Why Bamber pulled Sheila's feet forward two feet after the fatal shot:

[zoe]

O.k point taken, so when Bamber whipped the nightdress in a downward movement off a dead weight as other posters have stated, which looked cotton to me, why was there no creasing on the back of the nightdress in the back upper mid leg region of Sheila, when she was discovered and why no emphasis on this, because any CSI would catch these discrepancies.

[Adam]

If you had a shade of sense you would realise that I ment she shot herself then fell back. As dead bodies don't sit upright

You go by the 2002 appeal that decided not to submit Ismali's evidence?

520. Our conclusion was that we should not therefore admit the evidence and we have had no regard to it in reaching our conclusion.

Well done

You forgot the rest of the paragraoh -

520:

It can, however, be said about it that if it had been called at trial, it may well have represented yet another formidable string to the prosecution's bow in a case where even without any regard to that evidence, it has to be said that the prosecution were able to put forward a very strong case pointing to guilt.

Yes, this together with you're insistance that Sheila was sittiing up when shot, makes Bamber 100% guilty.

Lifeless seated bodies don't move forward at least two feet across the floor.

Thank you David.

[Adam]

If she had have been pulled down, her nightgown would have gone the opposite way, is their any evidence of prints/dna on her?

The expert in the 2002 appeal disagrees.

[Adam]

Sheila was a slightly built recovering anorexic so I doubt moving her a few inches would have presented any problems for an excited and excitable Jeremy in the grip of his own psychosis.

I should have included that in my thread post. She was very light, almost childlike.

So easy to pull during the frame setting.

[Adam]

Nobody can remain in a sitting position when dead.They loll to one side As in Sheila's case she'd slithered back with her head just missing the bedside cabinet.

People that fall asleep when sitting up, don't fall sideways.

Rigor mortis sets in on dead people and they just stiffen up in the same position.

Anyway her body would be hunched if it fell sideways. It was straight with her head infront of the cabinet.

[maggie]

People that fall asleep when sitting up, don't fall sideways.

Rigor mortis sets in on dead people and they just stiffen up in the same position.

Anyway her body would be hunched if it fell sideways. It was straight.

People who fall asleep when sitting up do often fall sideways depending on various other considerations.

Rigour mortis does not usually begin to set in until 2 to 6 hours after death. The first signs are the tightening of head and neck muscles before spreading to other muscles of the body, often not reaching its peak until 4 to 6 hours later. 

Sheila appears to have been a very slight build probably with a low muscle mass and therefore may not have been as affected by rigour mortis as someone with a high muscle mass.

Your arguments are flawed imo.

[Adam]

People who fall asleep when sitting up do often fall sideways depending on various other considerations.

Rigour mortis does not usually begin to set in until 2 to 6 hours after death. The first signs are the tightening of head and neck muscles before spreading to other muscles of the body, often not reaching its peak until 4 to 6 hours later. 

Sheila appears to have been a very slight build probably with a low muscle mass and therefore may not have been as affected by rigour mortis as someone with a high muscle mass.

Your arguments are flawed imo.

You're arguments are flawed and without sources again.

Bamber shot Sheila around 2pm. Which is 2 - 6 hours before the police entered WHF. So rigor mortis had set in.

People fall asleep on trains, in cars on chairs, but I have yet to see someone fall sideways. Even when in cars,  trains and planes which are moving vehicles.

What has Sheila being small got to do with anything ?

If you don't believe Bamber pulled Sheila's legs at least two feet, please say why the police would do this in the short period before the crime scene photographer arrived.

[maggie]

You're arguments are flawed and without sources again.

Bamber shot Sheila around 2pm. Which is 2 - 6 hours before the police entered WHF. So rigor mortis had set in.

People fall asleep on trains, in cars on chairs, but I have yet to see someone fall sideways. Even when in cars,  trains and planes which are moving vehicles.

What has Sheila being small got to do with anything ?

If you don't believe Bamber pulled Sheila's legs at least two feet, please say why the police would do this in the short period before the crime scene photographer arrived.

Adam seems you don't read posts properly, I did not say rigor mortis had not set in just reminding you how long it takes and that someone of Sheila's build may never have been totally stiff during rigor mortis because I would guess she had a poor muscle base due to her genetics and her diet.  She was incredibly light at 7st ....  being almost 5'8" 

Of course people fall sideways when they are sleeping. if they are sitting absolutely bolt upright, with their back well supported and are perfectly balanced they may not but it's far more common to slip sideways.  What about the old joke of someone waking up on a train with their head on their neighbour's shoulder?  I was simply saying you cannot prove anything by your argument that people never slip sideways because we know that they often do.

The fact is that babies and children who tend to have a small muscle base do not show the same symptoms of rigor mortis as well muscled adults because in rigor mortis it is the muscles which tighten and cause the body to stiffen. 
I simply suggested that Sheila was very light and slight and was a recovering anorexic I believe, therefore she also may have had a poor muscle base which would mean her body may not have ever completely stiffened up with rigor mortis.  If you used your reasoning from this fact you may have come to the conclusion that this may explain why the police were able to move Sheila's wrist/arm many hours after some believe she died and that rigor mortis would have kicked in.

I do not know whether JB or the police pulled Sheila's legs or what the reason would be for the police do that, therefore I am afraid I can't help you there.

[Adam]

Adam seems you don't read posts properly, I did not say rigor mortis had not set in just reminding you how long it takes and that someone of Sheila's build may never have been totally stiff during rigor mortis because I would guess she had a poor muscle base due to her genetics and her diet.  She was incredibly light at 7st ....  being almost 5'8"  As muscle weighs heavy I would guess her muscles were not very developed.
Of course people fall sideways when they are sleeping. if they are sitting absolutely bolt upright, with their back well supported and are perfectly balanced they may not but it's far more common to slip sideways.  What about the old joke of someone waking up on a train with their head on their neighbour's shoulder?  I was simply saying you cannot prove anything by your argument that people never slip sideways because we know that they often do.

The fact is that babies and children who tend to have a small muscle base do not show the same symptoms of rigor mortis as most adults because in rigor mortis it is the muscles which tighten and cause the body to stiffen.  I just suggested that Sheila was very light and slight and was a recovering anorexic I believe, therefore she also may have had small muscles which would mean her body may not have ever completely stiffened up with rigor mortis.  If you used your reasoning from this fact you may have come to the conclusion that this may explain why the police were able to move Sheila's wrist/arm many hours after they and you believe she died.
I do not know whether JB or the police pulled Sheila's legs or what the reason would be for the police do that, therefore I am afraid I can't help you there.

7 stone ? Some 6 year olds weigh more.

Perhaps Bamber carried her ten yards ?

[maggie]

7 stone ? Some 6 year olds weigh more.

Perhaps Bamber carried her ten yards ?

I know!!  That is my point!!  As for Bamber carrying her, she was still only 4" shorter than JB therefore she would be difficult to carry and I believe impossible to carry without waking her but I am sure you will disagree. You seem to know a magical way of picking p a 5'8" woman and carrying her like a baby without waking her.

[Adam]

I know!!  That is my point!!  As for Bamber carrying her, she was still only 4" shorter than JB therefore she would be difficult to carry and I believe impossible to carry without waking her but I am sure you will disagree. You seem to know a magical way of picking p a 5'8" woman and carrying her like a baby without waking her.

She may have started to wake within the 10 seconds of carrying. She may not have done.

One thing is for sure, she wouldn't have a clue she was about to be shot.

[maggie]

She may have started to wake within the 10 seconds of carrying. She may not have done.

One thing is for sure, she wouldn't have a clue she was about to be shot.

Sheila was a mother of two small boys, Colin said she was an excellent mother therefore she would have opened her eyes immediately she was disturbed and been wide awake.  Mothers always sleep with one ear open.

[lookout]

O.k point taken, so when Bamber whipped the nightdress in a downward movement off a dead weight as other posters have stated, which looked cotton to me, why was there no creasing on the back of the nightdress in the back upper mid leg region of Sheila, when she was discovered and why no emphasis on this, because any CSI would catch these discrepancies.

No answer, came the firm reply,eh Zoe ?

[lebaleb]

Sheila was a mother of two small boys, Colin said she was an excellent mother therefore she would have opened her eyes immediately she was disturbed and been wide awake. Mothers always sleep with one ear open.

Not manic depressive mothers on the brink of a psychotic episode. June told PB Sheila was taking NO interest in the boys.

[David1819]

You're arguments are flawed and without sources again.

Bamber shot Sheila around 2pm. Which is 2 - 6 hours before the police entered WHF. So rigor mortis had set in.

Rigor mortis cannot have fully set in because police moved her arm and hand  plus there is not much lividity in the legs