Author Topic: Why didn't Taff Jones tell Bamber & the relatives about Nevill's call ?  (Read 25012 times)

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Offline Stephanie

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How? Apparently BOTH Nevill and Jeremy reported the same info to West - West said he received one call - from Jeremy.

Reader is unraveling this, having clearly spent some time going through the evidence with a fine tooth comb.

In considering this, remember that PC West was simply doing a night shift in the control room at Chelmsford police station. In contrast, Bonnett was at the police HQ and routinely dealt with emergency calls. According to Bonnett, all his communications were recorded on audio tape. There is nothing to suggest that Jeremy's call to Pc West was recorded on audio tape.
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Offline Caroline

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Reader is unraveling this, having clearly spent some time going through the evidence with a fine tooth comb.

So have I
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Offline Stephanie

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Offline Reader

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Apparently BOTH Nevill and Jeremy reported the same info to West
As you know, Sheila's age was 27 in one log, but 26 in the other.

Offline Harry

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It's possible that "Mr. Bamber" and "Mr. Bamber Jr" phoned police 10-15 minutes apart.  In this scenario, the calls were later merged deliberately, under the stewardship of DCS Michael Ainsley; so as to conceal the call from Nevill.

However it is a pertinent and valid question to ask why the original investigation team did not inform Jeremy and/or the relatives that Nevill had called police.  On the face of it they had no reason not to. The relatives were informed as to how Sheila was culpable; and two of them did concede this to be a possibility.  However, conveniently, Ann cant remember what was discussed during that conversation (a bit like we are not allowed to see what was in DS Kenneally's report either).

I think though that there is another possibility.  The police will have listened to their own recordings of the incident - i.e. any incoming calls and any calls between PC West and civilian employee Malcolm Bonnet. Perhaps they themselves were not happy regarding how the calls were handled and the level of response? With what we know about the relatives... they would probably have demanded to hear the tapes themselves! 

Theoretically, the quickest way to raise a response would have been through HQIR radio system.  This was not done.


There are two rather weak arguments put forward as to why there could not have been a call by Nevill Bamber to the police.

1 If Nevill had called the police, PC West would have told Jeremy that they had already received a call from his father about 10 minutes earlier.

2 When the relatives were annoying the police with there opinions on the case, they could easily have put a stop to all of that by just telling them about the call from Nevill.

The first of these is very poor and and can easily be discounted. It easy to understand why West would not want to waste time with "chummy" kind of talk.  Another guy might have mentioned it, but its not obvious that any cop would have. It's not really a point worth discussing. Also, it's possible that West actually heard shots and feared the worst, which would give him an obvious reason to withhold information connected with that from Jeremy.

The second is worth considering and I think requires a more subtle explanation. To understand you have to reckon with the mentality of the police. They don't like people prying into their business and they don't like leaving loose ends.

Before Jeremy became the principle suspect.

Avoiding criticism for a slow response would be enough. The length of time it took CA5 to get there may have been a factor. You have to understand their mentality. Also, remember that Jeremy was not in jeopardy at that stage, so even some slight embarrassment would be enough to want to keep the noses of the relatives out of police business.

After ACC Simpson put Mike Ainsley in charge.

But later when when Mike Ainsley had been put in charge with Jeremy having become the prime suspect for reasons not based on any new evidence, but because Rober Boutflour had pull with the Assistant Chief Constable, the police would have additional reasons for suppressing the call from Nevill.

If there was some substantial difference between the official police version of events and the real truth which they wanted to cover up, they would naturally be unwilling to disclose information linked in some way to the real truth.
The relatives were originally told that Sheila's body had been found on the bed with a bible on her chest, but were later told that that information had been mistaken.

Even if the police had told them about the call from Nevill Bamber, they would not necessarily have been satisfied and they would still have posed a threat where the cover up was concerned. The police knew that the relatives wanted the inheritance and simply knowing Jeremy was innocent wouldn't necessarily keep them quiet when it came to matters concerned with the investigation.

The course of action chosen by the police was one which involved the relatives in the framing of Bamber. That was an essential part of the plan. Once the relatives were implicated in such wrongdoing they would have a powerful motive not to talk. If instead, the police had decided to just tell them about Nevill's call, there would be no guarantee that the relatives would shut up-even if they did know Jeremy was innocent.

There was a desire on the part of the police to follow the wishes of the relatives. That was the situation once Mike Ainsley had been put in charge by ACC Peter Simpson. Ainsley knew Bamber was innocent all along, but he had not been given the job to go against the Assistant Chief Constable who had appointed him. Ainsley knew all the doors and windows of the farm had been locked from the inside, leaving no possibility of Bamber being guilty. But that did not make him rock the boat. He just went with the flow.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 06:49:AM by Harry »

Offline Adam

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Must admit if I was in Bamber's situation, the last thing I would think of doing is looking up the number and calling the 5th (yes 5th) furthest away police station. Mainly because I don't even know what my second furthest police station is, let alone 5th.

If I was in Nevill's situation the last thing I would do is look up the number & call the 5th (yes 5th) furthest away police station. 

Anyway the question remains. Unlike the other police officers who knew about Nevill's call but had all instantly decided to attempt to frame Bamber,  Taff Jones publically supported Bamber for a month after the massacre. Why didn't he tell the relatives, media,  Bamber, other officers or Simpson about Nevill's call ?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 08:37:AM by Adam »
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Offline Roch

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Apparently BOTH Nevill and Jeremy reported the same info to West - West said he received one call - from Jeremy.

West was a junior officer, pressurised by more senior officers to change the time of the call he received. The officers behind this pressure were hardly going to want West to state he received two calls.  Whether informing police or informing Jeremy, Nevill is imparting information about the same incident.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 09:42:AM by Roch »

Offline Caroline

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West was a junior officer, pressurised by more senior officers to change the time of the call he received. The officers behind this pressure were hardly going to want West to state he received two calls.  Whether informing police or informing Jeremy, Nevill is imparting information about the same incident.

Except the only part of that that we KNOW, is that West agreed he may have written the wrong time on his log. The rest calls for speculation and a belief in a mass conspiracy to frame an innocent man in the light of already having a culpable Sheila.
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Offline Caroline

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As you know, Sheila's age was 27 in one log, but 26 in the other.

And West states that Jeremy was unsure of Sheila's age - had he said 26 or 27 it becomes clear why there is a discrepancy.
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Offline Caroline

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There are two rather weak arguments put forward as to why there could not have been a call by Nevill Bamber to the police.

1 If Nevill had called the police, PC West would have told Jeremy that they had already received a call from his father about 10 minutes earlier.

2 When the relatives were annoying the police with there opinions on the case, they could easily have put a stop to all of that by just telling them about the call from Nevill.

The first of these is very poor and and can easily be discounted. It easy to understand why West would not want to waste time with "chummy" kind of talk.  Another guy might have mentioned it, but its not obvious that any cop would have. It's not really a point worth discussing. Also, it's possible that West actually heard shots and feared the worst, which would give him an obvious reason to withhold information connected with that from Jeremy.

The second is worth considering and I think requires a more subtle explanation. To understand you have to reckon with the mentality of the police. They don't like people prying into their business and they don't like leaving loose ends.

Before Jeremy became the principle suspect.

Avoiding criticism for a slow response would be enough. The length of time it took CA5 to get there may have been a factor. You have to understand their mentality. Also, remember that Jeremy was not in jeopardy at that stage, so even some slight embarrassment would be enough to want to keep the noses of the relatives out of police business.

After ACC Simpson put Mike Ainsley in charge.

But later when when Mike Ainsley had been put in charge with Jeremy having become the prime suspect for reasons not based on any new evidence, but because Rober Boutflour had pull with the Assistant Chief Constable, the police would have additional reasons for suppressing the call from Nevill.

If there was some substantial difference between the official police version of events and the real truth which they wanted to cover up, they would naturally be unwilling to disclose information linked in some way to the real truth.
The relatives were originally told that Sheila's body had been found on the bed with a bible on her chest, but were later told that that information had been mistaken.

Even if the police had told them about the call from Nevill Bamber, they would not necessarily have been satisfied and they would still have posed a threat where the cover up was concerned. The police knew that the relatives wanted the inheritance and simply knowing Jeremy was innocent wouldn't necessarily keep them quiet when it came to matters concerned with the investigation.

The course of action chosen by the police was one which involved the relatives in the framing of Bamber. That was an essential part of the plan. Once the relatives were implicated in such wrongdoing they would have a powerful motive not to talk. If instead, the police had decided to just tell them about Nevill's call, there would be no guarantee that the relatives would shut up-even if they did know Jeremy was innocent.

There was a desire on the part of the police to follow the wishes of the relatives. That was the situation once Mike Ainsley had been put in charge by ACC Peter Simpson. Ainsley knew Bamber was innocent all along, but he had not been given the job to go against the Assistant Chief Constable who had appointed him. Ainsley knew all the doors and windows of the farm had been locked from the inside, leaving no possibility of Bamber being guilty. But that did not make him rock the boat. He just went with the flow.

'Chummy talk'?  ::) Informing a caller that the incident he was calling in was already being dealt with by police, it hardly 'chummy talk'. It is remeasuring the caller that the police have things in hand and of course he would have mentioned it or at the VERY LEAST added it to the log he kept of the incident which had (supposedly) already been reported, not start  a new log. There was no call from Nevill - it's so blindingly obvious that I really am getting exasperated by the fact that people can't (or more likely) WON'T see it. It's incredulous!
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Offline Roch

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Except the only part of that that we KNOW, is that West agreed he may have written the wrong time on his log. The rest calls for speculation and a belief in a mass conspiracy to frame an innocent man in the light of already having a culpable Sheila.

West was in dispute about whether he wrote the wrong time. If there was any acceptance on West's part, it was reluctant. Just because something is potentially speculation, does not mean it iisnt likely or even true, all things considered. There's still the point that Bonnet's recorded time on his log refers to the time he received a call from West - not the time that West received a call from Jeremy.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 10:40:AM by Roch »

Offline Caroline

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West was in dispute about whether he wrote the wrong time. If there was any acceptance on West's part, it was reluctant. Just because something is potentially speculation, does not mean it iisnt likely or even true, all things considered. There's still the point that Bonnet's recorded time on his log refers to the time he received a call from West - not the time that West received a call from Jeremy.

I wouldn't say he was 'in dispute'. He was reluctant to admit he had been incompetent but he did indeed admit he could have made a mistake. Bonnett's log would obviously record the time he received the call from West because that's when 'he received the call from West  ;D. I don't understand your point? Jeremy obviously called West shortly before 03:26 and West called Bonnett at 03:26.

No, speculation doesn't mean something is wrong or unlikely (we all do it). However, it is a massive stretch of the imagination to accept that the police conspired to frame an innocent man (in the face of knowing the real culprit) almost from day one. For what reason would the cast list have for keep such a secret all of these years? There are so many ways to get information out there and yet there is nothing. Jeremy wasn't/isn't important enough for people to risk their careers to keep him inside - he just wasn't/isn't. The police would have told the relatives to get on their bike, they don't like being told what to do - the relatives just didn't have the power that is being accredited to them.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 10:56:AM by Caroline »
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Offline Jane

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It is possible that Taff thought it was irrelevant and told nobody; it was hardly an issue while he was in charge of the investigation. It is obvious that after 7 September he was told to keep his mouth shut and keep his thoughts to himself.
Maybe neither Jeremy or his relatives knew about Nevill's call to the police.


OK. So the thrust of it is, as it's extremely unlikely that Nevill's call to the police happened, and can't be proved anyway, supporters have decided that it DID happen and the police are being blamed for saying it didn't happen, resulting in an innocent person's freedom is lost...........................and all for want of a horseshoe nail, eh?

Offline Caroline

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It is possible that Taff thought it was irrelevant and told nobody; it was hardly an issue while he was in charge of the investigation. It is obvious that after 7 September he was told to keep his mouth shut and keep his thoughts to himself.
Maybe neither Jeremy or his relatives knew about Nevill's call to the police.

OK, so the man was a policeman, not just a bog standard copper but an inspector and he couldn't work out the importance of such a call and told no one? Not only that, but West and Bonnett couldn't work it out either? A call from Nevill isn't just 'a thought to himself' - it would have been the one thing that PROVED his was right about the case. He's not going to just 'shut up'. I seriously wonder if people grasp the significance of Nevill's call were it to have happened? The above, kind of says not.
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Offline Roch

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I wouldn't say he was 'in dispute'. He was reluctant to admit he had been incompetent but he did indeed admit he could have made a mistake. Bonnett's log would obviously record the time he received the call from West because that's when 'he received the call from West  ;D. I don't understand your point? Jeremy obviously called West shortly before 03:26 and West called Bonnett at 03:26.

No, speculation doesn't mean something is wrong or unlikely (we all do it). However, it is a massive stretch of the imagination to accept that the police conspired to frame an innocent man (in the face of knowing the real culprit) almost from day one. For what reason would the cast list have for keep such a secret all of these years? There are so many ways to get information out there and yet there is nothing. Jeremy wasn't/isn't important enough for people to risk their careers to keep him inside - he just wasn't/isn't. The police would have told the relatives to get on their bike, they don't like being told what to do - the relatives just didn't have the power that is being accredited to them.

I haven't got time to reply to either paragraph, both of which I am in disagreement with. I'll be back on when I get a chance. Probably tomorrow.