remington.

Nice try again David.

It's clear that you haven't a clue what you are talking about, simply posting something that you don't understand and then claiming it means something that it doesn't, just to suit your purpose.

[lookout]

I think you are probably mistaken Lookout. 

It's mentioned in CC's book.

[lookout]

If you have CC's book to hand you'll see that an officer had told him that it was found in the bedroom. No doubt earlier on in the investigation.  The officer would have told CC this when he'd " thought " that Sheila had been responsible.
The box,like everything else wouldn't have been tested.

[David1819]

Another observation that I have (yes really, another one  ) is that the first clipping provided by David, simply discusses a particular type of test to identify barium.

The tests carried out by the police were testing for the levels of lead, not barium.

At trial Brian Elliott, a scientist from the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, gave evidence that the item DRH/33 described as "Swabbing Kit – hands of Sheila Caffell" had been received at the laboratory on 13 September 1985. He said that tests had been carried out for the presence of lead and that only "very low levels of lead have been detected on the two hand swabs". He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected. Clearly if this evidence was right it cast doubt upon Sheila Caffell having loaded the cartridges into the gun and thus to her having killed the others and then herself.

In fact, they even did a test on the laboratory staff and obtained positive results. Which according to David, should be impossible to do until 1989. 

I think it's pretty clear that Davids attempt to blur the edges has failed miserably. 

Brian Elliott it talking about the handing and loading of the bullets not gunshot residue.

Gunfire residue has nothing to do with handling and loading bullet cases.

I think it's pretty clear that Hartley is retarded.

[guest2181]

Brian Elliott it talking about the handing and loading of the bullets not gunshot residue.

Gunfire residue has nothing to do with handling and loading bullet cases.

I think it's pretty clear that Hartley is retarded.

Nice. 

What we are all talking about is whether there was any detectable evidence of Sheila having handled the rifle, bullets and fired 25 shots.

The prosecution had found no such evidence.

You have attempted to undermine their evidence by posting things which are not true. I don't think your attempts were through ignorance either.

Bad David.

[lookout]

The " supposed " rifle which was allegedly used in the shootings would have had clear prints of everyone who'd come into contact with it------------and it didn't.
You can't tell me that Neville wouldn't have made a grab at it when trying to wrestle it from Sheila.
Why were the so-called prints which were found,so flimsy ??

[guest2181]

It's mentioned in CC's book.

It can't be a discovery that was made at the crime scene.

I haven't got CC's book so I'm not sure what the context is. 

[David1819]

I've just been reading through this topic again. It seems people are getting the impression this effects the case as to who killed the family. It don't. As NugNug first wrote we should expect gunshot residue on Sheila regardless of murder or suicide.

A while back I came across this post by NBG.

This is an interesting point which I had not considered before.  We know Sheila received two shots at very close range - possibly contact shots.  There would have been measurable residue on her nightdress and her body, partly from what was ejected from the barrel of the rifle and partly from what was ejected from the breach of the rifle as each spent cartridge  was automatically ejected.  In addition there would have been residue, probably including gun oil, cartridge lubricant, lead residue as well as cartridge propellant residue, on the rifle itself in view of the number of other shots which had been fired through it.  Given that the rifle was at some stage positioned on Sheila's body some further traces would have been expected on her clothing from contact with the rifle itself.  It is very puzzling.

This prompted me to dig a little deeper on the issue. I believe I found a rather logical answer via researching the topic. Its no longer a mystery in my opinion based on the evidence I have assembled. I posted my findings on this over a year ago. It does not answer the question of murder or suicide its just a neutral anomaly. No point having a frenzy over it.