Forensic evidence thread links incriminating Bamber, library :

[Adam]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7625.0.html

[Adam]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7506.0.html

[Adam]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5770.0.html

[Adam]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6127.msg271806.html#msg271806

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8611.msg411006/topicseen.html#msg411006

[Adam]

In no order here are the threads currently in the library. Some of the thread discussion branched out into other pieces of incriminating evidence. You will have to read the threads to see.

I have updated it a bit, but have realised the library is only half complete and there are a lot more old & new threads which need to be added over the next week. Apologies.

                                       -------------


No gun shot residue, oil, or blood on Sheila or her nightdress.

Effects of Haloperidol.

Nevill and Sheila being bare footed and in pyjamas.

Moved items around the kitchen window.

The bathroom window.

Bamber's found hacksaw.

Sheila's time limit constraints prior to the police arriving.

40 reasons why Nevill would not phone Bamber at 3am.

30 reasons why Bamber would not phone Julie at 3am.

Conclusion to silencer tests.

A man carrying a woman. (Video).

Bamber doing nothing between 3.10am - 3.36am.

Professor Herbert Leon Mcdonell

Possibility of silencer being wrong due to contamination.

Possibility of silencer being fabricated.

Hair in the silencer.

Sheila using the silencer.

Evidence in court shows 100% silencer was used.

Paint in the silencer.

Items destroyed in 1996.

Minor obstacles for Bamber at the crime scene.

Sheila's blood underneath the bible.

Julie knowing things which were not in the papers.

Nevill's back burns.

Bamber's easy cycle ride.

Chosen execution time. Everyone asleep.

Testing of June's bike.

Crime scene. The twins.

Crime scene. Nevill's fight.

Human blood in the silencer.

Technicians testing the silencer.

Back splatter.

Sheila's legs being pulled after the second shot.

Relatives framing Bamber.

Nevill's horrific injuries.

Crime scene. June.

Crime scene. Sheila.

No evidence linking Sheila to the crime.

June or the twins not waking.

2012 CCRC judgement.

Questions on the bible.

The lockable from outside kitchen window.

Bamber choosing the right weapon.

Who was most likely to get injured in the kitchen fight.

The bible being on top of Sheila's arm.

[David1819]

"Examples of Gish Gallops are commonly found online, in crank "list" articles that claim to show "X hundred reasons for (or against) Y". At the highest levels of verbosity, with dozens upon dozens or even hundreds of minor arguments interlocking, each individual "reason" is — upon closer inspection — likely to consist of a few sentences at best."


"This provides insight into the motives of the Galloper. By using a quantity of arguments as a quality itself, a Gish Gallop tries to create the illusion of authority and weight of evidence. It is effectively style over substance. If brevity and ease of understanding were the aim then they would be better off with a smaller number of points, like "the best five reasons" or "the top ten arguments" as opposed to lists of hundreds. If, on the other hand, the aim was a coherent and thorough argument (as suggested by the word count), then the purpose would be best served by using the thousands of words expended in the Gallop to make a full essay, with each point expanded and elaborated on to ensure it was thoroughly argued."

[Adam]

Maggie can you remove David's post. It is goading and nothing to do with thread topics.

You did tell me you have told David not to keep posting his 'gish gash' rubbish. So it may be appropriate to implement a ban if he is ignoring instructions from moderators.

Thank you.

[David1819]

Maggie can you remove David's post.

You did tell me you have told David not to keep posting his 'gish gash' rubbish. So it may be appropriate to implement a ban if he is ignoring instructions from moderators.

Thank you.

There is nothing wrong with using the term "Gish Gallop"

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

Like it or not, it's exactly how you post on this forum.

[guest2181]

There is nothing wrong with using the term "Gish Gallop"

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

Like it or not, it's exactly how you post on this forum.

I think you're probably both as bad as each other. 

[mike tesko]

In no order here are the threads currently in the library. Some of the thread discussion branched out into other pieces of incriminating evidence. You will have to read the threads to see.

I have updated it a bit, but have realised the library is only half complete and there are a lot more old & new threads which need to be added over the next week. Apologies.

                                       -------------


No gun shot residue, oil, or blood on Sheila or her nightdress. tests were never done for gunshot residue, only levels of lead deposit! No oil levels were taken from any of the recovered spent cartridge cases!
There was much blood found on Sheila's body, in particular on her neck in the region where bloodied fingermarks appeared around the under the chin shot, blood which ran from that wound flowed over these bloodied fingermarks. It was never established whose bloodied fingermarks they belonged to, or for that matter in whose blood the said marks were made! There was also bloody marks on Sheila's right forearm and for that matter on the top part of her right hand! There was also blood on the soles of her feet. As far as her nightdress is concerned, there was evidence of expiated blood spots on the front right hand side of her nightdress, but it was never established whose blood had dripped or splashed there! So, this negates much of your point..

Effects of Haloperidol. her dosage had been halved in recent weeks, to dangerous levels increasing the possibility of her having psychotic episodes!

Nevill and Sheila being bare footed and in pyjamas. the shootings happened in the middle of the night, if both had been fully dressed in their day clothes that might have raised an eyebrow...

Moved items around the kitchen window. Nobody knows at what stage during the previous 24 / 48 hours what got moved or who by?

The bathroom window. What about it?

Bamber's found hacksaw. Jeremy was under surveillance by drugs squad officers and seen using a downstairs window to enter the farmhouse! He never denied entering the farmhouse on that occasion because he did not have a key to let himself in because the relatives had taken control of it! The relatives knew where the spare key was kept in a coal shed and they took it! Relatives also knew that entry could be gained via the aforementioned window using a narrow tool to slip the latch of the sash cord window - the piece of blade may have been used by members of the family and the extended members of the family on previous occasions! Relatives recovered the piece of hacksaw blade because they already knew of its existence and its purpose!

Sheila's time limit constraints prior to the police arriving. irrelevant, she had ample time to shoot and kill the other victims prior to the police entering and finding Neville and herself in the kitchen, with the other three bodies upstairs!

40 reasons why Nevill would not phone Bamber. Nevertheless, but he did!

30 reasons why Bamber would not Julie at 3am. he didn't phone her until 3.30am!

Conclusion to silencer tests. Grave suspicion surrounds the scientific evidence associated with the silencer(s), and the thread protector evidence was concealed, paint found on the end of it from the kitchen aga!!!

A man carrying a woman. (Video).

Bamber doing nothing between 3.10am - 3.36am. he did everything he had to do once Neville's call alerted him to problems at the farm! He has given his explanation, there is nothing suspicious about what he says he did, or any problems with the sequence with which he says he did anything! He said the line suddenly went dead as though Neville had cut him off! He then said he tried ringing Neville back but he kept getting an engaged tone! This would of course be true if by that stage Neville was already or in the process of calling police at 3.26am! He said he tried phoning Witham police station but nobody answered! This was the call he said he had made to the police before he called Julie Mugford! He then phoned Julie at 3.30am, she told him to 'go back to bed' after he told her that there was something wrong at the farm! He then, at 3.36am, phoned the police a second time which was answered by PC West! By that stage the occupants of CA07 (3.35am) and CA05 (3.36am) had already been deployed to the incident as a result of the earlier information provided to police by Neville Bamber!

Professor Herbert Leon Mcdonell His conclusions support the case for police having staged Sheila Caffells death scene with the anshuzt rifle from the first floor box room window, on the main bedroom floor!

Possibility of silencer being wrong due to contamination. the silencer evidence was tainted evidence and should never have been accepted, it had several exhibit references at different stages of the police investigation, a matter not helped because there were two different identical silencers in police and the lab's possession which became merged into one!

Possibility of silencer being fabricated. it was...

Hair in the silencer. Could have been a rabbit hair, a dog hair, or have belonged to one of the relatives who introduced it...

Sheila using the silencer. there's no evidence at all that Sheila used a silencer! In fact, the prosecutions ballistic expert stated that he could not tell if any of the 24 shots had been fired through a silencer or not! This is in stark contrast to what Keith Mallinson stated, he says that there is a difference involving casings of bullets fired in a semi automatic weapon, where the force of backpressure present at different rates, when a round is fired, without a silencer, or with a silencer, which causes microscopic bulging at the base of a spent cartridge that has been fired with a silencer fitted!

Evidence in court shows 100% silencer was used. it does not, the blood flake evidence is controversial and speculative! The paint evidence suspicious in view of paint having been found on the end of a guns barrel by 8 August, and Cook denying he ever took a paint sample (RC/1) and gave it to dS Davidson at the scene that same day!

Paint in the silencer. paint on the end of a guns barrel / paint on the silencer - none of which proves that any paint got onto the silencer at the time Neville was being shot and attacked in the kitchen!
Cops used a metal detector and found the thread protector from the end of the rifles barrel! It had red paint t on it! It was found in the kitchen, cops originally believed it had scratched the kitchen aga, and worked itself loose and fallen off!

Items destroyed in 1996. destroyed against court orders stating they should be preserved...

Minor obstacles for Bamber at the crime scene. there were none, no scientific evidence exists or was found to indicate that there was anyone other than the five victims inside the farmhouse at the time four of them got shot and killed! When Sheila got shot police were already present in the kitchen (7.30am, and upstairs in the main bedroom (9.13am)...

Sheila's blood underneath the bible. the blood in question got deposited on that piece of carpet when police rolled her body into the recovery position upon its right side after 9.13am - her body was rolled onto its back by 10am, and her death s ene staged by the poluce themselves with the rifle they had brought from the box room window as seen by WPc Julia Jeapes, and PC Brown at around and from 7.15am...

Julie knowing things which were not in the papers. she got her information from press reports,
and from the police, in particular, DS 'Stan' Jones...

Nevill's back burns. made by end of gun barrel, quite possibly with thread protector still screwed onto the end of the anshuzt rifles barrel, prior to it striking the kitchen aga, working itself loose, and falling off...

Bamber's easy cycle ride. nobody saw him riding to or from the scene on any cycle...

Chosen execution time. Everyone asleep. No, not everyone a sleep! Neville was wide awake when he phoned Jeremy, and then Neville phoned the police (3.26am),and somebody was still very much wide awake inside the farmhouse at 6.07am, when the status of the phone changed from it being off the hook,
to engaged at that time! Then of course there was the person inside the farmhoyse who placed the anshuzt rifle at the box room window at 7.15am (and try not to overlook how that rifle managed to find its way onto Sheila's body in time for PC Bird to photograph it there by and from 10am, onward! Also, Sheila was obviously still very much alive in the kitchen at 7.30am, 7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, and 7.45am, because after 8.10am, hers became the fourth body to eventually be reported as found upstairs (whereas by 8.10am, there had only been three!

Testing of June's bike. this proves nothing...

Crime scene. The twins. Shot in their sleep by Sheila, with nothing whatsoever to contradict this!

Crime scene. Nevill's fight. Marks on Sheila's right forearm are consistent with her being involved in some sort of a struggle with Neville Bamber who according to the patho!ogist had gouge marks on his own forearm made by the barrel end of the gun minus a silencer!

Human blood in the silencer. and animal blood (AK/1) without which it would not have been possible to claim that the blood was unique to Sheila! In fact,  the other three blood groups (A, EAP BA, and HP2-1) could apply to either June Bamber or Sheila, or be an intimate mixture of June and Neville's bloods (where Neville's 'O' type blood could be masked by June's 'A' blood. Similarly, it could have been a mxture of Neville's and Sheila's blood![. The problem which I see with the way this blood was tested, is that the AK/1 blood group was tested as animal blood, two lots were found inside the silencer, thus casting a huge doubt over the claims relied upon during the trial (1986) and the appeal (2002) g the blood group activity was certainly not unique to Sheila, the courts were deceived in dramatic fashion by the prosecution and its experts!/color]

Technicians testing the silencer. it is now known that at least two different identical looking silencers were tested by these so called technicians and dodgy scenes of crime officers...

Back splatter. less likely to happen involving .22 semi automatic rifles fitted with a silencer where there is a reduction in back pressure because the rate of gases being propelled through 17 baffle plates is restricted and slowed down...

Sheila's legs being pulled after the second shot. her legs were pulled by the police who staged her body!

Relatives framing Bamber. self explanatory, they set out to make him the killer despite Ann Eaton being told by Jones and Clark that Sheila's body was on the bed in the main bedroom when they had visited the main bedroom that morning! Yet, she and the other relatives placed no significance upon learning that by 10 am, cops had moved her body onto the bedroom floor and staged her death scene with the anshuzt rifle which they brought from the box room window! Relatives were sure that Jeremy had not killed his sister or staged his sister's death scene, because cops did it after Jones and Ckark had left the scene to attend Jeremys cottage...

Nevill's horrific injuries. injuries which Sheila could have inflicted, or which were caused by Neville's head falling against the netal rim of the coal hod..

Crime scene. June. according to what Jones and Clark told Ann Eaton within an hour or so of them both visiting the main bedroom scene before keaving to attend Jeremys cottage, they told Ann Eaton that Junes body was laid on top of the bed side by side with Sheila's! Astonishing then, that June's body should end up by the main bedroom door on one side of the bed and Sheila's body on the floor at the other side of the bed...,

Crime scene. Sheila. her body reportedly found in three different places then, (1) downstairs in the kitchen (7.30am, 7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am 7.45am, 8.10am), and (2) on top of the bed by 8.44am to 9.12am, then on the bedroom floor from 9.13am, onward, placed in the recovery position soon after she received the fatal shot beneath the chin (9.13am), and placed upon her back in time for PC Bird (SOCO) to photograph her staged body in possession of the rifle from the box room window!

No evidence linking Sheila to the crime. all the evidence pointing to Sheila being culpable in the deaths of the other four victims who were murdered by her! Her own death not by her own hand, but shot by the police in truly bizarre circumstances!

June or the twins not waking. June not waking until she got shot with non fatal injuries, then getting out of bed and walking around the bed and back to her side of the bed! She ending up on the bed in time for Jones and Clark to view her body there next to Sheila's body before both leaving to attend Jeremy's cottage, where they broke teir necks to tell Ann Eaton that June and Sheila's body were on top of that bed in that bedroom, with a rifle laid on the bed between both bodies, and a bible on Sheila's chest! They were not to know that after they left the scene where they had seen the two bodies on top of the aforementioned bed,
that senior officers had conducted ' Informatica's, had moved the two bodies, one to either side of the bed, june to the right, Sheila to the left, placed rifle on top of Sheila's body after rearranging bible so that it then rested partially upon the upper and outer right arm of Sheila!

2012 CCRC judgement. !!What about it?

Questions on the bible. it got moved from being on top of Sheila's chest when Jones and Clark saw Sheila's body on top of the bed, to resting against Sheila's upper right arm once police moved her body onto the floor on the left hand side of the bed and photographed it there, from 10am, onward..

The lockable from outside kitchen window. Something everybody seems to have known about,but it's only in Jeremys case, it supposedly means anything sinister...

Bamber choosing the right weapon. to do what? He had no choice whatsoever in the choice of the two different guns used to shoot Sheila with, once downstairs in the kitchen, and secondly upstairs on the bedroom floor at 9.13am once cops had moved Sheila's body from on top of the bed (9.12am) onto the bedroom floor at the left hand side of the bed.

Who was most likely to get injured in the kitchen fight. not the person in possession of the gun loaded with bullets! If you buy into the ridiculous argument that Neville had already been shot as many as four times already before he even got downstairs to the kitchen, he would have been badly wounded already!
Anybody in control of aliased gun could easily control and subdue someone who had pyrportedly already been shot four times in the mouth, the jaw his arm and so on and so forth! He would clearly have been incapacitated sufficient for Sheila to manipulate him, and lets not forget Neville would have been falling and banging his head and face here there and everywhere, wouldn't he?

[Adam]

Thanks Mike. It's good that you discuss the case. Other posters trawling threads just to write creepy 'gish gash' posts degrades the forum.

Do you think the 2002 appeal published the wrong information about Sheila's condition ?

[David1819]

Sheila's legs being pulled after the second shot.

Professor Herbert Leon Mcdonell

Sheila's blood underneath the bible.

Here you have spread one point into three points.

What's makes it worse is the fact Herbert Leon McDonnell has recanted his 1993 findings. In 1993 he did not know the police had moved the bible and body between photos. Hence he erroneously concluded it was murder.

In 2011 MacDonell told Channel 4 News.

Dr MacDonell, who testified in the OJ Simpson murder case and was involved in the investigations into the assassinations of US Senator Robert F Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr, told Channel 4 News:

“From the bloodstain patterns the victim’s arms must have been moved. Bloodstains on the floor showed that other objects were also moved. I concluded that it had to have been murder because of the two shots under her chin. (But) Some time later I learned that the pathologists concluded that she could have fired both shots so I now believe it could have been suicide as well.”

So that's three birds dead with one stone.

[lookout]

How about reading the 1991/2 COLP inquiry ? This is if you want the truth,however.

[David1819]

Conclusion to silencer tests.

Conclusions that show it was not used.

34. The evidence of Dr Fowler is set out in a more substantial report.  That report has been peer?reviewed by Dr Dragovich, who is Chief Medical Examiner in Oakland County, Michigan and Dr Marcella Fierro, who is the retired Chief Medical Examiner to the Commonwealth of Virginia.  Both have qualifications as forensic pathologists.  In his careful report, Dr Fowler makes clear that he has reviewed the evidence, which was available in relation to the wounds.  He concluded that the abrasions found were consistent with those of a rifle without a silencer, that there were no distinctive marks on the body which showed that a silencer had been attached, and the residue was consistent with contact wounds. 


Mark Thomas: Now you've looked at the photograph's
Philip Boyce: I have.
Mark Thomas: These are of Sheila's Injuries.
Philip Boyce: I have.
Mark Thomas: Which would you say is the most likely to have occurred?
Philip Boyce: Based on my examination of the wounds in the photographs.And the tests that i have just done. I'm of the opinion that the contact wounds to Sheila's chin. Was contact without the silencer fitted.



This also refutes all the following points below. (Several of them are the same points but worded differently)

Possibility of silencer being wrong due to contamination.

Possibility of silencer being fabricated.

Hair in the silencer.

Sheila using the silencer.

Evidence in court shows 100% silencer was used.

Paint in the silencer.

Human blood in the silencer.

Technicians testing the silencer.

Back splatter.

[Adam]

Here you have spread one point into three points.

What's makes it worse is the fact Herbert Leon McDonnell has recanted his 1993 findings. In 1993 he did not know the police had moved the bible and body between photos. Hence he erroneously concluded it was murder.

In 2011 MacDonell told Channel 4 News.

Dr MacDonell, who testified in the OJ Simpson murder case and was involved in the investigations into the assassinations of US Senator Robert F Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr, told Channel 4 News:

“From the bloodstain patterns the victim’s arms must have been moved. Bloodstains on the floor showed that other objects were also moved. I concluded that it had to have been murder because of the two shots under her chin. (But) Some time later I learned that the pathologists concluded that she could have fired both shots so I now believe it could have been suicide as well.”

So that's three birds dead with one stone.

At least you are discussing the case. Rather than leaving pathetic 'gish gash' posts.

Sheila's legs being pulled after the second was confirmed in 2002 & is in the published appeal. And no it wasn't the police.