Bathroom window: Quick Q & A's and a conclusion.

[lookout]

No arguments from me there, Lookout.

It's a recognised and familiar pathway,Jane.

[Steve_uk]

Everyone failed Sheila. Even in this day and age people are still being failed. I think it's abysmal that with the so-called advancement in the detection of mental health among some people that so many teenagers are falling through the net and committing suicide. These are shocking statistics. The public are still ignorant of its existence in the young. Teachers should be trained to spot any signs,as the twins teacher did and promptly reported that they'd appeared neglected/tired/untidy.
If these things can be spotted at school where a child/youth spends most of its time,then it can be nipped in the bud before it goes on to worse things.
Sheila being expelled from school twice should have been a starter as to why then at least one problem could have been resolved,as a depressed child/teen will either bunk school or dislike going and that reason should have been rectified.
Her life remained unsettled from then onwards since puberty. If only there'd been some understanding and talking through her problems.

There's still an awful lot that we don't know about mental illness. I've just been reading about Martin Bryant, who committed the Port Arthur massacre twenty years ago. Both parents attempted suicide in their lives, his father succeeding. Once his father expired he was on a downward trajectory into tragedy, and studying the case one wonders what could have been done in retrospect apart from confining him in familiar surroundings with people who would have had to demonstrate the patience of a saint day in day out. How he managed to secure access to a gun god only knows.

Are there parallels with Sheila(I think she left Moira House in Eastbourne after she had arrived mid-term and failed to settle-maybe she was cheeking teachers to gain the attention of her peers..the second school she attended at Hethersett, Norfolk all the girls of her year were expelled as a group on the last day when they burnt their school uniform)? When I look at Martin now there must be some disorder which has still not been diagnosed as it looks as if he's undergoing agony on a daily basis, and I would really like to tell the authorities at Risdon Prison, Tasmania they are doing a poor job, even though many will argue he is receiving his just deserts.

[David1819]

There are no examples of a woman killing her children, mother, father and herself in one go.

Liselotte Leifeld was a German who killed her mother, her husband, and their four children in Ahlen, West Germany on September 23, 1969, before committing suicide. All of them were shot in the head, or chest with a 6.35-caliber pistol

Emma Cooper was an American who killed six members of her family and wounded a seventh in Cadillac, Michigan, United States on June 12, 1908, before committing suicide

Kathryn Dempsey Schoch was an American who killed six of her relatives and wounded a seventh in Dunkirk, New York and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States on December 22 and December 23, 1934, before committing suicide

Elizabeth R. Gregor was an American who killed her husband and five children in Prospect, Pennsylvania, United States on June 17, 1963, before committing suicide

Julia A. Johnson Markham was an American who killed her seven children at a farm seven miles southwest of in Cambridge, Illinois, United States on September 30, 1905, before committing suicide.

Mary Sartin was an American who killed her husband and five children in Bay View, Ohio, United States on August 13, 1965, before committing suicide

[David1819]

Sheila being expelled from school twice should have been a starter as to why then at least one problem could have been resolved,as a depressed child/teen will either bunk school or dislike going and that reason should have been rectified.
Her life remained unsettled from then onwards since puberty. If only there'd been some understanding and talking through her problems.

Does anyone know what schools she attended? Was she not sent to boarding school also?

[Jane]

Does anyone know what schools she attended? Was she not sent to boarding school also?

Eastbourne in  Sussex and Hethersett in Norfolk. Both Boarding schools.

[lookout]

There's still an awful lot that we don't know about mental illness. I've just been reading about Martin Bryant, who committed the Port Arthur massacre twenty years ago. Both parents attempted suicide in their lives, his father succeeding. Once his father expired he was on a downward trajectory into tragedy, and studying the case one wonders what could have been done in retrospect apart from confining him in familiar surroundings with people who would have had to demonstrate the patience of a saint day in day out. How he managed to secure access to a gun god only knows.

Are there parallels with Sheila(I think she left Moira House in Eastbourne after she had arrived mid-term and failed to settle-maybe she was cheeking teachers to gain the attention of her peers..the second school she attended at Hathersett, Norfolk all the girls of her year were expelled as a group on the last day when they burnt their school uniform)? When I look at Martin now there must be some disorder which has still not been diagnosed as it looks as if he's undergoing agony on a daily basis, and I would really like to tell the authorities at Risdon Prison, Tasmania they are doing a poor job, even though many will argue he is receiving his just deserts.

The problem does appear to stem from teenage years/puberty and how individuals cope with the changes that go on. Of course the main support starts at home,or it should do for the young adults to be able to talk to their parents about their feelings. No judging is necessary,or making comparisons to other siblings as ALL children are individuals and should be treated as such.
It's very upsetting when we hear of a teenage suicide and although we feel a lot could have been avoided,there are still those poor souls just like Sheila who try and muddle through on their own because their plight falls on deaf ears and I've often wondered about what Sheila had told the psychiatrist about " what her children could do to her " as more of a cry for help than what she was actually thinking.
It was probably a case of saying anything to draw the attention of those who looked after her so that she could properly explain what was going on inside her. Not enough time was given to Sheila on a one to one basis. Group discussions would have been useless in her case. 
Sheila couldn't settle in any one job,being another symptom of depression,and she'd constantly needed reassurance from everyone she'd met ( insecurity )

We've yet to find out if Sheila had ever attempted suicide,as apparently she'd mentioned suicide to Dr. Ferguson. It's possible that diaries contain/ed such information and if so,it's a bit dishonest not to mention anything if they're still available. At least it would give us a better picture about the state of her mind.

[Steve_uk]

The problem does appear to stem from teenage years/puberty and how individuals cope with the changes that go on. Of course the main support starts at home,or it should do for the young adults to be able to talk to their parents about their feelings. No judging is necessary,or making comparisons to other siblings as ALL children are individuals and should be treated as such.
It's very upsetting when we hear of a teenage suicide and although we feel a lot could have been avoided,there are still those poor souls just like Sheila who try and muddle through on their own because their plight falls on deaf ears and I've often wondered about what Sheila had told the psychiatrist about " what her children could do to her " as more of a cry for help than what she was actually thinking.
It was probably a case of saying anything to draw the attention of those who looked after her so that she could properly explain what was going on inside her. Not enough time was given to Sheila on a one to one basis. Group discussions would have been useless in her case. 
Sheila couldn't settle in any one job,being another symptom of depression,and she'd constantly needed reassurance from everyone she'd met ( insecurity )

We've yet to find out if Sheila had ever attempted suicide,as apparently she'd mentioned suicide to Dr. Ferguson. It's possible that diaries contain/ed such information and if so,it's a bit dishonest not to mention anything if they're still available. At least it would give us a better picture about the state of her mind.

Yes I agree and I always wondered about her birth father, of whom we know nothing. It's possible in theory though unlikely that Nevill turned upon her daughter that final evening for neglecting her children and like Martin Bryant the last buttress against all life's ills was withdrawn.

[Steve_uk]

When I compare the following case to Sheila I could weep about the progress we have made in society after thirty years.  http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/british-mum-arrested-on-benidorm-holiday-for-abandoning-nine-year-old-twins-while-out-drinking-after-child-found-walking-streets/ar-BBv1qOf?li=AA59G2&ocid=spartanntp

[lookout]

Yes I agree and I always wondered about her birth father, of whom we know nothing. It's possible in theory though unlikely that Nevill turned upon her daughter that final evening for neglecting her children and like Martin Bryant the last buttress against all life's ills was withdrawn.

Yes,Sheila must have wondered for long enough who her birth father was and none of us will ever know her thoughts if Neville had ever said that his wife must come first. We can only imagine.
From what I can gather from my personal thoughts/views only,is that because June had been seeing her own GP up until the tragedy,was that because Neville had previously been very supportive of Sheila having to contend with her " night-calls " regularly as she phoned him for someone to talk to during her darkest hours ( 2-3am ) while alone in her Maida Vale apartment. Then-------------on the night of the tragedy,the tables turned and Neville gave support to his wife who they'd probably both decided that Sheila would have to take a back seat for a change. No doubt that this alone would have caused friction as Sheila wouldn't have been happy if her father had been shouting the odds and putting his foot down.
Two pretty sick women would have been quite a task for Neville being in the middle of it.

I firmly say that arguments got out of hand between the three adults which ended in disaster.

[Steve_uk]

Yes,Sheila must have wondered for long enough who her birth father was and none of us will ever know her thoughts if Neville had ever said that his wife must come first. We can only imagine.
From what I can gather from my personal thoughts/views only,is that because June had been seeing her own GP up until the tragedy,was that because Neville had previously been very supportive of Sheila having to contend with her " night-calls " regularly as she phoned him for someone to talk to during her darkest hours ( 2-3am ) while alone in her Maida Vale apartment. Then-------------on the night of the tragedy,the tables turned and Neville gave support to his wife who they'd probably both decided that Sheila would have to take a back seat for a change. No doubt that this alone would have caused friction as Sheila wouldn't have been happy if her father had been shouting the odds and putting his foot down.
Two pretty sick women would have been quite a task for Neville being in the middle of it.

I firmly say that arguments got out of hand between the three adults which ended in disaster.

It's a possible scenario lookout but given that Nevill had been supportive in the past it would be out of character to turn on his daughter that evening. Why not continue with an arrangement of babysitters from the village or send Sheila on holiday to convalesce as June mentioned to Pamela during the telephone call? Surely June would have understood her daughter's illness having suffered from religiosity herself? It all smacks of Jeremy wanting there to be some sort of altercation that evening when he introduced the idea of her not receiving private treatment on any further hospital stay, and given the bank balances of the parents upon death I wouldn't have thought financial considerations were forefront in their minds.

[lookout]

When I compare the following case to Sheila I could weep about the progress we have made in society after thirty years.  http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/british-mum-arrested-on-benidorm-holiday-for-abandoning-nine-year-old-twins-while-out-drinking-after-child-found-walking-streets/ar-BBv1qOf?li=AA59G2&ocid=spartanntp

It is truly heartbreaking Steve. I fail to understand the types of mothers who abandon their children like that. Something similar happened not long after Madeleine McCann's disappearance and when the mother returned to the hotel,she was so drunk that she wasn't capable of looking after the infants and the authorities in Spain at the time, took them as well.
How utterly cruel to leave children in a strange country too. These women have a nerve calling themselves mothers. It leaves me horrified.
Yet they'd be the first to blame all and sundry if anything had happened to the children.

[Adam]

Liselotte Leifeld was a German who killed her mother, her husband, and their four children in Ahlen, West Germany on September 23, 1969, before committing suicide. All of them were shot in the head, or chest with a 6.35-caliber pistol

Emma Cooper was an American who killed six members of her family and wounded a seventh in Cadillac, Michigan, United States on June 12, 1908, before committing suicide

Kathryn Dempsey Schoch was an American who killed six of her relatives and wounded a seventh in Dunkirk, New York and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States on December 22 and December 23, 1934, before committing suicide

Elizabeth R. Gregor was an American who killed her husband and five children in Prospect, Pennsylvania, United States on June 17, 1963, before committing suicide

Julia A. Johnson Markham was an American who killed her seven children at a farm seven miles southwest of in Cambridge, Illinois, United States on September 30, 1905, before committing suicide.

Mary Sartin was an American who killed her husband and five children in Bay View, Ohio, United States on August 13, 1965, before committing suicide

Thank you David. You provided cases from over 50 or 100 years ago. In America and Germany.

None are examples of a woman killing her - mother, father, Children and herself. Most women killing their husband.

Just like Lookout and Mike, you are tenacious.

[David1819]

Thank you David. You provided cases from over 50 or 100 years ago. In America and Germany.

None are examples of a woman killing her - mother, father, Children and herself. Most women killing their husband.

Just like Lookout and Mike, you are tenacious.

Talk about moving the goal posts. Liselotte Leifeld is an example down to a tee except she killed her husband not her father. I'm guessing her father was not present, thus she didn't and could not kill him also

Liselotte Leifeld killed her mother, her husband, and their four children in Ahlen, West Germany on September 23, 1969, before committing suicide. All of them were shot in the head, or chest with a 6.35-caliber pistol.

[Adam]

Talk about moving the goal posts. Liselotte Leifeld is an example down to a tee except she killed her husband not her father. I'm guessing her father was not present, thus she didn't and could not kill him also

Liselotte Leifeld killed her mother, her husband, and their four children in Ahlen, West Germany on September 23, 1969, before committing suicide. All of them were shot in the head, or chest with a 6.35-caliber pistol.

To be fair you've given six examples of cases in other countries from between 47 to 111 years ago, which seem similar. Although I've not read up on them.

[sami]

Depressives CAN and DO lash out at their loved ones. This is why " outsiders " can't believe that the likes of Sheila could have resorted to murder.
 It's unusual for those with severe depression to show it other than to those who are nearer to them.
Untreated depression is dangerous !!

sheila never killed anyone .the only lashing out she did was to cc throwing a vase i believe .as iam sure some women have done the same with other objects.ie.dishes .cups.glasses