The twins.

[Jane]

Speculation on both our parts Jane, But common sense tells me Neville was the main danger.

I concur. However, none of us knows -although Adam insists that he does- the exact sequence of events. Should Nevill have been downstairs and should Jeremy have been staying overnight, it rather shifts what we may first have believed.

[Adam]

I concur. However, none of us knows -although Adam insists that he does- the exact sequence of events. Should Nevill have been downstairs and should Jeremy have been staying overnight, it rather shifts what we may first have believed.

I don't know what happened.

If I was Bamber I would have gone straight to the main bedroom. Neville was a very big man.

Although David said Bamber shot the twins once each and then went to the main bedroom with 9 bullets.  Which I wouldn't do.

Bamber could always fire 9 bullets into Neville and June, then go and fire one bullet each into the twins. If he felt they were such a threat and needed to be negated so instantly.

[Jane]

this is one of those questions i find hard to get my head around. I cant accept that jb showed such signs ofbeing such a monster to kill two sleeping little boys.

Sadly ican see sc doing it in her deranged and physchotic state.

if jb wanted the money he was clever enough tofind another way of syphoning off some without having to murder his whole family.it was obvious he could get pretty much whatever he wanted anyway so to me he has to be a mad man to do what he is in prison for.

As I previously said, Notsure, psychopaths don't have their condition stapled to their brows. He couldn't have siphoned off enough money, in one hit, to satisfy his needs, and I believe he wanted to free himself from the farm.

[Caroline]

this is one of those questions i find hard to get my head around. I cant accept that jb showed such signs ofbeing such a monster to kill two sleeping little boys.

Sadly ican see sc doing it in her deranged and physchotic state.

if jb wanted the money he was clever enough tofind another way of syphoning off some without having to murder his whole family.it was obvious he could get pretty much whatever he wanted anyway so to me he has to be a mad man to do what he is in prison for.

No, just a psychopath without conscience.

[Adam]

Buddy has gone silent again, on his/her own thread. After my reply, 13.

This also happened a few days earlier when I asked for an explanation of how Sheila committed the massacre. Which is strange as at the time Buddy was more than happy to give explanations of alledged massacre difficulties for Bamber. 

Then yesterday created this thread claiming the twins were shot first, showing Sheila was the culprit. But has again not given an explanation of how Sheila committed the massacre, after my (second) request.

[David1819]

It is generally agreed that the twins were the first to be shot, because Nicholas was still sucking his thumb.
Why would Nicholas be the first, when the biggest threat to any murderer would be Neville
The twins would have been easy to overpower. It makes no sense to kill the kids first.
A deranged Sheila is more likely IMO.

The twins being shot first point to Sheila being responsible.

The bloodstains on Sheila's nightdress show she was sitting up when the fatal shots were fired. Combined with the trajectory of the bullets showing the gun was being held with the rifle to the neck and the stock between her legs. Entirely consistent with suicide

Of course you can argue Jeremy shot the twins first that is plausible, however you will also have to also argue that Jeremy gave Sheila the rifle and ordered her to shoot herself. That don't seem credible at all.

Then you have four elements of the case that Jeremy cannot orchestrate

1. The foster care issue.
2. Her illness was centred on her children
3. Sheila was menstruating during massacre.
4. Sheila's antipsychotic medication was reduced by half shortly before the massacre.

All this combined points to a psychotic episode creating the belief in her disturbed mind that killing her children and then herself, was the most appropriate means by which the problems could be resolved.

[Adam]

No one knows who was shot first or last. Buddy's reason yesterday that one of the twins was sucking his thumb has been dismissed.

Yes Sheila was sitting up when shot. Experts in the 2002 appeal said Sheila's legs were pulled after the second shot. Thread created. Lookout disagreed this again shows Bamber as 100% guilty. Saying it was 'my leg being pulled'.

Bamber didn't order Sheila to shoot herself. He shot her before she had a clue what was happening.

Sheila menstrating during the massacre ? That is a new reason to kill you're family.

If Sheila shot the twins first, what was Neville doing at this time ?

[lookout]

The twins being shot first point to Sheila being responsible.

The bloodstains on Sheila's nightdress show she was sitting up when the fatal shots were fired. Combined with the trajectory of the bullets showing the gun was being held with the rifle to the neck and the stock between her legs. Entirely consistent with suicide

Of course you can argue Jeremy shot the twins first that is plausible, however you will also have to also argue that Jeremy gave Sheila the rifle and ordered her to shoot herself. That don't seem credible at all.

Then you have four elements of the case that Jeremy cannot orchestrate

1. The foster care issue.
2. Her illness was centred on her children
3. Sheila was menstruating during massacre.
4. Sheila's antipsychotic medication was reduced by half shortly before the massacre.

All this combined points to a psychotic episode creating the belief in her disturbed mind that killing her children and then herself, was the most appropriate means by which the problems could be resolved.

 

I know that the rifle wasn't a particularly high-powered one,but what would have been the chances of someone unaccustomed to using it getting a certain amount of a " pull-back " on using it ?
What I mean is that if an aim was taken directly,would the rifle have dipped ? ( as in June's legs )
I'm trying to get a picture of the shootings because being closer shots to them they couldn't be missed,especially one between the eyes,yet it didn't show a contact shot,or did it ? ( perish that thought,makes me feel sick )
Then there was the  " accurate " shot between June's eyes,which I would imagine,requires a steady hand/aim. Yet with Neville and June,the shots were haphazard. It's like the" work " of two people-------------not including Jeremy.

[Jane]

 

I know that the rifle wasn't a particularly high-powered one,but what would have been the chances of someone unaccustomed to using it getting a certain amount of a " pull-back " on using it ?
What I mean is that if an aim was taken directly,would the rifle have dipped ? ( as in June's legs )
I'm trying to get a picture of the shootings because being closer shots to them they couldn't be missed,especially one between the eyes,yet it didn't show a contact shot,or did it ? ( perish that thought,makes me feel sick )
Then there was the  " accurate " shot between June's eyes,which I would imagine,requires a steady hand/aim. Yet with Neville and June,the shots were haphazard. It's like the" work " of two people-------------not including Jeremy.

I think we may assume that, whilst Nevill was moving, none of the others were -at least, not in  the same way. It may have been that the shots to June's head area were hoped to be fatal and the shot to her legs, when this proved not to be the case, were to prevent further movement. By the time the fatal shot was delivered, I imagine that it would have been impossible for June to make any movement.

[David1819]

No one knows who was shot first or last. Buddy's reason yesterday that one of the twins was sucking his thumb has been dismissed.

Yes Sheila was sitting up when shot. Experts in the 2002 appeal said Sheila's legs were pulled after the second shot. Thread created. Lookout disagreed this again shows Bamber as 100% guilty. Saying it was 'my leg being pulled'.

Bamber didn't order Sheila to shoot herself. He shot her before she had a clue what was happening.

Sheila menstrating during the massacre ? That is a new reason to kill you're family.

If Sheila shot the twins first, what was Neville doing at this time ?

Your arguments against the twins being shot first don't seem credible.

The theory of Sheila's leg being pulled was rejected and refuted via the carpet blood stains. That is why the CCRC never used this in their judgments. Jeremy's conviction rests on the silencer.

But if there was no silencer on it, then there was, for the purposes of this application, sufficient that it might be necessary to refer it to the Court of Appeal on the basis that there was a real possibility that the sister was the murderer.

How can Jeremy get Sheila to sit up and do nothing while he is trying to kill her? Makes no sense

[Adam]

Your arguments against the twins being shot first don't seem credible.

The theory of Sheila's leg being pulled was rejected and refuted via the carpet blood stains. That is why the CCRC never used this in their judgments. Jeremy's conviction rests on the silencer.

But if there was no silencer on it, then there was, for the purposes of this application, sufficient that it might be necessary to refer it to the Court of Appeal on the basis that there was a real possibility that the sister was the murderer.

How can Jeremy get Sheila to sit up and do nothing while he is trying to kill her? Makes no sense

Bamber's conviction rests on the mountain of forensic and circumstantial evidence against him. Although I don't know what the law is if he can find a massive technicality.

Please answer my question about what was Neville doing if Sheila shot the twins first. If you can't,  just say.

Have you got a source for the CCRC judgement ? You keep quoting it. I have not been able to find it. Although you're quote here is nothing to do with Bamber pulling Sheila's legs after the second shot.

He didn't get Sheila to do anything. He shot her before she had a clue what was happening. It's ten yards from her bedroom to the main bedroom. Not ten miles.

[Jane]

Your arguments against the twins being shot first don't seem credible.

The theory of Sheila's leg being pulled was rejected and refuted via the carpet blood stains. That is why the CCRC never used this in their judgments. Jeremy's conviction rests on the silencer.

But if there was no silencer on it, then there was, for the purposes of this application, sufficient that it might be necessary to refer it to the Court of Appeal on the basis that there was a real possibility that the sister was the murderer.

How can Jeremy get Sheila to sit up and do nothing while he is trying to kill her? Makes no sense

Your quote is nothing more than flaky and very ambiguous legalese ie "IF there was...." "MIGHT be necessary........."

[buddy]

I think Neville did wake, and went towards the twins room and was shot in the arm, before running
downstairs. I think someone was waiting for him.

[Adam]

I think Neville did wake, and went towards the twins room and was shot in the arm, before running
downstairs. I think someone was waiting for him.

Neville woke and was shot in the twins room. The evidence does not show this.

Who was waiting for him downstairs ?

If Neville woke, got shot in the twins room, and was then instantly confronted downstairs, when did he phone Bamber and the police ?

[Caroline]

Your arguments against the twins being shot first don't seem credible.

The theory of Sheila's leg being pulled was rejected and refuted via the carpet blood stains. That is why the CCRC never used this in their judgments. Jeremy's conviction rests on the silencer.

But if there was no silencer on it, then there was, for the purposes of this application, sufficient that it might be necessary to refer it to the Court of Appeal on the basis that there was a real possibility that the sister was the murderer.

How can Jeremy get Sheila to sit up and do nothing while he is trying to kill her? Makes no sense

Depends on your scenario.