telephone tapes

[andrea]

well, unless im mistaken it looks like a larger rug at the side



yes hartley the top pic.thanks for putting it up 

[Hartley]

well, unless im mistaken it looks like a larger rug at the side



yes hartley the top pic.thanks for putting it up 

No worries. 

It's difficult to tell, but I think I see what you mean, there are a couple of perpendicular lines on the floor which could indicate the edges of a rug.

[andrea]

yes if it was a glitch on the pic, the lines would go straight through the pic, but they end at the right places.

[grahameb]

It's a bit difficult to see with a photocopy of the photograph? I'm still drawn to the position of Sheila's body myself? She could never have shot herself in that position, let alone end up in that position. Unless of course she was lying down at the time? Can't say I can see any rug at all, let alone a larger rug at the side?

[Alias]

Hi Grahame
Sorry I missed your post I think I had fallen asleep and John I think it is very clear by now who is discredited the biggest problem now is how do they get out of the mess they are in without bringing the whole justice system down

Jeremys life might be ruined as he will never get the best years of his life back but if he could stop this happening to even one other person it might  help him to enjoy his future.

26 years and he is still fighting I doubt I would have been able to carry on like he has I would have given up years ago what a change around from that naive arrogant boy of 24

I hope his no good useless real father who abandoned him years ago hangs his head in shame one day for the nasty things he said about Jeremy to the press

What did he say? What impression could he have of his biological son - he didn´t know him, right?

[mike tesko]

It would appear that the boys were shot first, then the killer moved on and shot June. Ralph ran downstairs, but got no further. He wouldn't have called his feckless son - he would have called 999, asked for police and an ambulance, then, if he could, have run outside and alerted the farmhands. Sheila was still upstairs, terrified by the carnage, then found and executed. Badly. IMO.

What makes you think the boys were shot first?

I think they were shot first too, basically because they were not woken and in an undisturbed state, one was still sucking his thumb.

It's not a fact though, just an assumption.

-----------------

If true, why would somebody like Jeremy want to shoot and kill the children first?

Seems to me, that Ralph and June would need to be the first targets, and Sheila, because all of them would be a big threat to someone wanting to kill everybody...

[Hartley]

It would appear that the boys were shot first, then the killer moved on and shot June. Ralph ran downstairs, but got no further. He wouldn't have called his feckless son - he would have called 999, asked for police and an ambulance, then, if he could, have run outside and alerted the farmhands. Sheila was still upstairs, terrified by the carnage, then found and executed. Badly. IMO.

What makes you think the boys were shot first?

I think they were shot first too, basically because they were not woken and in an undisturbed state, one was still sucking his thumb.

It's not a fact though, just an assumption.

-----------------

If true, why would somebody like Jeremy want to shoot and kill the children first?

Seems to me, that Ralph and June would need to be the first targets, and Sheila, because all of them would be a big threat to someone wanting to kill everybody...

Yeah I don't really know, put them in any order any it never quite makes sense, whoever the shooter is. 

[mike tesko]

It would appear that the boys were shot first, then the killer moved on and shot June. Ralph ran downstairs, but got no further. He wouldn't have called his feckless son - he would have called 999, asked for police and an ambulance, then, if he could, have run outside and alerted the farmhands. Sheila was still upstairs, terrified by the carnage, then found and executed. Badly. IMO.

What makes you think the boys were shot first?

I think they were shot first too, basically because they were not woken and in an undisturbed state, one was still sucking his thumb.

It's not a fact though, just an assumption.

-----------------

If true, why would somebody like Jeremy want to shoot and kill the children first?

Seems to me, that Ralph and June would need to be the first targets, and Sheila, because all of them would be a big threat to someone wanting to kill everybody...

Yeah I don't really know, put them in any order any it never quite makes sense, whoever the shooter is. 

-----------

Yeah, but if you put the children at the start of this episode, it gives the impression that somebody did not want them being put into care, or being cared for by any foster parents - in my opinion...

That would be a reason why the kids might have been murdered first...

[Hartley]

It would appear that the boys were shot first, then the killer moved on and shot June. Ralph ran downstairs, but got no further. He wouldn't have called his feckless son - he would have called 999, asked for police and an ambulance, then, if he could, have run outside and alerted the farmhands. Sheila was still upstairs, terrified by the carnage, then found and executed. Badly. IMO.

What makes you think the boys were shot first?

I think they were shot first too, basically because they were not woken and in an undisturbed state, one was still sucking his thumb.

It's not a fact though, just an assumption.

-----------------

If true, why would somebody like Jeremy want to shoot and kill the children first?

Seems to me, that Ralph and June would need to be the first targets, and Sheila, because all of them would be a big threat to someone wanting to kill everybody...

Yeah I don't really know, put them in any order any it never quite makes sense, whoever the shooter is. 

-----------

Yeah, but if you put the children at the start of this episode, it gives the impression that somebody did not want them being put into care, or being cared for by any foster parents - in my opinion...

That would be a reason why the kids might have been murdered first...

Well if we're just inventing reasons, then with a bit of thought any one of us could come up with a plausible story fitting either view.

For example, JB knew he had to kill the twins in order to be awarded the whole inheritance, but he actually didn't dislike them and knew this would be a hard thing for him to do, so he decided that he would kill them first, that way there's no going back and he wouldn't want to kill his mum, dad and sister only to find that he was unable to go through with killing the twins.

Or for Sheila, the children were the main subject of her berserk rage, so she went straight to the kids room, killed them, then had a moment of clarity and realised what she had done, it then enraged her further and she went off and killed her mum and dad, then inconsolable she took her own life.

It's all probably fiction, but the end result is the same, five people were killed.

We could probably come up with a half decent theory that the twins were killed second, third or last as well.

[grahameb]

It would appear that the boys were shot first, then the killer moved on and shot June. Ralph ran downstairs, but got no further. He wouldn't have called his feckless son - he would have called 999, asked for police and an ambulance, then, if he could, have run outside and alerted the farmhands. Sheila was still upstairs, terrified by the carnage, then found and executed. Badly. IMO.

What makes you think the boys were shot first?

I think they were shot first too, basically because they were not woken and in an undisturbed state, one was still sucking his thumb.

It's not a fact though, just an assumption.

-----------------

If true, why would somebody like Jeremy want to shoot and kill the children first?

Seems to me, that Ralph and June would need to be the first targets, and Sheila, because all of them would be a big threat to someone wanting to kill everybody...

That I believe would be the actions of a paid assassin as well. Get rid of the greatest threat first and then clean up. If the dog was originally in the kitchen then that would be counted as a threat as well.

[mike tesko]

It would appear that the boys were shot first, then the killer moved on and shot June. Ralph ran downstairs, but got no further. He wouldn't have called his feckless son - he would have called 999, asked for police and an ambulance, then, if he could, have run outside and alerted the farmhands. Sheila was still upstairs, terrified by the carnage, then found and executed. Badly. IMO.

What makes you think the boys were shot first?

I think they were shot first too, basically because they were not woken and in an undisturbed state, one was still sucking his thumb.

It's not a fact though, just an assumption.

-----------------

If true, why would somebody like Jeremy want to shoot and kill the children first?

Seems to me, that Ralph and June would need to be the first targets, and Sheila, because all of them would be a big threat to someone wanting to kill everybody...

That I believe would be the actions of a paid assassin as well. Get rid of the greatest threat first and then clean up. If the dog was originally in the kitchen then that would be counted as a threat as well.

------------

I agree with your view, in general...

[Alias]

How much would the silencer have muffled (is that even a word?) the sound of the rifle?
Wouldn't there have been a great deal of noise in any case, with or without it?
Children can sleep through loud noises, I know, but that would be babies and toddlers, not six-year-olds. I am speculating.
There was no sign at all that the boys had woken up, which makes it likely they were shot first. One shot each at first - quickly. Then a few more shots to each of the poor boys.
I agree that an intruder would go for the grownups first. We could be talking about two perpetrators though, which makes the whole scenario totally different.

[ngb1066]

How much would the silencer have muffled (is that even a word?) the sound of the rifle?
Wouldn't there have been a great deal of noise in any case, with or without it?Children can sleep through loud noises, I know, but that would be babies and toddlers, not six-year-olds. I am speculating.
There was no sign at all that the boys had woken up, which makes it likely they were shot first. One shot each at first - quickly. Then a few more shots to each of the poor boys.
I agree that an intruder would go for the grownups first. We could be talking about two perpetrators though, which makes the whole scenario totally different.

I have posted on this subject earlier on another thread.  With the silencer fitted and subsonic ammunition used there would have been a very low level of noise - little more than a "click".  It has been suggested that some of the rounds fired at WHF were high velocity rather than subsonic.  In that case although the silencer would have reduced the muzzle noise the supersonic "crack" of the bullet would still have been audible.  I hope that helps.

[Alias]

How much would the silencer have muffled (is that even a word?) the sound of the rifle?
Wouldn't there have been a great deal of noise in any case, with or without it?Children can sleep through loud noises, I know, but that would be babies and toddlers, not six-year-olds. I am speculating.
There was no sign at all that the boys had woken up, which makes it likely they were shot first. One shot each at first - quickly. Then a few more shots to each of the poor boys.
I agree that an intruder would go for the grownups first. We could be talking about two perpetrators though, which makes the whole scenario totally different.

I have posted on this subject earlier on another thread.  With the silencer fitted and subsonic ammunition used there would have been a very low level of noise - little more than a "click".  It has been suggested that some of the rounds fired at WHF were high velocity rather than subsonic.  In that case although the silencer would have reduced the muzzle noise the supersonic "crack" of the bullet would still have been audible.  I hope that helps.

Thanks.
I had never heard of subsonic ammo. I don´t know the first thing about firearms!