Author Topic: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!  (Read 15210 times)

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Offline Jane

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2016, 09:57:PM »
In 2014 a new Personality Disorder Unit was being built at HMP Wayland. The units are referred to as PIPE. I posted about this the other day. They are a new initiative being introduced into UK prisons. I've wondered recently if Jeremy Bamber is housed on a PD unit and whether or not that was the reason he transferred out of the last prison?

I've been meaning to reply to Mike's earlier post about when he met Jeremy. Mike talks about how he met him and then goes on to talk about another time, a few years on. I'm interested to learn about the bit in between...*

For what it's worth, SH always said Bamber was a psychopath too.

*Good luck with that ;)

I'm sure there's a name for a prisoner in denial, or an abbreviation for it? I can't recall. not that it matters.

Offline Stephanie

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2016, 10:03:PM »
 ;D ;D He also said he never wanted to be associated with him. Why was this I wonder?


Lookout has described Jeremy Bamber behaving like SH. He too took things in his stride but by 2012 I started calling him out on it.

This isn't the behaviour of someone who is cool, calm and collected and 'innocent.' Far from it - this is someone who is deceptive. This is someone who's fight and flight responses are off kilter; or non existent? This is someone displaying the ability to remain cool under pressure...
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 10:14:PM by Stephanie »
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Offline lookout

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2016, 10:19:PM »
So if I started to give a description of myself,you'd come up with Myra Hindley,would you ?  ::) ::)

Offline Stephanie

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2016, 10:20:PM »




Mike I agree that having a personality disorder doesn't rate you a killer. Neither does having the worst temper in the world. It's interesting to note the old adage by saying " the quiet ones are the worst " and less trusting than those who are vocal. Very true.
Much has been said about Jeremy's " high " lifestyle and outgoing personality,arrogance and don't-care attitude which denotes openness.Rather that than a sulky,sullen,deep-thinking person who you'd never know what he was thinking. I'd say beware. Jeremy had too big a mouth to have kept anything to himself.
Sheila had been the sombre one on the night of the murders. !

Here's the point Lookout. A Forensic Psychologist deemed Jeremy Bamber to not have a PD.... David will explain it for you.

And another observation:

One minute supporters are claiming Bamber isn't personality disordered (PD). Then they are suggesting he may be PD but it doesn't make him a murderer. Why are his supporters not recognising the cognitive dissonance in relation to their arguments?

One minute Jeremy Bamber isn't this and then he is? Where is the middle ground? Where is the balanced and rationale Jeremy Bamber? Where is the balanced and rationale argument? Who is the man they are supporting?

« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 10:49:PM by Stephanie »
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Offline Stephanie

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2016, 10:33:PM »
;D ;D He also said he never wanted to be associated with him. Why was this I wonder?

Research suggests psychopaths know what they are. Research also suggests psychopaths can spot other psychopaths.

The inquest concluded SH did not have a PD nor any mental health issues? I wonder if he was assessed using the same methods at those used to assess Jeremy Bamber? (Rhetorical Q)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 10:43:PM by Stephanie »
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Offline lookout

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2016, 10:57:PM »
Here's the point Lookout. A Forensic Psychologist deemed Jeremy Bamber to not have a PD.... David will explain it for you.



My views are very fixed regarding the mind as a lifetime of experience has taught me and is not necessarily all theory either or a string of letters after my name.
 My daughter is even better at it than I am, as a friend who she stayed with this year had invited the boyfriend of over 5 years to pay a visit. Daughter took an instant dislike to this man,just a " feeling " that she had,she'd said, and told her friend of her feelings.
During the night the friend and boyfriend had an argument and the man became physically violent,to which my daughter had said she didn't like him anyway and the friend threw him out never to see him again. He'd never shown violence in those 5 odd years. Perhaps he too sensed that my daughter was no fool/pushover. Saved from a fate worse than death I'd have said.
Daughter is in security so that's where her experience comes from.

Offline David1819

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2016, 11:42:PM »
Research suggests psychopaths know what they are. Research also suggests psychopaths can spot other psychopaths.

Then how comes Dr Fallon was surprised to discover he was a psychopath after looking at his own brain scan?

The inquest concluded SH did not have a PD nor any mental health issues? I wonder if he was assessed using the same methods at those used to assess Jeremy Bamber? (Rhetorical Q)

Just because SH committed murder does not make him ill or abnormal.

According to a court hearing in 2003. SH was anxious about the situation of being a suspect.

"He had voiced anxiety before arrest that he might be suspected of the murder.  The Crown presented this as indicative of guilt."

That is not typical of Psychopaths.

"One might therefore speculate that
pure “primary psychopathy,” characterized
by an essential absence of anxiety, could constitute
a relatively distinct group of persons
because the impact of declining anxiety on
social behavior accelerates as anxiety declines.
Put differently, it is one thing to be relatively
less anxious than most people but
perhaps quite another thing to be entirely
lacking in the capacity for appropriate anxious
arousal. Thus, one could imagine a nonlinear
regression of trait anxiety on the
tendency to violate societal norms, such that the
conjunction of a basic lack of anxiety with
norm violation represents a rather distinct
group of persons."

HANDBOOK OF PSYCHOPATHY by CHRISTOPHER J. PATRICK PhD

I have the whole book in PDF if you want a copy Stephanie
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 11:44:PM by David1819 »

Offline Stephanie

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2016, 11:44:PM »
The contents of the timed police message logs, 7.37am, 7.38am, and 8.10am were on record, before Jeremy Bamber came into contact with the type of prisoners being alluded to. The recorded facts in these logs, the sighting of the rifle at a first floor window, and the Photographing of the rifle resting against the main bedroom window, prior to the same rifle being photographed upon and with Sheila's body. You do not have to be a prisoner, or have a good education to be able to see that the only rifle found upstairs on the morning of the shootings, was both at a first floor window, and it was photographed at the main bedroom window, before the same rifle was photographed by police with and upon Sheila Caffells body. Nobody has to manipulate anything, the truth is all there in the recorded facts. Bamber is entitled to rely upon this to reinforce his claim from day one, which is that he did not kill his family. His sister was one of the five victims. These facts as alluded to by me here, support the case for him not having shot and killed his sister, for him not having staged her body with the rifle from the first floor window, so that police would be fooled into thinking his sister had taken her own life, there on the main bedroom floor. How could this be true, with the police having the rifle at a first floor window before they photograph it with Sheila's body almost three hours afterwards? A lot can happen in three hours, inside a remote farmhouse. What is a rather disturbing feature in this case, is the involvement by senior officers in the practice of 'informatives' between 9.00am and 10.00am? What was there to work out, if Sheila's body had been laid out on the main bedroom floor with the rifle when police first entered the main bedroom?

The now known facts, enforce Bambers claim that he had not killed his sister, or staged her body to make it look like suicide, after a massacre. Bamber has had no influence  upon me in arriving at this conclusion.  I arrived at this conclusion after careful consideration of the now known facts. If these facts had not been deliberately withheld from Bamber and his defence for his trial, would almost certainly have compelled the jury to reject the prosecutions case in its entirety. Certainly, these are valid grounds of appeal, since these facts were not known to the defence at the time of Bambers trial. Not surprisingly, the police and the prosecution sought to withhold all of this evidence no doubt fully aware of the impact upon its own case...

But what you are referring to are technicalities Mike.
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Offline Stephanie

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2016, 12:07:AM »
Just because SH committed murder does not make him ill or abnormal.

According to a court hearing in 2003. SH was anxious about the situation of being a suspect.

"He had voiced anxiety before arrest that he might be suspected of the murder.  The Crown presented this as indicative of guilt."

That is not typical of Psychopaths.

Where did the information come from with regards SH voicing anxiety before his arrest? Who was the source?

Prior to his court hearing, he was assessed by a forensic psychologist (FP). She concluded, if found guilty it was likely he had a dissocial personality disorder (Aka Antisocial PD)

However David, the various sources the FP used in order to draw her conclusions were either inaccurate, false or misleading. There was very little factual information contained in the various documents she had access to. And during the numerous meetings she had with SH, he lied to her.

The FP did not assess SH in relation to the factual disclosures which were his confession (2013) because SH maintained he was innocent, plus the FP assessment was based on a burglary gone wrong motive. 

What are your conclusions with regards SH? If he wasn't ill or abnormal, what was he? What type of person commits the type of crime he did?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 12:12:AM by Stephanie »
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Offline David1819

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2016, 01:13:AM »
Where did the information come from with regards SH voicing anxiety before his arrest? Who was the source?

Here

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218200720/http:/www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/144_10267.htm

What are your conclusions with regards SH? If he wasn't ill or abnormal, what was he? What type of person commits the type of crime he did?

I would say the most plausible motive would be burglary gone wrong. The decision to commit the murder was probably a split second (fight or flight) scenario. The victim could identify him plus she was old and weak. Thus eliminating was victim was a primitive response a short sighted solution to the problem.

As for his continual protests of innocence. I am under the impression his parents/family assumed his innocence and flat out denied it was possible without ever asking him or talking to him about it (correct me if I am wrong). This would only have encouraged him to deny the murder. If I was in such situation I can imagine my parents cross examining me and telling me to be honest because I wont get away with it. 

As for SH personally I cannot really comment. I never met him.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2016, 10:17:AM »
But what you are referring to are technicalities Mike.

No, these timed and logged events cannot be treated as technicalities, in the sense that Sheila's body might not have been upstairs on the bedroom floor with the rifle in her possession at 7.15am, and 7.37am until after 8.10am, these are facts which establish that her body wasn't there with the rifle in her possession at these specific times. I didn't pass the messages at these times, neither did Jeremy, or any body else, other than the police. The police said Sheila's body is in the kitchen at 7.37am, and 7.38am. They also said that there were only a further three bodies upstairs at 8.10am. They confirmed this by passing that live commentary from the scene at that time, that only one female body was found upstairs in addition to the two child victims. That female body could not have been Sheila Caffell, it had to be June Bamber. This is because the female body in the kitchen was known to have committed suicide by 7.45am that morning. The discovery of the three bodies upstairs did not occur until some 25 minutes after staff in the control room were referring to the two bodies that had been found in the kitchen as a male, and a female, as a murder, and a suicide. Therefore, the first two references to bodies in the kitchen, related to Ralph Bamber, then to Sheila Caffell. 25 minutes later, firearm officers did find June, and the two child victims upstairs, five dead in total. Two plus three equals five. Two bodies in kitchen three other bodies upstairs. It's not a technicality, it's factual, and true. It adds up. It makes sense. It's logical. Just because the police operation went pearshaped with the unexpected recovery of Sheila in the kitchen after 8.10am, was not Jeremy's fault. The cops and the CPS have dug themselves into a huge hole, by fabricating the evidence in order to promote Sheila's death scene on the main bedroom floor prior to firearm officers having entered the farmhouse, when the actual truth is that Sheila's body was found in the kitchen after the body of Ralph Bamber was found. This is the order that the five bodies were found in by the firearm officers, Ralph, Sheila, June, Daniel and Nicholas by reference to the official police message log contents. The contents of police witness statements claim the order the five bodies were found in was, Ralph, June, Sheila, Daniel and Nicholas. The former account had the benefit of an eavesdrop of the kitchen phone, so what was found upon entry to the kitchen was actually reported, otherwise the audio recording of the eavesdrop of the entry would have not been destroyed but saved as evidential proof in any investigation into this very serious discrepancy of body count in the kitchen and upstairs...

These matters are not technicalities, we are talking about a serious case of police corruption here, where police officers and people in the CPS have conspired to pervert the course of justice, by falsely reporting the whereabouts of Sheila's body when cops entered the farmhouse on the first occasion. You can't refer to serious matters like these as a technicality...

It can't be put any clearer than I have set it out, it's all there in black and white, a two bodies in kitchen / three bodies upstairs scenario was prevalent downstairs between 7.37am to 8.10am, which became transformed into a one body in the kitchen / four bodies upstairs scenario, thereafter. This change came about as a result of an unexpected recovery of Sheila Caffell in the kitchen, who made her way upstairs to the main bedroom. There exists an officers report which deals with a shooting incident in the kitchen. That shooting relates to the original shooting of Sheila Caffell in the kitchen which caused the timed message at (7.37am) to be passed, '...the body of one dead female in kitchen'...

These facts alone prove that Jeremy Bamber did not shoot dead his sister in the main bedroom, or stage her death scene there. He would have had to have shot his sister in the bedroom with the rifle from a first floor window, and staged her body on the bedroom floor, not only after 8.10am, but after his sister had already been shot once by a police weapon (subject of the aforementioned officers report into that shooting in the kitchen). Bamber is innocent therefore, he did not kill his sister, he did not shoot her dead, he did not stage her death scene in the main bedroom, he did not remove any silencer from the barrel of the gun which killed her in the bedroom . How could he have when his sister's body did not arrive inside the main bedroom in that final phase until after 8.10am?

Impossible
Factual
Evidential...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 10:24:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2016, 10:29:AM »
This presentation of the now known facts, is a compelling argument for Bambers convictions to be quashed. Essex police cut out the detail which involved Sheila's body in the kitchen, prior to her getting killed, or dying upstairs in the bedroom. Without this deception Jeremy Bamber would almost certainly never have even been prosecuted for her death, let alone be at peril of ever getting convicted for her death...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2016, 10:44:AM »
A great deal has been written and spoken about regarding Bambers personality. It doesn't matter whether he's got a personality problem or even if he is considered to be a psychopath? I don't see him in terms of him being a psychopath, I always thought you couldn't be classed as a psychopath unless you had murdered somebody, or people? Perhaps I am wrong? But in any event, Bamber isn't a psychopath because he couldn't have killed his sister in the main bedroom after 8.10am, on that fateful date, 7th August 1985. It doesn't matter in terms of referring to him as a psychopath that he currently stands convicted of his sister's murder, because it was impossible for him to have been the person he is made out to be, he didn't shoot his sister dead after she had already been shot with a police weapon in the kitchen, and he didn't remove the silencer from the barrel of the rifle which fired the fatal bullet which killed her upstairs in the bedroom after 8.10am, or take the silencer downstairs to hide it in a cupboard in the den, quite simply, because he was never allowed to approach the farmhouse other than at around 4am when he tagged along with Bews and Myall at the time of the sighting of a silhouetted figure, or as the case may be, a trick of light...

Bamber is not a psychopath...

Bamber is a victim of a MOJ.

Obtain the officers report which details the circumstances of the shooting incident in the kitchen involving a cop and Sheila Caffell, and then ask yourselves - hang on a minute, how can a cop have shot Sheila in the kitchen, if her body was found upstairs with a different rifle on top of her body?

Suddenly, the penny will drop - suddenly, there will be nowhere for Essex police and the CPS to run, or hide...

Bingo!!!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2016, 11:06:AM »
Why hasn't the public heard anything at all from Essex Police about 'the shooting incident in the kitchen', at whf?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2016, 11:07:AM »
Why hasn't the public heard anything at all from Essex Police about 'the shooting incident in the kitchen', at whf?

If Essex police have not got anything to hide, what shooting does this officers report refer to?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...