EU Referendum

[Steve_uk]

Any particular part of Spain, Steve ?

Well after living in Manchester I don't want too much rain, so probably Andalucia.

[lookout]

Well after living in Manchester I don't want too much rain, so probably Andalucia.

My friend and myself once enjoyed a month is Southern Spain, visiting each province in the region. Fabulous and I couldn't blame anyone for leaving our dreary weather behind.

[Roch]

Perhaps the lib dems can see that leaving the EU is suicide - previously I would never have voted for them but now there is no other option for me.

Presumably then, you are not one of those who claimed they would abide by the result? Good luck if you think the Lib Dem’s are trustworthy.

[Caroline]

Presumably then, you are not one of those who claimed they would abide by the result? Good luck if you think the Lib Dem’s are trustworthy.

Abide by it? What choice do I have? The EU are not going to change their mind and BJ has made it even harder for them to do so with all his BS. My worries are concerned with Northern Ireland and the fact that there is no plan in place for no deal.

I hope that when (if) we leave it turns out to be a positive outcome, but I just can't see it.

When did I say I thought the LD's are trustworthy? That's the point - NONE OF THEN ARE!

[Roch]

Abide by it? What choice do I have? The EU are not going to change their mind and BJ has made it even harder for them to do so with all his BS. My worries are concerned with Northern Ireland and the fact that there is no plan in place for no deal.

I hope that when (if) we leave it turns out to be a positive outcome, but I just can't see it.

When did I say I thought the LD's are trustworthy? That's the point - NONE OF THEN ARE!

A vote for Lib Dems is not an attempt to abide by the democratic result - it's an attempt to undermine it.  This is a party that was all but dead: it had been abandoned by the electorate as a result of the Clegg / Cameron era.  What they have done is very cynical.  They spotted an opportunity i.e. 'Remain' and then tried to claim ownership of that brand, to resurrect their own political livelihood.

You're levelling accusations that should be levelled at the EU.  The EU saw that the democratic victory for Leave was narrow, quickly realising that it could conspire with elements of 'Remain' in order to undermine the result, i.e. thwart it from being properly actioned.  This in no way represents 'abiding by' or 'respecting' the result of the referendum. 

The blame for a 'no deal' exit should be placed squarely at the door of the co-conspirators within the EU and 'Remain'.  The reason for this is that had both those pro-EU factions truly abided by the result (as repeatedly but disingenuously claimed) we could have exited already, with some kind of deal that was deemed to represent 'Brexit' among the majority of people.

'Northern Ireland' and the Irish border is a mechanism, deliberately deployed by the EU, in order to create a problematic dilemma for the UK's exit from the EU.

[Caroline]

A vote for Lib Dems is not an attempt to abide by the democratic result - it's an attempt to undermine it.  This is a party that was all but dead: it had been abandoned by the electorate as a result of the Clegg / Cameron era.  What they have done is very cynical.  They spotted an opportunity i.e. 'Remain' and then tried to claim ownership of that brand, to resurrect their own political livelihood.

You're levelling accusations that should be levelled at the EU.  The EU saw that the democratic victory for Leave was narrow, quickly realising that it could conspire with elements of 'Remain' in order to undermine the result, i.e. thwart it from being properly actioned.  This in no way represents 'abiding by' or 'respecting' the result of the referendum. 

The blame for a 'no deal' exit should be placed squarely at the door of the co-conspirators within the EU and 'Remain'.  The reason for this is that had both those pro-EU factions truly abided by the result (as repeatedly but disingenuously claimed) we could have exited already, with some kind of deal that was deemed to represent 'Brexit' among the majority of people.

'Northern Ireland' and the Irish border is a mechanism, deliberately deployed by the EU, in order to create a problematic dilemma for the UK's exit from the EU.

How is you telling me how I should vote 'democratic'?

You seem to be saying that the EU should have just agreed to any and all demands - that was never going to happen and anyone who thought it would, is simply naive. The Irish Border is a real issue and a problematic result of things having not been properly thought through from the start!

[lookout]

The whole problem is that those who voted Brexit hadn't got a clue, initially, what they were voting for or what it entailed. A sheer lack of information was the biggest problem and no explanation of the truth.

I don't trust any politician right now to get this country out of the turmoil it's in presently.
 Boris is bluffing and flustering his way through what appears to him to be a circus show while Trump is looking at the UK as another State to add to his list of conquests under his control.

God help us !

[Caroline]

The whole problem is that those who voted Brexit hadn't got a clue, initially, what they were voting for or what it entailed. A sheer lack of information was the biggest problem and no explanation of the truth.

I don't trust any politician right now to get this country out of the turmoil it's in presently.
 Boris is bluffing and flustering his way through what appears to him to be a circus show while Trump is looking at the UK as another State to add to his list of conquests under his control.

God help us !

Once again Lookout, I totally agree with you. When asked this question leavers tend to say that they did know what they were voting for, they were voting for 'sovereignty' - which is a theoretical concept and not a plan - it's an ideal. All very well wanting to 'rule the waves' again but without a plan, we're more likely to 'sink without trace'! 

[maggie]

The whole problem is that those who voted Brexit hadn't got a clue, initially, what they were voting for or what it entailed. A sheer lack of information was the biggest problem and no explanation of the truth.

I don't trust any politician right now to get this country out of the turmoil it's in presently.
 Boris is bluffing and flustering his way through what appears to him to be a circus show while Trump is looking at the UK as another State to add to his list of conquests under his control.

God help us !

I agree with you Lookout, the vast majority had no idea at all the just ‘wanted their country back’ whatever that meant, think it was at the least racist.  The Irish border is the goal street, we have to respect he Good Friday Agreement, if that is lost we are in real trouble.

[Jane]

The whole problem is that those who voted Brexit hadn't got a clue, initially, what they were voting for or what it entailed. A sheer lack of information was the biggest problem and no explanation of the truth.

I don't trust any politician right now to get this country out of the turmoil it's in presently.
 Boris is bluffing and flustering his way through what appears to him to be a circus show while Trump is looking at the UK as another State to add to his list of conquests under his control.

God help us !

Once again Lookout, I totally agree with you. When asked this question leavers tend to say that they did know what they were voting for, they were voting for 'sovereignty' - which is a theoretical concept and not a plan - it's an ideal. All very well wanting to 'rule the waves' again but without a plan, we're more likely to 'sink without trace'! 

I fully concur. I'm happier being part of this particular 'gang' than being an outsider.  I don't believe there to be Utopia awaiting us when we leave. I don't believe any of our existing laws will change and I doubt that new ones will be made which will render happy those who now aren't. Our current state has arisen because the result of the vote was so close. I don't think any of us had any clear view of what would happen, which is hardly surprising given that the government had no definite plans -or none they were sharing!!!

I absolutely don't believe that because 'we stood alone during the war and won it single handed', we can do so now  -I wasn't here during the war, but my understanding is that if you weren't as country dweller, you may have starved because goods we relied on from other countries couldn't get here. Since then, we've given away our industries and farmers are selling off land or diversifying because, for various reasons, they're no longer growing the crops they once were. I do believe "WE" stood shoulder to shoulder.............then! but we're a very different country now and I suspect that there are those here who would like nothing more than to see this country dissolve into total anarchy. It would suit their agenda.

I like how BJ seems to be waving the flag, but he is a politician, and he is renown for his bluster.............I fear we flounder.

[Steve_uk]

I'm saddened by the negativity. As Caroline said in an earlier post it's not really about immigration or hatred of foreigners: I just want to elect directly the people who govern me. There's no such thing as exiting with No Deal anyway: just leaving on World Trade Organization terms.

[Caroline]

I fully concur. I'm happier being part of this particular 'gang' than being an outsider.  I don't believe there to be Utopia awaiting us when we leave. I don't believe any of our existing laws will change and I doubt that new ones will be made which will render happy those who now aren't. Our current state has arisen because the result of the vote was so close. I don't think any of us had any clear view of what would happen, which is hardly surprising given that the government had no definite plans -or none they were sharing!!!

I absolutely don't believe that because 'we stood alone during the war and won it single handed', we can do so now  -I wasn't here during the war, but my understanding is that if you weren't as country dweller, you may have starved because goods we relied on from other countries couldn't get here. Since then, we've given away our industries and farmers are selling off land or diversifying because, for various reasons, they're no longer growing the crops they once were. I do believe "WE" stood shoulder to shoulder.............then! but we're a very different country now and I suspect that there are those here who would like nothing more than to see this country dissolve into total anarchy. It would suit their agenda.

I like how BJ seems to be waving the flag, but he is a politician, and he is renown for his bluster.............I fear we flounder.

Agreed Jane, no doubt when new laws are written (if they ever are), they won't be the ones that Brexiteers wanted but that will be the fault of the remainers 

[Caroline]

I'm saddened by the negativity. As Caroline said in an earlier post it's not really about immigration or hatred of foreigners: I just want to elect directly the people who govern me. There's no such thing as exiting with No Deal anyway: just leaving on World Trade Organization terms.

But for the most part, you are governed by those directly elected here. This is an interesting article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105.

I saw someone argue that state pension here were less than in most EU countries as an argument to leave, but state pension here, has nothing to do with the EU. If you're going to argue points for leaving, then at least people should get their facts right.

[Steve_uk]

But for the most part, you are governed by those directly elected here. This is an interesting article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105.

I saw someone argue that state pension here were less than in most EU countries as an argument to leave, but state pension here, has nothing to do with the EU. If you're going to argue points for leaving, then at least people should get their facts right.

The problem is that the European Union is moving on: to a single army, a single currency, a single diplomatic service. I'm afraid I'm old-fashioned enough to want the Westminster parliament 100% sovereign. The MPs can earn their money and the European Commission can butt out.

[Roch]

The whole problem is that those who voted Brexit hadn't got a clue, initially, what they were voting for or what it entailed.

I know tonnes of Leave voters. They knew perfectly well what they were voting for.  Severance from EU membership and institutions. It is some of the remain voters who are in complete shock about what this entails. Not the leave voters. I assure you, they are at ease! All knew there would disruption and some potential pain initially.