Author Topic: Why didn't Taff Jones tell Bamber & the relatives about Nevill's call ?  (Read 25011 times)

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Offline Caroline

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It's a strange thing to do for no reason but someone definitely did-what's your opinion on it Buddy?

No one necessarily put Nevill's head in the coal scuttle, he may have just fallen and landed in that position.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Caroline

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Can you honestly see Sheila leaving her fathers head in the coal skuttle.

And weren't his PJ bottoms part way down?

Yes Steph, they were down to his knees.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Adam

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No one necessarily put Nevill's head in the coal scuttle, he may have just fallen and landed in that position.

If Nevill fell backwards while Bamber was hitting his arms, watch and face with the rifle butt he would have just landed on his back on the floor.

It would be massive good and back luck for Bamber. That 6.4 Nevill fell forward so slowly and accurately that he landed face first on his knees on top of a coal scuttle. And his heavy body weight and falling forward momentum didn't even knock it over.  Did he fall in slow motion ?

Good luck in that Bamber could lift Nevill's pyjama top up to burn his back. And shoot his head easily.

Bad luck in that it highlights a frame.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 07:21:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jaycad73

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Colin Stagg was charged with the murder of Rachel Nickell, but acquitted (the court threw the case out). The police didn't apologize to Colin Stagg until someone else had been convicted of the murder.
That's right-I remember now! Didn't the police use the 'honey trap' in an attempt to get Stagg to confess? Another example of the less than honest side of the police.

Offline Caroline

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That's right-I remember now! Didn't the police use the 'honey trap' in an attempt to get Stagg to confess? Another example of the less than honest side of the police.

Yes, she was a police officer called Lizzy James. The guy they eventually caught for the murder is called Robert Napper, he actually looks similar to Colin Stagg.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Adam

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Napper was the Green Chain rapist.

He was a suspect in the Nikell murder after people said he looked like the photo fit.

Napper failed to attend an appointment to give a blood sample. Two policemen then visited Napper but failed to take a blood sample as Napper made them a coffee and looked taller than the suspect.

Napper then became a suspect again. After being charged with the horrendous murder of Samantha Blissett and her son. However by now the police had their sights set on Stagg and policemen who thought Napper might be guilty were ignored. 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 09:12:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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The Nikell murder showed the police are not afraid to change stance and admit they had made mistakes. The police using new technology to nail Napper. Fourteen years after incorrectly charging Stagg.

The police admitted they had Napper as a suspect on two occasions but just pursued Stagg. 

They could have kept quiet the fact that they didn't get a blood sample from Napper which meant he could continue with his crimes.

In the Bamber case the police didn't really change stance, as Bamber was charged after just one month. But unlike the Nikell and other crimes, no one within the police or courts have said it was a mistake to charge Bamber.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 09:49:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Roch

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David recently provided a link to an old campaigning website for SH. I thought it had been removed from the www and wasn't aware it could still be found.

However, here are a list of some of the police errors regarding that case.


"Errors and misconduct by the Police:

•  On January the 8 th , Lynne Hall (mother of the defendant) was let in to the victim's house without protective clothing with 2 officers also not wearing protective clothing to ascertain whether anything was missing from the house. Whilst in the property, things were touched and broken glass trodden in. This means the house may have been contaminated by Mrs Hall who then returned to her home which had not yet been forensically tested. It is therefore possible for any fibres found in her house (Mrs Hall's) to have been transferred on that day.

•  Although Simon often stayed and kept some of his clothes during and after the murder at Stephanie Bon's house in Colchester , no forensic tests were ever carried out despite Stephanie herself telling the police when she was interviewed. Also, Simon was teaching Stephanie to drive at the time and did so in his vehicles, none of her clothes were ever analysed and yet the fibres found in one of the vehicle were secondary, she does have garments closely resembling the material described in reports.

•  The police never took finger prints from Shaun Hall, Simon's brother during their investigation despite them trying to eliminate everyone.

•  4 bags of forensic evidence were left at Shaun's flat at the time by the police even though at the trial, they assured us of a foolproof system regarding forensic evidence.

•  The police spent a lot of time chasing up pubic hair found at Joan's in the upstairs toilet to find it was one of their own officer whom had left them. To our knowledge, it is not common practice for police officers to use scene of crime for such activities.

•  Police Pathologist did not attend and carry out certain tests at the scene (which are outlined in Home Office guidelines) which would have given us a time of death or at least some idea.

•  When interviewing people, it was noted by certain potential witnesses that confidential information regarding Simon Hall and details of the case were disclosed by the police which could have influenced their statements or opinions.

•  We feel that quite a substantial amount of evidence was held back from the defence prior and during the trial, such as Gastroenterologist report (see below, stomach content) this was kept as unused evidence. It as only found by the diligence of the solicitor for Simon who was reading files each night during the case. There were also evidence found from people stating that they had heard a loud noise around 2am , again in unused evidence files.

•  Whilst trying to contact a member of Mrs Hall's family (her Brother) at his work place, as he was out of the office at the time, information was given to his colleagues regarding the case, this was even prior to Simon's arrest and is surely a case of gross misconduct.

•  Mrs Hall recollected a jacket which may have been made of the same fibre and that had been borrowed from a work colleague so to help the police this garment was made available but when produced in court, the prosecution used it to accuse her of trying to mislead them as it was made of the wrong material.

•  Although it was proven by other witness statements that Mrs Hall once had a clothes business run from home, the prosecution accused her of lying about it and not telling the police earlier on in the investigation. The defence were not given time after this accusation to prove otherwise.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080511202109/http://justice4simon.co.uk/whyIsSimonInnocent.php


Like the Bamber case, the police were forced to admit they made mistakes.

Police officers aren't a superior breed of human being, they are the same as you and I Roch. Meaning they make mistakes, just like a group of people can collectively make a mistake.

I don't believe these mistakes should be downplayed nor indeed do I think they have been. Essex police most probably learned many vital lessons following their involvement in the Bamber case.

You don't state the names of the police officers to which you refer having had concerns of seeing "corpse and the crime scene.

But they had initially been duped by Bamber and thought they were dealing with a murder/suicide. I don't think you understand how deceptive and believable men like Bamber can be and the impact they can have on all those around them at the time.

The collective concern to which you refer, is supportive of how they may have initially been taken in by Bamber.

Hi Steph,

I did state the names.

Quote
PS, Adams one of the senior firearms officers, told DCI Dickinson in his interview that after the firearms team had left the scene and were later shown photographs of the scene to assist them in making statements, they had queried the position of Sheila’s body. Adam’s Interview notes show below that, like two others of the initial raid team Collins & Delgado, he too had the same concerns that Sheila had been moved after he left the scene:
 
“Photo of Sheila not in same position as when I saw it”
Head too close to bedside table
Not sure about angle of head but something not right
No recollection of gun
Bible shown next to body, was level with waist 12” – 18” away


PC Delgado told DI Dickinson in his interview:

“Looked at video of photographs of scene. As a result PC Collins and I not happy with position of the bible by Sheila’s body. I was happy with the position of the body in relation to furniture. We felt they were real concerns and we spoke to DS Jones, DCI Jones initially reassured us body was as it had been. Later stage further discussion, unhappy as a group. Feelings passed onto inspector Montgomery and interview with Supt Ainsley arranged. Reassured body had not been moved. I’m happy to accept this fact now although in the back of my mind still a shadow of doubt. Were we clouded by what we saw because of the tenseness of the situation or could they have been moved ??”

PC Collins at the end of his Dickinson interview stated that they didn’t doubt it being a murder-suicide and also questioned the movement of Sheila’s body:

“Query photo’s – bible/head Sheila.”


I also do not agree with Caroline that the meeting with Ainsley was a 'debrief'.  These officers expressed concerns internally but they were not prepared to express concerns outside of their chain of command.

This is one of the problems in the Bamber case.  Nobody thinks they should 'take the rap' for decisions that were made - which they either didn't agree or which was either outside of their control or represented following an order from their chain of command. 

Now i know what you are going to reply with... it was the police under pressure... they made an error etc etc.  Instead of posting up links about unconscious bias - how about recognising some 'conscious bias' instead?  The kind that means you have to interpret every anomaly as an innocent mistake - otherwise it doesn't fit in to your stance on the case. 

Jeremy Bamber has been in prison for 30 years because of a crime scene based on photographs that were taken after these officers left the scene. 

Offline Jaycad73

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The Nikell murder showed the police are not afraid to change stance and admit they had made mistakes. The police using new technology to nail Napper. Fourteen years after incorrectly charging Stagg

In the Bamber case the police didn't really change stance, as Bamber was charged after just one month. But unlike the Nikell and other crimes, no one within the police or courts have said it was a mistake to charge Bamber.
No, but it was a mistake (as admitted by EP ) to have approached the scene initially with a firm belief of murder-suicide rather than with an open mind and I believe that evidence was lost/tainted/not looked for that could have led (whether it be at the time or later when DNA testing was more advanced) to many of the unanswered questions and theories becoming void.

Offline Roch

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No, but it was a mistake (as admitted by EP ) to have approached the scene initially with a firm belief of murder-suicide rather than with an open mind and I believe that evidence was lost/tainted/not looked for that could have led (whether it be at the time or later when DNA testing was more advanced) to many of the unanswered questions and theories becoming void.

It was not a mistake - because the officers originally at the scene knew what had happened. It was a mistake to try and cover up what went wrong and a mistake by ACC Simpson to allow himself to be effectively blackmailed by Robert Boutflour. A man no longer alive but who has a lot to answer for.

Offline Adam

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No, but it was a mistake (as admitted by EP ) to have approached the scene initially with a firm belief of murder-suicide rather than with an open mind and I believe that evidence was lost/tainted/not looked for that could have led (whether it be at the time or later when DNA testing was more advanced) to many of the unanswered questions and theories becoming void.

The police entered WHF after several hours with no firm belief. Although Bamber had spent all night incinuating Sheila without encouragement.

The crime scene photographer and pathologist did their jobs. The crime scene had not been disturbed beforehand. As you suggested without substance yesterday.

Some carpets were removed after the event. That could have implicated Bamber if his bloodied shoe print was on the carpet. It would not have implicated Sheila as she did not step in any blood. Her feet had no blood on.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 10:19:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline David1819

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In the Bamber case the police didn't really change stance, as Bamber was charged after just one month. But unlike the Nikell and other crimes, no one within the police or courts have said it was a mistake to charge Bamber.

I've explained to you why this is incorrect. Why do you keep repeating information you know is false?

The Nikell murder showed the police are not afraid to change stance and admit they had made mistakes. The police using new technology to nail Napper. Fourteen years after incorrectly charging Stagg.

It also shows they are fully prepared to carry out sting operations to find a smoking gun. Jeremy's "confessions" to Julie had all the prerequisites for a classic sting operation to nail Jeremy's guilt beyond all doubt. Why did they let such an opportunity slip? because there was nothing to record in the first place  ;)

Offline Roch

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The police entered WHF after several hours with no firm belief. Although Bamber had spent all night incinuating Sheila without encouragement.


He answered police questions on the phone and at the scene and then blamed the TFG for having killed his family.

The crime scene photographer and pathologist did their jobs. The crime scene had not been disturbed beforehand. As you suggested without substance yesterday.

Clearly it had - as per the concerns raised on at least two occasions by TFG members - so much so that they spoke with both heads of investigation at both of its' stages. 

Some carpets were removed after the event. That could have implicated Bamber if his bloodied shoe print was on the carpet. It would not have implicated Sheila as she did not step in any blood. Her feet had no blood on.

Would depend upon whether she wore any footwear or socks?  The distinctive bloodstain that the police used the bible with the bloody palm print to cover (when they staged the scene) - was probably also destroyed in the process?  So the destruction of carpets would have been doing police a favour.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 10:28:AM by Roch »

Offline Adam

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I've explained to you why this is incorrect. Why do you keep repeating information you know is false?

It also shows they are fully prepared to carry out sting operations to find a smoking gun. Jeremy's "confessions" to Julie had all the prerequisites for a classic sting operation to nail Jeremy's guilt beyond all doubt. Why did they let such an opportunity slip? because there was nothing to record in the first place  ;)

What is incorrect ?

The police charged Bamber after one month. Although he was a suspect a lot earlier. Fact.

No one in the police or courts have since said charging Bamber was incorrect. Fact.


That must be it. The police got Julie to write a false WS and lie in court.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 10:37:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jaycad73

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It was not a mistake - because the officers originally at the scene knew what had happened. It was a mistake to try and cover up what went wrong and a mistake by ACC Simpson to allow himself to be effectively blackmailed by Robert Boutflour. A man no longer alive but who has a lot to answer for.
Well, thats a matter of opinion isn't it? I agree that there was some attempt to disguise a cock up of some sort and/or misdirection from some person(s)-whether it was the perpetrator or the police (or both!) is also a matter of opinion.
I agree about the Boutflour/Eatons having possible ulterior motives.