Author Topic: Why didn't Taff Jones tell Bamber & the relatives about Nevill's call ?  (Read 25071 times)

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Offline Roch

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Given that there is no evidence that the police staged managed the body of Sheila Caffell and it IS an accusation by people on this forum then it is only right that they give a reason why such may have occurred? The CT have said there are still many documents being held under PII, however, Jeremy told me he not has almost everything. You can claim 'something' is hidden that 'something' happened and go on doing so but that doesn't make it a fact. the police can't admit to something that didn't occur.


This reply merely ignores the entire content in my post: that refers to both individual and collective 'serious concerns' expressed by TFG members. They clearly spoke with both heads of the investigation - during both phases of the investigation.  The Bible cannot be 12-18 inches away from Sheila's waist when TFG find her - and then appear over her arm and covering a distinctive bloodstain on the carpet in crime scene photos taken much later, without the following:

A) Interference with her crime scene by police.

B) A reason to cause police to interfere with her crime scene.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 11:52:AM by Roch »

Offline Jaycad73

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Hi everyone-this is my first post so please go easy on me!  ;D

Is it not possible that Sheila's (and Junes) body was moved by officers onto the bed prior to crime scene photographs being taken only to be placed back in their original position (or as close as could be remembered) when someone superior in rank informed them that crime scene photographs were protocol-even in cases in which looked an obvious murder then suicide scene? This would explain Ann Eatons account that she had been told that the bodies were found on the bed, the differing opinions on where the rifle and bible was, the moving of sheila's body could be the reason for the stain on the carpet and subsequent possible attempt to hide it.
I've absolutely no idea of Police protocol for crime scene recording in 1985 but the burning of bed clothes/linen only one day later and general sloppiness with regards to handling of potential evidence at the scene and later on appears to me that EP had come to their conclusion (somewhat prematurely) and acted in a blasé manner regarding case evidence until something changed their minds later on.
A Seattle police officer involved with the suicide/crime scene of Nirvana singer Kurt Cobain in 1993 stated that, although photographs were taken of the scene, it wasn't protocol to do so with obvious suicides, does anyone have info regarding British Police protocol for suicide scenes in 1985? It would be interesting to see if whether an approach from this point of view could have allowed such oversight?

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Hi everyone-this is my first post so please go easy on me!  ;D

Is it not possible that Sheila's (and Junes) body was moved by officers onto the bed prior to crime scene photographs being taken only to be placed back in their original position (or as close as could be remembered) when someone superior in rank informed them that crime scene photographs were protocol-even in cases in which looked an obvious murder then suicide scene? This would explain Ann Eatons account that she had been told that the bodies were found on the bed, the differing opinions on where the rifle and bible was, the moving of sheila's body could be the reason for the stain on the carpet and subsequent possible attempt to hide it.
I've absolutely no idea of Police protocol for crime scene recording in 1985 but the burning of bed clothes/linen only one day later and general sloppiness with regards to handling of potential evidence at the scene and later on appears to me that EP had come to their conclusion (somewhat prematurely) and acted in a blasé manner regarding case evidence until something changed their minds later on.
A Seattle police officer involved with the suicide/crime scene of Nirvana singer Kurt Cobain in 1993 stated that, although photographs were taken of the scene, it wasn't protocol to do so with obvious suicides, does anyone have info regarding British Police protocol for suicide scenes in 1985? It would be interesting to see if whether an approach from this point of view could have allowed such oversight?
Hi Jay, good post have a look through this thread it might answer some of your questions or give a better insight into how and why the police handled it the way they did?  It doesn't answer everything by the way.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,728.0.html

Offline Adam

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Why would the police move Sheila from the floor to the bed, and then back onto the floor ?

In 1985 it was police protocol not to touch a crime scene prior to crime scene photographer arriving. They didn't.

The police said they moved Sheila's arm slightly while photographs were taken,  for a specific reason.  The photographs show this.

AE is entitled to get something wrong. She wasn't there. She may have misheard a police officer. Or been given second hand information from a police officer who was not there. 'On' / 'by' the bed. This is nit picking.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 12:20:PM by Adam »
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Offline Caroline

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This reply merely ignores the entire content in my post: that refers to both individual and collective 'serious concerns' expressed by TFG members. They clearly spoke with both heads of the investigation - during both phases of the investigation.  The Bible cannot be 12-18 inches away from Sheila's waist when TFG find her - and then appear over her arm and covering a distinctive bloodstain on the carpet in crime scene photos taken much later, without the following:

A) Interference with her crime scene by police.

B) A reason to cause police to interfere with her crime scene.

I didn't ignore it, I simply don't agree with the bulk of it. When reviewing photographs, two officers questioned the position of the bible and on that aspect, it follows to some, that the whole scene was staged by the police so Jeremy must be innocent. They weren't sure - that's all.

Are you suggesting they were trying to 'hide' the blood stain? If so, why not just place Sheila over the top of it? What was their motive?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 12:23:PM by Caroline »
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Offline Caroline

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Hi everyone-this is my first post so please go easy on me!  ;D

Is it not possible that Sheila's (and Junes) body was moved by officers onto the bed prior to crime scene photographs being taken only to be placed back in their original position
(or as close as could be remembered) when someone superior in rank informed them that crime scene photographs were protocol-even in cases in which looked an obvious murder then suicide scene? This would explain Ann Eatons account that she had been told that the bodies were found on the bed, the differing opinions on where the rifle and bible was, the moving of sheila's body could be the reason for the stain on the carpet and subsequent possible attempt to hide it.
I've absolutely no idea of Police protocol for crime scene recording in 1985 but the burning of bed clothes/linen only one day later and general sloppiness with regards to handling of potential evidence at the scene and later on appears to me that EP had come to their conclusion (somewhat prematurely) and acted in a blasé manner regarding case evidence until something changed their minds later on.
A Seattle police officer involved with the suicide/crime scene of Nirvana singer Kurt Cobain in 1993 stated that, although photographs were taken of the scene, it wasn't protocol to do so with obvious suicides, does anyone have info regarding British Police protocol for suicide scenes in 1985? It would be interesting to see if whether an approach from this point of view could have allowed such oversight?

For what purpose?
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Offline Roch

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I didn't ignore it, I simply don't agree with the bulk of it. When reviewing photographs, two officers questioned the position of the bible and on that aspect, it follows to some, that the whole scene was staged by the police so Jeremy must be innocent. They weren't sure - that's all.


I think you are beholden to significantly downplay the concerns because of your stance on the case. There was a consistency involved regarding concerns about position of head and Bible. It's there for all to see. Not only that but one officer goes so far as to say no recollection of gun - which is astounding given the circs (as I have already posted).  If a meeting has to be set up with Ainsley (even after previous assurances were given by DCI Jones!) - I think that is an indicator of the level of collective concern among the first police officers to see her corpse and crime scene.

It would be interesting to know what time various TFG officers left the scene?

Offline Caroline

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I think you are beholden to significantly downplay the concerns because of your stance on the case. There was a consistency involved regarding concerns about position of head and Bible. It's there for all to see. Not only that but one officer goes so far as to say no recollection of gun - which is astounding given the circs (as I have already posted).  If a meeting has to be set up with Ainsley (even after previous assurances were given by DCI Jones!) - I think that is an indicator of the level of collective concern among the first police officers to see her corpse and crime scene.

It would be interesting to know what time various TFG officers left the scene?

I think you're 'up playing it' because of your stance and ignoring all those officers who concur with the crime scene. Also, it is simply speculation in respect to the meeting - it was a big murder case, five people were dead and the TFG were part of it. It's not unusual for officers to be debriefed.

I must also add the fact that officers were allowed to question the crime scene seems at odds with a massive cover up? If EP wanted to make sure no one found out about whatever 'something' happened at WHF, they would have made sure they ALL sang from the same song sheet and would never have allowed such statements to find their way into the public domain for scrutiny.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 01:34:PM by Caroline »
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Offline Stephanie

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I think you are beholden to significantly downplay the concerns because of your stance on the case. There was a consistency involved regarding concerns about position of head and Bible. It's there for all to see. Not only that but one officer goes so far as to say no recollection of gun - which is astounding given the circs (as I have already posted).  If a meeting has to be set up with Ainsley (even after previous assurances were given by DCI Jones!) - I think that is an indicator of the level of collective concern among the first police officers to see her corpse and crime scene.

It would be interesting to know what time various TFG officers left the scene?


David recently provided a link to an old campaigning website for SH. I thought it had been removed from the www and wasn't aware it could still be found.

However, here are a list of some of the police errors regarding that case.


"Errors and misconduct by the Police:

•  On January the 8 th , Lynne Hall (mother of the defendant) was let in to the victim's house without protective clothing with 2 officers also not wearing protective clothing to ascertain whether anything was missing from the house. Whilst in the property, things were touched and broken glass trodden in. This means the house may have been contaminated by Mrs Hall who then returned to her home which had not yet been forensically tested. It is therefore possible for any fibres found in her house (Mrs Hall's) to have been transferred on that day.

•  Although Simon often stayed and kept some of his clothes during and after the murder at Stephanie Bon's house in Colchester , no forensic tests were ever carried out despite Stephanie herself telling the police when she was interviewed. Also, Simon was teaching Stephanie to drive at the time and did so in his vehicles, none of her clothes were ever analysed and yet the fibres found in one of the vehicle were secondary, she does have garments closely resembling the material described in reports.

•  The police never took finger prints from Shaun Hall, Simon's brother during their investigation despite them trying to eliminate everyone.

•  4 bags of forensic evidence were left at Shaun's flat at the time by the police even though at the trial, they assured us of a foolproof system regarding forensic evidence.

•  The police spent a lot of time chasing up pubic hair found at Joan's in the upstairs toilet to find it was one of their own officer whom had left them. To our knowledge, it is not common practice for police officers to use scene of crime for such activities.

•  Police Pathologist did not attend and carry out certain tests at the scene (which are outlined in Home Office guidelines) which would have given us a time of death or at least some idea.

•  When interviewing people, it was noted by certain potential witnesses that confidential information regarding Simon Hall and details of the case were disclosed by the police which could have influenced their statements or opinions.

•  We feel that quite a substantial amount of evidence was held back from the defence prior and during the trial, such as Gastroenterologist report (see below, stomach content) this was kept as unused evidence. It as only found by the diligence of the solicitor for Simon who was reading files each night during the case. There were also evidence found from people stating that they had heard a loud noise around 2am , again in unused evidence files.

•  Whilst trying to contact a member of Mrs Hall's family (her Brother) at his work place, as he was out of the office at the time, information was given to his colleagues regarding the case, this was even prior to Simon's arrest and is surely a case of gross misconduct.

•  Mrs Hall recollected a jacket which may have been made of the same fibre and that had been borrowed from a work colleague so to help the police this garment was made available but when produced in court, the prosecution used it to accuse her of trying to mislead them as it was made of the wrong material.

•  Although it was proven by other witness statements that Mrs Hall once had a clothes business run from home, the prosecution accused her of lying about it and not telling the police earlier on in the investigation. The defence were not given time after this accusation to prove otherwise.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080511202109/http://justice4simon.co.uk/whyIsSimonInnocent.php


Like the Bamber case, the police were forced to admit they made mistakes.

Police officers aren't a superior breed of human being, they are the same as you and I Roch. Meaning they make mistakes, just like a group of people can collectively make a mistake.

I don't believe these mistakes should be downplayed nor indeed do I think they have been. Essex police most probably learned many vital lessons following their involvement in the Bamber case.

You don't state the names of the police officers to which you refer having had concerns of seeing "corpse and the crime scene.

But they had initially been duped by Bamber and thought they were dealing with a murder/suicide. I don't think you understand how deceptive and believable men like Bamber can be and the impact they can have on all those around them at the time.

The collective concern to which you refer, is supportive of how they may have initially been taken in by Bamber.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 01:54:PM by Stephanie »
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Offline Jaycad73

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For what purpose?
Away from foot traffic whilst awaiting to be transported to the morgue possibly? Wasn't Nevill's head placed in a coal scuttle and cushions/clothing over blood pooling to prevent further accessibility problems, kitchen chairs moved etc? I'm aware the latter was by the armed response team but am trying to show possible reasons for moving the bodies rather than leaving completely in situ.
Don't get me wrong, I'm asking questions with the hope of being given answers that, due to my inexperience, am unable to answer definitively myself-as I mentioned in my introduction, I'm open minded to both guilty and MOJ arguments. :)

Offline Caroline

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Away from foot traffic whilst awaiting to be transported to the morgue possibly? Wasn't Nevill's head placed in a coal scuttle and cushions/clothing over blood pooling to prevent further accessibility problems, kitchen chairs moved etc? I'm aware the latter was by the armed response team but am trying to show possible reasons for moving the bodies rather than leaving completely in situ.
Don't get me wrong, I'm asking questions with the hope of being given answers that, due to my inexperience, am unable to answer definitively myself-as I mentioned in my introduction, I'm open minded to both guilty and MOJ arguments. :)

Prior to having CS photographs taken?

Nevill died with his head in the coal scuttle, that's how he fell, it wasn't placed there afterwards and no one knows who placed the clothing on the floor - it could have been the killer.

There is no evidence that the bodies were moved, just speculation.
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Offline Adam

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Away from foot traffic whilst awaiting to be transported to the morgue possibly? Wasn't Nevill's head placed in a coal scuttle and cushions/clothing over blood pooling to prevent further accessibility problems, kitchen chairs moved etc? I'm aware the latter was by the armed response team but am trying to show possible reasons for moving the bodies rather than leaving completely in situ.
Don't get me wrong, I'm asking questions with the hope of being given answers that, due to my inexperience, am unable to answer definitively myself-as I mentioned in my introduction, I'm open minded to both guilty and MOJ arguments. :)

What foot traffic ? Sheila was next to the bed. Not in the door way.

I agree Bamber may have postioned Nevill after knocking him out. This was to get easy access to burn Nevill's back and fire more shots into his head. Nevill would not not fall exactly onto the coal scuttle.

People suggest without evidence the police moved Sheila before the photographer arrived. But cannot give a reason why the police would do this.
 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 01:53:PM by Adam »
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Offline Jaycad73

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Prior to having CS photographs taken?

Nevill died with his head in the coal scuttle, that's how he fell, it wasn't placed there afterwards and no one knows who placed the clothing on the floor - it could have been the killer.

There is no evidence that the bodies were moved, just speculation.

Ah right, I thought that I had read that one of the police officers at the scene had placed Nevill's head in the scuttle and that his body was originally blocking a doorway prior to the response teams entry, I'd assumed that it was in a statement but it was probably part of a theory-I've read so much on this forum recently that I cannot remember where certain things came from!
I have my suspicions that the initial police investigation was not handled in the manner that it should have been and that there were things that may have done to attempt to alleviate any potential reprimands for not following protocol once the police turned their attention to Bamber, if that makes any sense?

Offline Adam

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Ah right, I thought that I had read that one of the police officers at the scene had placed Nevill's head in the scuttle and that his body was originally blocking a doorway prior to the response teams entry, I'd assumed that it was in a statement but it was probably part of a theory-I've read so much on this forum recently that I cannot remember where certain things came from!
I have my suspicions that the initial police investigation was not handled in the manner that it should have been and that there were things that may have done to attempt to alleviate any potential reprimands for not following protocol once the police turned their attention to Bamber, if that makes any sense?

No the police did not move Nevill's body and put it on top of a coal scuttle. Even Mike has never suggested this. But it may have been suggested before somewhere. Without proof. Although I have never read this suggestion.

Agree it is unlikely Nevill would fall exactly onto a coal scuttle and not knock it over. He was a big man. Bamber had the strenght and time to move Nevill prior to burning his back and firing more head shots.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 02:02:PM by Adam »
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Offline Jaycad73

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No the police did not move Nevill's body and put it on top of a coal scuttle. Even Mike has never suggested this. But it may have been suggested before somewhere. Without proof. Although I have never read this suggestion.

Agree it is unlikely Nevill would fall exactly onto a coal scuttle and not knock it over. He was a big man. Bamber had the strenght and time to move Nevill prior to burning his back and firing more shots.

Thanks Adam, I remember thinking that putting Nevill's head in a coal scuttle was really disrespectful-I definitely read this (in what must've been a theory) on this forum......either that or I dreamed it-which is worrying in itself! :o