View Through Kitchen Window.

[guest2181]

Okay, those who have been around a while may remember an old theory about Neville's body being on a chair behind the kitchen door and was therefore not visible from the kitchen window when Collins looked in just before the raid team entered.

I don't fully remember, but I think the theory was something to do with the 'one dead male/one dead female' line in the logs, with the reasoning being that if Neville couldn't be seen from the window then he couldn't have been mistaken as a female which must mean that a female WAS actually present in the kitchen when the raid team entered. It was along those lines anyway.

I have no desire to start arguing about the theory (I've done that enough in the past), I think it's a load of nonsense but if others see it another way then that's up to them.

Anyway, I had a bit of time on my hands so I've put together a quick 'child like' model of the views in to the kitchen. It's based on the police produced floor plans which I can confirm are accurate. I've drawn my plan directly over the police produced plans so you can see how they relate.

These first two plans show a blue field of vision and a green field of vision. The blue is set back a little where as the green is looking right up against the glass.

[guest2181]

This plan now shows the position RNB as per the theory of him being originally found behind the door.

The blue and green fields of vision are also shown.

[guest2181]

I have then set a camera up at 1.7m high and taken a 3D view of the blue field of vision and then the green field of vision.
(Obviously the green shows more of the red chair).

The chair behind the door is shown in red, with the theoretical position of RNB shown as a blue sphere.

The actual official position that RNB was found in is shown as a golden sphere.

[guest2181]

To further get your bearings, I've then taken a bunch of 3D views with both blue and green fields of vision and blue and gold spheres as per above post.

[guest2181]

I think this conclusively shows that even had RNB been located behind the kitchen door, he would/could still be seen from the window.

[guest2181]

This is the original plan which I've based the above on.

[Neil]

Wow!  Great work.

[buddy]

Personally I have always thought that the police were mistaken into thinking that a female was in the kitchen, because of Nevilles long hair.
I would also love the photo of Sheila on the bed that Mike claims to have seen.

[guest2181]

Personally I have always thought that the police were mistaken into thinking that a female was in the kitchen, because of Nevilles long hair.
I would also love the photo of Sheila on the bed that Mike claims to have seen.

Yes, that is my belief also.

[ngb1066]

That is a very helpful piece of work Hartley.  It will assist members, of all viewpoints on the case as a whole, in assessing parts of the prosecution evidence.

Thank you for posting this.

[Jane]

Brilliant piece of work, Harters. Let's hope it puts an end to all those unsubstantiated theories of what could be seen by whom.

[Adam]

I touched on Neville's position in my recent 'Sheila's timeline' thread, that Neville was in a very unusual position.

However he was in the perfect position for the killer to pull up his pyjama top and burn his back.

Was Sheila strong enough to move Neville into the required position to do this ? In a word, 'no'.

[Adam]

From the 2002 appeal.

33. In the kitchen the police found Nevill Bamber's body slumped forward over an overturned chair next to the hearth, so that his head was just above a coal scuttle. The police evidence was that there were other chairs and stools upturned and broken crockery, sugar and what appeared to be spots of blood on the floor. A ceiling light lampshade had also been broken. It will be necessary to address further these matter later but on the evidence available at trial, it appeared as though a violent struggle had taken place. On one of the surfaces there was a telephone with the receiver off the cradle. A quantity of .22 shells was beside it.

[maggie]

Adam, I have removed your post to Jane on this thread because it was abusive and also some other posts which are disrespectful. 
There is a difference between discussing the position RNB was reported to be found in and writing such an insensitive post on the way he was found.  I suggest that you should take more care when posting on such sensitive subjects as the death of 3 adults and two children.

[Adam]

I asked you to provide the "source" that was worded exactly as you posted it.

I said his head was in a coal scuttle.

Buddy said the police put Neville's head there. But has not provided a source for this.

As it happens, my 'primary source' says his head was 'just above' the coal scuttle.

Either way, his face was not visible, which was the main point being made.  So my assertion that the police would find it harder to determine whether Neville was a man or woman, is correct.