Has the Jeremy Bamber case come to the end of the road?

[Adam]

So I make it about 15 minutes, it seems like plenty of time. 

Excellent. A constructive response. Other posters just tried to undermine post 152.

It seems to you believe Sheila was super fast and clinical in her actions. Almost execution like.

You've removed the shower section. Which was optional and takes off ten minutes. However there is then no explanation why Sheila was completely mark free.

You must allow time for Sheila checking whether everyone was dead. Neville's back was burnt three times. The OS saying it was done by the rifle. June was also shot again when on the floor. Time estimate reinstated.

The bible was open a specific page. Which apparently is read before suicides. Bit weird that Sheila would get it, open it and then not read it. The only other explanation is that it was a plant. Time estimate reinstated.

The suicide note is optional. Supporters and the OS will have to retract on the suicide note claim to attempt to fit the 22/38 minutes Sheila had.

Taking the silencer off and putting it away. Then returning upstairs to pluck up the courage to shoot herself. Twice. Will take more than two minutes. Time estimate reinstated.

Neville's fight was after he returned upstairs from phoning Bamber (3.10) or the police (3.26). To then get shot 4 times, run downstairs, put up a massive fight, before being shot again will take 15 minutes. His first upstairs shots may have been minutes after his phone call. Time estimate reinstated.

[Adam]

In my view Hartley has taken off 20 minutes from the time it took Sheila to do everything.

By removing the shower and suicide note. These are both things supporters would be reluctant to retract on.

This still puts Sheila miles away from being able to do everything in her 22/38 minute time scale.

[guest2181]

Excellent. A constructive response.

It seems Sheila was super fast and clinical in her actions. Almost execution like.

You've removed the shower section. Which was optional and takes off ten minutes. However there is then no explanation why Sheila was completely mark free.

You must allow time for Sheila checking whether everyone was dead. Neville's back was burnt three times. The OS saying it was done by the rifle. June was also shot again when on the floor. Time estimate reinstated.

The bible was open a specific page. Which apparently is read before suicides. Bit weird that Sheila would get it and not read it. Time estimate reinstated.

The suicide note is optional. Supporters and the OS will have to retract on this to fit the 22/38 minutes Sheila had.

Taking the silencer off and putting it away. Then returning upstairs to pluck up the courage to shoot herself. Twice. Will take more than two minutes.

It's obviously all make believe anyway, so I don't think I can start adding in Sheila having a shower or start explaining why think couldn't happen just to add time on.

Two minutes is a long time, I could certainly return the silencer in that time, but okay let's double it and say four minutes. As for Sheila deliberating about shooting herself, I can't really give a time, in my scenario which is going for the minimum time, she didn't hesitate. She may have taken time, but as I say I'm going for a minimum.

I'm not convinced that the bible was at a particular page, I think that's a bit of a myth. Obviously I think it was planted by Jeremy but in our story I'm still going for a minimum time so I'm going to say it was already on the floor from falling off the bed or side table earlier on. So I'm still not adding anything for this.

With the body checking, I'm not sure about the burn marks, I think the recent defence claim of it being burns from a heated rifle without moderator attached was a load of tosh and an attempt to manipulate the case (just my opinion). Sticking with my bias for a minimum time, I'm going to say the burns were caused at another time and so so am still not going to allow time for it.

So that takes me to 17 minutes, with a spare 5 minutes to shore up any low estimates.

[Adam]

It's obviously all make believe anyway, so I don't think I can start adding in Sheila having a shower or start explaining why think couldn't happen just to add time on.

Two minutes is a long time, I could certainly return the silencer in that time, but okay let's double it and say four minutes. As for Sheila deliberating about shooting herself, I can't really give a time, in my scenario which is going for the minimum time, she didn't hesitate. She may have taken time, but as I say I'm going for a minimum.

I'm not convinced that the bible was at a particular page, I think that's a bit of a myth. Obviously I think it was planted by Jeremy but in our story I'm still going for a minimum time so I'm going to say it was already on the floor from falling off the bed or side table earlier on. So I'm still not adding anything for this.

With the body checking, I'm not sure about the burn marks, I think the recent defence claim of it being burns from a heated rifle without moderator attached was a load of tosh and an attempt to manipulate the case (just my opinion). Sticking with my bias for a minimum time, I'm going to say the burns were caused at another time and so so am still not going to allow time for it.

So that takes me to 17 minutes, with a spare 5 minutes to shore up any low estimates.

The bible was at a certain page which relates to suicides. The 2002 court of appeal states this. Supporters will have to agree with you that the bible somehow fell on the floor at this page, landing on Sheila's blood. This will take off ten minutes. But supporters will never suggest this happened.

The OS and Bamber will have to retract on Neville's burn marks, to take off another ten minutes. Again this will never happen.

[Adam]

I am being generous in saying Sheila started shooting within a minute of Neville's call to Bamber or the police. Neville going upstairs and being shot straight away. However it could have been 5 minutes afterwards, or 10, or....

[guest2181]

The bible was at a certain page which relates to suicides. The 2002 court of appeal states this. Supporters will have to agree with you that the bible somehow fell on the floor at this page, landing on Sheila's blood. This will take off ten minutes. But supporters will never do this.

The OS and Bamber will have to retract on Neville's burn marks, to take off another ten minutes. Again this will never happen.

I'm not acting as a supporter though, so I have no bias toward any retraction of one thing or another.
In my scenario, the bible simply fell, whatever page it was on was simply coincidental, you could probably open it on any page and attach meaning if you were of the mind to do so.

For arguments sake, in our made up story, I think my time estimate is plausible.

[Adam]

I'm not acting as a supporter though, so I have no bias toward any retraction of one thing or another.
In my scenario, the bible simply fell, whatever page it was on was simply coincidental, you could probably open it on any page and attach meaning if you were of the mind to do so.

For arguments sake, in our made up story, I think my time estimate is plausible.

It's great that I got a constructive response.

Hopefully supporters will also answer.

They will have to make huge retractions on several points to attempt to fit just one time scale - 38 minutes. The retractions will highlight Bamber's guilt. They will also have to admit Neville did not call the police.

Or agree that Sheila did all of these things, which again highlights guilt as she only had a 22/38 minute window. To do everything takes 75 minutes in my estimation.

[guest2181]

It's great that I got a constructive response.

Hopefully supporters will also answer.

They will have to make huge retractions on several points to fit either time scale. Which will highlight Bamber's guilt.

Or agree that Sheila did all of these things, which again highlights guilt as she only had a 22/38 minute window. To do everything takes 75 minutes in my estimation.

I understand your intention and what you are trying to get across.

I think in our made up story, there is sufficient time for Sheila to carry out the actions, I have another 5-7 minutes to play with as well.

You have in this instance attempted to use time to indicate the guilt of Jeremy. Even speaking as a person who already believes Jeremy to be guilty, I don't believe you have been successful on this occasion.

[Adam]

Well fitting everything into the time scale supporters have to say (with gritted teeth) -

Neville did not call the police. This at least gives them 38 minutes to play with.

Sheila did not shower.

Sheila did not burn Neville's back or check for signs of life.

Sheila did not look for and read the bible. It just fell there !

The massacre started within a minute of Neville's call to Bamber.

Sheila did not write a suicide note.

Sheila was quick in loading, chambering, taking off the silencer and shooting.

Sheila had no hesitation in shooting herself.

These take off 40 minutes, which makes it 35 minutes. So within the 38 minute time scale by 3 minutes. But Sheila was mightily efficient for a crazy woman.

These retractions will never be made by the supporters. They are in a pickle as it shows Bamber is guilty as Sheila didn't have enough time to do everything.

[guest2181]

Well fitting everything in supporters have to say (with gritted teeth) -

Neville did not call the police. This at least gives them 38 minutes to play with.

Sheila did not shower.

Sheila did not burn Neville's back or check for signs of life.

Sheila did not look for and read the bible. It just fell there !

The massacre started within a minute of Neville's call to Bamber.

Sheila did not write a suicide note.

Sheila was quick in loading, chambering, taking off the silencer and shooting.

Sheila had no hesitation in shooting herself.

Yes, although we don't have to omit all of those, we have another 5-7 minutes, so let's allow a couple of minutes for the bible and a couple of minutes hesitation.

I'll also allow a cursory glance to check for life whilst moving around, I'll add a minute.

The shower and suicide note are a bit daft anyway, so that leaves us with:


Sheila did not burn Neville's back.

The massacre started within a minute of Neville's call to Bamber.

[Adam]

As well as the massacre having to start within a minute of Neville's call to Bamber, we also have to consider was Sheila in a hurry after everyone had died ? What was the rush for her ? In fact supporters claim she was still alive when police entered WHF.

The evidence shows this was not the case, but why would Sheila rush after everyone had been killed. She was not expecting the police, but everything had been done in super fast time,  prior to their arrival. Sheila upstairs with a rifle on her.

[guest2181]

As well as the massacre having to start within a minute of Neville's call to Bamber, we also have to consider was Sheila in a hurry ? What was the rush for her ? In fact supporters claim she was still alive when police entered WHF.

The evidence shows this was not the case, but why would Sheila rush after everyone had been killed.

We'll yes of course, but we're only looking at timescales. In our story, Sheila COULD have moved at the pace suggested, or she COULD have worked ten times slower.

We obviously know that Sheila was actually murdered.

[Adam]

We'll yes of course, but we're only looking at timescales. In our story, Sheila COULD have moved at the pace suggested, or she COULD have worked ten times slower.

We obviously know that Sheila was actually murdered.

Supporters have to make nine retractions (above) and say Sheila worked in super fast time, for no apparent reason. And that the shooting started within a minute of Neville's call to Bamber.

But supporters won't make any comment as it's a no win situation. 

[guest2181]

Supporters have to make nine retractions (above) and say Sheila worked in super fast time, for no apparent reason. And that the shooting started within a minute of Neville's call to Bamber.

But supporters won't make any comment.

I've got that down to two, shooting started immediately and the burn marks were caused by something else.

I don't think I've got her working super fast either, just not going slowly. She's supposed to be in a mad psychotic rage don't forget.

I think it shows that we can't use timescales in this way to infer Jeremy's guilt.

[Jane]

Supporters have to make nine retractions (above) and say Sheila worked in super fast time, for no apparent reason. And that the shooting started within a minute of Neville's call to Bamber.

But supporters won't make any comment.

I can't imagine why you need Sheila to have "worked in super fast time." She was in an isolated farmhouse where presumably, no one was anticipating what would happen. She could have done the whole thing at her leisure. We know she wasn't always on the best of terms with June. She "could" bearing in mind that this is only a made up story- have shot June whilst Nevill was using the downstairs shower, THEN realized she'd have to shoot him, too. You can't cause Jeremy's guilt by unknown time scales.