2002 Appeal: Determining the time of Bamber's second call to Julie:

[notsure]

Great post gringo, I was trying to say this earlier but you have summed it up perfectly.

[Caroline]

    It is my view that the whole issue around the timings and JB's lack of clarity on the issue is misdirection by the prosecution and those who advocate for JB's guilt.
    Whilst any discrepancy, regarding times of calls by Bamber, is seized upon by some as evidence of his lies and therefore his guilt, apparently the same standard does not apply to any prosecution witness or Essex Police, all of whom are rather vague on their own timings.
    As with Bamber, I wouldn't expect Mugford or her flatmates to accurately recall the call time. This expectation is supported by the fact that it is unarguable that either all but one (at best) didn't recall the time accurately or (more likely) all of them didn't. None of them initially agreed on the time of the call and there was a wide discrepancy between them all.
    Claims that Bamber would know the times and that any discrepancies are indicative of guilt are based on nothing but irrelevant personal anecdotes and dubious assertions of how the poster would would apparently react themselves.
    Neither Bamber nor Mugford and her flatmates agreed on the time of the call.
    With this in mind it is also unreasonable to expect JB to know to the minute as and when things unfolded. The use of these discrepancies, if anything, shows the weakness of the conviction.
     The important questions about the timings is why Essex Police also show "discrepancies". People woken in the middle of the night are not expected to recall accurate timelines of events. Most people , in my view, would be pretty vague if asked to recall a timeline of events some time after said events in these circumstances.
     Essex Police weren't woken in the middle of the night and it is an important part of their job to accurately and contemporaneously record phone calls times and events. They either failed to do this (made mistakes) or lied.
     Unsurprisingly Essex Police claim that their discrepancies are mistakes and that JB is a liar.
     What is more surprising is that others let EP off the hook so easily and are prepared to believe that an organisation, whose job it is to accurately record information contemporaneously, can make simple mistakes but aren't lying and also believe that JB should be 100% accurate and any discrepancies by him are lies.
      This is reason turned upside down.
      Good posts, by the way, Bill
     

West made a mistake, not the whole of EP. Whereas Jeremy has shifted the times of his call(s) to suit whatever story he is trying to fit in - at the moment, it's a fictitious call from Nevill. The times given in Julie's first statement, were to support Jeremy's story - that is why there is a discrepancy between what she said then, and what she said later. I supposed all of the flat mates lied? For what purpose?

[guest7363]

    It is my view that the whole issue around the timings and JB's lack of clarity on the issue is misdirection by the prosecution and those who advocate for JB's guilt.
    Whilst any discrepancy, regarding times of calls by Bamber, is seized upon by some as evidence of his lies and therefore his guilt, apparently the same standard does not apply to any prosecution witness or Essex Police, all of whom are rather vague on their own timings.
    As with Bamber, I wouldn't expect Mugford or her flatmates to accurately recall the call time. This expectation is supported by the fact that it is unarguable that either all but one (at best) didn't recall the time accurately or (more likely) all of them didn't. None of them initially agreed on the time of the call and there was a wide discrepancy between them all.
    Claims that Bamber would know the times and that any discrepancies are indicative of guilt are based on nothing but irrelevant personal anecdotes and dubious assertions of how the poster would would apparently react themselves.
    Neither Bamber nor Mugford and her flatmates agreed on the time of the call.
    With this in mind it is also unreasonable to expect JB to know to the minute as and when things unfolded. The use of these discrepancies, if anything, shows the weakness of the conviction.
     The important questions about the timings is why Essex Police also show "discrepancies". People woken in the middle of the night are not expected to recall accurate timelines of events. Most people , in my view, would be pretty vague if asked to recall a timeline of events some time after said events in these circumstances.
     Essex Police weren't woken in the middle of the night and it is an important part of their job to accurately and contemporaneously record phone calls times and events. They either failed to do this (made mistakes) or lied.
     Unsurprisingly Essex Police claim that their discrepancies are mistakes and that JB is a liar.
     What is more surprising is that others let EP off the hook so easily and are prepared to believe that an organisation, whose job it is to accurately record information contemporaneously, can make simple mistakes but aren't lying and also believe that JB should be 100% accurate and any discrepancies by him are lies.
      This is reason turned upside down.
      Good posts, by the way, Bill
     

A very good and fair post Gringo.  I think it will be impossible to pin point any true and accurate times now, which is a shame, the one thing that would have helped and cleared things better would have been a 999 call?  They are more accurate with time keeping and used to this sort of call, maybe it threw West and Bonnet with the nature of the call that would normally gone through emergency services and not the local police? 

How do we believe anyone, everyone changed their story, Julie changed hers because she was covering up for Bamber and probably had pressure from the police, Bamber could not remember the times he made the calls, if he phoned Julie first then the police, also he could not remember what he said to Julie yet Julie could, he changed his story from Sheila to Sister to she.

[Caroline]

A very good and fair post Gringo.  I think it will be impossible to pin point any true and accurate times now, which is a shame, the one thing that would have helped and cleared things better would have been a 999 call?  They are more accurate with time keeping and used to this sort of call, maybe it threw West and Bonnet with the nature of the call that would normally gone through emergency services and not the local police? 

How do we believe anyone, everyone changed their story, Julie changed hers because she was covering up for Bamber and probably had pressure from the police, Bamber could not remember the times he made the calls, if he phoned Julie first then the police, also he could not remember what he said to Julie yet Julie could, he changed his story from Sheila to Sister to she.

I think he said 'sister' first because that is what is written on the log.

[guest7363]

I think he said 'sister' first because that is what is written on the log.

Ok thanks Caroline, the one thing both Julie and Bamber both agreed on, he didn't speak long because he had to phone the police.

[mike tesko]

West made a mistake, not the whole of EP. Whereas Jeremy has shifted the times of his call(s) to suit whatever story he is trying to fit in - at the moment, it's a fictitious call from Nevill. The times given in Julie's first statement, were to support Jeremy's story - that is why there is a discrepancy between what she said then, and what she said later. I supposed all of the flat mates lied? For what purpose?

Jeremy hasn't shifted the times of any phone calls received by him, or made by him, unanswered or answered. The times attributable to the times he received a call, or made them, have been estimated or calculated by others on his behalf, using a methodical process involving when he could have received a call, or made one, irrespective of whether a call he made was answered or not. Why would Jeremy say he tried to call Witham police station before he phoned Julie but that he got no response, which was why he then phoned Julie, to tell her that 'there was something wrong at the farm', and she told him to 'go back to bed', only for it to be discovered that when Jeremy said he tried to call Witham, Bews, Myall, and Saxby were not present because the three of them had been called out to deal with another job. They did not return to Witham police station until around 3.34am, So, we know that what Jeremy said about not being able to contact anybody when he called Witham, is true. This fits in with Jeremy phoning Julie at 3.30am, and telling her that ' there's something wrong at the farm', and she tells him, 'to go back to bed'. Nothing whatsoever suspicious then regarding what Jeremy did right from the moment he received the call from Neville at around 3.25am. He tried to ring Neville back, got the engaged tone, he tried to ring Witham police station but got no response, he rang Julie, she told him to go back to bed. He then looked up the number for Chelmsford police station and rang them at 3.36am, and spoke to PC West...

[Caroline]

Jeremy hasn't shifted the times of any phone calls received by him, or made by him, unanswered or answered. The times attributable to the times he received a call, or made them, have been estimated or calculated by others on his behalf, using a methodical process involving when he could have received a call, or made one, irrespective of whether a call he made was answered or not. Why would Jeremy say he tried to call Witham police station before he phoned Julie but that he got no response, which was why he then phoned Julie, to tell her that 'there was something wrong at the farm', and she told him to 'go back to bed', only for it to be discovered that when Jeremy said he tried to call Witham, Bews, Myall, and Saxby were not present because the three of them had been called out to deal with another job. They did not return to Witham police station until around 3.34am, So, we know that what Jeremy said about not being able to contact anybody when he called Witham, is true. This fits in with Jeremy phoning Julie at 3.30am, and telling her that ' there's something wrong at the farm', and she tells him, 'to go back to bed'. Nothing whatsoever suspicious then regarding what Jeremy did right from the moment he received the call from Neville at around 3.25am. He tried to ring Neville back, got the engaged tone, he tried to ring Witham police station but got no response, he rang Julie, she told him to go back to bed. He then looked up the number for Chelmsford police station and rang them at 3.36am, and spoke to PC West...

No, he said he got the call at 03:10 not 03:25, in fact that's when he said he called Julie.

[Adam]

Ok thanks Caroline, the one thing both Julie and Bamber both agreed on, he didn't speak long because he had to phone the police.

They agree on a lot regarding this call. Although Julie went into specifics of words said.

Bamber intially said 'no comment'. Although his WS & court testimony sees him agreeing with  most of what Julie said.

[Steve_uk]

Didn't I read somewhere that Jeremy said he now realizes his dad did telephone Police but he didn't know until 2002?

[lookout]

He didn't know a lot of things until it was too late,then it fell on deaf ears and remains to do so with EP.

[Caroline]

Didn't I read somewhere that Jeremy said he now realizes his dad did telephone Police but he didn't know until 2002?

Because of the log, he said he discovered in 2007 - however, it's been there all the time and was available to the court.

[Stephanie]

They agree on a lot regarding this call. Although Julie went into specifics of words said.

Bamber intially said 'no comment'. Although his WS & court testimony sees him agreeing with  most of what Julie said.

Out of interest Adam, did you post on the forum when SH confessed and did you witness the way I was treated by some people who had decided they weren't going to believe the confession. They needed to hear it from SH. They needed to see evidence etc etc

What motive would I have for making up a confession? And why have people stopped asking about the validity of the confession?

I say the same about Julie Mugford's evidence. What reason did she have to lie.

[Stephanie]

Because of the log, he said he discovered in 2007 - however, it's been there all the time and was available to the court.

Just as SH did and indeed other prisoners maintaining innocence do.

They look for technicalities to manipulate.

They then sell the manipulated idea to others as proof of innocence, charming them in the process.

The seed of doubt is sown...

[Adam]

Out of interest Adam, did you post on the forum when SH confessed and did you witness the way I was treated by some people who had decided they weren't going to believe the confession. They needed to hear it from SH. They needed to see evidence etc etc

What motive would I have for making up a confession? And why have people stopped asking about the validity of the confession?

I say the same about Julie Mugford's evidence. What reason did she have to lie.

I've never gone onto any other topics.

Interestingly supporters used to say Julie testified against Bamber because the police knew about her cheque book fraud. A quick bit of detective work showed she had already completed her WS by the time the police found out. And it was Julie who told the police about the caravan break in.

The one remaining reason given is that she was jilted. 

[JackiePreece]

I've never gone onto any other topics.

Interestingly supporters used to say Julie testified against Bamber because the police knew about her cheque book fraud. A quick bit of detective work showed she had already completed her WS by the time the police found out. And it was Julie who told the police about the caravan break in.

The one remaining reason given is that she was jilted.

Adam
I would think you know the difinitive answer to that question.  It came from Julie's lips herself.  Roughly what she told the court she had said to JB 'if I can't have you knobody can' she certainly achieved that and because of all the media attention she received she knew by helping to get Jeremy found guilty she was in line for a massive pay day
Money and possessions were very important to her, that's why she carried out the cheque
The fraud was a cunning plan with little chance of her ever getting caught