Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?

[Caroline]

Well, the evidence shows this is exactly what happened. Your refutation with incredulity is just where the rubber hits the road, you refute what is the only possible explanation because it flows from your keyboard with grace and style, yet it is a simple truism you confront, fact is stranger than fiction.

No it doesn't.

[Samson]

You fail to take into account that some of he twins clothes were soaking too. They are just clothes soaking in water, there is nothing sinister about that at all. You have no idea when the washing was put there and just jump to the conclusion that it was during the early hours of the morning with no evidence to support it and you also have no idea who put the clothes into soak in the first place

Come on Caroline, women do not put menstrual stained knickers in buckets and leave them on the kitchen floor, then go to bed. And women do not leave the tampax applicator in the living room then go to bed.
You were not so confused 4 years ago. What happened to drop you down the rabbit hole?
You sadden me, you and JaneJ.

[lookout]

So you are somehow suggesting my reconstruction is necessarily wrong?

I don't see how.

1. Phone off hook.
2. Sheila with gun on body and neck wounds consistent with self delivery
3. Cartridge cases in found locations.
4. Menstrual blood on knickers in bucket on kitchen floor.
5. Tampon in body, and complement of tampax in lounge.
6. Downward shots to mouth as though shooter on landing and Nevill below on stairs.
7. June shot while clearly asleep.

One of the problems confronting reconstructionists is that people customarily paint with the broad brush, everything is possible, but this is nonsense, one and only one exact sequence occurred.
A reconstruction will make sense of most evidentiary data points, seldom all.

Nevill was most of the way upstairs when turned back by gun fire.
Is this compatible with " never upstairs"? I think it is, but I am interested in what you mean Lookout.

There was no sign nor mention of Neville's day clothes anywhere. I can only assume that when he returned from his nightly ritual of taking the dogs out,having a shower,in the downstairs bathroom,donning the night clothes then having a quiet G&T and a smoke in the lounge,that this is what he did before retiring to bed.Except for that night he didn't get as far as going up the stairs.

When Sheila was at her flat in Maida Vale,it wasn't unusual for her to ring her father in the early hours and then talk to him until dawn broke,and whether,at the time ,her father had been in bed during those times,I don't know,but he'd obviously take the call downstairs so as not to disturb June ( who was a light sleeper )

The night of the tragedy would be no different if Sheila had wanted to talk to her father,except that he was already there and the kitchen was where they both were.

What I want to know was what direction was the gun cupboard in relation to the settle ( monks seat ) which was nearest to the kitchen ?

None of Neville's blood was found in the bedroom,or the stairs. It was all downstairs.

[Caroline]

Come on Caroline, women do not put menstrual stained knickers in buckets and leave them on the kitchen floor, then go to bed. And women do not leave the tampax applicator in the living room then go to bed.You were not so confused 4 years ago. What happened to drop you down the rabbit hole?
You sadden me, you and JaneJ.

That's odd, because you make me laugh! 

At no time when I thought Bamber might be innocent, did I argue that Sheila killed everyone over her stained pants. Four years ago, I also didn't understand the effects of haldoperidol, I do now but I also hadn't had experience of the man himself - I have now.

The applicator you keep referring to was found next to a toy gun, so the likelihood is that the twins found the tube and used it in play. Maybe they saw Uncle Jeremy messing about with the rifle and the silencer and were simply copying him.

[Caroline]

There was no sign nor mention of Neville's day clothes anywhere. I can only assume that when he returned from his nightly ritual of taking the dogs out,having a shower,in the downstairs bathroom,donning the night clothes then having a quiet G&T and a smoke in the lounge,that this is what he did before retiring to bed.Except for that night he didn't get as far as going up the stairs.

When Sheila was at her flat in Maida Vale,it wasn't unusual for her to ring her father in the early hours and then talk to him until dawn broke,and whether,at the time ,her father had been in bed during those times,I don't know,but he'd obviously take the call downstairs so as not to disturb June ( who was a light sleeper )

The night of the tragedy would be no different if Sheila had wanted to talk to her father,except that he was already there and the kitchen was where they both were.

What I want to know was what direction was the gun cupboard in relation to the settle ( monks seat ) which was nearest to the kitchen ?

None of Neville's blood was found in the bedroom,or the stairs. It was all downstairs.

There was blood on the stairs and landing that couldn't be typed however, the bullet cases show that he had to be shot four times upstairs, there aren't enough cases in the kitchen for he to have received all shots there.

[Samson]

There was no sign nor mention of Neville's day clothes anywhere. I can only assume that when he returned from his nightly ritual of taking the dogs out,having a shower,in the downstairs bathroom,donning the night clothes then having a quiet G&T and a smoke in the lounge,that this is what he did before retiring to bed.Except for that night he didn't get as far as going up the stairs.

When Sheila was at her flat in Maida Vale,it wasn't unusual for her to ring her father in the early hours and then talk to him until dawn broke,and whether,at the time ,her father had been in bed during those times,I don't know,but he'd obviously take the call downstairs so as not to disturb June ( who was a light sleeper )

The night of the tragedy would be no different if Sheila had wanted to talk to her father,except that he was already there and the kitchen was where they both were.

What I want to know was what direction was the gun cupboard in relation to the settle ( monks seat ) which was nearest to the kitchen ?

None of Neville's blood was found in the bedroom,or the stairs. It was all downstairs.

It just seems unlikely to me he would have not retired to bed by 3 am as a farmer, and I am looking at all the found evidence. Since he was in pyjamas he clearly had been in bed.
My reconstruction is heavily relying on the onset of Sheila's period, which clearly commenced after she went to bed, or she would have retired with tampon in place, and obeyed protocol in concealing blood from the household. This is plain common sense and universal protocol. There is a link between the massacre and the unconventional blood in the kitchen, mark my words. The fact this is not laboured by the English is a complete mystery to me. Sherlock and Father Brown would spin in their graves in frustration at not being heard on this matter.

[Adam]

You fail to take into account that some of he twins clothes were soaking too. They are just clothes soaking in water, there is nothing sinister about that at all. You have no idea when the washing was put there and just jump to the conclusion that it was during the early hours of the morning with no evidence to support it and you also have no idea who put the clothes into soak in the first place

This is what I mean by visions.

Samson has a vision that -

Sheila had her period at 2pm and used a bucket which had a variety of clothes in. Vision.

Nevill went downstairs in pyjamas and bare footed. After suspecting burglars. Vision.

Nevill then again started telling Sheila about the twins being adopted. At 2pm.  Vision.

Sheila loaded the cartridge into the rifle. Nevill let her. Vision.

Sheila went upstairs with the rifle. Neville let her. Vision.

Nevill rang Bamber. Bamber answered the phone within 15 seconds although sleeping 'like a log'. At the same time Nevill hears upstairs gun shots and only says 11 words to Bamber. Vision.

[Samson]

That's odd, because you make me laugh! 

At no time when I thought Bamber might be innocent, did I argue that Sheila killed everyone over her stained pants. Four years ago, I also didn't understand the effects of haldoperidol, I do now but I also hadn't had experience of the man himself - I have now.

The applicator you keep referring to was found next to a toy gun, so the likelihood is that the twins found the tube and used it in play. Maybe they saw Uncle Jeremy messing about with the rifle and the silencer and were simply copying him.

I theorise that she inserted the tampon in the lounge because she was alone, and the bathroom was remote from the kitchen where she had deposited the knickers.
Yes, I believe the White House murders happened because her period began.

[lookout]

There was blood on the stairs and landing that couldn't be typed however, the bullet cases show that he had to be shot four times upstairs, there aren't enough cases in the kitchen for he to have received all shots there.

I don't believe that those bullet cases should have been upstairs. Because there's so much jiggery-pokery with the case,I tend to disbelieve anything and everything connected to the case altogether.

[Adam]

I theorise that she inserted the tampon in the lounge because she was alone, and the bathroom was remote from the kitchen where she had deposited the knickers.
Yes, I believe the White House murders happened because her period began.

Don't forget Nevill didn't help matters.

Going on about adoption to Sheila at 2pm. Then letting her load the rifle & go upstairs with it.

[Samson]

This is what I mean by visions.

Samson has a vision that -

Sheila had her period at 2pm and used a bucket which had a variety of clothes in. Vision.

Nevill went downstairs in pyjamas and bare footed. After suspecting burglars. Vision.

Nevill then again started telling Sheila about the twins being adopted. At 2pm.  Vision.

Sheila loaded the cartridge into the rifle. Nevill let her. Vision.

Sheila went upstairs with the rifle. Neville let her. Vision.

Nevill rang Bamber. Bamber answered the phone within 15 seconds although sleeping 'like a log'. At the same time Nevill hears upstairs gun shots and only says 11 words to Bamber. Vision.

Adam, I eat from the tin labelled COMMON SENSE.
We do not have visions, we try to construct a narrative from what we see.
You might study the case of Mark Lundy to imagine how the aisle with the tins of common sense was skipped. The case is archly similar, and represents a systemic failure that allows the kidnapping of hard working citizenry. He is still in jail, it may be a dead heat, the release days.

[guest2181]

I theorise that she inserted the tampon in the lounge because she was alone, and the bathroom was remote from the kitchen where she had deposited the knickers.
Yes, I believe the White House murders happened because her period began.

You're just typing the first thing that comes in to your head. 

The bathroom is closer than the living room is to the kitchen.

You would need to walk past the bathroom to get from the kitchen to the living room.

[Samson]

You're just typing the first thing that comes in to your head. 

The bathroom is closer than the living room is to the kitchen.

You would need to walk past the bathroom to get from the kitchen to the living room.

Hartley, the complete tampax is composed of what was in her body and what was in the living room. The knickers in the kitchen are unique. I know this because it is true, and you know this too. You will do a rapid thought experiment to imagine all the young women you have ever known who leave their period blood in the kitchen.
But you won't because you clearly need to toe the party line. The alternative is too difficult for mortal man. I mourn for your lost integrity.

[Caroline]

Hartley, the complete tampax is composed of what was in her body and what was in the living room. The knickers in the kitchen are unique. I know this because it is true, and you know this too. You will do a rapid thought experiment to imagine all the young women you have ever known who leave their period blood in the kitchen.
But you won't because you clearly need to toe the party line. The alternative is too difficult for mortal man. I mourn for your lost integrity.

The applicator has TWO parts, only one was found next to the toy gun, completely devoid of blood staining. Sheila didn't leave period blood in the kitchen, just some stained clothing which could have been left to soak by June. Her knickers were NOT the only clothes left to soak but you keep ignoring that. This shows that it wasn't unusual to soak clothes before washing - not sure about NZ but it's pretty common here!!

[Samson]

I wonder if I am making myself clear.

It is vanishingly unlikely a young woman will be murdered on any given evening.
It is vanishingly unlikely a young woman will leave her menstrual stained knickers in her mother's kitchen then go to bed.

If we can find a connection between these two matters we might resolve a mystery.
I have shown how this can be, but neither defender nor aggressor sees the significance.
Sherlock Holmes surely would, fictional he may be, but he is the schematic sleuth, one who understands.