The rifle at the upstairs window Conundrum - The Bamber Alibi, revisted...

[sami]

thanks jane i will bear that in mind.and check that photo in archives

cant find that photo jane do you know where in archives

[Jane]

cant find that photo jane do you know where in archives

OK. If you look in Archive and Library, click on Case Related Photos and scroll down the first page. You'll see diagrams, pictures of the house, numerous pictures of the kitchen and then your patience will be rewarded with several pictures of bedrooms, INCLUDING ones showing a rifle at the window.

[mike tesko]

no one except' the raid team' would be allowed in that farmhouse until the scene had been made safe Well, you had better get your facts right, before you start having a go at me. Firstly, according to the trial testimony of Detective Inspector Ron Cook. The rifle had remained in position upon Sheila's body, unmoved and untouched by anybody since its alleged first find when firearm officers stormed the farmhouse. Indeed, (unless he lied), Cook testifified that it was 'he' who had first moved the rifle from the body, and Cook himself did not arrive at the scene along with PC Bird until 9.20am. He and the rest of SOCO did not take control of the scene until 10 O' clock. PC Bird did not photograph 'the rifle' leaning against thge bedroom window until about 10.13am. That photograph was photograph No. 23. After that, PC Bird took 8 consecutive photographs showing 'the rifle' from the bedroom window in photograph 23, now upon Sheila Caffells body, in photographs, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33. Cook testified that he moved Sheila's right hand (as per photo's 29 and 30) so that PC Bird could photograph bloodied finger marks on Sheila's nightdress) Cook then said he removed 'the rifle' from Sheila's body (presumably after PC Bird had taken the last of the 8 photographs (33) which shows the rifle 'still' on the body) and he said he 'handed' the rifle to Police Inspector Montgomery to check and make safe, before 'it' was handed back to Cook who stated he then placed the rifle at the main bedroom window before PC Bird photographed the rifle at the window as per photograph 23. So, why would Cook be handing 'the rifle' to Montgomery, for him to check and make safe for the very first time, if as Cook testified to the effect that 'no - one had moved' or 'touched the rifle on the body' before 'he' had? Not only that but PC Bird took photograph 23 which shows the rifle at the bedroom window, before he took photographs 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33, showing the same rifle on Sheila's body. Additionally, if Cook did not deliberately lie and deceive the jury about these matters, then the additional fact that it is documented by the police themselves (elsewhere) that at 8.15am, three police officers, namely, DCI Harris, DCI Gibbons, and PI Montgomery entered the kitchen of the farmhouse, and were held there whilst DCI Harris spoke to ACC Peter Simpson with use of the land line telephone situated in the kitchen, a call which lasted some 15 minutes. So, officers did enter the crime scene before the rifle was checked and made safe by reference to what Cook said during his testimony and cross examination during the trial then and any firearms found were made safe. If Cooks testimony was honest and reliable, then of course, you must be wrong, either that, or you are in agreement that Cook gave dishonest evidence during the trial about the sequence with which 9 key photographs were taken, and lied about the first occasion the rifle was checked and made safe...so idont think dci harris would be giving a running commentary about anything. So DCI Harris used the telephone in the kitchen for 15 minutes, without speaking or saying anything at all to ACC Simpson?about the rifle.what does it matter where it was it does matter where it was, stop acting daft...and if it was moved . are you thick or what? Of course it matters if it 'was moved' from the window onto the body and then photographed. What kind of a person can say what your saying, and not realize the significance or importance of it. For your information, its called 'fabricating evidence'...theres plenty of other evidence sheila did not fire that rifle.  there's sufficient evidence to indicate that she did 'fire the rifle' to kill the other four victims...why would the police fit up bamber. Why did the same police stage Sheila's death scene by bringing the rifle from the box room window plant out on Sheila's body and then take photographs (26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33) which they relied upon to frame Sheila for her own suicide. It was therefore a simple matter of the police using that very same fabricated photographic evidence which they used to frame Sheila, to frame Jeremy by a reliance upon the same fabricated crime scene photographs, aforementioned...because of bumberling dci taff jones it was a closed case four murders and a suicide. DCI Jones did not fabricate Sheila Caffells Death scene in the main bedroom, he was not even present at the scene when 'the rifle' was photographed against the bedroom window (23) at 10.13am, and 'it' was brought to Sheila's body by the police, to stage her death scene. So, if you have got any credible evidence to counter what is being said, post it up... the farm house was cleaned.items burned police must have wanted to burn and destroy any evidence which could potentially incriminate themselves in Sheila's death...and victims cremated case closed. Case not closed, evidence of police corruption still available ready to be used...why than point the finger at bamber and make themselfs look like fools The police did what they did, the facts are starring everyone in the face, unless you are someone who ignores the truth, and pretends that what police did and have done, is not wrong, and is not a collection of acts of corruption... for having been decived by bamber. He didn't deceive anyone, but was a victim, himself...

[sami]

iam sorry you feel i was having a go.i wasnt .let me clear one thing with you have you got a photo of the rifle leaning against the window.taken from outside whf.show me the plenty of evidence you claim shows sheila fired a gun or loaded bullets in that rifle.rubbish.utter tripe.show me the statement that dci harris spoke to some one from that phone .while sheila was unaccounted for.statements please show proof.where that rifle was placed when photoed from inside whf means nothing.

[lookout]

You'll find photo's in the archives including the rifle in the window. Also EP statements.

Why don't you prove that it WASN'T Sheila,but Jeremy who fired that rifle ? 

[sami]

You'll find photo's in the archives including the rifle in the window. Also EP statements.

Why don't you prove that it WASN'T Sheila,but Jeremy who fired that rifle ?

read the forensic report on sheila.it  proves she didnt fire a gun.so what does the rifle near the window which was photoed from inside whf prove

[lookout]

read the forensic report on sheila.it  proves she didnt fire a gun.so what does the rifle near the window which was photoed from inside whf prove

That there were two rifles in use. Much has been said that Neville kept on under his bed,and there was the one in which Jeremy left on the settle in the back-kitchen. There was also AP's rifle which was always kept in the downstairs toilet area. That makes 3 if I'm splitting hairs,though neverthless it was a working farm so there was a store of guns.

Can you account for Sheila's prints being found on the shotgun that AE found in one of the rooms ?

BTW,I'm not interested in what the forensic report said.

[Jane]

That there were two rifles in use. Much has been said that Neville kept on under his bed,and there was the one in which Jeremy left on the settle in the back-kitchen. There was also AP's rifle which was always kept in the downstairs toilet area. That makes 3 if I'm splitting hairs,though neverthless it was a working farm so there was a store of guns.

Can you account for Sheila's prints being found on the shotgun that AE found in one of the rooms ?

BTW,I'm not interested in what the forensic report said.

Much has been made of the fact that two rifles were used but thus far no proof of it has been forthcoming. Nor is there proof that Nevill kept a rifle under his bed. I believe a single print of Sheila's was found on THE rifle but I have no recall of proof of her prints being on A rifle.

BTW, if you're not interested in what the forensic report say, does one presume you to be interested only in rumour?

[sami]

That there were two rifles in use. Much has been said that Neville kept on under his bed,and there was the one in which Jeremy left on the settle in the back-kitchen. There was also AP's rifle which was always kept in the downstairs toilet area. That makes 3 if I'm splitting hairs,though neverthless it was a working farm so there was a store of guns.

Can you account for Sheila's prints being found on the shotgun that AE found in one of the rooms ?

BTW,I'm not interested in what the forensic report said.

the forensic report is fact not fiction.hearsay about nevill keeping rifle under his bed cannot be proved and therefor is hearsay.who tested that shotgun and why.or is that also hearsay.if ap rifle was in the toilet area than nevill would have placed it in the gun cupboard while the twins were staying there. one must never reject the forensic report it was an expert who wrote it .not laymen like us.10 members of the jury believed it

[mike tesko]

iam sorry you feel i was having a go.i wasnt . OK...let me clear one thing with you have you got a photo of the rifle leaning against the window taken from inside the farmhouse, yes, but not one from outside of it. However, latest estimates suggest that there are around 211 photographic images which Essex police and the CPS are refusing to disclose to the present legal team working behind the scenes on Jeremy Bambers behalf, it could well include at least one photograph of the gun resting at that window that was taken from outside....taken from outside whf. ask Essex police if there exists such a photograph amongst the 211 still in their possession...show me the plenty of evidence you claim shows sheila fired a gun marks on the top part of her right hand which can be matched to the design of the breach face and trigger mechanism of the rifle, plus a corresponding mark, or small cut on her index finger of her right hand which was caused through constantly activating the trigger mechanism perhaps as many as 23 times... or loaded bullets in that rifle. bullets had brass casings, it means nothing that lead deposit levels on her hands were low, she obviously wiped her bloodied fingers on her nightdress, and pages of the bible...rubbish. yes, what your saying is rubbish...utter tripe. I agree, what you have said is utter tripe...show me the statement that dci harris spoke to some one from that phone . show me any evidence at all which denies that he made such a call...while sheila was unaccounted for. in order for you to understand how and in what circumstances Sheila's body became unaccounted for after 8.10am and before 8.30am, you need to read the contents of the police radio message logs, which place the bodies of two victims downstairs in the kitchen, and a further three bodies upstairs in the bedroom. Then take the so called official version of events as per the contents of firearm officers witness statements where they claim four bodies were found upstairs in the bedrooms, and only the body of one victim found downstairs in the kitchen. Sheila's body became temporarily unaccounted for in between the changing scenarios, aforementioned. How did her body find its way upstairs into the main bedroom, from its original position downstairs in the kitchen? Nobody claims to have seen head nor hair of Sheila anywhere else in between the kitchen and the bedroom, so it is at 'that' stage that her body was unaccounted for, which coincided with the use of the round finger dial phone in the kitchen by DCI Harris, between 8.15am and 8.30am...statements please show proof. if you can read, all the evidence is posted up everywhere on this forum, you'll know when you come across it, you won't need me to point it out to you...where that rifle was placed when photoed from inside whf means nothing. Oh yes it does - and by those comments of yours we can all see how corrupt you yourself must be, because staging Sheila's death scene and then taking photographs of the rifle on her body, when there had previously been no rifle on the body, or with the body, is known as 'fabricated evidence'...

[sami]

your making the claim of dci harris's call then its up to you to show proof.so your saying cut her finger while pressing the trigger.i doubt a rifle thats cuts peoples finger would be a reject and never be allowed to inter the market by the makes .reputation is everything for a arms maker.she cut her finger but her nails remained perfect while she loaded that rifle.this really is getting very funny.i will answer a few more later beacause an intilligent man like you is very trying.please point me to that statement of dci harris's phone call while sheila was still missing.thanks

[lookout]

the forensic report is fact not fiction.hearsay about nevill keeping rifle under his bed cannot be proved and therefor is hearsay.who tested that shotgun and why.or is that also hearsay.if ap rifle was in the toilet area than nevill would have placed it in the gun cupboard while the twins were staying there. one must never reject the forensic report it was an expert who wrote it .not laymen like us.10 members of the jury believed it

The whole case was built on hearsay so what's new ? " Not laymen like us ",a contradiction in terms when it was 10 laymen ( what do they know ?) who found an innocent man,guilty.

[sami]

The whole case was built on hearsay so what's new ? " Not laymen like us ",a contradiction in terms when it was 10 laymen ( what do they know ?) who found an innocent man,guilty.

i meant they had all the facts from both sides.your wrong about the first sentence. NO HEARSAY EVIDENCE WAS PRESENTED IN COURT.or barbara wilson would have told the court of her conversation with nevill.

[susan]

i meant they had all the facts from both sides.your wrong about the first sentence. NO HEARSAY EVIDENCE WAS PRESENTED IN CO more than me and I have been here for 4 yearsURT.or barbara wilson would have told the court of her conversation with nevill.

Heck sami you must have been following this case for ages as you seem to have lots of knowledge more than me and I have been here for 4 years.

[mike tesko]

read the forensic report on sheila.it  proves she didnt fire a gun. based on the conclusions of that report, it also seems to be saying that no gun was fired in close proximity to the nightdress, so how did she get killed then? The rifle which police brought from the box room window and 'planted it' on her body upon 'its right side' against Sheila's nightdress, had the ejection port, and three venting holes which would surely have been heavily contaminated with propellent, and residue and soot caused during the use of the gun, but miraculously no such propellent, no such residue and no such soot became transferred onto the surface of the nightdress. Additionally, the shooter of 'that' rifle, would have needed to reload at least 13 additional rounds into the ammunition magazine of the rifle, and activate the trigger mechanism. One of the failings in the ballistic report is the 'total absence' of any lead deposit amounts present upon 'the trigger', itself, and 'the trigger mechanism'. It seems inadequate to me, that no - one thought to swab the trigger of the rifle, considering that in all probability at least one of the two fingers used to load ammunition, 'fired' bullets from the rifle by activating the trigger...

The facts are that no lead deposit were found to be present at all on the trigger, so why all the fuss about low levels of lead deposit found upon the hand swabs supposedly taken from Sheila, in the guise of exhibit DRH/33, or DRH/44, or otherwise...so what does the rifle near the window which was photoed from inside whf prove Do I really need to spell it out for you? OK, it means that Sheila had not shot herself on either of the two occasions she was shot, and that somebody else shot her. Well with the rifle seen at the box room window at 7.15am, and then being planted on Sheila's body, and the ballistics saying both shots had been fired from 'it', the only people who could have shot Sheila, were the police themselves, and they did...